Subaru Crew Problems & Solutions

ffsteve · August 2001

Nematode,

You say that the ping only occurs before the engine is fully warmed?

Elsewhere someone reported on the number of links if you search for "pinging" at google.com. I tried that and wandered around a bit (skipping over the network Ping sites). But one link caught my eye where the author mentioned making sure the engine coolant was warmed properly before evaluating any fix. Seems the basis of the comment is that the engine management system adjusts the engine to the cold condition differently from the warm - pointing to potential trouble with the various devices that come into play to tell the engine management computer what is going on: Mass Air Flow sensor, Exhaust Gas Recirculation, etc.

Sorry that I can't be more specific, but can't remember the details. You might try the site and browse the responses though. I will revisit the subject this weekend, if I find the link again I will post or copy relevant info for you.

Steve

sibbald · August 2001

You can take the teacher out of the classroom but you can't take the classroom out of ...........

I don't know, a C+ during my days in school was a really good mark ;~)

How would you rate them on a scale of 1 to 10?

Cheers, Tom

armac13 · August 2001

You got me. :-) Reminds me of a Doonesbury cartoon. A dean says "I got a "B" once. Of course in my day we called them "D's"." For economy 9.5, for comfort 8, for performance 6. While I typically don't drive very hard, I like to have a large safety margin. The Toyo's were very predictable, but the limits were average at best. They were probably the worst snow tire I've ever had and even worse on ice.

Ross

p0926 · August 2001

Ross- Are you using new math or something? I thought a C = AVG while on a scale of 1-10 a 5 = AVG. Therefore, your cumulative numerical rating of 7.8 should be at least a B+. Perhaps since you started driving an automatic your left foot isn't the only thing that's not getting enough exercise :-)

-Frank P.

armac13 · August 2001

:-) No Frank, I really can justify my math. While there are a fair number of products that rate a 9 or 10 out of 10, there are very few that rate 0 or 1 out of 10. Either they are never put into production or they do not survive in the market place. The average score for most consumer products is thus considerably above 5 as a result. Additionally one must define average: are you using the mode, the mean or the median? I also would be using a weighted average since I do not consider each of the three areas of equal importance.

Ross

miksmi · August 2001

sibbald · August 2001

Could you put that in words that a C+'er could understand (Ross = brevity = C-).

Although, you know how much I enjoy your ramble!

;-)

Tom

armac13 · August 2001

[white flag held high] would anyone else like to beat up a poor, fat, old psychologist/teacher before I do the honorable thing and die? My experience:
Value very good - moderate price, last long
Comfort good - quiet and smooth
Performance marginal - OK dry & wet, sucks for winter conditions. What me ramble?? ;~)

Ross

cnecox · August 2001

My 97 Subaru developed a bad oil leak. It turned out to be the oil pump seal. This was costly to repair. Is there something I could have done to prevent this?

vincer2 · August 2001

Does anyone know where I can find the values and ranges of OBD II values for any given engine load for my 2000 OB? I'm ordering an rs-232 connector and interface with software that will enable me to plug my laptop into my 2000 OB and record and plot the actual values of the engine management system.

I will need the "spec" ranges to determine if the car is operating within specs. So far I haven't been able to find these searching on the interent.
Vince

subearu · August 2001

Maybe a Subaru shop manual has them. Probably can buy one from subaruparts.com or your dealers' parts area. I doubt it's in the library, but you could check. And, if you happen to know your service techs, maybe they could just get them for you.

I'd be interested to know how it turns out. Keep us posted on your findings.

-Brian

ateixeira · August 2001

Steve mentioned the engine coolant possibly needing to warm up to stop the ping - Redline sells a product called Water Wetter that supposedly transfers heat more effectively when added to the radiator. It may be worth a shot, given it's an $8 fix. You'd have to order online though.

Chris: probably not. Yours is a 97 so you probably weren't looking for that type of problem. Were you running dino or synthetic? What weight? Did you ever clean the engine compartment with any chemicals?

Was it under warranty? It would be unless your miles were high.

The best I could suggest is to use a wholesaler to buy the parts, or even a parts recylcler (read: junk yard), and have a trusted mechanic install them. Or you could do it yourself.

-juice

locke2c · August 2001

Juice,

Coolant temps are LOWERED when using water wetter. Not much really if you use it mixed with antifreeze and water, but a fairly considerable amount if you use only water and water wetter. (Of course that's a higher dose of WW and it's expensive, not to mention you have *very* poor anti-freezing capability and would have to swap it out in cold weather.)

Not sure I agree with the original diagnosis at any rate...

-Colin

ateixeira · August 2001

At operating temps, yes. But wouldn't it warm up more quickly if the heat transfer theory applied? I was strictly thinking in terms of getting the coolant warmed up ASAP.

-juice

paisan · August 2001

Here's my problem...

At high speeds and some slower speed on hot days (85-100 degrees, high humidity) w/AC on, my XT6 is getting at or near overheating temps. All other times it's running w/o a problem. Also w/o the AC it's running hotter than normal, but not at the "H" mark.

I'm thinking it needs a flush and replacement of the coolant. The fans are working on the radiator w/o a problem, and the radiator isn't blocked up.

TIA for the help.

-mike

ateixeira · August 2001

I'd do a full flush, the kind where you hook up a hose and push water until it drains clear.

Then refill with 50/50 coolant and water plus a bottle of Water Wetter beforehand.

Just a thought, but it could be the thermostat.

-juice

FrankMc · August 2001

the opposite problem, it will show less gas (sometimes a lot less gas) than she really has. We reset the trip odometer when we fill up and use it as a "reality check". (I guess that saved us $600)

Frank

paisan · August 2001

I have a feeling the anti-freeze/coolant has been in there for 80K miles and 13 years. I know I haven't changed it since I bought the car. I figure I'll do the T-stat and flush it next week while I'm on vacation

-mike

ffsteve · August 2001

Colin and Juice,

I think the basis of the original article on pinging after warmup, and Nematode's description, was that the pinging went away after the engine was warmed up. This would support bringing the engine to operating temperature as soon as possible. I've not run across Water Wetter before but from your descriptions it would appear to help in the transfer of engine heat to the coolant, and then again in the transfer from the coolant to the radiator - a worthwhile goal in an overheating engine, but perhaps contrary to a complaint of the engine not warming up.

I confess I didn't go back to the original source, but think that there is a possibility that the engine management computer might contribute to pinging by adjusting the ignition timing, fuel/air mixture, or whatever in accordance with bad sensor readings.

I've tried to tune an old carburretted engine and fought pinging and detonation through gasoline grades, timing advance, changed jets in the carb, and even water injection. But I've never tried to out-guess a modern fuel-injected engine. The principles must be the same, only sensors and actuators managed by computers have replaced the simple mechanical linkages of old.

I offer the following for comment:

1. Typically a cold engine is run with a richer fuel/air mixture to keep the engine running without stumbling. Once the engine is brought to operating temperatures, the mixture is leaned to improve power and fuel economy. Remember the function of the choke on carburettors?

2. A fuel/air mixture that is too lean is a cause of pinging and detonation.

3. Typically you might expect an engine to not ping when cold because the richer mixture would help to prevent it, then as the mixture is leaned and the engine warmed the conditions would be more conducive to pinging (all other things being equal).

4. Nematode is reporting the opposite. His engine pings until warmed, at which point he says it goes away completely. If nothing else, Nematode should do what he can to warm his engine as soon as possible to avoid the pinging.

5. The fact that the pinging goes away when warmed up says that his engine computer is doing all the right things at that point. But the question is, why is it doing the wrong things while the engine is cold?

I'm sure there are a number of possibilities. I say that one of the sensors is reporting bad data.

Regards,
Steve

mrdetailer · August 2001

If it's gone that long you should consider taking it into a radiator specialty shop. They take it out and soak it in a cleaner to completely clean out the sediment on the inside of radiator.

I think Subie radiators are too small, and drain and replace the anti freeze every year.

If it's gone that long, it would also be a good time to change the thermostat at the same time. They are relatively inexpensive.

paisan · August 2001

The plan is to do a flush + thermostat on it, while on vacation next week. If I'm gonna take the radiator out, I'll just replace the whole thing. I don't think it's that bad yet though.

-mike

originalbitman · August 2001

I think this site has been posted here before but if not here goes. Lot's of interesting stuff and even a few sections on Soobs:

http://www.parttrackers.com/library/1/

bit

ateixeira · August 2001

That's really pretty cool. Too bad most of it is for older models (mostly Loyale). I like this quote: "This kind of durability breeds rabid loyalty among owners."

Interesting tid bit about the XT6's power steering mechanism, BTW.

-juice

originalbitman · August 2001

There are some interesting topics outside the (older) Subaru stuff too. Topics that get frequent mention here are: clutches, ATF flushing, and filters.

bit

ramon · August 2001

the squeel has disappeared over the last coupla days! Wat's up with this?! I'm going to the dealer today. So how?

kens · August 2001

Okay, here's how it works. Dealers get paid for service visits (including warranty items). They install a secret remote controlled device that causes a variety of symptoms in our vehicles during the delivery phase. When things get slow in the shop, they activate the device and force a frustrated customer to book an appointment. Once they know you're coming in, they shut the device off and get to write the infamous line "Could not replicate at this time". ;-)

Ken

ateixeira · August 2001

That's cool. Just ask the dealer to register a "customer says" complaint so that there is a log of the history of braking symptoms, in case something creeps up later on.

-juice

nygreg · August 2001

My beloved daughter decided to try gymnastics on the hood of my Winestone OB (3 mos.old!). Scratches, scratches, scratches. Medium depth, but definitely noticeable - especially for me (OCD). I tried rubbing compound on one area and it seemed to dull the finish. I plan on having a body shop look at it. Any suggestions!! Suggestions on punishment are also welcome.

Greg

P.S. No dents in the hood. Pretty suprised considering she is 7 years old.

originalbitman · August 2001

Rubbing compound will dull the clear coat. The best result (OCD speaking) would be to repaint the hood. Is Winestone a metalic color? If not touch up might work or you might luck out and get it buffed out. I scratched the hood on my brand new 1986 Mustang GT while removing the stupid matte black hood decal. Freaked me out as the scratches looked bad. Took it to a detail shop and they spent a few hours buffing it out. Turned out great!.

You could also call your dealer and ask who the use for scratch repair. There are lots of people like Dent Pro who also do scratches on site (your driveway) and CAN do a good job. But like everything a referral is important. Some use an airbrush but even then it is tough to get the clear coat to blend. Paisan says he has seen it done. Good luck.

bit - 2001 GT Wagon

ateixeira · August 2001

For punishment: do not open the rear moonroof for a month. ;-)

-juice

kens · August 2001

Greg,

When using rubbing compound, you need to follow up with a much more fine cut product like a glaze. Rubbing compounds are designed to cut through layers, not polish them. Try getting a bottle of glaze 3M Perfect It or Imperial Hand Glaze from a local auto store and see if it brings out the gloss. It's a small investment compared to paying for a hood repaint.

Ken

brekke · August 2001

I am not sure if this will help you, but I had scratched the entire side of my 1-month-old car driving too close to overgrown branches.

After inspecting the visible damage and resisting the urge to curl into a fetal position on my lawn, I used a few drops of Finish Prep non-abrasive cleaner (from finishfirstpolish.com) and the scratches disappeared! Like magic, I tell you! (I have not tried any other products)

These were light scraches tho, but noticeable.

ateixeira · August 2001

My wife had a deep scratch on the roof of her old car, and Meguiar's paste wax would make it disappear. The catch was it would gradually return, so I knew when it needed a fresh coat of wax!

-juice

nygreg · August 2001

on your thoughts. As I look at it now, it is hard to tell unless you look close. I will bring it by a body shop to see what it would take to buff it out. Not bad enough to repaint. Juice - wish I had the moonroof not to open.

Greg

wc44 · August 2001

Here's a challenge for you knowledgeable Subaru gurus. I've had an '81, '83, '85 and '88 GL 4X4 wagons, all standard trans, and loved every one of them. I especially liked the manual 2 speed transfer case, which gave me 10 forward gears in four wheel drive. I traded in the '88 with some misgivings because everything is now electrical, the windows, the AWD, etc. but I was impressed with the reliability of the entire machines. So I took the plunge last week and got a 2001 Outback. Took great care in breaking it in well, changed the oil after 1000 km, got really impressed with how well the AWD handled on the twisty roads, etc. So Tuesday evening as I'm readying for a trip in my work truck (a Tacoma), I parked the Outback at the back of my property to keep it out of the sun and dust (I'm having some construction done) and, not being used to power windows, shut the motor off before raising the windows. When I turned the ignition back on, there was no set of warning lights and no power windows. I tried to start the car, the motor turns over but does not fire. I tried to start it a few more times then it got dark so I went in and hoped that it was some weird quirk that would be gone in the morning. Read the manual about fuses and in the morning, checked the 15A ignition fuse - it was good. I then phoned my dealer (they are 500 km away) but the technician didn't have any good ideas other than check all the fuses. I checked a few, they were good and everything except the lights and the fan motor still work. On a real whim, I decided to swap the 15A fuse with the spare provided and tried it again and it worked. I put the windows up right away and then noticed the Check Engine light flashing, so I shut the motor off. When I tried to start it again, the same thing had happened - no ignition, no dashboard lights, no power windows, no lights. I had to go to work and got back today with some new fuses, tried to start the car, wouldn't go, swapped the fuse out, still wouldn't start. So here I am with a brand new car that won't start! I've wiggled a few wires under the dash but have not done anything serious yet. However, it's not going to be easy to get the car out of there or to have it towed back to the dealer. It would be better if I could at least get it started. Any of you respected participants have any ideas? This is definitely a weird one. Thanks in advance.

paisan · August 2001

Have the dealer come and flatbed the car back to the dealer. You don't want to be driving the car 500KMs if there is something wrong with it. I'd guess a bad wiring harness somewhere.

-mike

pattim3 · August 2001

I agree with Mike. It sounds like something more serious than fuses. Since you have towing under warranty, it will be the tow company that has to figure out how to get it out from where you parked it. You have enough agg. because of the problem - turn it over to the dealer -

Patti

hypov · August 2001

The symptom you'd described sounded similar to what happened with my '98 OB after the alternator was swapped (ala recall). I had Key in Ignition Alert, Parking Lights, and Hazard Lights available only. Everything else just dead. A quick check with a test light traced the problem to the "Fusible Link". This is the Black Wire located in the engine compartment fuse box. In my case, that wire snapped (unrelated to alternator replacement - may had a fault all along).

ateixeira · August 2001

A lot of times fuses burn out but you can't tell. A hairline crack is not always visible.

Nonetheless, I agree it's a more serious problem that the dealer should look at. Maybe a short circuit somewhere.

-juice

jimmyp1 · August 2001

I had the fusible link go in my 1994 Legacy after going through a carwash. My understanding is there are actually two fusible links, one in the underhood fuse box, and one even lower in the engine compartment (which was the one that blew in my car), according to the dealer. Maybe he was trying to use that as an excuse for the $300.00 bill. Same symtoms you are describing, it would turn over, but never go. I think I had dash lights though, which actually might lend some credence to the "two" or more fusible links scenario. Paisan, will email you later today.

Jim

cnecox · August 2001

I had to have an oil pump seal replaced on my 97 Legacy. This seems like an unusual problem, and it was rather expensive. I was wondering if this is a problem other people have had. If the seals are defective, then seem like there should be a recall.

ateixeira · August 2001

First I've heard of any oil pump problems. Sounds rare to me.

-juice

paisan · August 2001

XT6s and XTs are known for bad oil pump seal problems. I just add an extra 1/2Q of oil to mine.

-mike

cptplt · August 2001

apparently there is a problem with the gasket material, I've had two replaced on one of my 92s, my mechanic says its something he sees a fair amount of with Legacys of that age but Subaru changed the material in later models.

mikezak · August 2001

Hi gang. I've been away for awhile (computer was down, and just got a new one). Since there is not a way to do a really 'search' method on these Edmonds sites, I thought I would just ask.

Has the morning brake squeal issue been resolved?

Patti (SOA) earlier stated that she thought a fix would be published to the dealers sometime in Aug. I would like some confirmation before I call the dealer.

Thanks.

paisan · August 2001

tap your brakes a few times when leaving your driveway, should clear it right up

-mike

reblack_jr · August 2001

After spending several days on the roads in the Midwest last week in rain storms I developed a leak inside my 01 Limited Outback. A drip through occurred from the drivers light above the center console (the one with two map lights and switches) I have had the 01' since late July 00' and not noticed the leak before. The only way I see that water could have come in is through a faulty seal of the front moon roof gasket since the roof was closed. There are three courses of action: 1) do nothing, 2) let the dealer fix it and possibly mess something else up or 3) repair it myself. I really do not like options 1) or 3). Anyone else had this problem? Is there a simple self repair with some sealant? I wonder about this and the brown rust spots referred to earlier on the Edmunds site. If I do not fix it perhaps I will get "Rusty" too (Is this only an OCD problem or a real concern?).

armac13 · August 2001

#2 is the only viable option as far as I can see. A leak if that sort could well cause rust and/or electrical problems in the future. Don't try any repairs on your own. If the dealer messes up you are still fully covered until it is done properly. They may even give you a new car. :~)

Ross

paisan · August 2001

First, then #3. Chances are your dealership will mess it up. I'd live with it and see if there are any future leaks. 1x only leaks are not a problem it's recurring ones that are.

-mike

originalbitman · August 2001

I would bet it is not the moonroof. It could be the attachment point of the roof rails. Biggest bummer is to have the dealer fix it they will need to pull the headliner and that is a 6 hour job and involves removal of lots of trim.

bit

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