Subaru Crew Problems & Solutions

fibber2 · November 2001

One of the first things I did after reading your post on rotor warpage was to get out the torque wrench and check the lug nuts. Mine were actually a bit loose. I put them to about 70 ft-lbs. and added the factory wheel locks. IIRC the spec is about 58 to 75.

Steve

ateixeira · November 2001

I have found that just about any bolt I've removed was grossly over-tightened, so I agree, they do need torque wrenches.

-juice

arlo47 · November 2001

What does this sound like to you? Oil pump and oil seals replaced at 38,000 miles, valve cover at about 57,000 miles, both on warranty. Now -- at 71,000 miles -- more oil leaks and the dealer says I have to replace the valve cover and re-do all the engine seals. But there's no more warranty and the cost is to be well over $1,000. This car has been well-maintained and regularly serviced. Subaru corporate says they won't take responsibility. Any thoughts or comments appreciated. Thank you.

arlo47
Montclair, NJ

locke2c · November 2001

I can't imaging replacing the entire valve cover, although it isn't much. At most I'd replace the gasket, which is supposed to be NON-consumable. (i.e. reusable, it's a round--not flat--rubber gasket that is press-fit into the valve cover.)

If you install the valve cover with incorrect torque, especially uneven torque on the valve cover bolts, it will leak at some point. Been there myself in fact! ;-) The valve covers do not take much torque at all.

If the leak started there, it's easy to imagine it running forward and soaking the timing cover gasket, which would have to be replaced. Still don't know about that "well over $1,000"... seems like a very high quote, although I do a large percentage of work myself.

I'd get a second opinion, preferably from another Subaru dealer since they will have a factory service manual with the proper torque values and an independent probably will not.

-Colin

ateixeira · November 2001

Yeah, and the pattern is kind of tricky. I believe you apply a certain amount of torque and follow a specific pattern, then go around a 2nd time and apply more torque, also in a pattern.

In other words, they don't just bolt the sucker on.

-juice

locke2c · November 2001

Actually that's the cylinder head bolts, which do have a very complicated installation and removal process. The valve covers are much simpler, but the torque is so low (like 10-15lb/ft for SOHC) that it's really easy to overtorque them, which squishes/misaligns/displaces the valve cover gasket since it's somewhat round.

-Colin

paisan · November 2001

For all the engine seals etc. Pre '97 subies are known for bad seals. Those of us with older ones have a running joke.

"Check the gas and add oil, please" or

"I don't change the oil, I just keep adding it"

-mike

bluesubie · November 2001

For major service (15k, 30k, etc.) North Jersey and parts of Central Jersey are $100-$125 higher than where I go now (Flemington).

If I were in your shoes, I would tell the dealer that you would like to meet with the District Service Manager. I've met the north Jersey manager and he's a great guy. If your dealers tries to give you any hassle (my former one did), call SoA and ask them to set up the appointment for you. Also get a case number. Hope you're not going to Lynnes because I've heard "less than good" things about them.

Dennis

paisan · November 2001

will buy a lot of oil

Unless it's pouring out.

-mike

arlo47 · November 2001

Alas, Lynnes is my dealer and they did all the previous work I mentioned. Supposedly they are going to make me some sort of "deal" -- what exactly remains to be seen, it will be faxed to me. Is there another dealer in Bergen or Essex counties you would recommend? I did contact SofA and have a case number, but they said they are taking no responsibility because the car is out of warranty. How could I still get to the District Manager? Thanks for the help.

c_hunter · November 2001

If you're gauging torque while removing a nut/bolt, the wrench will always read higher than the actual tightening torque at first. I don't think you can accurately measure torque when first loosening a bolt or nut, because of the high level of static friction in the threads. Same reason you cannot accurately re-torque an already tightened nut/bolt. You really have to get past the initial "sticking" for a torque wrench to be accurate.

Craig

subearu · November 2001

so what is the 'proper' method for re-torqueing lug nuts?

I've always loosened them a bit and then tightened/torqued, only one at a time. Is it better to loosen the lug fully?

-Brian

ffsteve · November 2001

"I don't change the oil, I just keep adding it"

Loved your reference, but it didn't originate with old Subarus. I've used it for many years when talking about my Corvair!

steve

paisan · November 2001

Both are flat sixes

hee hee

My uncle has 2 corvairs.

-mike

c_hunter · November 2001

I don't know the proper way to re-torque premounted wheels, as I have only ever torqued lugs from scratch (when the wheel is off first). In this case, I usually snug up the lugs with the lug wrench first, and then go around in the star pattern with my torque wrench for the final tightening.

I think re-torqueing would only be a problem if the initial turn (where the sticking-friction is high) exceeded the desired torque setting. If the wrench can get past this point and then creep up to the desired torque, I think you're OK.

By the way, I'm basing this info on the safety procedures we have at work for torqueing nuts and bolts. I think it's correct in general, but it may be that there are different rules for lugs.

Craig

bluesubie · November 2001

Call the dealer and they will set up the appointment with the District Service Manager. He makes rounds of all the dealers in his area and usually hits all of them at least once a month. They will be able to find out when he's there next. You just have to work your schedule around his. When you meet him, he will have studied your case. Then you just go over the details with him.

If they give you a hard time trying to set up a meeting, just call SoA and tell them. They'll set it up as a last resort.

I had always heard good things about Liberty Subaru in Oradell. Someone recently posted on this board that they were having problems there. I still think they have about the best reputation in that area though.
You could also try i-club.com. There's a Dealer Forum and also a Tri-State Area Forum. You could search and/or post in those forums for N. Jersey dealer info.

Dennis

fibber2 · November 2001

I have a question related to a driving technique I have used for snow and ice for 25 years. I spent 4 years along the Canadian boarder in the '70's and learned some things from a rally driver friend. Basically it entails using the hand operated parking brake to make the rear end step out abruptly. It is ideal for making a tight radius turn under conditions when the normal vehicle tendency would be to understeer and plow ahead. A turn of the wheel accompanied by a controlled pull on the rear brakes (with light throttle to make the fronts track where you point them) can make a car corner in powdered snow better than on dry pavement. While it works best on FWD, I used a modified version of it on my old RWD Datsun. It has saved my butt several times on nasty back country roads, but you had best practice it first in a parking lot before you try it for real!

My question is whether this can be done on an OB (non VDC) without damaging the center diff? This would force a substantial rotational speed difference between front and rear for a short duration. Any thoughts from the mechanically inclined?

Steve

locke2c · November 2001

while I seriously doubt subaru of america would advocate this for liability reasons, there should be NO problem with this manuever as long as you're in slippery conditions.

if you have a manual tranny the handbrake slide also works better if you depress the clutch.

-Colin

fibber2 · November 2001

For clarification it is an H4 automatic

Steve

armac13 · November 2001

I learned the same technique back in the '60s. I tried it in my Forester last winter and it worked quite well. As Colin said I would use it only in very slippery conditions. Enjoy, I did.

Ross

jfl · November 2001

Many posts have mentioned the 1/4" diameter difference between tires on AWD cars. I cannot find this mentioned in the Subaru owner's manual. Isn't the differential supposed to handle such differences?

I measured the diameters of my spare and regular tires and it looks like a 1/2" difference in diameter between the two. Does that mean using the spare damages the car????

Is there a solid technical explanation for the 1/4" comments?

Thanks

paisan · November 2001

here is basically the explaination as I know it. It's ok to drive with an odd sized tire (such as the spare) for a short period. Most spares are only good for 50 miles @ <50mph. On AT subies you are supposed to put the FWD fuse in to turn off AWD when doing this. On MTs it's not possible to do it. For the short term there is no damage that will occur.

However in the long term, by having a different diameter tire, you are constantly sending a signal to the AWD syatem (either AT or MT) that that particular tire is slipping because that 1/2 shaft or that ABS sensor will be spinning at a faster rate than the other 1/2 shafts. Long term effects of this can be devistating on the AWD system and lead to a diminished life.

On my Trooper I have an actual torque split guage on my dash, and when I had put on a tire that was 1/2" smaller than the other 3 (due to wear on it) I immediately noticed that the AWD system's torque was constantly going whacky, I also had problems shifting it from 4wd Lo to AWD as well. I thought that it was a problem with my AWD system and brought it to the dealer. After much research they measured the tires and found one to be different than the others. I hadn't told them I put on a tire that was "odd" but as soon as the put my spare on which had similar wear as the tires on there, probelm solved. The Trooper AWD system is similar to the AT version of the subie one, except that it puts 85% power to the rear and 15% as a std split with up to a 50/50 split overall.

I used to be of the camp of "how could such a small difference in tire sizes have that much effect?" But after that situation I've learned how technical new cars and the AWD systems are in particular.

-mike

c_hunter · November 2001

Paisan is correct that it is the circumference which needs to be within 1/4" (I had also mistakenly thought they said diameter). Here is a link to a Subaru web page which mentions the spec:

http://www.subaru.com/home/faqs/faq_tech.html#cookies

The new tire I put on my Outback (5-spd) is 1/8" greater in diameter, based on measuring the tread depth (assumes all else is equal among tires). This works out to pi/8 ~ 3/8" greater circumference, which is outside the 1/4" spec. The car runs fine, but I am thinking I should go and get three more new tires now . . . . .

Craig

paisan · November 2001

Craig don't use that. I had the same tires, (Make, model, tread, size, etc) One was an OEM one, the other was one that was made earlier and no OEM. Their tread depts were aprox the same. I believe you need to jack up the car, and use a string to measure the actual circumference.

-mike

jfl · November 2001

Craig & Mike,
Thanks for the reply and especially the link. I'm surprised that this isn't in the owner's manual.
Jim

fibber2 · November 2001

Colin & Ross,

Thanks for the reply. The last thing I want to do is rip the center diff apart on my nice new car! After giving it some thought, I think keeping my foot off the gas would be better for the car (less applied torque to the mechanicals) until the brake is released.

Steve

locke2c · November 2001

changed the oil & filter, cleaned the airfilter (AMSOil), and the big thing... flushed the heck out of the coolant system and converted to DexCool antifreeze.

I'm set for now until it's time to change tires!

-Colin

ateixeira · November 2001

Did you run a hose into it and flush it out? You need a kit to do that properly, right?

I rotated the tires this weekend, but found an oil leak on the 626. :-( Haven't traced it yet.

-juice

kens · November 2001

That reminds me, I need to clean out my Amsoil filter too. I found it's a lot easier if you pre-heat the oil before applying it to the filter.

Colin -- do you run dedicated winter tires?

Ken

ateixeira · November 2001

Out of curiosity, how do you clean them? Did you get a spray cleaner with the oil in a kit?

I clean foam air fitlers for lawn mowers and stuff like that with a solvent, but it's messy and you need time for it to dry.

Here are the tire rotation photos I promised. OCD Club Members will get a kick out of the waxed wheels. You gotta admit they look good for 14k miles, though.

-juice

locke2c · November 2001

let's see if this works. wouldn't let me reply earlier! (actually the "post my message" button worked, but it reloaded the forum without my reply... fortunately I saved it)
____

I drained the radiator on level ground and jacked up the rear-end to allow coolant to pour from the engine block.

Next I flushed the radiator thoroughly with the garden hose.

Then I closed everything up and raised the front of the car 6" with the rear on the ground and began adding coolant... when the radiator was full I'd put in only 3-3.5 quarts of dexcool and no distilled water, so I started thinking that I'd failed to purge all the old stuff from the block. (as some of you know, dexcool is not compatible with standard antifreeze.)

...but then it began burping and chugging and after about 10 minutes, I was able to add a total of 4 quarts of dexcool and 2 quarts of distilled water, versus a quoted coolant capacity of 6.2 quarts so I'm pretty comfortable with that. I cleaned and filled the overflow tank and called it a day.

Expected question: why elevate the front while refilling coolant? Answer: the EJ series is fairly prone to air bubbles in the coolant due to its design and horizontal layout. If you've got the front of the car elevated, bubbles should rise to the radiator cap more easily. Left untended, large bubbles in the coolant system can provoke bouts of overheating, especially during hard use.

-Colin

btw Juice, I need to rotate my tires and adjust my camberplates (never bothered to after autocrossing!). I'll post pics of the insides of the fronts, not pretty. oh well, wanted to replace those tires this Spring anyway, now I've got justification hehe.

ateixeira · November 2001

Sounds like fun.

In my case (simple drain and refill), the only chugging and burping was done by me, after a few cold ones!

I do check the coolant level after the next few drives, though.

-juice

locke2c · November 2001

I clean mine with dish soap and water in the kitchen sink. I then let it dry for a while, and then oil it with the same oil I use for foam air filters on dirtbikes, the difference being that the car's AMSOil filter gets a whole bunch less. (with the dirtbikes, you pour it into a ziplock bag and squeeze it around which coats it very liberally. WAY too much for our use.)

Ken, yep I've got dedicated winter tires on 15" steelies. Ugly as sin even with 'decent' wheel covers, and the snows are nowhere near fun on dry tarmac... but they're brutally effective when there is snow & ice on the ground.

-Colin

lakepop · November 2001

Juice..check the oil sending unit(firewall side of engine)could be the leak and the intermittent oil pressure light.

joseph50 · November 2001

Ken,
You mentioned you use Z-cables on the front tires.
(You are correct, the Forester manual says only on the front, though SCC who makes the cables recommends all around.) Question for you and Subaru: Does not putting them only on the front tires transgress the "quarter-inch circumference rule"?

paisan · November 2001

I did a flush on the XT6 and a t-stat this summer. Just ran a hose through til clear water was pouring out of the top of the engine

Filled with anti-freeze and water, and checked it after a few drives. The colder t-stat works great even in cold weather.

-mike

paisan · November 2001

is only applicable on dry pavement. If you have chains/cords on the tires, you shouldn't be driving on dry pavement. You can put different circumference tires on w/o a problem on slippery stuff cause there won't be any binding.

-mike

ateixeira · November 2001

Thanks, will check around the fire wall. It's a mess so it may be hard to trace it. I just can't believe no oil spilled on our driveway.

Recycle that coolant if you can, guys. That stuff is deadly to dogs and cats attracted by the sweet smell.

-juice

outback165 · November 2001

Does anyone know of any reason why directional tires can't be used on Subarus? Does anyone remember whether directional tires were stock on the SVX? Trying to confirm or throw out the thing about the service bulletin that Craig heard about on the OB board.

Also, is it worth waxing the stock wheels that came with my '01 OB, or does it have to be painted wheels?

Thanks, all.

kens · November 2001

juice -- Yep, I wash my Amsoil filter in a bucket of dish detergent and then let it dry out before applying the oil. I purchased a small bottle of oil Amsoil makes for the filter. It's a purplish oil that's quite tacky when cold (hence warming it up makes it easy to apply). I learned the hard way not to over oil. There was a small pool of oil at the bottom of my air box the last time I tried it.

Joseph -- SCC probably recommends getting cables for all 4 tires since it would double sales!

Mike already answered your question -- you should only have cables on when there is snow in the ground. The 1/4" rule doesn't really come in to play since the cables dig into the snow. Also, you're not supposed to drive over 30mph with them on anyway...

Pete -- I can't think of any reason why you can't use directional tires on a Subaru. The only limitation you have with directional tires is the rotation pattern. But, Subaru recommends a front-to-back pattern anyway for all tires.

Ken

hammersley · November 2001

Pete: I use directional snow tires without a problem. Can't imagine why you couldn't.

Foam filters wash up just fine with detergent & warm water in the laundry sink... just make sure to get all the mess cleaned up out of the sink before your wife discovers it! If filter-brand-specific oil isn't used, will regular ol' Castrol work?

Cheers!
Paul
(and how 'bout them Diamondbacks! woohoo!)

mrk610 · November 2001

Colin I read some were that dex cool is bad and not to be used untill they reformulate. Ill try to find site and post it here. Little bit from site GM stopped using it because it clogged up the trans cool lines and overheated the auto trans on several of there models . Also clogged up small cooling channels in some engines ,mostly 4 cylinder engines . They only had the problems on there 4 cylinders .

mike k

paisan · November 2001

I'm not sure why they say that. I'm sure they will be just fine. The SVX did in fact and does require directional tires on it.

-mike

outback165 · November 2001

Thanks everyone for your feedback. I'm going in early Wed AM for 4 new RE950s on my '01 OB. Can't wait for the next rain. I wish I had 'em for Michelle!

-Pete

joseph50 · November 2001

Thanks. Good to have you around.

locke2c · November 2001

sorry, that sounded like frankenstein-speak. ;-)

mike k, it sounds as if you have heard of problems like this:
click me

Couldn't quickly find better articles, but basically this is saying what is in fact printed on every single container of dexcool antifreeze I've ever seen, and warned against in the owner's manual of every car that's ever come with dexcool standard. And that is-- NEVER mix dexcool (nitrited organic acid- orange) coolant with standard ethylene glycol coolant (green). They form a solid.

Thus the reason I undertook a conversion to dexcool and thoroughly purged my cooling system of the old stuff. If anything, I have some tap water instead of a straight 75% dexcool 25% distilled mix, due to purging with my garden hose.

Dexcool in fact is NOT bad and GM, Ford, DCX (and others) are NOT pulling it, in fact they are using it in more and more cars. A 75% dexcool 25% distilled water mix gives a freeze rating of -86F and boiling of 276F which is well beyond what an ethylene glycol coolant could offer.

-Colin

lark6 · November 2001

I had the coolant flushed at the 30K service last month and I've been getting whiffs of coolant smell in the cabin intermittently since. I cannot find any leaks in the hoses or on the ground beneath the car; in fact the coolant reservoir looks a little overfull, if anything. What's the likelihood of a heater core leak or, dare I say it, a leaky head gasket? I had a heater core go bad on my old VW Jetta and it wasn't pleasant. I've read some things about leaky Subaru head gaskets and their disastrous consequences and I'm a little paranoid. We're talking about an EJ25 SOHC (Phase II block) here, with 31.5K on the clock.

Thoughts?

Ed

locke2c · November 2001

Ed, you are exactly describing what often occurs when you have air bubbles in the cooling system.

Here's a recent thread about it from the iClub, should be educational:
click me

If you search more on the iClub you can find more posts about how to prevent and remove air from the cooling system. See, the iClub isn't complete crap. ;-) You do have to sift quite a lot to find things of use though.

-Colin

lark6 · November 2001

When did I ever say the i-club was complete crap? ;-) I post there a lot. Since last-gen Impreza modifications can work on Foresters too, I find it informative. Learn a lot about the WRC there as well.

Thanks, Colin, I appreciate the link. Weeeeeeeeeeee! (i-club humor)

Ed

edit: D****t, that's not cool. A blown head gasket on a < 2 year old car with 31K miles? I want to have SoA investigate this. This could put a real sour taste in my mouth - more sour than the bad rear wheel bearings. ):-(

pattim3 · November 2001

We haven't had any complaints from people using the z-cables in the front only. The advise you received here is good. Only use them in snow - and when there's plenty of it (I can't wait---I want snow!!)

Patti

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