Subaru Crew Problems & Solutions

cptplt · September 2002

the 3K interval is an oil company scam. look at the German makes and even GM which use oil change indicators in nearly all their new cars to tell you when to change oil. While this may only provide a "minimum" change interval, using data to show how the engine is running makes far more sense than deciding on an arbitrary mileage. Everyone I know who has one of those inidcators never see it light up for at least 5-6 K minimum and many Mercs don't for almost 10K!
the same engine in a Euro market car will have a factory recommended change interval twice that of the US. go figure. the 3K interval can't have anything to do with what is really technically needed!
the only reason I see to ever change at 3K is if you get someone to look under the car to check for other things going wrong you may not have the inclination to do yourself. I can certainly vouch that several cars I have had may well not have lasted as long as they did as I would have missed torn CV joints and minor oil leaks, leaking water pumps etc etc till it was too late but because I had taken them in for an oil change they were noticed early. the actual change of the oil at 3-4K had nothing to do with it though!
you should change at least every 6 months though (even the manufacturers who say go by the change interval indicator say never less than annually) as the various additives to the oil degrade with time.
On my Subes and my wifes Chevy I usually change about 5K or whenever the change oil light comes on, which has never been less than 6K in her Ventureand once was still not lighting by 9K but 6 months were up so it got changed. I know lots of people with early/mid 90s BMWs and Mercs who change 7-10K and have no problems and it isn't just because they may be "better engineered", its because 3K is nothing more than propaganda by oil companies and oil change places!
yes it may only be only 20 bucks for piece of mind but its a heck of a lot of oil used in total by the driving public and quite honestly my 4 months in the Gulf 10 years ago wasn't exactly something I would like to see others have to go through. though it seems history will shortly repeat itself! some things are worth fighting for but BP Amoco and Jiffy Lube isn't it!

locke2c · September 2002

um, as an owner of one of those bimmers with long change intervals perhaps I should say something.

1. it doesn't have a "normal" oil capacity. my 3.0L inline six uses 7 quarts of oil.

2. those long drains are ONLY possible with full synthetics. the lights will tag through quickly with mineral oil.

3. oil temp is critical for oil quality. lots of very short trips contaminate the oil because it never reaches a self-cleaning temperature. a rule of thumb for this is 5 minutes after the water temperature gauge reaches normal temp, since few cars have an oil temp gauge.

btw it's $53 to change my oil at the dealer, but only they (or someone else with a $1500 scantool) can reset the lights. considering that's with a new filter and 7 quarts of bmw's special formula Mobil1, it's not a bad deal. I always have changed my own before now...

-Colin

kaysey · September 2002

I get terrible mileage, 24/gal, on my legacy '98 wagon. I just bought this car to replace by '88 Volvo wagon, which got 30. Is 24 considered good for Subaru? In my case it's 24% more money for gas.Would anyone out there like to buy a '98 Legacy for cheap?

taddison · September 2002

I do 5K intervals with regular oil (no synthetic), and my car has 210K on it and is still going strong though I drive it hard.

I think 5K is a good compromise between what the oil companies say and what the manufacturer says (7.5K in my case).

The other advantage to a 5K interval is that it's easy to remember. When the odometer rolls around to a 5K multiple I change the oil. I don't need a little sticker on my windshield to remind me when the next change is due.

I really hate those oil company commercials where they imply that you are taking big risks going beyond 3K. Independant studies seem to show otherwise...

cptplt · September 2002

some years ago I read a monograph on this subject, IIRC there have only been a few studies looking at 3k vs longer intervals in regular passenger cars and the numbers of vehicles involved would probably not provide a strong enough statistical difference to really say anything one way or the other. Large commercial heavy vehicle fleets however have shown little disadvantage with extended intervals (more than the 3K but not of the 10-20K advocated by some synthetic makes like redline etc - even there they advocate changing the filter if not replacing the oil completely) but these fleets also have very extensive preventive maintenance programs. The US Army did a study of I believe it was medium trucks. 3k intervals made no difference to the through life mechanical repair costs of the fleet examined but vastly increased costs overall due to the far higher number of oil changes compared to far higher oil change intervals.

Colin
I had a 84 UK spec 318 when I was in Europe. Changed oil 5K religiously and put on over 80K (miles not km) in 2 1/2 years. I know its still running. Its passed through several people at the place I worked at since I left.
This is the only car I have ever done my own oil on. This after I took it to the main West London dealer who didn't tighten the drain plug! Good thing someone who noticed my trail of oil honked me when I was only a few streets away! They were charging close to UKL60 then and I was only a "poor civil servant". If your BMW dealer is only charging $53 for 7 qts synthetic , you are getting a bargain! My local Jiffy Lube charges $48 for 5 quart synthetic changes!

kens · September 2002

Colin,

OT question, but do you wait to change oil until the indicator comes on, and do you need a scantool to reset it every time?

Ken

gobagoo · September 2002

Our Subaru Forester is now 4 years old and has 86,000 miles. In the 4 years we have owned the car, we have experienced numerous problems. Starting with the rotors warping every 20,000 miles with virtually no pad wear (this happened direct from the factory so it is not related to "over tightening"), to the CV joints failing at 45,000 miles with only highway miles, to the main oil seal failing at 55,000 miles, the front exhaust header developed a leak around 65,000 miles so the car sounds like a lawnmower (this is another rare and exceptional experience and can't be repaired, must be replaced....part alone is $250 and we have to wait a week because it is not in stock) and now the rear oil seal failing at 86,000 miles. Throughout all of these problems, the car has died several times on me when in traffic. The check engine light will come on and it goes into "limp mode". It takes 3 miles to get it back up to highway speed and has no power. After you turn it off and restart the car, it is fine. Had the oxygen sensor replaced with no effect. The first 5 or 6 times, I nearly had a nervous breakdown, but now I'm used to the unreliability of the car. When the main oil seal failed, we spoke to both the dealer and the local Subaru rep. We were told that we shouldn't think this was early or unexpected. We were thinking of trading in the car on a new Subaru but were also told that they would deduct $1,000 off the trade in because the car had this problem. Wouldn't even work with us on fixing the problem. Maybe I'm a neophyte, but when we purchased the car, all the reports said this was the type of car that just kept on going. I am extremely disappointed in the quality and response to the design/manufacturing flaws in this vehicle. If the SoWest Subaru rep reads this, I want you to understand that you have lost a repeat customer. I have been asked several times by strangers what I think of the car and I'm sure you can imagine what I am saying. We are going to fix this latest failure (huge time and expense) and trade it in (on another type of car) as soon as possible. We have come to the very obvious conclusion that this year has serious failure issues with all seals, i.e., main oil seal, rear oil seal, recall on Master Cylinder, CV joints, etc. What a piece of JUNK!!!!!!! Thank all of you Subaru Problems readers for letting me vent!!!

rsholland · September 2002

I don't want to minimize or trivialize your situation, but your experience clearly runs counter to that of most Subaru owners.

We've got a '96 Impreza Outback with over 80K on it, and a '01 Forester with over 30K on it, and have had no problems with either vehicle.

Bob

gobagoo · September 2002

It's okay if you trivialize our situation. Go back through the 277 messages before mine and I think that you will indeed find that our problems are not unique. We just appear to be one of the lucky few that have had all of the "inherent" design problems in 1 particular vehicle. Also, you will probably note that most of the vehicles with these problems were manufactured in 1998....obviously not Subaru's finest moment. I'm glad that you have not had to endure our experience. You are the Subaru owner that we had expected that we would be.

ateixeira · September 2002

I was on the 7.5k mile interval, but changed after seeing the Toyota engines sludge up. I know those aren't Subies, but I was amazed at how quickly oil can break down given certain circumstances.

So now I'm changing every 3k, still using dino oil. No big deal - I enjoy doing it, it keeps me in touch with my cars.

Hmm, 7 quarts at $3.50 per quart is...luxury car, luxury budget! ;-)

Edit: Loosh figured out his problem. The leads were dirty on the battery, and cleaning them fixed it.

-juice

paisan · September 2002

That it was corroded contacts IIRC.

-mike

rsholland · September 2002

My experiences are not unusual. I've been an active member of the Subaru forums here at Edmunds for several years (I'm one of the "Subaru Crew Leaders" here at Edmunds).

Yes, there are Subaru owners who have had problems. No vehicle can be expected to be 100% problem-free, so some problems are to be expected. Your situation, however, seems unique, and very much out of the norm.

1998 was the first year for the Forester, so that may account some, if not all of your problems. Although, another "Crew Leader" here (Juice) has a '98 Forester, which he loves. So, who knows...

Did you buy your Subaru new? I'm assuming you had it serviced as per the normal recommended maintenance schedule, at a Subaru dealer?

Bob

locke2c · September 2002

Ken:

There are series of lights, if I remember correctly 5 green, 2 yellow and one red. You're supposed to change the oil by the last green, yellow means "cmon now" and red is past due service.

And yes, a scantool is the only way to reset it.

-Colin

oclvframe · September 2002

In 95 I bought a 92 accord ex coupe that had 29k mi on it. Older Hondas like that one have an analog reminder for oil changes...green is normal, changes to yellow at 6kmi and then to red at 7.5k. My routine was to change the oil around when the indicator turned to yellow....so, I was changing the oil every 6-6.5k mi. That car ran perfectly (purred like a kitten) until I had a mishap with another car which totaled my accord at 157k. Around 130k I found an oil pan leak (true...when you do your oil changes, you see alot under your car you wouldn't ordinarily see) so I replaced it myself. I left myself plenty of time to do the work expecting fully to have to clean something out of the bottom of the pan. Bottom line was, there was nothing to clean. Except for the actual oil still coating the inside of the pan, passing a white rag over it just wiped up the oil, no residue, sludge or anything like that.

FWIW I drive my cars hard...I don't trash them, but I drive them (occasional redlines, etc.).

So, bottom line is: Most important part about oil changes is that they are done regularly along with a new filter and some good quality oil. I only used Castrol GTX on my honda but plan now to only use Mobil 1 in the future on my '01 Bean and '99 Ody.

-r

ateixeira · September 2002

Usually the clutches get worse when it's cold, not better. So that struck me as odd. So does that screech. Definitely make sure it's documented, even if the paper work mentions "customers says...".

Joe: grab Consumer Reports' annual auto issue, and the Forester is at the top in their reliability rankings. It's virtually tied at the top for the best overall rating, too.

Noone's perfect, but that's close.

kaysey: you're compaing FWD to AWD, it's like apples to oranges. Volvo's XC gets 17/24 mpg with AWD, so you'd be lucky to match your average with strictly highway driving on the Volvo, and that's premium fuel, by the way.

gobagoo: you're half right. It's not that we're lucky, it's that you are unlucky. You got the bad apple in the batch. The CV joint problem is rare, in fact I'd never heard of one until now.

The seal leak is not unheard of, but still not common.

I have my original brake pads, even, with 47k hard miles, including towing and off roading.

Venting makes you feel better, so be my guest, just don't assume all Subies are like that. Mine certainly isn't, and that's why we became a repeat customer, the 5th Subie in our family.

-juice

ateixeira · September 2002

Colin: in the back of some car mags, there are ads for $50 or so BMW Reset tools, I wonder how well those work?

-juice

locke2c · September 2002

beats me. I'm happy with my dealer's service and value the documented service records to keep resale high.

-Colin

ateixeira · September 2002

On a car like that, definitely.

I'm glad My.Subaru.Com came along, because it allows me to document changes I did myself in an orderly fashion, and print them on something official looking.

-juice

aa717driver · September 2002

Is that the Subaru reps. sound so much like the Ford reps we tried to deal with when we bought our '97 Expedition.

All the customer service people did was refer us back to the dips**t dealer. Newsflash, Billy, if the dealer was going to help us, we wouldn't be calling the customer service in the first place!

If the Forrester is so sterling(our neighbors finally got rid of theirs a couple of years ago because of mx problems and dealer intransigence) why did the Subie reps tell gobagoo to pound sand?

I'm getting a WRX next time, but only because they are built in Japan. Anything built in Lafayette is a domestic automobile.TC

idahodoug · September 2002

Personally, I stick to the recommended interval and use synthetic. I've been doing this for decades and have never had any type of engine problems despite a tendancy to keep cars longer.

Having said this, I have a few highly technical buddies in my LandCruiser group who've sent their oil in for analysis to see what kind of interval they can get away with. Several were getting normal ranges in their samples. My advice if you want max use from the oil while maintaining proper protection? Send in your oil samples to a testing company for an entire change cycle. You may find that you can run more miles. Using synthetic also eliminates the sludging problem in all cars.

IdahoDoug

ateixeira · September 2002

You work with the local people first, then the regional, then the central 800 number and/or Patti.

The CSRs may not have known that you'd already been at the dealer, since people might just call them first. It's easier to pick up the phone than to pay a visit to the dealer.

I used to work at a Help Desk, and it's the toughest job in the world. Strangers call you to yell at you in anger over something that wasn't your fault, and you have to be polite.

My wife's 2002 Legacy is solid and has better NVH control than my 1998 Forester did when new.

-juice

rsholland · September 2002

the Forester is made in Japan, not in the USA.

<< I'm getting a WRX next time, but only because they are built in Japan. Anything built in Lafayette is a domestic automobile. >>

Bob

celica115 · September 2002

My WRX has oil leak again. I just got it fixed last month. They replaced the seal and the O ring. Now I am wondering that the dealer is cheating the SOA because SOA pay the dealer for the repair cost under warrenty. I don't know I should go to different dealer for repair.

>__< ...

ateixeira · September 2002

It'll be hard to tell because of the mess.

But yeah, if you suspect your dealer and have other local options, I would use them. In fact, call 800-SUBARU3 and ask if there is a regional rep near by that can supervise the fix.

-juice

lilbluewgn02 · September 2002

I had posted a while back on MTM re Susan's Legacy GT, but got no answer...must have fallen into the [non-permissible content removed] of Stephen's up-pipe! Upon startup and for the first few minutes, there is a gurgling noise, like liquids going from one place to another. Has anyone had any experience like this...any idea what it might be?
-Flummoxed in Florida-

ateixeira · September 2002

Just a SWAG, but check the drains under the doors to see if they are clogged. It's common in Miatas to have water sloshing around if they do.

In another topic, Steve mentioned the coolant may have air pockets. In that case, try "burping" the system, I know there is a valve to let air out, though I've never done it myself.

-juice

gobagoo · September 2002

Bob -

Since you are a team leader for this forum and seem to be the one responding to my notes, I will address this to you.

Local dealer took the transmission off today to discover that not only has the rear oil seal failed, but also the pin seal. Please note that this car has a perfect maintenance record and is only used for street or highway driving.

Have been spending way too much time lately speaking with people who have had experience with Subarus. Most interesting was a mechanic who uses these engines in "sand rails". He was very familiar with the oil seal issue. His opinion was that the relief valve (please forgive any wrong technical terms)on this engine is undersized. This, in turn, causes pressure build-up and blows the seals. He claims that someone sells aftermarket kits to rectify this problem and they install them on all the sand rail engines. Has anyone else heard about this?

I have noticed quite a few complaints about oil leaks, seal failures, etc. in this forum so in this issue we are not too rare. Any help would be appreciated. MAP

dmtracy · September 2002

My first Subaru was a lease back 96 Subaru Legacy. I did not pay much attention to all of the repairs, leaks, and idle problems because I bought the extended warranty and did not pay for all of this.

I traded in the 1996 and bought a 2000 subaru Outback. I baby the car. No hard driving. Now it has 36,600 miles. It has never idled smooth. It had a recall for a sensor. Which did not seem to smooth out the idle. The fan makes an irritating whine sound. The AC is not generating as cold air as it used to. At 30,000 miles, the idle arm had to be adjusted. I don't know if this is on all cars, but the fan coming in from the outside blows across the engine and the air is very hot and does not work for an alternative to AC.
Yesterday the Check engine light came on. It seems to me that this is a poor record.
Am I too picky?

rsholland · September 2002

Have you contacted Patti (Subaru Team) here at Edmunds? She works for Subaru of America (SOA), and is an active member in this and other Edmunds Subaru forums, and really does try to help with those who are having problems. It's also good to get a claim started with SOA, so they can keep track and follow up on it.

Her email is: PMickel@subaru.com.

As to your oil leaks, I'm afraid I don't have any answers, as I'm not a mechanic.

Bob

ray_rwm · September 2002

I have had my 2001 Outback automatic for almost 2 years now,But still can not get use to the break and gas pedal placement. I found the break pedal is too far to the right and my foot got caught under it a few times while trying to break. This is very dangerest. Does any body have any suggestion of getting an after market break pedal that is at least an inch narrower than the original equipment ?
Any help will be appreciated

thanks

ray

lilbluewgn02 · September 2002

Any ideas where the valve might be located? I doubt something like that will be in the owner's manual

ateixeira · September 2002

The leaks aren't common, but not rare either. I've heard of a couple of cases. How old is yours? How many miles?

It might be a good idea to replace the seals if you're doing the timing belt (at 60 or 90k miles), since the labor is paid for and it'll cost you next to nothing.

dmtracy: the '96 was a 2.2l but had the same block, so you had thicker cylinder walls. Any time you have a large displacement 4 cylinder (like the 2.5l), it'll carry inherent disadvantages compared to a smaller displacement engine, especially with the same block.

The trade off is more power and torque, of course.

But it should still be fairly smooth. A couple of things to consider that are cheap fixes:

#1: get a new battery. The OE batteries have very low CCA ratings, and my replacement battery (with double the CCAs) resulted in smoother starting and running.

#2: look into the SPG mod on i-club.com. SPG for single-point ground. It doesn't help everyone, but it does help people with the symptoms you describe. You have nothing to lose.

For a DIYer that enjoys projects, you could spend a couple of hours and knock both those out.

Next...A/C. Hmm. Check the belt tension, make sure it's not slipping. Inspec the belt itself. I've heard of people insulating the A/C lines, too, which run on the driver's side of the engine, right next to the red-hot exhaust manifold, which might make the A/C loose some effectiveness.

You can thank the feds for the check engine light, it could be something as silly as a loose gas cap. The dealer can reset it. NAPA stores will read the codes for free, I've heard.

Hang in there, it sounds like every problem you have can be addressed.

Ray: try any local auto parts stores, but measure the current size first.

-juice

ateixeira · September 2002

No - I did check some photos I have of my engine bay, but they were too small or didn't show the area near the radiator.

It would have to be up near the top of the radiator, where the air pockets would go. Check the highest hose that leaves the radiator first.

-juice

strider98 · September 2002

Patti may not be at work due to her neck problem...

celica115 · September 2002

jfl · September 2002

Usually, such a bleed is on the high point of the engine. I don't recall Subies having such a bleed. I'm travelling so I can't check the manuals or run to the garage and look.

Maybe when I get home. I'll be changing the coolant soon, so this would be good preparation.

Jim

rsholland · September 2002

Good point. She's been MIA for some time now. I hope she's feeling okay...

Bob

idahodoug · September 2002

I know the 96 and 97 has a bleed valve on the right end of the radiator. Like those found on many other vehicles, it is a black plastic disc with what looks like a huge Phillips head indentation. When the car is warm (not hot - perhaps 15 mins after shutdown) and on a level surface, open this up slowly and a bit of coolant will seep out. Once this happens, you know the fluid has pushed out whatever air was in the system and there's just fluid in there. Simple and effective and I'd wager all Subarus have this feature.

IdahoDoug

ray_rwm · September 2002

Thanks Juice.

Are there any other Outback automatic owner have the same problem with brake and gas pedal placement as I am having? I found the brake pedal is too close to the gas pedal in auto gearbox Outbacks. This could be a defect and subaru has to take care of.
I need to check out the manual tranny outback to see if the distance between brake and gas pedals are the same as that in auto tranny outbacks.

ray

lilbluewgn02 · September 2002

As usual, the crew has come thru...I will check Susan's car for the bleed valve. Hate to have to shlep up to Delray to do this.

ateixeira · September 2002

NAPA is an auto parts store, I think some location also offer service.

ray: we have a manual Legacy with pedals like the Outback. Ours has good spacing, but it does take a while to get used to the hinged gas pedal (the top portion moves back an inch or two without increasing the throttle).

-juice

ateixeira · September 2002

Grab a pic if you get a chance, to help the next person.

-juice

idahodoug · September 2002

Use of the bleeder from the owner's manual shows they want you to open it when you're refilling with fresh coolant as well. Keep pouring slowly (giving the coolant time to chase the air bubbles out of various engine water galleries) until coolant comes out the bleeder valve. Then shut it and drive for a while before loosening it again to bleed out any bit of air left. Piece o' cake. Oh, you're in Florida? Be sure to run the car for an errand or some similar length with the heater on. This will get coolant circulation through the heater core behind the dash (likely noise culprit) to rid it of air also. Now that I'm thinking about it, is she starting with the A/C on? A lot of A/C systems make this gurgling sound and it circulates through a heat exchanger also behind the dash. If that's the case, she may need an A/C system evacuation and recharge. I don't know if there's a little sight glass on her system to detect bubbles in the A/C lines. Anyone?

IdahoDoug

ateixeira · September 2002

I should "burp" mine. I flushed and filled the coolant a while ago, maybe it's time to do it again.

Last time I just checked and topped it off for the next 2-3 days. By the 3rd day it stayed full.

-juice

idahodoug · September 2002

You mean it kept sipping from the overflow bottle? Mine did that too. Kinda surprised me as I've never had a car do that. Just noticed by chance that it had gone down well below full a few days later. Curious. Seems like that would mean there was an equal volume of air in the system somewhere, eh?

IdahoDoug

ateixeira · September 2002

It might have, but what I meant was that I was helping it by opening the radiator cap (after the engine cooled, of course) and adding coolant directly, the hard way.

That's why I love these forums, I've learned to look for that valve next time.

-juice

idahodoug · September 2002

Agree on the forums. Your post just reminded me to go out and pour the leftover coolant into the overflow bottle. I way overfilled it and put a piece of tape at this level - wonder if there's any harm in overfilling like that?? It only takes from the bottle if it needs it in the cooling system AFAIK... Anyone?

IdahoDoug

ateixeira · September 2002

It may spill and puddle up. Then if a cat or dog finds it, the sweet smell may attract them, and it can be fatal.

Make sure to clean up any spills and recycle the stuff.

-juice

idahodoug · September 2002

I don't mean overfill as in on the floor. The overflow container has a 'FULL' line that's about a quarter of the way up the container. I filled mine until it is about 2/3 full instead. You make a good point about spillage, so I'm wondering if there's any condition that would come about causing it to spill over? If the cooling system gets too hot, it forces some fluid into the container, but I wouldn't think much. Anyone ever note much exchange going on?

Otherwise, I think I'm just carrying an extra pint around in the event of an overheat/boilover.

IdahoDoug

originalbitman · September 2002

Wow! Learned something new again on this board:

Per Idahodoug in post #5671:

"The reason it's funny is that yesterday I bought a couple more factory oil filters and I intentionally did not ask for the little seal crush washers they'd give me the first time. Sure enough the parts guy was careful to put one in with the filter and I asked him to again show me where it goes. It's a normal crush washer, and on the factory oil filter there's a circular depression it fits into around the threaded center hole. The bulge goes against the block as would be standard crush washer practice on a drain plug or other. So, seemed like unprompted reinforcement of this feature. I asked him why a Fram or other aftermarket filter for my car did not have this feature and he didn't know."

I searched everywhere for this info. Even on i-club. I found no reference to an oil filter crush washer other than 1 post asking if the washer was for the filter or not. All responses were that it was for the drain plug and NOT the filter. Seeing how Doug got it from the parts dept. person it seems as though it must be correct. Anyone esle ever install a crush washer on their OEM filter?

bit

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