Subaru Crew Problems & Solutions

krzyss · January 2003

that Chrysler helped Neon owners (like me) with leaky head gaskets well after warranty (51000 in my case).
And Chrysler is infamous and Subaru not. Life is not fair.
Maybe it is because Subaru has 2 head gaskets (the boxer feature) ?

Krzys

PS I hope to buy WRX some day and its engine seems to be quite bulletproof. People are complaining about transmission (clutch shudder ?) but not about engine.

3subeowner · January 2003

To shad12: I am also posting on the Subaru Crew message board in Wagons-Problems & Solutions. I was definitely struck with the similarity between our cars, same problem, year & mileage. In spite of what your dealer said, failed head gaskets should not be considered normal. For anyone who faces a $2,000 & up repair job, it is a big deal. And yes the $8,000 engine rebuild is worse, but these cars should not be facing these kind of repair issues if they've been well taken care of. Mine has always been garaged, synthetic oil changes, etc. I really debated buying the 100M mile warranty insurance, but was talked out of it. I am lucky that I have the in-house professional auto mechanic to pull the engine and repair heads, replace the clutch, whatever problems come up. But for everyone else, your better off to pay the $800-$900 for warranty protection. Meanwhile, see below, call Subaru and add your saga to their list. If they hear from enough owners, they can issue a Voluntary Campaign bulletin.
I spoke with Subaru (1/28) about the 2 Subes with head gasket problems. They are interested, but don't have anything pending as far as a recall or a voluntary campaign. The bitter cold is probably a factor (CT has been bone-chilling cold most of January), but these cars & head gaskets should survive much worse. I do have a case # for the '98 Outback (the engine was built 3/14/98) and will be getting information back to them on what we find, if the heads are warped and need machining, etc. They also took info on the '01 Legacy 2.5L GT Sedan but will see reports on that from the dealer with the repair. I recommend to everyone with coolant leaking and head gasket problems get in touch with Subaru on the web-site or the Customer/Dealer Services Department at 1-800-SUBARU-3 (1-800-782-2783). They could do a Voluntary Campaign bulletin if there is enough of an issue.

ateixeira · January 2003

I immediately thought CV joint, too. But also have them inspect the wheel bearings and the axle boots. Those are rubber so road debris can tear them and make the grease leak, eventually causing noise. It happened to our 626.

It could also be something stuck in the HVAC hoses, like dry leaves. Maybe crank the vent to full blast and use a strong vacuum to see if you can suck anything out of those vents.

Maybe visit the dealer when it's raining to show him where the seal isn't tight.

krzyss: I did some in-depth research into that tranny/clutch issue, and here's what I found.

First off, every case of tranny failure I could find had modified powertrains, most producing in excees of 280hp (claimed), and were power shifting into 2nd gear and proceeded to shave some teeth off 2nd gear. Noone with the stock 227hp had that problem.

This is just my opinion, but if you invest that kind of money into the engine, you should be getting the STi's 6 speed tranny while you're at it, plus an ACT or Ludespeed clutch. It's just plain dumb to dump the clutch and power shift ANY tranny, let along a stock one.

The other thing is that all were 2002 models. The 2003s got a force limiting valve in the clutch mechanism, and while that may limit the fun you might have with wild burnouts, it also saves the tranny and the clutch. I've seen no failures.

The "chatter" does occur on the clutches, mostly the 2002s once again, but it doesn't seem to affect longevity.

I followed a thread on NASIOC and some folks were even recommending owners not discuss their mods in public. Shame on them, those liars might make a claim and cost Subaru dearly, then the costs get passed on to loyal customers.

-juice

racheluk · January 2003

Thanks juice and nippon,
No offroading, treat the car real nice. Hopefully not the CV joint... Leaves are a possibility. Gonna check with the Sube tech on Saturday. Thanks for your ideas. I'll let you know the outcome. Rachel

shad12 · January 2003

3subeowner:I just picked up my outback today. The service dept said they have 3 more subaru's sitting there waiting for head gaskets. I live in western wa which has a mild climate. Dealer changed oil at the regular intervals and performed the scheduled maintenance. I also used synthetic oil. My drive to work each day was 50 miles round trip on the highway at 55 to 65 mph. No traffic jams. I did email subaru tonite. To Krzyss: Sorry if it seems like I am doing too much whining or crying about this issue. Life is neither fair nor unfair. Before my purchase of a subaru, I spoke with as many subaru owners as possible and tried to research the reliability of subaru's. I am just trying to determine if there is an inherent problem or not. I was just taken by surprise with the head gaskets. No, I would not expect chrysler to build a better neon. I purchased two GM lemons. One a late '70s chevy sedan and then an '81 1/2 ton chev pickup. Even though brand new I never was able to get every mechanical problem fixed. Then I got lucky and purchased a Nissan pickup that was driven to 248,000 miles with very few problems. All mechanical things fail. Even subaru's. Just happens.

celica115 · January 2003

I pickup up my WRX this morning. Happy driving on the road again. It took the dealer three days to finish the job. The service manager was not happy at me when I picked it up. He said that SOA called him for my car's problem. I am happy that SOA followed up the case. Anyway, as long as my WRX is running good, I don't care he likes it or not. hehehe ...

Back to the subject, they found the leaks R and R transmission to access leaks from oil seperator co verseal leaking. I am not sure what is that mean, can somebody tell? On the reciept, I can see all of the part#. They replaced 4 seals and 1 belt. Oil seal, oilseal - 32 X 45 X 8, Oil separator cover sealer, cam seal both side and cam belt. They told me that they took out the entire transmission in order to replace those seals. One thing I was suprise, they washed my car.

Luk

ateixeira · January 2003

Remove and replace = R and R. "co verseal" is a typo, it's "cover seal".

The important thing is they covered it and you got it back. Watch the oil level carefully, just to be safe (we all should anyway).

-juice

kens · January 2003

This morning, during my routine air pressure check, I found a nail stuck in my driver's side front tire. I'm having that patched for now, but it's time for new tires.

I'm thinking of going with the SP5000 or, maybe the Sport A2s.

Is there anything one trades off by going from the Sport A2 to SP5000? I'm sure dry grip is better with the SP5000, but how about wet, snow, tire noise, ride?

I want to order these soon!

Ken

lark6 · January 2003

I've had the SP5000s on for a month. Let's compare them to the Geolandars rather than the 17" Pilot Sport A/S. They have better wet grip in the rain, better dry grip, better handling, and are quieter. Ride is about even. Pressures currently at 34/32 front/rear.

We had 3" of slushy wet snow here yesterday, which turned to sleet late. They went well most of the time but I did hit an icy patch not far from home where they didn't grip and I slid a bit at about 25-30 mph. Last week we had 2-3" of dry powder and they were fine. They're no worse than the Geos in snow but I can't say they're substantially better either, at least not yet.

Ed

c_hunter · January 2003

I'm kind of late to this discussion, but thought I would refer to the following link which has some good info:

http://www.vtr.org/maintain/oil-overview.html

A key point: 10w-30 synthetic has a much lower pouring point than 5w-30 dino, and pumps easier when cold (this is slightly different than viscosity). So, you will probably experience quieter startups going from 5w-30 dino to 10w-30 synthetic just because the oil pumps better in spite of its higher viscosity. Note that 5w-30 synthetic pumps only marginally better than 10w-30 synthetic. I think 10w-30 synthetic is a really good choice -- gives you good low temp pumping performance AND better lubrication (higher viscosity) at low temps. Best of both worlds, so to speak.

Craig

bsvoller · January 2003

I've reported recently on the Sport A2's in the snow. A definite improvement over the stock Geo's, very well balanced IMHO.

I run 32 psi all around.

-brianV

fibber2 · January 2003

Craig,

On face value, this makes sense. I am just having a problem understanding how PP and V differ.

Also, as 'weight' is a time-distance test (fluid travel down a tube at low temp), what is the new Mobil 1 grade 0w-30 ??? And can there be anything below this 0 grade?

Confused in oil land,

Steve

bluesubie · January 2003

Excellent and informative article by Ed Hackett, although the spec. data is getting a little old.

Example: The gap between the Mobil 1 10W30 and 5W30 Mobil Drive Clean (conventional oil) is narrowing. Mobil 1 10W30 now has a pour point of -49F and the 5W30 conventional has a pour point of -38F (from mobil1.com and mobil.com).

By that chart, M1 10W30 used to have a pour point of -65F! Hmmm, basestock changes? Hello ExxonMobil!

-Dennis

kens · January 2003

Ed, brianV:

Thanks for your replies. I do remember reading your updates on the tires before.

The price difference between the SP5000 and Sport A2 is about $10/tire at the local Discount Tire shop. It's small enough that I would cross shop them.

Ed -- I don't think any all-season tire is going to do well on ice. I remember a scary moment when I was gliding over a patch of black ice with my Geolandars. I don't think anything short of a dedicated winter tire could have made a difference then.

Ken

hypov · January 2003

PP = measures ease of flow
V = measures its ability to maintain lubrication properties.

???? My guess ????

-Dave

lark6 · January 2003

Ken: understood re all-seasons. This winter in the Northeast has been more severe than last. More snowfalls though with less accumulation in each, and definitely much colder. Thank goodness for that Cold Weather Package!

Ed

c_hunter · January 2003

I have to tell you, I am a mech. engineer who works in fluid dynamics, and I am confused by the concept of pouring point as well. No doubt it is related to viscosity somehow, but clearly it involves other effects. Viscosity is an intrinsic bulk property of a fluid (fluids include gasses and liquids), while pouring point is a application-based "test" as best as I can tell. It likely involves other properties of the fluid such as density, surface tension, internal stresses, etc... in a flowing scenario.

A jar of oil at a certain temperature has a certain viscosity no matter what you do with it. even if it just sits on the shelf. If you pour the jar out in a specific standardized test, you get a measure of its pouring point. That's my best understanding of the concept.

Regarding 0W oils, my understanding is that it's a bit less viscous than 5W oils. I found a chart on the AMSOIL website that rates 0W at 57.2 cSt viscosity, while 5W is 59.5 cSt. I have heard about the "timing" of oils to get 5W, 10W, etc.., but have never seen that referenced, so I can't say if it's correct or not (please let me know otherwise). Clearly, zero seconds is not possible for a viscous fluid, but perhaps that's the nomenclature used for a timing less than 1.

Craig

rsholland · January 2003

Those heated seats have been bun-savers this winter! It's funny, there have been several times this winter that I opted for the Forester to drive, simply because it has heated seats and no leather.

Bob

hammersley · January 2003

I'm not sure which tires to run... last week there was 4-6 inches of snow on the ground here... tomorrow's forecasted high is 51!

Soon as I put the Spectrums back on, though... winter will make a grand re-appearance! Sheesh!

Cheers!
Paul

pavery99 · January 2003

When our 2001 OBW overheated at 21k miles, the dealership's first guess was gasket failure and implied it was pretty common. Now I'm getting really concerned at the thought of a $3000 repair repair bill or more out of warranty. Seem's like the aluminum heads warp at the hint of overheating and that this problem came with the 2.5L increase in displacement and power. Does anyone know if this is a weakness that can be fixed or do we all need to think about trading in?

fibber2 · January 2003

I appreciate your addition to this discussion.

We electrical engineer types only have to worry about electrons flowing thru wires and across junctions!! Of course for the last 10 years or so I have also had to deal with how ions in a vacuum are influenced by electrostatic fields, and the phonon induced chemical reactions they can cause.... God, do I hate this stuff!

Steve

3subeowner · January 2003

To pavery99:Instead of taking the dealer's word that failed head gaskets are common, please call or e-mail Subaru.com (phone info below) and tell them about your experience. If this is a common problem, then they should be doing something more about it. My family made two brand new car purchases & chose Subaru because we thought they were good value and would last for well over 100M+ miles without major failures & $$ expense. If Subaru dealers think that $2,000 and $3,000 expenses are no big deal, then they definitely will lose customers. A lot of non-Sube owners are very surprised to hear that I have 2 Sube's with head gasket problems right now. It's not helping the Subaru reputation.

I recommend to everyone with coolant leaking and head gasket problems get in touch with Subaru on the web-site or the Customer/Dealer Services Department at 1-800-SUBARU-3 (1-800-782-2783). They could do a Voluntary Campaign bulletin if there is enough of an issue. A recall gets done by federal action, so this probably won't fit in that category.

hypov · January 2003

Your field(s) of knowledge intrigues me.

Thanks for the better understanding of PP vs V Craig.
Electricity? I do know if you ground yourself and hold the hot wire... you get a good buzz.

-Dave

c_hunter · January 2003

By the way, know anything about IBM's PPC970 CPU? Us Mac users in science/engineering are drooling over it.... Looks to have some of the capabilities of the Power4 plus a vector unit.

Craig

fibber2 · January 2003

Unfortunately, wrong guy to ask. Our job is to develop the semiconductor technology to make those designs work (gate speed, manufacturability, and the like). We sometimes get involved in the intracacies of why an individual ckt block doesn't work, but few of us really know what the chip does, per se.

Steve

shad12 · January 2003

"We are sorry to learn of the circumstances that prompted your contact. No technical bulletins have been issued in reference to the condition you have described. Therefore, we must rely on the expertise of an authorized subaru dealeship to handle this matter. Because they have the advantage of a hands-on inspection, your local subaru dealership is in the best position to inspect the vehicle to address your concerns."

"Unfortunately, the life expectancy of any mechanical component is indefinite. As a result, we issue the subaru powertrain warranty with the hopes that any problems you may experience will be taken care of without expense to you. However, as you may be aware, the warranty expired at 60,000 miles. Beyond the warranty period, we are not in a position to offer financial assistance with repairs unless there is a recall on the component. There are no open recalls pertaining to your vehicle at this time. Should a recall ever be issued on this, or any other vehicle component, we will contact you by mail."

schlisner · January 2003

I received my parts from libertysubaru.com yesterday. They rock. Good prices and service. Now I'll be able to make my car whole again this weekend.

As for tires... I've had the Sport A2s for about a month now and I am very happy with them. No comparison to the OE tires. For the money they are hard to beat.

-eirik

03xngreen · January 2003

Great. I finally spring for a new car and a month later the horror stories start...

ateixeira · January 2003

No heated seats here, I'm freezing my buns!

-juice

lfdal · January 2003

I know. Bad enough I got myself an 03 Forester in July, but I talked my wife into ditching her 97 Accord wagon to move up to an 03 Outback wagon. We both bought the extended warranty for 6yrs/80k. Bet I/we don't keep it/them long enough for the warranty to expire, unless this dies down or Subaru makes a general recall.
-OR-
Are those of us on a group like this just a very minor subset of all Subaru owners, such that the statistics are biased?

ateixeira · January 2003

Well, people with a problem seek out boards such as these to get help, so yeah, I think you see a higher proportion of complaints. We have 3 of the 2.5l engines in our family and every one has been flawless.

There are about a million 2.5l engines out there, remember.

If you want your engine to run cooler, you can get a bottle of Water Wetter by Redline, it's about $7 or so from any good speed shop.

If you have a gasket leak, odds are you'll know before any damage is done to the heads, at least I would hope so. The temp gauge would also register so you would have time to shut off the engine.

-juice

reblack_jr · January 2003

Took the car into the dealer for routine oil change etc. and mentioned the antifreeze smell reported earlier. Small weapage found by them on the left side. Parts are on order for the replacement next week.
Should I request both heads be repaired? What other work (parts replacement) should be done that could save me disassemble costs later. The car has ~28K miles, put into service July 2001

lharvey1 · January 2003

Just had the head gaskets replaced on my 99 Forester .. drivers side. My impression is that most of the reported leaks are external. Mine was a slow seepage that was very difficult to find - just occasional odor of coolant as small drop would fall on the exhaust pipe running under engine. Car has 47000 miles - never overheated. I doubt Subaru would do a general recall on so many head gaskets - My hope is that its a one time fix since I do like this car.
Larry in Alabama

outback_97 · January 2003

Sorry if these have already been posted, but I found these links about oil to be interesting and informative:

http://www.shellglobalsolutions.com/base_oils/library/base_oil.ht- - m
http://www.repairfaq.org/filipg/AUTO/F_oil_facts.html
Both of these address pour point.

My question is for new car purchasers: We just bought an '03 TS wagon, and are wondering about the timeframe of the 1st oil change. Old school thinking is that it should be done @ 1000 to 1500 miles to remove metal bits and such that are inherent in breaking in a brand new engine. Our dealer says change at 3000 because it has "break-in" oil that needs to stay in that long before changing. However, this is the same service dept. that told me to only replace one strut on another vehicle at 90000 miles and one was leaking badly. You could say I lack confidence in their information.

I called Subaru, and they said 3000, based on the normal service oil change interval of 7500... BUT, in "severe" environments, which in reality apply to many drivers, the interval is half, so 7500 becomes about 3000 and 3000 becomes 1500. So, any other opinions, as I probably can only get less confused from here. Any info from someone who has gone down this road before would be great, as this is my 1st new car purchase. Thanks.

(yet another) Steve

ateixeira · January 2003

Actually, Subaru uses plain old Havoline conventional oil from the factory, no special additives. Change it when you're ready and don't worry.

I changed mine at 1k the first time, and I have 49k miles now and average 25mpg, so it couldn't have been wrong.

-juice

nygreg · January 2003

Had my gasket done over the holidays with 33K on the car. I asked about the right side. They said they are only seeing left gaskets fail and Subaru would not authorize the right side. They did a "leak down" test after the installation to make sure the new one was on correctly. They will replace your antifreeze and oil (2 items you need to do in 2K miles anyway). They changed my plugs for an extra $20 bucks or so with Bosch plugs. I also had them change fluids on both diffys and the auto tranny. Since I use Mobil 1, I gave them the oil to use. Total out of bocket was $144. Oh, and they replaced my front rotors and all pads under warranty too. They took care of me.

Greg

leo2633 · January 2003

Just an observation on the bun warmers: The ones in my '01 Forester S heat up quicker and get much warmer than the ones on my wife's '02 Outback. Maybe there is more padding on the OB cushions? I know I much prefer the Forester on the more frigid mornings. Those heaters are NICE!!! Anyone else have one of each to compare?

Thanks in advance,
Len

c_hunter · January 2003

I'd have to agree -- the heaters on my wife's 03 Forester get warmer faster than the ones on my 02 Outback. Which is good, because she is always cold!

Craig

rsholland · January 2003

Could it be the seat material? Do cloth seats warm up quicker than leather seats? I know leather seats seem to feel much colder in the winter than cloth seats, when you first climb in.

Bob

c_hunter · January 2003

Both are leather in our case, though we would prefer cloth. I bet leather warms up quicker, but feels colder at first so it's probably a wash.

Craig

ateixeira · January 2003

Depends on where they put the heaters, but I would think cloth breathes easier, so it should warm up quicker. I dunno.

Wish I had seat heaters to find out!

-juice

nygreg · January 2003

on the thermal mass of leather vs. cloth. Anyone have a calibrated bunn?

Greg

nygreg · January 2003

My experience is the same as Larry's. At 33k, the left gasket went. Subaru could extend the warranty to, say, 100k for head gaskets. Toyota did the same concerning sludge (increased to 8 years, unlimited mileage!) even though the % of sludged engines is very small.

Greg

rangerron7 · January 2003

Same here. The wife's 02 Forester bun warmers heat faster than my 00 Outback.
Ron

leo2633 · January 2003

We have cloth seats in both vehicles (base Outback and Forester S) so we're not comparing the leather to cloth seating surfaces. Thanks for all the input. I guess it's the design of the seat and/or heater in the Forester that lets it warm up faster. FWIW, a friend has a Mercedes E320 wagon, and the heated seats (leather, of course) in that vehicle don't get as warm as the Forester, either.

Len

pavery99 · January 2003

When my gasket/head replacement event happened at 21k miles, there was no smell and the temp gage was never in the red. I had been driving on an interstate for 2 hours at 75mph in cold weather - temp looked normal until we slowed down to exit. My experience with the SOA dealer service people has not been good and I feel pretty bitter about the whole thing. Even if 1% of cars have this happen it's still a large number of victims.

idahodoug · January 2003

I'm a Michelin fanatic and put these on my Subaru Legacy Wagon this winter. I drove them on glare ice for a half mile at freeway speeds before noticing the other lane (a quarter mile away out West here) had a flare every few hundred yards and getting suspicious. It was dark and the rain suddenly began freezing. At any rate, they were incredible in terms of stability - I didn't even know the ice was under me. It was so slick, I could barely generate any braking force without the ABS detecting slippage so I simply coasted from 75 down to a safer 30.

Another glare ice event a few days later showed the same results, though I also added excellent slide recovery to my assessment by playing a bit in the streets.

Packed snow, they're amazing - idiot proof.

Other than the ice/packed snow performance though, they've been kind of disappointing. On a few inches of snow, or slush they do not track well - constantly threatening to ease you off the road. They also broke loose easily on wet on ramps. Oh, also the braking performance on ice was not as strong as the cornering and acceleration ability.

They're quiet and ride far better than the winter tires I've typically used (steel studs, aggressive tread), but lack directional stability - a trait I attribute to the soft compound and heavy siping.

We have the 4X4 Alpin version on the LandCruiser, which has been excellent in all conditions. The tread pattern is more like the Alpin Pilot, which I'd have gotten were it available in a 15".

Would I buy them again? Definitely not. They're not a well rounded winter tire - too specifically for ice and packed stuff for my taste.

IdahoDoug

leo2633 · February 2003

Doug,

Interesting review of the Michelin's. I have a set of Blizzak's mounted on steel wheels for my Forester and the wife's Outback (both 5 speeds). Although we've had several snow "events" this winter season, only the December 5th storm was significant, dropping around 9-10 inches. Anyway, I mounted the Blizzaks on the Forester that day and was quite amazed at how well they did, in deep, loose and packed snow. I started, stopped and turned in every manner I could on the roads I drove on, and never once slipped or got stuck. The ABS hardly ever kicked in either, leading me to believe the traction was so good that ABS wasn't triggered. Because our roads were cleared by the next day, I removed the Blizzak's and put the Geos back on.

I didn't have the opportunity to try the Blizzak's on ice, so that review will have to wait for another day. However, I can honestly say that the Forester with the Blizzak's did better in every situation in that particular storm than my '87 Montero (also a 5 speed) used to do with it's Goodyear Wrangler AT's. I realize that the Montero's higher ground clearance and part time 4WD with low range would do better in really deep snow, but the Forester did great in the conditions I've encountered so far.

Len

hondafriek · February 2003

I live in Ottawa Canada where snow is a given for at least 5 months of every year, this year I put BF Goodrich winter slaloms on my GT wagon, in the twenty nine winters that I have lived here these are by far the best winter tires I have ever had on any car.

They grip like hell in any condition,and try as I might I have only been able to get the ABS to kick in once, on dry pavement they are much quieter than the eagle RSAs that I run in the summer.

I would have no hesitation recommending the winter Slaloms.

Cheers Pat.

toboggan · February 2003

Normally Minnesota (Twin Cities) has a snowy winter starting in November. The Blizzaks WS-50s (mounted on take-off OB rims) then stay in place until early April. These tires have performed in 16" snows plus plowing through the pile at the end of the driveway. Ice has not been a problem either. But this dry year has caused the sticky part of the tread to wear more rapidly.

Plus the wife's '95 Jeep Cherokee (Selec-Trac transfer case) has a set. That goes in full time 4-wheel in November 'til April (normally).

Steve in Minnesota

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