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Also, the garage that inspected the car says that I am allowed one not ready. I think I am going to focus on the P0420 code. I replaced the upstream O2 sensor. Next payday, I will do the downstream.
Bad ground on the radio. Has nothing to do with the misfire.
Cheers!
Paul
P0420 is catalyst efficiency. That's caused by the rear o2 sensor only, never the front, so your front o2 sensor was a waste I'm afraid.
It's also likely the catalyst itself and not the sensor, if you have a lot of miles. Call some muffler shops and find out how much they want for a new catalyst and installation. Should be around $250-300.
I can get a Cat off the Internet for about $260. And since I removed the head myself, the Cat is a piece of cake.
I'll concede that my car had much fewer miles, roughly 30k-40k, but I don't think this would harm the oxygen sensors. They could be due for replacement anyway though, of course!
If you've driven a lot of miles since March 2006, your cat could be bad (again?). Unfortunately, I've seen P0420 caused by misfires and other stuff that really doesn't have much to do with catalyst efficiency, in my personal opinion. So there is some risk that you're going to replace all these things that make logical sense, and still not have your solution.
What's the answer? I dunno, how much for a complete engine from a salvage yard?
In addition to federal law (the Magnuson-Moss warranty act) and the Uniform Commercial Code, there are state "lemon laws." Most state lemon laws specify that a manufacturer must provide a refund or replacement for a defective new vehicle when a substantial defect cannot be fixed in four attempts, a safety defect within two attempts or if the vehicle is out of service for 30 days within the first 12,000 to 18,000 miles or 12 to 24 months.
I'm sure it's annoying to you. It may be an "anamoly" of certain Subarus. But that doesn't make a car a "lemon." So far we don't even know it's a "defect", let alone a substantial one or a safety defect.
Sorry if I seem overly technical or unsympathetic, I am not unsympathetic.
Unfortunately my experience is that virtually no car maker today makes cars that don't have an Achilles heel or 2 or 3. I'm reading about brand new Hondas with all kinds of issues. Our '05 Matrix has gone through 3 belt tensioners, a water pump and a power steering pump in 18 months so I'm certainly not going to assume that a Toyota would do any better than your Subie.
Good luck figuring it out, I'll be curious to hear if others have the same issue and if anyone has found a cause or fix.
About the noise -- Is it detonation? Have you tried premium fuel (91-93 octane)?
I'm not sure what engine is in your Outback,but I'm guessing that some of them available require premium, or strongly suggest it which is the same as require.
Jon
like our new tranny at 45 K in our 06 Sienna! just like in our 95 Windstar and 00 windstar which is why we bought a toyota in 06! at least our 00 venture went 130K with no tranny problems!
I appreciate your ideas, but I can eliminate all of them except the fuel pump.
- My dealer changed out (or should have) the fuel filter at the 90K service though it wouldn't hurt to replace it again just in case.
- I put a bottle of Techron in every oil change.
-The dealer found the #3 spark plug wire was "burnt and carbonize" when I took it in two weeks ago and replaced the entire set as a result. It didn't help.
But here's the weird thing. I did a 3,300 mile road trip last week and the car ran flawlessly. But once I got home and did a lot of around town driving, the bucking returned.
So, why does it only do it after extensive city driving and not on the highway? It seems like if it were the fuel pump it would do it all the time.
What do you all think of a computer re-flash? The car is now at 101K.
Thank you!
Heat won't affect your fuel pump much, though. How's your coolant temp? Does your engine get hot in town?
However, you could definitely generate way more load and throttle % in town than on the highway-- assuming you are cruising on relatively flat ground. If you're passing people a lot or driving in the mountains, then that's a different story.
Since day one, the temp gauge always stays planted in the same spot just below the middle no matter what kind of driving I'm doing.
But I live in Tucson so it's definitely a hot climate, and the problem is for sure worse in the summer. What could that mean?
As far as the highway driving, we went from Tucson to northwest Montana with a few side trips up and back. There was plenty of mountain driving on a variety of roads, interstate cruising at speeds between 65 and 80 in 100 degree heat at times, and even 150 miles of some worse off-road driving I've ever done (the car barely made it) and still no issues whatsoever.
On another forester forum, there was an extensive discussion of a similar problem many people were having and the fixed seemed to be a computer re-flash. The service advisor at my dealer knew of the fix and looked it up, but said it was for later models.
So...????
Just an odd thought...I wonder if localized hot spots are causing pre-ignition. The wrong heat range plug used to cause such problems. With emission controlled engines running extra hot to control smog, there is not much margin for error. Even if cooling is ok at cruising speed, water flow might not be quite adequate at low rpm. Just because the temperature gauge is happy doesn't necessarily mean every cylinder is adequately cooled: Note the cooling redesign on the new 3.6 liter versus the 3.0 liter engines to fix that problem so as to permit lower octane fuel. Does substituting 91 or 92 octane fuel fix it?
That was my recollection of Subarus, too. I was asking because even though your temp gauge doesn't move, it probably is a 'harder' environment in city driving in the summer than cruising on the highway.
Your bucking is a little weird. It's a severe problem, but somewhat unusual that it's relatively hard to duplicate. I would think that a Subaru dealer could plug in their OBDII scan tool and generate logs or watch in realtime to aid in the diagnostics. However, going with my original fuel pump theory, fuel pressure is not reported to OBDII. But if you were seeing a lot of knock sensor activity, I think that would be a good clue.
Regarding what would a re-flash possibly do?
- It definitely will reset learned tables for timing and fuel, even if they flashed the same code you are currently running. This would be the same as resetting the ECU either with a OBDII tool or by unplugging the battery for 1hr+.
- They could change the fuel and ignition advance maps, and possibly the knock sensor responsiveness. I don't want to jump to conclusions, but I remember some older Subarus had a hyperactive knock sensor which caused problems until reflashed. (Some owners/hobbyists, however, didn't wait and instead used their own repairs, like a rubber washer under it. That's scary-- don't do it!)
BTW, I'm not talking out of my butt about the OBDII stuff. I have an Accessport for my Evo, and tuned the car with it, read diagnostic logs and realtime performance (while someone else was driving of course). I don't know what capabilities the Subaru dealerships have with their tool, but in general you could do a lot with OBDII monitoring.
So, is reflashing the ECU really the same as resetting it by disconnecting the battery? I tried this a long time ago and it didn't have any effect. I thought a reflash was something the dealer had to do.
I don't know if this is at all related to the knock sensor, but the car does ping at highway speeds in the summer with the A/C on unless I put a higher octane fuel in it.
I think posted earlier that I used to regularly overfill the gas tank and it would buck badly as I was pulling away from the gas station until I stopped, turned the car off and restarted it immediately. Then it would run just fine. I keep wondering if maybe I damaged some aspect of the emission control system by regularly overfilling it and this is now causing the problem. It's the same bucking and lurching just under different circumstances now.
There's 3 things that can be done to an OBDII ECU:
- Reflash. Totally resets all parameters including idle speed. Even if you reflash the same code (ecu map), you will remove any learned parameters.
- Realtime. This is what the ecu has done on its own to learn your detonation, idle quality, engine load, etc. You can also tweak some parameters here if you have the right tools, but not all of them like in a Reflash.
- Reset. This is in fact the same as removing the battery for a sufficient amount of time. The realtime parameters are discarded, and you are back to the base map. (Whatever was reflashed last.)
I don't have the tools or the knowledge to do a real time on my own, so I'll leave that to the dealer if it gets to that.
This is a very mystifying problem for sure. My brother who has been a mechanic (mostly Ford and GM) for 30 years as no idea either.
I have also been hearing a noise after backing up and driving forward. The tech heard the noise and says its the antilock brakes performing a self test. If the car sits for more than 15 minutes and then is put into reverse and then drive a self test is performed. The tech said most people don't hear the noise.
The technician stated that the rear trailing arm bushings are worn and will need to be replaced in order to get an inspection sticker. Will also need a four-wheel alignment.
Driving is 75% on interstate and 25% local and secondary roads in Maine.
I have a few questions.
Is this early, mileage wise, for the bushings to wear? Anyone else have the same situation?
What is/should be the average cost to repair?
Thanks for your help.
It's just a rubber bushing, though, right? Can't cost much to replace.
To be honest my concern would be what caused that premature wear? Alignment maybe?
Have you noticed any clunks, noises, changes in handling? Why not get down there and look yourself? Or ask the mechanic to point out the bushings and explain the evaluation of wear. (and be prepared for a creative explanation).
Maybe there is no fraud in your neighborhood on inspections, but in my area it's the norm. Especially in this economy.
I can never stress this loud enough to any car owner. Even if you do not work on your own car. Get a shop manual from the auto parts store and learn where parts are and how to determine if they are bad. When your mechanic is feeding you a line, fire him!
I seriously doubt you have a problem. We have units kissing 300K and all of these bushings are in good shape so far. But as I said, LOOK AT Them and see for yourself. Not sure, take it to a well known independent alignment shop and ask for a wheel alignment. Oh, I also seriously doubt you will fail inspection with this problem unless you have extremely worn tires or a steering wheel pulling big time! Don't have that problem do you. That makes me question this dealer that much more.
Another note. We just bought a new Toyota and it will stay in my shop for repairs! If jobbed out, it goes to a carefully screened shop out there! Dealers are well known for claiming stuff going wrong when nothing is. I had a laugh recently when I saw the first service for the new Toyota costing $200. Check/adjust the front and rear brakes, change the oil and rotate tires. Who do they think they are kidding? Yet, people continue to pay that kind of money for nothing! Guess it pays to be dishonest!
One final note. On an 87 Mitshibishi years ago, I caught a bad bushing when I had raised the rear end for inspection. I had begun shaking each part side to side and front to back looking for play. I caught one bad bushing when the whole wheel assembly moved about 3/4 of an inch from front to back. Shake on these things, push on them looking for anything that is loose or making noise. Grounded that vehicle on the spot.
You drive a lot, and I feel that it's technically possible for there to be a bushing issue-- but I agree with the others that fraud is more likely. They're fishing for revenue.
My state doesn't have inspections and occasionally, yes, this does result in some clunkers on the road that shouldn't be. But it does mitigate a lot of bogus 'repairs' in the name of safety or emissions.
Takes his late model Volvo in to the dealer this week, passes inspection just fine, except for "weak headlights". Won't pass without two new "headlight assemblies" for only $800. Now his lights are fine and he knows it, so he takes off the failed sticker (which describes the problem) and goes to another shop, non dealer. Headlights are fine of course, but they do find a "worn brake line", but that's only $250 to fix and you can only take so much time off from work to mess with this stuff, and $250 is lots less than $800, so he lets them do it. Who knows, maybe that brake hose did have a scuff on it. I should probably get down and at least see if it looks like a new line, but what's the point. Damage done, and in my local this is simply the norm.
For us guys that grew up with Gus' Model Garage this stuff is murder.
OK, next?.....
I reached 300,000 miles on my 2000 Forester.
I average 16,000 miles per year and I feel like that's too much.
And on the original Rear trailing arm bushings, no less!
(Still loving my 2006 Forester, with all of 22K)
Some of my inspection stories are pretty damn comical, at least they would be if they didn't end up costing me money, time, and 20 blood pressure points :-) Bottom line, if you don't know anything about cars then it's just fine, the mechanic fixed my dim headlights for just $800, everybody needs two new tie rod ends at 30K miles, that brake light that worked an hour ago really did need to be replaced for just $25, and you really can't just replace the halfway worn brake pads, gotta have new rotors and calibers, dontcha know?
... they do, however, do some compliance checkups in VA, I know because even my honest & thorough local inspector here (a Sunoco station) who I get all my inspections from got nicked by the state on something minor when they sent an inspector by, "undercover" (and even though I've never had any service done there, they have never even once dinged me on an inspection and suggested or required any work).
It passed inspection. Well, the garage got it to pass. They cleared the code, then drove it until they got ready signals from all the sensors and before misfire of P0420 showed up. Now I have two years to run down those problems.
I still get P0301 and P0420 (with new up/downstream sensors). I will try the cat sometime in the spring.
The engine ping on this car happens with softer acceleration too, (as well as others) when I am telling the engine to deliver power, and it can't seem to get with the program. Up hills as well. Slow to downshift to deliver power. No one has said anything about rattling heat shield - and this sounds vaguely like a tambourine.
SOA rep is saying something like the problem is caused by the engine detuning plus ethanol gas, and that it is not harmful. Not so sure about this. In reading the WRX forums, I have seen various comments that the factory tuning that comes with these cars is really poor (causing them to run lean and therefore cause engine ping). And what I read on the internet is that true engine ping is likely to cause engine damage over the long haul.
I would encourage you to confirm what the noise is one way or another. My dealer service center claimed they couldn't replicate the noise the first 3 times I had the car in.
Does your bros. in law have a shop he likes here? I've had decent luck actually with Airport Auto, just depends some on the mechanic you get.
Overall though, my coworkers experience with "dim headlights, $800" (shop 1) morphing into "worn brake line, while we're at it we should replace both $350" (shop 2) is the norm here. Kinda reminds me of when we first moved here. Wife called me at work, our 1995 Caravan wouldn't crank. The woman next door had the identical van, same problem, assured my wife it would only be $1000 for a new starter, new alternator, new cables, new battery. I guess just maybe she did need all that, but I cleaned my battery clamps and jumped it, seemed to do just fine for exactly $0.00.....
Now, please don't get me started on dentists.....
As for the P0301, I still think the wear on the spokes of the crankshaft sprocket are causing intermittent readings on the pickup sensor.
They also ran some kind of solvent in the engine to dissolve any carbon that might have built up that would have contributed to higher than normal compression. I really don't think there should be carbon buildup at 15k - especially since I don't use junk gas. If there's carbon - I wonder if it's because the fuel isn't combusting properly.
So - I am reserving judgement on all this until I drive the car a few days. I have read on the NASIOC forum that the 2008s were tuned "lean" - which, as I understand it, can lead to engine ping. I'm not an auto expert - but I've sure learned more than I ever wanted to know in the last year with this car.