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Thanks for the post. I need to get the engine out so I can properly work on it. This also give me the opportunity to address the piston slap.
I have a manual transmission do I still have turn the engine? Also how do I take off the 22mm bolt to get to the timing belt cover? Last time it was a bear to remove.
That bolt is torqued down pretty well. Once you have the engine out, the easiest way may be to put a flywheel holder (cheap tool you can get at Sears, Napa, etc) on the flywheel sprockets to hold the crankshaft steady while you bust it loose.
A friend showed me a neat trick he had learned while working on airplane engines: pull a spark plug, turn the engine so that the piston on that cylinder is at the bottom of its stroke, then insert a few feet of nylon rope into the cylinder. Turn the engine to compress the rope (make sure you are turning the engine in the same direction it needs to go in order to resist the torque) until the engine stops moving.... then pop the bolt off! :shades:
I have done it a couple times, including on my '96 Outback, and it worked perfectly both for removal and installation.
Have a machine shop overbore the engine, I believe for subaru this is +1mm. Buy +1mm pistons from either Subaru (I strongly do NOT recommend) or from a domestic piston supplier who stocks the type you need. (SOHC 2.5L, right?) I wouldn't spend a ton for a normal car; you aren't rally/road/drag racing. JE, Wiseco, etc. (Fun fact: last 2 pistons I've bought were Wiseco. However, they were for dirtbikes. )
PS, the reason I don't recommend Subaru branded pistons is because their wrist pin and skirt design is stupid. That's why some engines developed piston slap in the first place. This problem will be much more effectively solved by an aftermarket piston.
Option 2, the one I recommend: don't disassemble your existing longblock at all. Buy a lower mileage 2.5L SOHC longblock from a salvage yard, preferably under 50k miles. Install your intake manifold and accessories. If the yard only wants to sell a complete engine, I guess you take it.
Option 3: buy a new longblock from a Subaru dealership or aftermarket tuner. This is gonna be major $$$ but obviously the critical parts of the engine are literally brand-new.
Option 1 sound interesting. I replaced the rings on a 1985 Laser. That required popping the head, drop the oil pan and pushing the pistons out the top. So, I might be inclined to play around with this engine. My concerns are the special tools I might need and what is involved working on an horizontally opposed engine.
I think Wes did this kind of overhaul. If I get a longblock does my car still qualify for mileage longevity (331,875).
I didn't mess with the internals of the short block at all on mine, but it was quiet and smooth up to the day I wrecked it (220,000) so there was no need to go in there. I don't recall needing any special tools at all for mine (it was the DOHC 2.5L), other than a 12-point 14mm socket for the head bolts, but you must already have one since you replaced one before. The piston rod & crank bearing bolts likely use 12 and/or 14 mm. While I pulled the oil pan on mine, I don't recall the exact setup in there.
I don't remember when you last replaced the water pump on your car, but you might consider doing that along with the oil pump if you end up sticking with your current block. I think whether or not you choose to switch blocks should hinge on the condition of the head mating surfaces once you get it out and can inspect it.
If you google for '2000 forester 2.5L SOHC salvage' you'll get hits for all the major web-enabled autoparts salvage groups. They're not *that* webified though, so expect to ultimately end up talking on the phone to a dude at the specific yard who has it.
I need to get a perfect straight edge to check the block with. I wish this forum allowed me to upload pictures.
Wes, a lot longer than two hours to pull the engine. I want to grow up to be just like you {smile}.
Every dealer I talk to gives me a different answer !
Reason for asking is I am trying to decide what Subaru we can tow behind our RV motor home.
1) Can I tow a manual shift 2010 Forester all wheels on the ground? (I think YES).
2) Can I remove/insert the AWD fuse to swith it to FWD and then tow it on a dolly (Front wheels up), I get conflicting answers to this question.
3) Can I tow an automatic Subaru 4 wheels down if I insert/remove the AWD fuse making it FWD. Dealers say NO, but if it is switched to FWD why can't I tow it on a Dolly?
The other questions are more complex. The FWD fuse disengages the rear axle but I think the ignition might have to be switched on.
I think you'd need all 4 wheels off the ground to be safe.
I had a friend who towed his 2002 Impreza up from Anchorage several years ago (~360 miles) using a dolly and the fuse (he turned his ignition on, if I recall correctly, to make sure the solenoid circuit was engaged but I am not sure if this is necessary or not). A few months later, during the winter, he was headed up his driveway when a Chinook blew through town (making temperatures very warm and the snowpack extremely slippery) and his car could not make it up. He realized that while his front tire was spinning, he was getting nothing out of the back. So, he put it up on jack stands and sure enough, the rear portion of the AWD was not working at all because his center differential's clutch packs were shot. That tow was the only likely thing that would have caused it.
The manual transmission system can be towed with all four on the ground with no problem.
The owners manual covers some of these scenarios in the towing section. You can download one in .pdf form from the Subaru web site.
With a manual, everything is immersed in gear oil, so the wheels forcing shafts to turn is usually OK.
With automatics, without the engine running the pump, bearings get cooked. ATF isn't a very good lube, and without it circulating and being cooled, it quickly cokes and turns to grit. Therefore towing with 4 wheels down is limited to very slow speeds, and short distances. I'm not convinced that the fuse thing for the automatic's electronically controlled center diff fully disengages the link between front and rear. My owners manual doesn't talk about the fuse in towing situations, and simply says never tow with 2 wheels down or you will cook the diffy. Thinking about it, that does make sense, as the center diff uses ATF pumped thru passages from the main tranny section. Without it running, the rear bearings in the tail diffy section would cook even if the electronic clutch pack didn't attempt to couple and drive the rest of the tranny.
Net, I believe that you have to disconnect the drive shaft if you want the rear wheels on the ground (with fronts on a dolly) and you want to tow at speed.
Hope this helps.
Well, actually I learned as well. So in your friends case, towing with fronts up, rears down & electronics disengaged still damaged the clutch pack, but did not completely seize the unit as I suspected it might.
What you were saying makes sense. I was thinking about it strictly in terms of friction surface wear, but overheating that fluid would wreak havoc in there too.
- 1996 Subaru Legacy Outback, 2.5, 4 cylinder, 175000 miles
- Has toggle switch to change from AWD to Front Wheel Drive, very nice in summer time
Hm, I do have a blank :shades: spot in the dash for my '97 that could handle a switch.
This is one of those "at your own risk" situations.
1) A Forester with manual transmission can be towed all wheels down, it can't be towed with the front Two wheels on a dolly.
2) No way shape or form can an Automatic transmission Subaru be towed for long distances (Unless ther drive shaft is physically un-coupled).
So I got a 2007 Manual shift Forester with 29,500 miles on it - guess what? on my first trip out today I find it has a transmission noise when I gently touch the gas at above 55 mph. Kind of a growling, or high speed knocking noise. The noise is not there if I go into neutral and touch the gas pedal, only when I am in gear (3rd, 4th, or 5th).
Anyone got any thoughts on this ? Yes I am going to take it back to the dealership where I bought it.
RPM's can be anywhere from 2500 - 3500, throttle is just barely open.
No Turbo.
I am sure it's not engine related because when I go to neutral at say 65 mph the noise goes away and if I put on a touch throttle the noise does not appear, if in gear 3,4, or 5 under exact same conditions the growling/rattling noise appears. Loudest when driving at 65 - 75 mph with very little throttle.
Frequency seems to be about same as wheel/drive shaft speed. I feel that is is a worn gear somewhere because when no power is transfering from the engine (Coasting) noise is not there, but when just powering on noise is worst (Back-lash between some gears??), and when hard powering noise is there but not so bad (Power overcoming gear back-lash ???)
Gear whine is present at all speeds.
I'm not saying it is impossible that you have a transmission or other driveline issue, but I think it's also possible that you are hearing detonation. Detonation will not occur when revving in neutral but I will say that if it's occuring with light throttle in a higher gear it should also occur with heavy throttle in *any* gear.
Any noise when you give it 100% throttle?
I took it to the Subaru tech shop, he heard a few things and tightened up a couple of clamps and hose supports etc. and then we road tested it. On the road test I had problems making the noise again, so we assumed that there was some resonance noise that was fixed by tightening up clamps etc. The tech said if there were something like a bearing or gear damage he would definitely hear ti, it's not something you can miss. So we left assuming all was well - Not.
On the way home (15minutes) the noise cam back again, so it seems like something has to warm up before the problem can be heard. Will warm it up again and have the tech ride with me.
Your points - Detonation, most unlikely, I know this noise and it's nothing like that.
Gear wine - no, it is a definite growling with knocking noise.
The tensioner has a hydraulic piston and when it starts to fail it often does make noise primarily when warm and under load. A few people, however, have noticed noise only at cold-start. My opinion is that it depends on if the tensioner is locked in place or if it loses tension and compresses.
I make the same 600mile round trip all highway since the car was new. It consistantly got 32-33mpg even with snow tires in winter until this last trip.Variables all the same except in Oct. I had the 30,000miles tune up (spark plugs etc.) I got 29mpg, this time which concerns me. Any ideas?
Thank you.
If they install the wrong plugs or have them set to the wrong gap they could affect economy. You probably would have a rougher idle, too.
My personal guess: normal variance.
But you can dig into some of these things if you want. I would start with a fuel system cleaner to rule out bad fuel. Chevron Techron is the best by far. (Everyone will copy it when the patent expires.)
I have owned three "from the factory" car since 1985 and tracked their mileage through warranty expiration. I found that even though my commute was consistant, my mpg would vary +/- 4 mpg from the cumulative average.
As stated before, weather (humidity, air density, wind speed/direction), traffic, driving habits (subtle ones), fuel, vehicle condition (tire inflation, normal engine wear, and vehicle loading. Also, I learning during pilot ground school training the keeping the plane clean improved aero dynamic performance. Dirt adds drag.
Just keep in mind the going from 32/33 mpg to 29 mpg is not to bad. But, keep and eye on it over the next few fillups.
Thank You
1) Depending on the model and layout, it might be necessary to remove the battery in order to gain access to the front spark plug. Or, it might simply be policy in the shop to disconnect the battery during major servicing as a safety precaution. Doing so will act as a reset to the engine control computer, wiping out it's prior learning and optimization. To get the kind of mileage you report, you sound like a pretty conservative driver. The control system is interactive and adjusts fuel trim, timing and other factors to match your driving style and achieve max economy. A reset reverts back to the settings in a basic look-up table and can take up to a few hundred miles to readjust to optimum. And as mentioned, if the new plugs are not right (gap, temperature range, etc.), the computer is compensating and mileage might never come back up.
2) As mentioned, there are multiple seasonal blends of fuel commonly used, at least in my area. Changes in the mix of light volatale components and oxygenators/nitrogen are intended to reduce evaporation & combustion emissions, but also impact the burn characteristics & power. And again, your engine computer reacts to these changes (cooler input air temperature, changes in knock detection or oxygen sensed in the cat, etc.), and adjusts parameters accordingly. My mileage routinely drops in both of our cars in mid November, and springs back in early April. Much of this is mandated by the EPA and the requirements change depending on measured air quality. Maybe your fuel supply has recently changed?
I am thinking of trading/selling my CTS-V for a 2010/11 Legacy 3.6R to compliment the STi.
-mike
Subaru Guru and Track Instructor
Toss up between a 3.6R and a C300 4-matic. Tough call.
-mike
I've sampled them twice - once at an Audi event, another at a BMW event.
Of course you never know if the hosts let the air out of the tires or something! LOL
I actually rented a C300 RWD when I was in Cali last year and drove it for a day at Infineon Raceway. I was overly impressed considering it had 30k rental miles, all season tires and a 7EAT. I was rocking and rolling it and it didn't overheat the brakes, trans or car itself!
-mike
Subaru Guru and Track Instructor
It has been a while since I posted last... which is actually a good thing
Here are the details and specs. ...
2001 Outback Limited Wagon. 144,000 miles
Timing belt replaced at 100,000
Head Gaskets replaced at 106,000
The long and short of it..I do WHATEVER my Subaru dealer says to replace at all the intervals. They love me:
I went in for an oil change/state inspection in December. They noted that it looked like my head gaskets were leaking slightly. Then, after a few weeks, I noticed a little smoke up front of the car. The temp gauge was in the perfect zone. Yesterday, the temp gauge went up slightly for the first time EVER. So, I cranked the heat and went into my dealership this morning.
Here is what they wrote:
"Found temp difference in radiator flow from 165 to 120 degrees indicates clogged radiator. when engine coolant does not circulate, engine can overheat. Right side headgasket leaking coolant. Suggest radiator and headgasket replacement."
When I was leaving, the Service Manager mentioned that Subaru will NOT FLUSH any radiators. He suggested I go to a Jiffy Lube or Meineke to have them test it out. BUT mentioned that if they find a huge problem, they would have to replace IMMEDIATELY as opposed to my just driving it into the ground and hoping it does not overheat.
To be honest, I have about 3-4 months of NH cold and snow weather before I could afford those big expenses. Plus, I plan to call Subaru about my headgaskets leaking after only 38,000 miles.
Sorry to drone on...but hoping for some insight from the experts.
Should I have the *looks like brand new* radiator flushed first?
Should I just drive it and watch the temp gauge? (It was totally normal today)
Should I just save for a 2011 Outback? :P
Not that older cars aren't safe - but the big shift towards vehicles with anti-skid and anti-spinout control (Stability Control) is pretty impressive. Virtually every dealer has some type of stability control for the cars, some of which are as basic as acceleration slip reduction to prevent you from spinning your wheels from a stop, to the computer individually applying brakes to specific tires to help keep you moving in the right direction.
With all the snow and ice we've had in NJ for the last month or so, I've been seeing the little "VDC ON" icon pop up on the dash a few times - and I've never felt the car fishtail or anything of the sort. So, I'm glad it's working.
I'm curious when they're [the government] going to mandate five-point harnesses to replace our old, outdated seatbelt system of today.
So I need an AWD vehicle and the CVT sounds good. Anyone have experience with it?
If in-situ flushing doesn't fix the clog, consider removing the radiator and sending it to a real radiator shop for a more serious chemical treatment. Removing the radiator on these cars is not that terribly hard to do, but there are some little tricks. If you want to go this route, I can send you some pages from the Subi shop manual.
Odd.....they noted the head gaskets are leaking? That is only evidenced by oil in the coolant or coolant in the oil. The other evidence would come from misfiring! That would also throw a code!Come to think of it, you could even have exhaust coming out of the rad filler neck. Oil in the coolant appears like a milky substance when it happens. But it could also be from a cracked part. Like a block or head with the crack near a coolant passage. The other question becomes, have you been losing coolant? Have you ever overheat the engine? I mean steaming! If not then....Sorry, I have trouble buying the diagnosis.
Second, I see no one told you the themostat is 170 degrees! It does not open until the engine temp reaches at least 170 degress. The coolant temp will go up and down each time the thermostat opens and closes because alum radiators cool the hot liquid very effectively. Water boils at 212 degrees. So far, I see normal operation! As for "cleaning alum rads, don't. The material is very thin, soft and fragile. Opt for a new one, but only if you know for sure it is the problem. I have a 94 Subie fleet unit in MO with a replaced rad from O'Reiily's. Lifetime warranty! No problems after 25K service miles. I will add the OEM unit died after impact with two deer. As for the other 2 Subie fleet units, approaching 300K, they both still have the OEM rads.
If they are sighting oil on the outside of the heads and valve cover gaskets as " head gaskets leaking" it is actually coming from the valve cover gaskets! Do not replace them, just tighten the bolts slightly. Some leakage is going to be the norm as the engine ages because of increased blow by gases internally from normal wear and tear. It also happens because the engine is a H4! Gravity makes it easier to get out the bottom side. I do not recommend changing the valve cover gaskets unless you have a serious leak because of the increased blow by gases from age. If you do change the valve cover gaskets, the higher pressure will be looking for the next weak link in terms of seals or gaskets. You could blow out the oil galley/oil separator seal, rear main which would force you to pull the transmission to repair. I will add the 2 Subies in MO with almost 300K still have the OEM valve cover gaskets. They are open road units with mostly highway service.
pathomax, I suspect you have a dealer problem, not a car problem.
I personally hate dealers because they usually force their mechanics to sell unneeded service! Ask other local Subie owners were they go. Other than brakes, tires, oil changes and spark plugs you should be pretty much good for 200K. That assumes the last timing belt change included crank and cam oil seals! Check your invoice, if they were not changed, they expect you to return for that problem!
I think you could be onto something with the valve covers. However, the EJ series valve cover gaskets are inexpensive and easy to replace, so I would consider replacing them as a first step. It is also worth mentioning that they require a careful amount of torque; too much and they will leak, just as surely as too little.
You may also be onto something with the temperature gauge being normal, as that area of Subaru does indeed 'hunt' through a normal range more than most modern vehicles I've seen. (Most cars the needle is unmoving once operating temp is reached, despite gridlock, highway or in town driving.)
However, I would not immediately conclude that the car is free of a cooling system issue. Head gaskets are obviously notorious on that model year, but water pumps and thermostats can fail as well. Aluminum radiators generally leak if they're going to fail. Usually if they clog you have a serious problem in the engine that manifests itself in another way (like a blown head gasket).
I think these are minor quibbles. Again, great post.
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