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Comments
I bought my first Subaru ('03 Forester) just three months agon and am also adjusting to the "noise" from the I4. I would have to agree with the tech, if my experience with Japanese engines these past ten years give me enough credibility in your eyes.
The bigger makes I'm familiar with (Honda, Toyota) do seem to have engines that run smoother and quieter. In contrast is the boxer engine. I noticed it right away but was comfortable with it and have been comfortable with it the last few months. It's been close to 30 degrees where I live and it does sound louder, but all-in-all I consider it normal and part of the adjustment of owning a subaru because of the boxer engine.
I can sympathize with your concern. Ownership of this brand is a very foreign (and thus - new) experience and I react with concern as well since there is no baseline against which I can judge this vehicle within the brand. But reading your post and others similar to it and the responses, my expectation is it's normal.
IdahoDoug
Stop scratching your heads and pull out a tape measure. :-)
IdahoDoug
I had a '97 OBS with the 2.2L DOHC, and the valves clattered and chattered like that every time it was cold, just for a minute or two, then it went away.
Every Subie I have ever had prior to that one did the same thing, except the sound stayed all thru the drive with the oldest ones.
It certainly is not faintly dissonant - if you have the radio off you will hear it.
BUT, it is perfectly routine for the engines Subie makes, and cold definitely makes it worse. if you live in the southwest, you probably will not hear the noise at all during the summer.
And my experience is that the engines last forever, so clearly the noise is not doing anything detrimental.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
-mike
I'll tell my friend to do that as soon as he gets his Forester back from the shop!
Ken
-juice
Boxers have, by design, perfect 2nd order balance. That's why even though it's a big four banger, at 2.5l, it still doesn't use balance shafts. An in-line four of that size with no balance shafts would probably shake itself right out of the engine bay!
That said, they do have a characteristic growl. You can hear a Subie coming. A Honda/Toyota/Mazda/Nissan basically sound the same, like a sewing machine. And not all are quiet, for the most part they save that for the Lexus and Acura models.
The 2.5l is bored out from the same block as the 2.2l, so the cylinder walls aren't as thick and it'll be more noisy. Any big 4 cylinder will be, basically.
Look at the H6 - it's super-smooth and a lot more quiet. I had to look at the tach to tell it was running.
Now, back to the H4, and Leo asks the question at the perfect time. Would synthetic help? I think so. It flows better, and doesn't get as thick when it's cold. When you start your engine, it takes about 7 seconds to establish oil pressure. Even after that, the oil isn't flowing very well until it's warmed up, so try to avoid putting much load on this (actually, any) engine before it's warm. Note that BMW has a variable redline on some engines, it's as low as 4000 rpm when the engine is cold.
But yeah, synthetic flows better and doesn't get as thick when it's really cold. That will quiet the valve clatter sooner, at least in theory.
Another alternative is an engine block heater. It's a factory option and fairly easy to install, from what Pat said in a chat (he installed one on his GT, lives in frigid Canada).
Good luck.
-juice
Synthetic oil trumps conventional oil in every way. It resists breakdown better, holds a more constant viscosity over a broader range of temperature, less likely to form sludge. There are tons of reports of owners that used synthetic oil, tore down the engine well after 100K miles and found it to be sparking clean.
The only downside to synthetic is price. It costs 2-3X more per quart than dino oil.
It's a misconception that synthetic oil is "thinner". Synthetic oil is available in a wide range of viscosities. What you probably are refering to is seal leakage from using synthetic in an older engine. Sometimes, older engines have build up from conventional oil helping to plug up faulty seals. Using synthetic can unlodge these plugs and cause the seals to leak.
Ken
Conventional Pro. Inexpensive. New SL Classification has some synthetic in by nature in the lighter weights, and much better anti-sludging capabilities than in the past, better on seals (Causes slight swelling). CON harder to start in cold, leaves deposits inside engine, doesn't have the long range capabilities of synthetic; slightly higher gas mileage.
Synthetic. Pro: Keeps inside of engine cleaner; can be used for longer intervals due to higher detergents and cleaners as well as the oil itself; slightly lower gas mileage (1-2 MPG); less likely to sludge or fail. Cons: costs up to 4 times the cost of conventional; doesn't help seals (although it doesn't hurt them, it won't plug up small pinholes and leaks out quicker).
If you're going only 3 months or 3,000 miles, synthetic would be a waste of money. If you go 5,000 miles or 5 months then it could even out. You shouldn't have seal problems on a new vehicle with even a pure synthetic.
On my older Subbie, I now use a 50% mix of high mileage oil and synthetic and go 4,000 miles or 6 months which ever comes sooner. This works very well for me. What you should actually use is still a subject of debate.
Cheers Pat.
I've never had to replace one in a Subaru, but I have had one fail in a Toyota Camry. If I remember correctly, the part was several hundred dollars, but the installation time was short.
Thanks again. Leo
Mike
Furthermore, as the cold weather sets in again, I am starting to experience yet another problem that I had last winter but went away during the summer. When you are engaging first gear the clutch will often make a whining sound like something isn't engaging and you sort have to baby the car into gear. The dealership has adjusted the clutch several times but this hasn't done a darn thing either.
I am reaching my limit. The car is less than two years old and was bought to replace my VW after I watched it get towed for the fourth time in one year (it was less than five years old). I bought the Subaru specifically so I wouldn't have any of these problems and I am feeling very let down and very frustrated. The guy at my dealership keeps telling I shouldn't worry because these are great cars - but that doesn't really solve my problem!
Any ideas????
Is this normal?
Thanks.
If the thing is just hissing and hissing like a snake, I would take that to the dealer to have it looked at!
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
And you are right - I think the quote for the switch was in excess of $300. I took it off myself (one connector, one screw - mounted to the shift lever arm on the transmission), used a dremel to cut thru the potting compound, and rebuilt the corroded internal contacts.
Most likely the problem is in the internal valve body or shift linkage, as he described it will sometimes engage when fiddled with.
Steve
I have been told by the dlr that the engine is covered unter power terrain warranty.
Does any one know :-
1. Will subaru will pay for the towing charges (300$)
2. Will Subaru pay for the rental car cost
3. Will Subaru get the car delivered from the dealership to my home (about 500 miles away)
Never knew that a subie engine could break down in 36K. The car has been serviced and very recently had the 30K service. The servicing dlr had commented that the car was in gr8 condition.
Thanks
Anyone have this experience or have suggestions?
Jesse: wheel bearings. I'd be willing to bet on it.
mgk: I'd also call 800-SUBARU3 to see if they can reimburse you for the tow. I know they do for customers that have Subaru Gold, and you might want to ask about buying that now if they'll make it retroactive to cover that towing. It also covers a loaner.
The loaner might be up to the dealership, but I'd certainly ask. I doubt they'll deliver, though.
mike: I noticed you asked the same question in another topic, there were some suggestions there, check it out.
-juice
bit
-juice
I'm looking at a 2002 base Outback w/ approx 9K miles and a 2001 Legacy L wagon w/ approx 19K miles, both are 5 speeds. The sellers (both are dealers) are asking $19K for the Outback (but I'm sure I can get it for less, since they've had it for a while) and $16K for the Legacy.
Are there particular problems I should be looking for with either of these, or is there a reason why I should avoid either of them altogether?
Also, if I bought the Legacy, I'd want to add the CD player and remote entry/alarm. Does anyone have experience installing either of them? How hard is it (I've installed aftermarket stereos before, but never an alarm system. I'd get the Subaru version, so I'd think that would make it easier)?
Thanks for your help.
I'd be curious as to why the Outback was sold so quickly. And $19k is close to the price for a new one. For that much, I'd buy new for about $20.5k, or even buy a new Legacy L Special Edition, which even has a moonroof for under $20 grand.
Since both are 5 speeds, take a thorough test drive on a cold day. Try the clutch to see if it's smooth. Turn off the radio and listen for any strange driveline noises, i.e. bad differentials or wheel bearings.
The good news is any flaws stand out like a sore thumb, so you'll likely notice them. A smooth running, quiet car is very likely a good buy.
You can call 800-SUBARU3 and ask if recalls were completed. I'm not sure how much of the car's service history they'll share, but ask.
Good luck and stick with us, we'll help you in case any problems do creep up in the future. Both are still under the B2B warranty, too.
You can E-Bay a 6CD changer from a WRX for $250 or less. I bought two. Installation on a 2002 Legacy was not easy, but not hard either. If you end up doing this I'll share some tips later. I installed one on a 1998 Forester, too, and that was much easier. You can do a Legacy in under 2 hours. The WRX radio is plug-and-play, the harness fits perfectly. It's a double DIN unit and bolts right in, you just lose the storage pocket under the stock stereo.
-juice
I'd use Edmund's TMV tool and price out a 2003 Legacy for your area. If it's close, bring it with you and bargain with the dealer. Since they make way more profit on used cars, they should be willing to drop the prices to be competitive.
As far as I know there aren't any major problems with the two vehicles. At one model year, I think 2002, the OB got bigger disc brakes. Subaru tends to upgrade features year over year so make sure you've captured that difference.
Ken
Ken
-juice
-Colin
Ken
Wondering if I should open a case at the dealer just in case.
Steve: FWIW, it doesn't seem to affect durability, just the smoothness of operation.
-juice
I think the '02 got the rear LSD standard, that was it. The AWP was still an option with the same price, but it no longer included the viscous rear limited slip differential because that became standard in 2002.
OK, got it straight now.
-juice
it should, I agree. but it can't, due to the traction AWD offers and the strength of the 5 speed gearbox. (read: lack thereof) something needs to be engineered to give, and it's the clutch. the only problem is balancing the line between a clutch that is stout enough to not chatter for normal users, but limp enough to lay down and die when someone tries a 4WD burnout or speed-shifting into 2nd gear...
-Colin
In other words, go to the root of the problem - speed shifting and burn outs that eat trannies.
Just seems like a more intelligent solution that doesn't make the masses pay for a few teens who take too many joy rides.
-juice
-mike
Ralph
How about a system that ejects the driver from their seat when they try and do stupid things like 5000RPM clutch drops. ;-)
mike -- I had a feeling we'd hear from you. :-)
Ken
I tried Hella H4+30 bulbs, marketed as "Xenon" because they supposedly have a trace of Xenon gas in the filament. They also market them as being 30% brighter. While that was true, they also lasted less than a year. Both burned within weeks of each other. The stock bulbs last for 5-10 times as long.
So I went back to stock. Not worth it if you keep having to change bulbs, or worse, get caught out on a road trip far from home with one burned out. 50% less light!
-juice
Someone in another topic was claiming that 6000 WRX trannies had fried, which sounded like nonsense so I did some research. I found only a handful, almost all very heavily modified cars, too.
Any how, I also found an article that claimed the 2003 clutch had some sort of force-limiting valve on it, so that the clutch would only absorb so much force even in high-rpm launches.
Supposedly the 2004s will get an entirely new clutch.
Maybe someone else knows more about this?
I did find something interesting - every single one of the tranny failures I found was for a 2002, before the clutch valve. 2003s are newer of course, but I thought that was worth mentioning.
-juice