Subaru Crew Problems & Solutions

locke2c · January 2003

5w30... sorry for the confusion. I actually started with Syntec but had been using Mobil1 for a while and tried the 5w30 Mobil1.

The M3 drinks 10w40 Mobil1. BMW-branded special formula. They've also got 10w30 and 0w40 on hand at my dealer... (think the new M3 uses the 0w40, not positive though.)

-Colin

kens · January 2003

Greg,

Good question. I was refering to 5 vs. 10 with regular dino, however.

I too have found that 10W30 Mobil1 makes for quieter cold starts.

Ken

nippononly · January 2003

my '97 OBS was still fairly new, the exhaust shield would rattle against the Y-pipe causing the sound you are describing, and it would be especially prone to do that at low idle...you can have the dealership move it away from the pipe, and the sound will be eliminated. Whether you do that or not, if that is the cause of the sound it is not doing any mechanical harm.

cdiven · January 2003

My headgasket had a small leak on the drivers side I could smell it when I shut off the car I had 65,000 miles on the car subaru wouldnt help me with any of the expenses I took it to a non subaru dealer because I had to pay for all of this expense. $1100 is a large expense now that I see more people have this same problem I wouldnt be surprised if this shouldnt of been a recall. I love my 2000 outback limited very much but because of this expense so early I dont have much faith in a car that should last wont buy one again! subaru dosent stand behind their cars.

mrk610 · January 2003

Wow seems like the cold weather is bringing out the subie engine noise .I have had the knock since about 6k miles .I now have 21k on it . 02 obw base . My noise has gotten louder and has stayed around longer lately. I have finally gotten my dealer to say that the noise is not normal . They say that they will change the timing belt tensioner and related parts . My car makes very little noise when idling but boy what a racket when you put it under load . Hopefully the replacement will take care of my noise . I have all my appendages crossed that this is the fix.
I run 5w30 mobil 1 with subie filters. I am also thinking about changing to 10w30 next oil change.

Mike k

joybell · January 2003

No, my Loyale does not knock when it is cold. I have never heard of that! And I don't even treat it nice. I don't warm it up....just start it and go. The transmission is a little stiff, the engine a little sluggish but after about a KM it is fine. On my trips to town, it never even warms up past the cold mark on the thermostat. I don't bother worrying about oil types. After I hit 100,000 km I didn't do the oil change as often either...just when it gets dirty. I rarely have to add any oil either. The only knocking noise I ever heard was "fixed" by replacing an oil seal, and that was a long, long time ago.

paisan · January 2003

Perhaps we are not all talking about the same thing. All boxers make valve noise til they are warm. I think we are just talking about different things. If yours is truely silent on cold startup, then you should box it up and ship it out to SOA/FHI cause I bet they'd like to check it out!

-mike

joybell · January 2003

...so maybe the engine "noise" is just normal to me. ;-)

locke2c · January 2003

aha! see, Mike's got a timing belt tensioner problem just like I described a few posts back.

not a rare issue, I'm afraid.

-Colin

stevek · January 2003

I think the fuel injectors do make a bit of a pulsating noise also, maybe that is what some of you hear?

nygreg · January 2003

if synthetic flows better I should go right to 10W40 and forget 10W30. Realistically, I will go to 10W30 soon and maybe next year I will move to 10W40. My knocking is either the bearings or solid lifter(s).

Monica - Sometimes I think the more I take care and worry about my cars, the more things go wrong. Case in point - I am being very careful with the tires on the OB (rotations, pressure, etc) and I now have my third leak in 2 years. I don't think I have had 3 leaks in 20+ years of driving. I'm still young, really.

Greg

ateixeira · January 2003

I have a belt that squeels right when I start the (extremely cold) Forester. Of course it's too cold for me to check it out, adjust the belt tension, and of course it might go away if it warms up. What do you folks think?

She's running beautifully, no other symptoms.

-juice

nygreg · January 2003

I wouldn't worry. If it running good, let it be.

Greg

ateixeira · January 2003

1st: see if you can trace where it's coming from. Might be an exhaust heat shield or something simple to fix.

Does it only happen when it's cold? I bet the extreme cold has made certain metals contract more than usual, too.

I don't think it's fair to make a blanket statement about Subaru like that, they've taken care of many people here.

-juice

kens · January 2003

juice,

You might want to check the accessory belts to rule out an easy one. You can get to them easily by removing just a few screws. Below is a link to doing an underdrive pulley mod, but you'll see photos on the accessory belts if you scroll down a bit:

http://www.scoobymods.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=163

I had a squeeking belt in my Forester when cold and it turned out that the bolt holding the alternator had snapped. The alternator/PS pump belt was getting loose and caused the noise.

Ken

bluesubie · January 2003

My dealer couldn't fix squealing belts on the OB. First adjusted the tension (last spring) and then replaced the belts (last summer). By late fall they were squealing again.

-Dennis

ateixeira · January 2003

Thanks, I'll read those instructions and then check the tension on the belts once I get the feeling back in my numb, cold hands.

-juice

joybell · January 2003

comes from owning Fords, switching to Subies, and thinking something has got to go wrong sometime?

celica115 · January 2003

SOA is willing to listening to my case every time I call. They do follow up the problem of their cars. Even there is problem sometime, I still love my Subie. Where else can you find such good handling = $$$ production car in US? Only Subaru!

Luk

fibber2 · January 2003

The manual calls for a lighter low temp pour weight (5w vs. 10w) based on the idea that thicker oils will not circulate fast enough to protect during startup. But you guys are suggesting that the thicker oil will protect better once it is circulating by virtue of it filling the gaps in cold metal moving parts better than the thinner oil.

So it comes down to determining when the most wear damage occurs. If it is during the first say 15 seconds (which is what I was always told), then the thinner oil gets there faster and is better. If it is during the first 5 minutes, then the thicker oil may prevent damage until expansion closes the tolerances.

Does that sum it up?

Steve

locke2c · January 2003

actually what I'm saying is that synthetic 5w30 flows so well cold that it drains down and little of it remains on the top half of the cylinder head, leading to excessive cold start valvetrain noise.

the most wear, unquestionably, is the first few seconds an engine is running before oil pressure is established.

-Colin

fibber2 · January 2003

is a double edged sword. First to drain down, but first to pump back up.

Steve

kens · January 2003

Exactly. Unfortunately, there aren't much data on which causes less damage. I'm sticking with 10W30 as I prefer quieter startups.

BTW, since I have Colin here also, I just wanted to point out that the Phase II engine doesn't use solid lifters. I pointed out something Colin wrote a while back on another Crew topic that explains the Phase II engine very well.

Ken

nygreg · January 2003

I Just bought 12 quartz of mobil 1 10W-30. But, I only have 1500 miles since the last change. I might wait a few weeks. I still ask, synthetic flows better than dino (as you observed this week, Steve) so how can they both be rated 5W?

Greg

kens · January 2003

Greg,

Good question. Perhaps the difference has to do with flowability vs. viscosity.

From the website:
http://www.performanceoiltechnology.com/tenmythsaboutsyntheticlub- rication.htm

Myth #2: Synthetics are too thin to stay in the engine.

Untrue. In order for a lubricant to be classified in any SAE grade (10W-30, 10W-40, etc) it has to meet certain guidelines with regard to viscosity ("thickness").

For example, it makes no difference whether it is 10W-40 petroleum or 10W-40 synthetic, at -25 degrees centigrade (-13F) and 100 degrees centigrade (212 degrees F) that oil has to maintain a standardized viscosity or it can't be rated a 10W-40.

But the look at the flow data here (don't know what units they represent, however):

http://www.vtr.org/maintain/oil-overview.html

The synthetics always have higher pour values than regular.

Can anyone else shed light on this question?

Ken

locke2c · January 2003

Ken-- were you just mentioning that bit about lifters or did someone talk about them recently and I missed it?

But it's true... actually regardless of age, no EJ series single-overhead cam has ever had lifters. They all use a roller-tipped rocker arm that rides directly on the cam on one side, and acts directly on the valve retainer on the other side. There is one rocker arm per intake valve and one per pair of exhaust valves. (this rocker is larger, of course, and has a Y shape.)

Perfect shot of it right here from Cobb Tuning.
http://www.cobbtuning.com/images/sohc-engine03.jpg
(complying with Edmunds' policy I'm not embedding that image, and the source page is here.)

-Colin

idahodoug · January 2003

From a conversation with an engineer at Mobil a few years ago:

Dino oil molecules are random length chains, the chains break more easily because they're simply whatever came out of the ground and survived all the processing. Synthetic oil molecules are specifically engineered as to length and size (long and uniform) and designed specifically to resist fragmenting with use. As a result, start up wear before oil pressure is established is reduced because these long chains tend to "lay" across small bearing surfaces rather than flow down to the oil pan overnight.

So, I feel you're better protected on cold startups with synthetics. This is also why the famous Consumer's Union test of oils in a taxicab fleet showed no wear difference. They intentionally ignored the huge wear advantage of synthetics on cold startups like 99% of the public would experience. (The taxicabs were never allowed to cool down during the test - running 24/7).

Also, with all the discussion about cold temps and starting, people keep quoting "wind chill temps". Be advised that wind chill does not act on a car sitting overnight like it does on a warm blooded human for which the wind chill index was created. If it's 15 degrees F outside all night long, your car's engine will be the same temp whether it was parked in a 100mph wind or in a flat calm.

IdahoDoug

mtownson · January 2003

Hello everyone. I have a 2003 Forester X auto with around 6,000 miles. It seems to me that the wind noise around the front door windows seems excessive, especially for such a new model. Previously I had a 1999 Forester and I never remember noticing such a high level of wind noise. Has anyone else with a 2003 noticed this issue? Any solutions?

idahodoug · January 2003

Due to laws aimed at reducing auto parts fraud, Subaru must label any transmission that did not leave the factory attached to a car or as a complete unit a 'rebuilt'. Assuming this tranny came from Subaru's parts channels, it is virtually a new unit and was handbuilt by highly skilled Subaru trained techs. Consider it a custom handbuilt unit.

If it was from the general parts industry, it would be a salvaged transmission that was rebuilt by someone's Uncle Bob. If you can look at your reciept and find a Subaru part number by the unit then you're OK. I cannot imagine the dealer would get a tranny from a source other than Subaru for warranty work - I doubt Subaru would even reimburse the dealer this way.

IdahoDoug

kens · January 2003

Colin -- Steve mentioned in another topic that the Phase II had lifters and I pointed out a post from you where you had corrected my understanding.

IdahoDoug -- Wind chill on a car! That's kind of funny. But then again, we're always anthropromorphosizing our vehicles, aren't we?

Ken

pnassmac · January 2003

Go back to your dealer and have them inspect the seals around the window.

My 03 X's seals were replaced and window was re-aligned after I noticed a window noise problem; I would describle the noise as a hissing. Anyway, that problem was solved.

It's been several months since the fix and it seems odd, but there are times when the wind noise seems excessive compared to other vehicles I've owned. The hissing is gone, but the noise is more a muted blustering.

It's not overbearing in my opinion, but it is noticeable and most likely normal for this model.

nygreg · January 2003

if the 2.5 doesn't use any lifters, can the "knocking" just be the lash when cold and no weight oil will really help (maybe just minimize)?

Greg

romy4 · January 2003

IdahoDoug,
Thanks so much for this information. The receipt did have a Subaru Parts no. Your explanation makes a lot of sense and is along the lines of what I was hoping to hear from SOA. I feel lots better now.

kens · January 2003

The downside to frameless windows is that they can let in more wind noise. I find that the noise is greater when there is a cross wind -- perhaps it's the same with you?

Ken

mtownson · January 2003

Yes, I do notice more noise in crosswinds and also more in very cold weather. Possibly the roof rack generate more noise than typical cars.
Thanks

kens · January 2003

mtownson,

Just for grins, check the orientation of your cross bars. In the past, some dealers had installed them facing the wrong way -- the wider, rounded edge should face forward (imagine the cross section of a teardrop with the big end forward).

Ken

fibber2 · January 2003

Please don't beat me!!! I repent.... ;-)

I used the terms 'solid lifters' and 'hydraulic lifters' to describe a fixed valve lash system (solid) as opposed to engines (like most American classic designs) that used a variable pumped spacer that keeps lash constant during thermal expansion.

In another thread I said that older Sub designs used hydraulic lifter, 2.5ej phase II uses solids. What I should have said is that the newer engines dropped the hydraulic spacers and now have fixed adjusters.

Did I get it right???

Steve

schlisner · January 2003

This last weekend I noticed that the lens over my right-side running light had shattered. And I was wondering what internet site offered the best sales/service. Unfortunately, the parts department at the local Subaru dealership mark-up the parts and is staffed by rude and inept people. Thanks for your help,
Eirik

bluesubie · January 2003

ateixeira · January 2003

Also e-mail parts@libertysubaru.com for a price quote, they were the cheapest last time I checked.

-juice

paisan · January 2003

How was the delivery time from libertysubaru.com?

I need to get the tie-rods for the SVX so I'm pricing around and getting shipping times.

-mike

ateixeira · January 2003

It came within a week. I ordered a rubber cargo liner for the wife's Legacy, and a leather shift knob. Both arrived with no damage, too.

-juice

ateixeira · January 2003

The window angle can be adjusted, let the dealer have a look at it.

Also, try lowering the window and then raising it again, see if you get a better seal when you do that.

Yep, the cross bars are like airplane wings, the sharp edges should face back.

-juice

schlisner · January 2003

Thanks for the help. I gave them both an email.

-eirik

3subeowner · January 2003

I'm reading with great interest the experiences of others with head gasket problems. I am now the unhappy owner with a '98 Outback Ltd 30th Anniv Edition(92M miles) AND a '01 Legacy GT (51M miles), both with leaky head gaskets. In the case of the GT, it is under warranty and goes to the dealer tomorrow for repair. The '01 is leaking coolant from the cylinder head near the exhaust port. I started smelling it ever so slightly last week, but saw definite smoke and an empty reserve coolant tank today, after filling it a couple of days ago. It still has coolant in the radiator, but it will be dropped off at the dealer's now for them to repair. For the '98 Outback, the problem started a month ago with the slight smell, then a severe overheating problem, but no detectable leak as there is with the GT. So I parked it until my auto mechanic husband could find time to diagnose it and start the repair. The '98 Outback has a definite compression leak from the head gaskets with possible damage to the cylinder heads. I am fortunate that the family mechanic will be able to do the repairs himself and am prepared to pay around $300-$500 in parts from Subaru, but will save with his labor. We have written to Subaru asking their opinion. I thought it unusual to have head gasket problems under normal driving conditions, especially with the newer model. Neither car is used for towing. Both cars are well-maintained.

lucien2 · January 2003

Mike what pressures are you running in the SP500s? I've got 35 all around right now (32/30 is the OEM rec) but turn in still feels soft compared to the S-03. I am thinking of bumping up to 38-40 but I don't want to cause excessive wear either. Have any input?

paisan · January 2003

I feel horrible, I have no idea what pressure i'm running! I guess I have whatever pep-boys put in it when I had em mounted! My guess is they set em for stock pressure so I'm actually running a bit lower now with the temps being about 50 degrees less than when they set them.

My guess is that you could safely run em up at 38-40. Just see how they are bulging. Mine are pretty flat right now. I should actually go and put some more air in them, probably do that after I get the tie rods done, I don't want to put more pressure on the tie rods than I have to.

-mike

racheluk · January 2003

Hello Juice and all:

I've not visited the thread in quite a while, but in the past you've been very helpful to me when buying a new Outback Sport and mourning my totalled Forester. The Outback is now 16 months old, has 24,000 miles and in general runs and handles great. Incidentally, I too have too much wind noise and need to get the window seals checked - although last time I was at the dealer they fobbed me off with "We test drove it and we don't hear anything," etc. But when it rains there is always moisture under that seal!

Anyway, the last 10 days the car has developed a rattle on the passenger side which sounds like a snare drum - it's pretty loud -and seems to be connected to the vent/air system, as when i shut off the vents i can't hear it. A little more worrying is that when I steer to the right it gets louder, and when I steer to the left it goes away. I suspect it's something loose in the air system but when i remembered I could ask those of you in this forum, I thought I'd take that opportunity.

Thanks very much for your thoughts.

Rachel

nippononly · January 2003

steering affects it, then it is more likely something in the steering system, like the CV on the right side, maybe? The car is pretty new for that, though, unless you have been doing off-roading and going up high curbs fast and stuff like that...

...are you sure the changes in sound when turning aren't just coincidental with something else?

shad12 · January 2003

3subeowner: I would be interested in the response you receive from subaru. The head gaskets went out on my '98 outback with 94000 miles on it. The dealer response is that it is not particularly unusual. The aluminum heads and block does tend to be heat sensitive and warps after a while. I was told better the gasket for $2200 than the engine for $8000. So, apparently this is normal.

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