Dodge,Ford,Chevy------who wins?

zx2fan · June 1999

Hey

About a "fast" truck.... get a Lightning... that'll end that lame "6.0 crap" for good....

That is the fastest production truck available. Period. So you can take all the torqueless GM pickups and rev the crap out of them to get your [non-permissible content removed] toasted by a truck that, stock, is a second and a half faster than yours. Happy racing.

f250nut · June 1999

Before I bought, I researched the chev 6.0 and Ford 6.8's for several months (and Dodge 8.0). All in 3/4 tons. I drove them all several times except the chev - drove it once and no more. After seeing and feeling how the bigdogs drove and rode, the 6.0 chev although was peppy around town, sure was gutless on a hill. The chev dealer wouldn't even let me hook up to my travel trailer (21'). Was he afraid I really wouldn't like the performance then?? The other dealers let me take their trucks for a thorough check. To make a short story long, I went for the SD250 V10, 4.3 SC. Got 3,000 miles on it and so far has toasted my brother-in-laws 1998 3/4 ton sludgerado 454 and I'm looking for a chev 6.0 but haven't seen any around - just Dodge and Fords. I guess that says something too.... Sorry if it sounds like brand bashing, I'm really not trying to, just what I found out!

quadrunner500 · June 1999

I agree with Kcram that the 6.0L GM 2500 is closer to the F250 Light Duty. They both have independent front suspension setups in the 4x4's also.

Still, it's more than just stiffer springs, ...axles, bearings, hubs, heads, tranny are also beefier.

The 6.0L may be gutless on the bottom, but the tranny has a tow/haul mode to keep it in the fat part of the powerband. No problem on hills I'm sure, and no hill lasts forever anyway.

But if you do get passed on the way up the hill in the GM, there is still something the GM can pass that the others cannot. (The gas station)

quadrunner500 · June 1999

F150 Lightning is only a 2wd. Need a tow line?

ande157 · June 1999

I'm not sure where C/D got their load figures from. The sticker in the door jam of my F-250 SD V10 shows a GVWR of 8800 lbs. The title of transfer from the factory to the dealer had the shipping weight of my truck as 5605 lbs. (the C/D article claimed their SD weighed 6000 lbs. Obviously it did not). Simple math: 8800lbs-5605lbs=3195lbs, the actual load capacity of an F-250 V10 4x4. The PSD adds another 400lbs. or so to the weight of a SD, and that might be what C/D was quoting. In any event, the C/D article was incorrect on this score in their test. One more reason to never trust everything you read about trucks in a car mag truck test. As for acceleration, it is no surprise that the Chevy out accelerates the SD at higher speeds; it's a bit lighter and the 6.0 V8 is tuned to produce its peak torque at a higher RPM, resulting in a higher HP output. The Ford V10 is tuned to produce it's peak torque (a higher number than the 6.0 Chevy) at a lower RPM, resulting in a lower peak power figure.

dave40 · June 1999

Excuses,Excuses!

sd99 · June 1999

No excuses dave40. A real pick-up truck lover would take a truck engine over a car engine any day. Never bought my truck to race with, I use my boat for that.

f250nut · June 1999

I agree sd99, but I wouldn't expect to get much of a truck motor out of the old technology overhead valves and pushrod design. I'm still in awe over the overall Triton design/performance truck motor.
I keep hearing that the 2000 V10's are getting even better heads producing 300hp/430torque. Has that been published by Ford or just speculation at this point?
Thanks.

quadrunner500 · June 1999

Maybe old technology in pushrod design, but it's still more efficient than the Triton at this point, witness the fuel economy comparisons for trucks.

And wound out for high performance, the LS1 in the F-body's are still beating those Mustang pony cars, even the expensive ones wearing the Cobra emblem.

quadrunner500 · June 1999

Of course, if the above post really mattered, then Ford trucks and Mustangs would not be out-selling their GM counterparts.

cdean · June 1999

kcram:
Re: 505

The Chevy's aren't built fullsized from the get-go, but dodge and Ford are? I think Ram uses the same platform for 1/2 thru 1 tons, just like Chevy. the fender flares you dislike are options. the increased number of springs, heavier frame rails, larger tires, heavier axles, those are all requirements you get with the 1 ton ratings. Does that still make it a wannabe?

Re: 509
Ford and Dodge showing the versatility while Chevy only interested in making money off the public? A quite biased picture you've painted (chuckle, chuckle). I better make sure Chevy's not stealing candy from kids in the park also....

Let me try my take. Dodge and Ford (not necessarily riding white horses) have current designed heavy duty trucks with proven diesels, that with only minor and easy design changes, are easy to promote for a large contract . Winning the contract would give excellent marketing for the "tough truck" title.

Chevy, on the other hand, (and not necessarily riding black horses), is still at least a year away from production, are in a dead spot between phasing out the 6.5 diesel and bringing in the new 6.6 Isuzu, so basically they have nothing right now to offer for a long term contract. they either could sell whats left on the shelf, or sell something thats not even completly designed yet.

please don't let me take any fun out of this, need to have some myself

cdean · June 1999

f250Nut

First of all, I could have saved you several months of research by telling you not to compare the the Chevy 6.0 to the Ford and Dodge v10. That motor is not competing with the v10s. Chevy never said it would. Why are you crucifying them for making it not run with the v10s? Chevy will have their v10 in the next year or so. the 6.0 was built for a replacement of the 350, a mid level v8 NOT A BIG BLOCK. thats why chevy still sells the 454. If you compare the 6.0 to other mid level v8s, the old chevy 350, the Dodge 360, or the Ford 5.4, you can easliy tell after driving them that the 6.0 easily the most powerful, which is what it is advertised as.

As far as the so called sludge of a 454 your brother in law owns, you failed to mention some critical factors such as gearing and tranny type. We've got a '99 454 I would pit against any other combo. 454 in a 3500HD, with stick and 4.56 gears. Runs just as fast as similarly equipped Powerstrokes (truck weighs~ 14000), and gets the same mileage as powerstrokes (~10 mpg). It also has more torque and more horsepower than your v10. Maybe you should have been doing your comparative shopping with the 454 from Chevy, and not the 6.0

dave40 · June 1999

cdean: RIGHT ON !

cdean · June 1999

First the chevy Vortecs are Car engines, I guess because they have aluminum heads and then they have high rpm range. Then they're out of date because they have pushrods still? Why aren't the Fords engines called car engines because they're OHC, that started out in cars long ago?

bottom line: Chevy's new line of engines outperforms anything in industry of similar size. Chevy's new line of engines get ALOT, not a little, ALOT better mileage than Dodge and Ford engines of competitive size. And they will pull a load better than Ford and Dodge engines of competitive size.

The difference? Ford and Dodge have they engines peaking at lower rpms than chevy (Ford moreso than Dodge). So your Ford or Dodge pulls pretty well at 2000 rpms. It has 20 or 30 more ftlbs than chevy at 2K rpms.

but now you need to pass somebody, or you need to accelerate from a stop, or downshift to pull up a steep hill. Now you engine HAS to move into higher rpms. 2500, 3000, maybe 3500. The Ford or Dodge is now running out of breath, on the down end of its torque curve, as the engine acceleration is slow. The chevy torque is just peaking, running quickly to the end of that gear and upshifting to the next.

Thats what chevrolet has been trying to tell the public. higher, wider powerbands outpull smaller lower ones. Can chevy not make a low grunt engine? The vortec line from '96 to '99 classic are the lowest torque peaking gas engines out there, so its not a question if they could do it.

these new vortecs really pull fast if you just put your foot in it, and let it go. i discovered that recently with a buddy and his 5.3 pulling my boat. I have an old 350, with the great low end grunt. I have more peak torque than the 5.3 (335 vs 315), and my peak torque occurs at a much lower rpm. And you know what? that 5.3 pulls MUCH faster than my old 350. it'll run circles around it. I believe in it firmly after pulling with one of them.

If you like to see you tach stay relatively calm, don't get one. Don't be surprised to see a bowtie drive by in the passing lane, or while your at the gas pump.

KCRam · June 1999

cdean,

Not saying the Chevy or the Dodge is a wannabe because they used the same chassis 1500-3500, but the Super Duty chassis is definitely a class above the Chevy and Dodge. Neither Chevy or Dodge could ever make a class 5 off their pickup chassis. The road test in question is the GM 2500 against a Super Duty F250, which I don't consider equal. The 2500 starts at the same GVWR as the light duty F250, but they added enough spring capacity to make the 8600 mark to clear the "heavy duty" line. In contrast, the Super Duty F250 is a lightweight class 5.

As for the government contract, the Dept of Defense isn't taking delivery until 2003, according to the article. That means if Dodge wins, it will be on the NEW Ram platform, not the current one. The Cummins won't even be the same, as they are redoing the B-series diesel again in 2002.

As for steady tachs, I locked mine in at 1600rpm and 57mph, and got 24.3 mpg - turbo handled the hills with no downshifting

dave40 · June 1999

Last time I checked there were more Chevy and GMC Trucks on the road then Fords!
Why are there more Chevy Motors in more makes and models of hot rods then engines from all the other manufactures combined ? Just go out to rod and custom show and check it out: 98 percent of the time it's a Chevy motor under the hood.

akjbmw · June 1999

Signs of youth...

Dave40... Throwing out unsubstantiated numbers that support your current soapbox does not do positive things to your credibility.

The last time I was looking for a Ford block in an Automotive Recycling Center, I came away with the impression that there were less Ford blocks to build up for projects cause most were still running in vehicles on the road.
Unscientific observation unsupported by documentation. ;-)

xl_1228 · June 1999

Dave, look at the numbers. Ford outsells GMC and Chevy COMBINED.

cdean · June 1999

That was great mileage, Kcram. Sounds like the cummins is gettin better with age. I got 18.75 my last long trip with my 350 (automatic), with the cruise set at 70, tach on 2K the whole time, and after 91K miles, i was pleasantly surprised. But the you have a diesel, which is quite different animal than what we are talking about. Your engine "can't" rev, but of course it doesn't need to. And cruising down the highway in the new Vortecs, the tach will never go above 2K.

One main point is that, even though these vortecs seem to be in a higher range when pulling trailers, they are still getting incredible mileage numbers running down the highway. There a several posts around here of the 5.3 getting 19-20 mpg, which my friend also gets with his 5.3. And the motor tows BETTER the old 350's.

If that is the case, exactly what is there to complain about on these motors?

For towing, these motors do better than everything except for diesels. For driving down the highway, they almost get the mileage of a diesel.

f250nut · June 1999

Another comparison I made before I bought (alright, so it wasn't a very scientific comparison), was every time I went to a boat launch or campground I counted the tow vehicles. Funny that almost ALL were/are FORD and Dodge. Some of the owners were previous GM owners and were looking for a litle more than what they had. That also says something about what the majority buy for pullin' chores. Again, not real scientific but an observation.
We just returned from a trip to the coast in the F250 (V10, SC, 4.30) pulling our 21' trailer (6,000 lb) and it was a most enjoyable trip. Those trucks really ride comfortable and are powerful. I stayed in direct drive (not OD) and it never once shifted down to 2nd gear. The hills aren't many but still I was impressed - and got 9.6 mpg going and 10.0 return - not bad for a gasser.

cdean · June 1999

F250nut
I did mean to tell you still got a great truck. with that 4.30 rear and v10, you can pull anything, as long as you don't mind owning a thirsty truck.

I was just trying say you shouldn't have shopped the v10's vs the GM 6.0, you should have shopped them vs the 454.

Enjoy!

cdean

jimmysmi · June 1999

I am looking to replace a 93 F250 for a work truck. Considering a Dodge Quad Cab with auto and Cummins or F250 w/ auto & diesel. Heard horror stories about Ford Auto. I drive hard in Houston traffic and the 93 I have has a standard. My wife will not drive with the standard and we use the work truck for pulling the boat so I drive all the time.
Any advise or experience with either beyond warranty periods would be appreciated.

fred9 · June 1999

I have almost 40000 KM on my 1999 F-350 crew
cab lariat PSD and the only problem I have had
is a noisy T/C that Ford replaced free with no hassles.
If you are looking for a Auto with a diesel I
would stay with the Ford as far as I am concerned
the 4R100 is miles ahead of the grenade that they use on the Dodges. If you are looking for trouble
Get the Dodge but be prepared to get a standard
trans. brakes that pull, clueless dealers and a gutless 24 valve that will barely pull you over a speed bump.

f220swift · June 1999

Just recieved my 1999 F150 with the upgraded 5.4. What a motor with 260hp and 345foot pounds of tourqe it is by far the most powerfull engine available in a half ton. You Chevy fans better compare engine specs because the Chevy 5.3 is only rated at 315 foot pounds and tourqe means every thing in a truck. In addition, the off road package is awesome. The 17 inch wheels and massive rubber compliment the power plant.

quadrunner500 · June 1999

As long as you want to compare specs, why not point out that the GM 5.3L gets better fuel economy than the 5.4L Triton...by quite a bit.

Whoooossssshhhhh.....(Sound of passing you by at the pump)

cdean · June 1999

yes f220, the ford has more torque at its peak, but the chevy has more torque at low rpms, and more torque at high rpms, over the whole range of engine use. unless you can do all your driving at one set rpm, your Ford will have trouble pulling like the chevy.

3 or 4 mpg difference makes a hell of difference in fuel costs over the life of a vehicle as well.

f220swift · June 1999

You have better look at the numbers again cdean because the 5.4 makes 90% of its tourqe at under 2500 rpms. While the Chevy is well over 4000. And as far as gas mil. goes,if I wanted fuel mil. I would have bought the car like motors that GM produces.

quadrunner500 · June 1999

They are cast iron truck blocks, with six bolt, cross bolted mains. The car engines have aluminum blocks. My F350 with the 460 cu/in engine only has 4 bolt mains.

The Tritons, by the way are based on car engines also, in the Mustang, Crown Victoria and Continental.

f220swift · June 1999

The Triton motors also have cross bolted mains and they do not have a plastic intake, which the new GM motors have. This intake configuration should be interesting to see if it will hold up or melt. We will see in a few years!
And I was refering to all HP and no tourqe when I was refering to car type motors. Which GM seems to be famous for.

f220swift · June 1999

(Quadrunner) As far as gas milage goes my 1999 5.4 stickered at 16 and 14. And that is about what I am getting if not better. I will sacrifice 1 or 2 mpg for the added power. You are probably better off with your 460.

quadrunner500 · June 1999

If it didn't leave puddles all over my driveway from power steering leaks, oil leaks, or didn't leak out air conditioning refrigerant, or didn't have a shaky speedometer needle, or spill my coffee from rough transmission shifts, didn't make squealing noises from the tranny, squealing noises from the belts, or get worse than 10 mpg, I might have considered another one. Still have it though.

cdean · June 1999

f220
i haven't seen the torque curves for the '99 fords, so you may be right.

But I will have to ask you to look at your numbers as well. The chevy peaks at 4000 rpm, but holds 90% of its peak torque all the way down to 2000 rpms. So what have I been trying to say? Ford torque falls off quickly as it accelerates into upper RPMs. So when you are driving under a heavy load, your truck starts pulling slower, and spends a little more actual time in the higher rpms. the chevy is still got the same torque all the way up to high rpms. So when you are pulling heavy loads, it runs thru that gear very quickly, downshifts out of those rpms. words can only do so much, you'd have to give one a drive to really feel it.

won't you go have a look at one of the last Chevy 350's. Was that a car motor too? it has basically the same air intake as the new ones. the actual air intake into the engine is polished aluminum runners. the Vortec engine was developed in '96 after the LT's in the previous corvette. So was that a car motor? It was the most powerful AND most efficient line of gasoline truck engines on the market. If that's a car motor, i'll take it.

if you pay attention to the development of the triton engines, they became competitive (HP and torque) with the GM's when they added longer polished aluminum runners, basically the same GM design concept, only it took them a couple of more years to figure it out.

The

f220swift · June 1999

Yes, the chevy has a flatter tourqe curve, however it starts out with a lot less tourqe. So by the time it catches up to the ford it is at its upper range. And then it only surpasses ford by a few ft.pounds. So over the entire curve the Ford out performs the Chevy. You had better take a look at the 5.4 numbers.

dave40 · June 1999

I agree the 5.3 is weak compared to the 5.4 GM will have to upgrade it like ford did wih the 5.4 Untill then GM's 6.0 is the ticket 300hp 355 lbs Torque

quadrunner500 · June 1999

This "my engine has more torque than your engine" topic has gotten lame.

Can we put it to rest? I need to go check on my plastic intake manifold to see if it melted yet.

dave40 · June 1999

THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE: 5.3 is lame

cdean · June 1999

how bout we just go drive (and tow) one and see for yourself. I have.

f220swift · June 1999

OK!

olds · June 1999

I'm the proud owner of a "96 Ram 1500. So far no problems @37k. I bought a '87 K5 Blazer new, the dealer had it back on warranty 3 times for valve seals (finally gave up and changed heads), once for the rear main seal, once to replace the rear differial (posi-carrier), and the paint on the front fenders was so thin the primer showed through (Gave up on that), all in all that Blazer really turned me off of Chevy. The final straw was the ingnition pick-up coil giving out on a trip out of town towing my camper on a Sunday afternoon traffic on the highway coming back to town. (It wasn't up to towing as well as my Dodge either no power or handling caracteristics)

P.S. That was the 3rd Blazer I owned, the others were a '74 and an '85 (also bought new). Niether of those were much better. I think I gave Chevy more that enough chances.

olds · June 1999

I'm the proud owner of a "96 Ram 1500. So far no problems @37k. I bought a '87 K5 Blazer new, the dealer had it back on warranty 3 times for valve seals (finally gave up and changed heads), once for the rear main seal, once to replace the rear differial (posi-carrier), and the paint on the front fenders was so thin the primer showed through (Gave up on that), all in all that Blazer really turned me off of Chevy. The final straw was the ingnition pick-up coil giving out on a trip out of town towing my camper on a Sunday afternoon traffic on the highway coming back to town. (It wasn't up to towing as well as my Dodge either no power or handling caracteristics)

P.S. That was the 3rd Blazer I owned, the others were a '74 and an '85 (also bought new). Niether of those were much better. I think I gave Chevy more that enough chances.

KCRam · June 1999

DC will not be making a 5.5L OHC V8 (a stroked 4.7). Instead, they have announced their plans to build both a 5.7L V8 and a 6.1L V8. Click here for the story from Ward's Automotive.

sd99 · July 1999

Wow, is that really you Dave40?

Rocles · July 1999

Knuckleheads. That's all I can muster at the moment. I come back after a brutal bike accident and you guys(different characters;same argument)are still throwing numbers in the wind!!
I have said this as an authority:Dodge is getting better and maybe in five years they will push the envelope but overall truck QUALITY is Ford. Although I have been relegated to financial partner status at my roofing firm since my ordeal, I haven't forgotten the quality. All makes of different years and the Fords routinely are the cheapest to repair and run.
Forget that the Chevy might have 3ft/lbs more of torque than the Ford. What really matters to the consumer? Initial price, overall quality, years of service, and sound sales of many (more)other buyers. Dodge is fine. Chevy....Ok. Ford? Don't like the swoosh? So what!! What are we? 16? Only MEN should operate and USE a truck. Men would not be concerned if they think their truck is sissified. When does function topple aestetics? With Ford owners.

My incredibly loud two pennies.

bobmar24 · July 1999

Greeting you truck gurus,
My name is Bob and I'm 24 years old...soon to be graduating from Az State. When I am hired I will reward myself w/ the purchase of my first truck. I will most likely be buying a full size ext. cab truck 97-99. I love trucks and I have fallen in love with them driving trucks that belong to various friends and family members. My parents have never owned trucks nor it their any real mechanical know-how in my immediate family. Thus I turn to you guys for help. Here's my qusetions....What would you guys suggest? I love the looks of the F150's as well as the Dakota and Rams. I also wouldn't rule out a 4x4 Tacoma either...or what about the T100 or Tundra or Frontier 4x4? Reliability and safety are very important to me. I will also be lugging my daughter around in this truck and she'll be about 3 years old at time of purchase. So keep in mind that I need a user friendly and comfortable truck as well. To be honest, I love the exterior as well as the interior looks of the F150's. I have had an opportunity to look these trucks over a great deal at a local dealership and I think they're awesome looking. But are they the right truck for me? Also, I won't be using the bed of the truck for hard daily use; just occasional use. And if you guys do recommend an F150 for me...what features/options should I keep in mind when purchasing this truck? I really appreciate your help.
Thanx,
Bob

dave40 · July 1999

GET THE LIGHTNING

smcpherr · July 1999

BobMar,

I drove a '97 F-150 4x2 XLT for three years, and now drive a '99 F-150 4x4 XLT. Loved the first one, Love the second even more. For a truck, the ride is very good, even in the 4x4 with the offroad package. The truck handles exceptionally well, and has good engine choices. It also is a well built truck, three years and the only problem I had was a leaking brake line which was quickly fixed under warranty. Also important, my girlfriend, mother and sister all love riding in it, and can drive it very easily. I only know Ford (which I recommend to anyone), but other manufacturers build good trucks too. Try asking specific questions in the specific conference rooms (for the Tundra, Ram, Dakota, F-150, etc...). Those topics are more frequented than this one. Whatever choice you pick, if you pick one you like, you will be happy with it. (Even the Lightning!)

Rocles, good to have you back. Hope it was nothing too serious. Rehab is a pain, good luck.

Scotty

ladyblue · July 1999

BobMar:

I've had an F150 4x4 and now drive a Ram. I would recommend both. The only way Chevy/GMC could enter the running is if they come through with their promised 4th door.

As far as options, get as many as you can afford! This will avoid future "truck envy" when you start wishing you'd gotten this bell or that whistle. Just my opinion.

Rocles · July 1999

bobmar,
I presume you are a single guy. With that in mind, I would consider a regular cab with a short bed. 4x2 with either the 4.6 eight or the 4.2 basic six. I wouldn't strap myself right out of college paying for the extended cab or the XLT trim package. Not that an extended cab wouldn't be useful! Just more pesos. Lighting? Yeah, they roar but I hope you have a great first job...
Scotty, thanks for the encouragement. It looks like rehab through the rest of the year. Hopefully I'll be able to sit up for longer times so I can hit the site more often.

dave40 · July 1999

Who has the nicest looking Truck DODGE FORD CHEVY
Show Your Truck Pictures at Topic #775 Truck Pictures

KCRam · July 1999

GM announced today that the new Isuzu direct-injection 6.6L V8 turbodiesel will be available for the 2001 model year in the HD Silverado/Sierra pickups. It is named the "Duramax 6600", as the joint venture plant in Indiana is called DMAX Ltd. Power output was not mentioned.

The Duramax has its work cut out for it. The current Ford/Navistar Powerstroke 7.3 V* is rated at 235 hp and 500 lb-ft. The 2000-1/2 (available after January 15th) Dodge/Cummins will be rated at 245/505 from just a 5.9 liter six. If the Duram,ax falls short in either horsepower or torque, GM and Isuzu wil have wasted a lot of development money, because the diesel consumer will say "why'd you bother, if the Ford and Dodge are still more powerful?"

And who is coming up with these engine "names"? In the full-size group, we will now have Vortec and Duramax from GM, Triton and Powerstroke from Ford, PowerTech from Dodge (thank God they didn't name the Cummins), and "i-force" from Toyota. The folks in Marketing must have time on their hands...

Dodge,Ford,Chevy------who wins?

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