Subaru Crew Problems & Solutions

dave226 · June 2001

I notice that my 2000 legacy has a ping ping noise from the engine area. This is especially noticable during acceleration and hill climbing. I've changed to 89 octane gas with negative results. The dealer says it's normal and not it worry. Is anyone else experiencing this and what success have you had to cure the problem???

kens · June 2001

Len -- The Geolandars have symmetrical tread patterns so it's okay to rotate them so that they cross sides. In fact, one alignment shop I went to recommended I cross sides to keep wear even.

Having said that, I only rotated my first set of Geolandars front-to-back and I had fairly even wear even at 45K miles.

Dave -- Light pinging isn't a problem, but knocking is. If it's really bothering you, try 92 gas just to see if that stops it. If not, I'd go see a dealer; maybe even a different one for a different opinion.

Ken

paisan · June 2001

Wow I rarely let my tires go past 45K miles en-total. Although I think my Bridgestone Duelers on my Rodeo went close to 50K before I decided to replace them, even though they weren't worn out yet, I figured I better not risk it.

-mike

locke2c · June 2001

Dave, what RPM are you at when you hear the pinging?

-Colin

kens · June 2001

Mike,

I still had not hit the wear indicators even at 45K miles. I had about 1/16" remaining. The winter season was coming so I decided to err on the safe side and replace them.

Ken

babaoriley · June 2001

re: Post #2048
I, too, would like to cross-rotate the tires on my 00 OB. Does anyone here know whether the Firestone's have symmetrical tread patterns?
TIA,
Brett

leo2633 · June 2001

Thanks for the input, guys. Just for the purpose of showing off, I got 100,000 miles on the original equipment Michelin XGT4's on my 1992 Nissan Sentra! They still had a good amount of tread left, and they never hit the tread wear indicators, although they were starting to get a little slippery in the rain when starting from a dead stop. I still have that car, and one of those Michelins as a spare, to replace the OEM donut it came with. Again, rotation every 5K and always keeping them properly inflated. Unfortunately, the best I could get out of the Pirelli P400's I replaced them with was 55K, but they wore evenly and handled great (hence the lower mileage, I suppose). I definitely agree with the cross-side rotation to maintain even tread wear.

Len

bluesubie · June 2001

IIRC, it's because side-to-side isn't needed with AWD vehicles. I get mine rotated at a local tire place and they've always only rotated front to rear without even asking. I guess they must know something.
Dennis

kens · June 2001

The way I understand it is that you rotate your tires to help minimize uneven wear. How you rotate them (ie. rotation pattern) depends on 1)how the tires are wearing and 2)the tire type. As long as you don't have asymmetric tread patterns, there's no right or wrong way to rotate them -- front/back, crossing, whatever. If you have asymmetric tires, then they need to stay on the same side they were installed.

I think way back when radials were first introduced there was something about the tire construction that made it necessary to keep the rotation front/back.

I believe the owners manual has front/back listed because it's the most conservative of all rotation patterns -- it'll work with all tire types.

Ken

erics6 · June 2001

Dave-

My 2000 Subaru pings too - under light load at around 2000 rpm (generally 70 degrees and above). Different grades of fuel and different brands have had no effect on the pinging. The only time it doesn't ping is when it is cool out. A number of other people posting to this board have had the same problem.

The district service rep is driving it this Thursday to download data for the SOA engineers. Last download didn't work. Basically, Subaru doesn't have a fix for this yet. I have a feeling it's going to require reprogramming the software in the computer. I hope they a fix soon since the pinging I'm getting is worse then my old 71 beater Volvo running on reg. unleaded. I'm going to insist on a carbon flush when they do find a fix.

-Eric

mhjamerson · June 2001

I have a 1996 Legacy Outback S/W with an automatic transmission and approximately 93000 miles. When I am turning the vehicle at low RPMs/speed it makes a 'clunking' noise and a 'shuddering' movement. It often does this when pulling into or out of a parking space or when making a 180 degree turn (as when making a U-turn) or a sharp 3-point turn.

Any ideas as to what the problem might be? I plan on taking it to the dealership - however, I have no experience with the local dealer and would like to have a sense of the differential diagnosis before dealing with them (so that they cannot give me the run-around). Thanks for any advice/info/help.

owells · June 2001

I too have been trying to solve a pinging problem on a '00 Legacy with 20K miles. The dealer recently accused us of using substandard gas (not!), but it's been pinging consistently since the weather has warmed up, usually at or just above 2000 rpms under a slight to moderate load. I've replaced the fuel filter and plugs (NGK) and bumped up the octane to 89. It's still pinging and everything I've read says that it is doing serious damage to the engine. If it continues, or if Subaru can't provide some kind of fix, we will definitely not keep the car beyond the warranty. It's a shame too, because we really love the car and expected more.

evilizard · June 2001

Sounds like an issue with your tie rods or other steering linkage. I've had that problem on a few cars and it usually involved replacing some boots and joints or some sort or another.

I would crawl under the car and take a look at the various boots (black bellow looking plastic covers). I belive there are 6 in the front 1/3 of the car. If any of them are cracked get that one replaced ASAP. If any are torn then you will probably need to replace the joint it protects as well.

locke2c · June 2001

Wow, this MY00 pinging thing is getting a bit scary.

-Colin

erics6 · June 2001

Forgot to add that I've also done a 30k service early at 24k. Replaced the c*** Champion's with NKG's.

I do have to give the dealer credit - at least they seem concerned about the pinging. They won't come out and say it's bad but you can tell the service rep thinks there is an issue. When I met the district service rep. last time he spent a lot of time talking about different fuels. He thought the noise was coming from the transmission which I disagree with. Patti's been great to work though.

Bottom line though! Regardless of different fuel types thoughout the country - the engine should not ping and Subaru needs to find a fix. I am going to hold them liable if there is any engine damage.

-Eric

bluesubie · June 2001

Almost as scary as the MY97/98 5-speed hesitation problem which I'm having again because I changed the oil last Saturday.

I told my last dealer about it and they blamed it on a vacuum line. Of course, it started with the next oil change.

My problem is that I kept losing patience and resetting the ECU myself. I've recently found another dealer for service but since I'm out of the 36k warranty I'll likely just do the "reset the ECU 3 times routine".

Anyway, yeah we've seen quite of few of the pinging post lately. Hope they resolve it.

Dennis

hypov · June 2001

does it really sound like "ping"?
Anyway, just looking at it from another angle, if there's a sudden influx of ping encounters on this board - could there be a commonality with the batch of gas out there.

paisan · June 2001

But then wouldn't other makes/models be doing it?

-mike

hypov · June 2001

thought about that too.
Figured I just blurt it out - maybe it would hit something.

pattim3 · June 2001

this pinging issue and providing information to our tech. group. It's weird that none of our test vehicles are doing it (from what I know). A ping is almost always related to fuel and the way the car reacts to it. I know that we usually see it as a bigger issue with "summer blends" of fuels. Most of us at work fill up with the same brand, so I don't know if that is a factor in our lack of ping???? If poor quality gas is suggested, try not to get insulted. Some very well known brands occasionally have concerns, it may just be a bad batch? Anyway, no more rambling. We're watching it. We have done fuel samples on some cars and found concerns (different areas of the U. S.) Hopefully the data streams will show us something, but so far, nothing has stood out.

I'll keep you posted.

Patti

stevek · June 2001

as I understand the manual tranny Legacy has different front/rear split ratio than the automatic. I heard the manual is 60/40 and the automatic is 90/10. In that case rotatting the tires on a manual could be done at longer intrervals then the automatic. Is this correct?

paisan · June 2001

I don't think that it matters what the torque split is for tire rotation. From what I understand the more often the better. I try to do it every 3-5K but usually wind up doing it ever 7K. Don't forget even though your car is AWD, the turning of the front wheels tends to wear those quicker than power to a wheel.

-mike

bluesubie · June 2001

IIRC, the owner's manual doesn't have different rotation styles for the different AWD systems. Anyone have an owner's manual handy?

Dennis

nygreg · June 2001

Doesn't the ECM adjust the timing to prevent pinging?? It seems that Subaru is a little more touchy to fuels. Maybe it's inherent with boxer engines. I have been using mainly 93 octane (Mobil, Hess, Sunoco) without any pinging. 89 octane was used twice. The first time I thought I heard very minor pinging at one time, but, I had to really try to load the engine a certain way to get it to ping. Right now there is 89 in the car with no pinging.

Greg

paisan · June 2001

I run 87Octane from the major oil companies in my '88 XT6 w/o performance loss nor pinging.

-mike

owells · June 2001

Just as a follow up to Patti. The dealer suggested we weren't using name brand gas, which is irritating. And, if I was willing to take the time to do a tune-up at 20K, I've certainly been thorough enough to try every brand of gas in the area (Southern Indiana and Chicago). I find it hard to believe that a bad batch of gas spans a couple of months and all the name brands. The fact that it always occurs at the same rpms also seems to point beyond bad gas. The other constant is heat - the engine has usually run for awhile and the ambient temp is above 70 or so.

We plan to try to the dealer again soon, but it seems rather futile considering the response we've gotten so far.

paisan · June 2001

Most gas for all major brands come from the same storage places, they sometimes add different additives. But over serveral months the supply would be differnt for sure, especially in a large area such as chicago or NY or NJ. Definitely seems like an ECU programming problem IMHO.

-mike

bluesubie · June 2001

I agree with Greg on Subaru's being more touchy to various fuels. I can tell a big difference when I use other brands. I definately can't run 87 octane and my car hesitates severely if I try.

Dennis

erics6 · June 2001

I have to second Richard's comments. I always try to use name brand gas and I've tried using different brands with no effect. I'm in Oregon. (I learned not to use Arco after my Saab's fuel injectors got plugged up.) I generally buy Texaco and even go as far as to stick with the company owned stores that are getting their gas supplies from Texaco. I originally thought 92 octane was helping, but it turned out to be weather dependent.

To summarize - octane and brand have no effect. Pinging occurs anytime the temparture is above about 70 degrees. The pinging does not appear to occur until the engine is at around normal operating temparture. Pinging occurs under acceleration and climbing hills at around 2000 - 2500 rpm.

-Eric

originalbitman · June 2001

The manual for my 01 GT wagon says every 7.5k front to rear. I'm on a 3K schedule.

bit

originalbitman · June 2001

Found an OEM alloy rim for my 01 GT wagon. Ordered it from Liberty Subaru (http://www.libertysubaru.com/) for $159. Dealers locally wanted list of $230. So now I will have a full size spare... wonder if I should include it in the roatation?

bit

originalbitman · June 2001

The manual for my 01 GT wagon says every 7.5k front to rear. I'm on a 3K schedule.

bit

hciaffa · June 2001

I am glad to see (though not really in a meanfull way ) that others are speaking out about the pinging issue. I have been complaining to my dealer and SOA since we purchased our 99 Forester (in Nov of 98) about pinging and poor gas milage because I feel that both are related. I have tried every major and non major brand of gas as well as octanes from 87 to 93 and it continues, more so in the warmer months than the colder months. I have pestered my dealer about this but they have "not been able to duplicate it" or I get the usual that many Foresters do this. From Subaru after I ran a gas log for several months that they felt the engine performance and the milage was acceptable and within their specs. I am so annoyed over this, really no modern day auto should ping with the techical advance in engine control. My dealer did reset the ECU but that didn't work. I can honestly say as one person posted that as the warranty in nearing the end I feel that my wife and I are going to trade this vehicle in as we have no confidence in this vehicle and that I cannot recommend this or any Subaru vehicle to our friends and co-workers. Maybe Subaru should start to study up on this problem.

locke2c · June 2001

To summarize - octane and brand have no effect. Pinging occurs anytime the temparture is above about 70 degrees. The pinging does not appear to occur until the engine is at around normal operating temparture. Pinging occurs under acceleration and climbing hills at around 2000 - 2500 rpm.

Eric, climbing hills at 2000 rpm?

Try downshifting. Or if you must try that hill in whatever gear at 2000 rpm, decrease throttle input.

Let me know if the pinging still occurs after this.

-Colin

erics6 · June 2001

Colin-

It's an automatic. When you're climbing a steep grade the transmission shifts down and revs climb above 2500 rpm, and the pinging does not occur. The pinging occurs when the grade is not steep or the transmission has shifted back up and the revs drop to around 2000 rpm. If I manually shift down and pop the revs back up the pinging disappears. The pinging occurs in all gears but only at around 2000 - 2500 rpm. It also pings in city driving when accelerating - same thing at around 2000 rpm. As the revs climb above about 2500 rpm the pinging disappears.

-Eric

kens · June 2001

I must agree that accelerating up a hill from 2000RPM can be a little strenuous for our engines, especially if you go WOT. I typically try to keep my revs up past 2500RPM by downshifting. On uphill climbs on the highway where I'll need quick acceleration, I'll delay my upshifts to at least 3500RPM.

BTW, I'm not in any way trying to downplay the reports of pinging. Just looking at the issue of accelerating uphill from such a low RPM.

Ken

owells · June 2001

I have to concur with Eric. The AT, which we also have, wants to be at around 2000 rpms or just above on slight inclines or moderate accelerations. Getting the revs up does eliminate the pinging, but it's rather awkward in traffic not to mention trying to downshift the AT manually on a regular basis.

kate5000 · June 2001

is it like coins rattling in a coffee can sound? or something else?

paisan · June 2001

Do they ping @ 2000-2500 in neutral?

Kate, pinging is more like marbles in a can, coins dropping usually is a heat shield expanding/contracting or catalytic converter.

-mike

originalbitman · June 2001

Are the pinging Soobs being reported here all ATs?

bit

locke2c · June 2001

Do they ping @ 2000-2500 in neutral?

No way, there's no load on the engine.

Patti, there's some really good information here. Powertrain engineers should be able to duplicate this and then reprogram the TCU or ECU to fix it.

My guess... you're cruising along and the converter is fully locked up to help gas mileage. You accelerate a bit and since the converter is locked up there's no slippage to allow the revs to come up a bit. It needs to unlock the converter more quickly or upshift sooner. Or both. Engine tuning could help this, but I'd look at the tranny first.

Eric-- if you abruptly mash the throttle wide-open right when the hill starts, is the tranny smart enough to instantly downshift? Does it ping?

-Colin

subaru_team · June 2001

post. If your Subaru is pinging, make sure that a dealer checks it out. If the dealer suggest a fuel change, try at least 4 or 5 tank fulls. Because the ECU can "learn" from data it gathers from various systems in your car, it could very well still have the learned behaviour. After a few tanks with a fuel change, it may resolve itself. If it doesn't, you should contact the dealer again and explain what you have tried. I do not think it is a good idea to re-set the ECU yourself as any codes that may be stored in the computer will be erased and it may prove more challenging to resolve the issue if it doesn't straighten itself out. I'm not a technician and I'm not saying that it is "definitely" fuel related. I'm only sharing with you what MY experiences have been. That is based on reviewing case files, talking to our tech. group and tracking the issue. We have even seen some situations where the vehicles have "black fuel". This is where motor oil is being dumped into the fuel tank at the gas station ($2.00 a gallon)?

Just to be clear, some ping and then a correction where the ECU makes an adjustment. I'm understanding your issue as being a "constant" ping that is duplicated by a dealer.

A thought? Could someone who is not having a ping concern, post what type of fuel they are using? Maybe some of the "ping" cars can try the same fuel for a few tankfuls and see what happens?

I am reporting this issue and I'll share what you are telling me. I am concerned and I'll do my best to try to help.

Patti

erics6 · June 2001

The pinging occurs under moderate load. What happens is on an incline you accelerate, the transmission drops down into a lower gear and revs shoot up. As you're climbing at a steady speed the transmission drops back into a higher gear at around 2000 rpm and steady pinging begins. If you accelerate again, the transmission drops into a lower gear and the pinging goes away. Same thing with city driving. If you mash on the pedal the revs shoot up... no pinging (or if it does ping you go through the 2000 - 2500 rpm range so quickly you can't hear it), but if you accelerate normally it starts to ping in that same rev range. In city driving the transmission spends a lot of time in the 2000 - 2500 range. The only pinging noise that I can use as a reference was my old Volvo that was made for leaded higher octane fuel and pinged when I used reg. unleaded. It sounds the same to me. Any ideas why this problem seems to be temparture dependent?

bigfrank3 · June 2001

Neither my wife's AT '01 Forester nor my MT '01 Forester ping. We use Sunoco 89 exclusively.

Here in MA we have oxygenated fuel and CA emission requirements.

Regards,
Frank

bigfrank3 · June 2001

Just a thought. Is your "cold air" ductwork properly connected to the air box, and are the 2 halves of the air box properly mated?

Regards,
Frank

hypov · June 2001

I would like to share my input on the "ping", but I'm a bulb without a filament when it comes to "meaning of life" as far as the engine is concern.
Like a blind deer, I've got "no eye deer" what a PING is.

armac13 · June 2001

under any conditions, 87 exclusively, usually Chevron. I am very familiar with pinging. As my Golf aged I had to go to 89 to eliminate pinging. So far this year the temperature has been low so I will keep my ears open when I go into the interior in the next week or so (mountain driving, often high temperatures).

Ross

erics6 · June 2001

Patti-

-----------------
"Just to be clear, some ping and then a correction where the ECU makes an adjustment. I'm understanding your issue as being a "constant" ping that is duplicated by a dealer."
------------------

Yes. The pinging is sustained. If the car is under moderate load between 2000 - 2500 rpm it pings. Ron Brady has driven the car and has duplicated the noise. (Your probably aware of this since you have my case, although we haven't talked since Ron drove the car. He's driving it again tomorrow to download data for the engineers, but it's suppose to be cool here in Portland, so there is no guarantee that the pinging will occur - remember it is temparture dependent - usually occurs above 70 degrees.)

I really have to question the fuel brand issue. #1, I'm limited to two major brands nearby my home, Texaco and Union 76. #2, when I'm on the road I often don't have a choice of brands - I get what's offered at that off-ramp. (Remember out West we have a lot of open space so choices in fuel brands are limited.) I'm assuming the engineers are trying to find a fix to this problem since sticking with a specific brand is not practical.

-Eric

bigfrank3 · June 2001

My '01 OM lists 2 different Champion heat range spark plugs as "recommended". This implies to me that under some types of use, the colder plug might be needed. A colder plug will help the pinging, the only downside is whether it will foul.

What type of driving do you folks who are having ping problems usually do, highway, bumper to bumper, or country road?

Regards,
Frank

locke2c · June 2001

Hypov-- pinging is also known as detonation. Detonation is when the fuel mixture explodes before it is ignited by the sparkplug. This results in cylinder pressures much higher than normal (3-5 times as much) which leads to ... well let's keep this simple and say broken parts.

Eric-- have you tried premium fuel? Whatever octane that might be in your area... probably 92. Because of climate, manufacturing tolerances, fuel quality, and a zillion other reasons not all cars will be able to use Subaru's initial recommendation of 87 octane. Let's also not forget that not long ago this EJ25 required premium fuel (96-97).

For example, my '99 Impreza RS has a fondness for premium fuel basically any time but winter. I have never heard detonation but I can feel hesistation and a lack of performance when it doesn't get what it likes. It took is rated for 87 octane fuel, and we don't have mandatory oxygenates in my area.

-Colin

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