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Vibe Maintenance & Repair Concerns

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Comments

  • montanafanmontanafan Member Posts: 945
    I think if you check some-sort of emissions value just to the left (as you look) of the master cylinder unit, you will find your noise source. Gentleman up the street describes it as a sewing machine type noise (but I wouldn't know what that sounds like ;-) ).
  • carbonnicarbonni Member Posts: 33
    "Sewing machine type noise" is, indeed, a good description. I suppose you meant "valve" rather than "value"? And that valve is not physically producing the noise, it is making the engine to produce the noise? (I could swear the noise comes from the engine)
  • montanafanmontanafan Member Posts: 945
    He spent the whole afternoon after he got the car under his hood, and finally convinced himself it was coming from that "valve". He went back to the dealer and started two other cars, to confirm the noise. He swears that the 2003 Vibe he had for the 24hr test drive didn't make the noise.
  • carbonnicarbonni Member Posts: 33
    Well, I must admit that I was confounding the valve noise with the engine noise. They are, in fact, two different things. The valve clicking is, probably, what I hear inside the car. Anybody knows if the new Corolla has the same problem? Last year, I've rented an 03 Corolla for 2 weeks, but I don't remember hearing a similar noise.
  • lowcountrygallowcountrygal Member Posts: 1
    I have a 2004 vibe with the monochrome paint package - paint on all areas that are plastic is very susceptible to chipping, especially below doors. My husband has an Isuzu (100% Japanese Manufacturing) and all plastic mouldings are a solid color throughout - no paint, which avoids this issue many of us are having with the Vibe. Love the Vibe otherwise... Would like to hear from others that have this issue.
  • thelthel Member Posts: 767
    Must be too many Iron Maiden concerts and handgun firing range adventures for me...I can barely hear the enging in my XRS below 4,000 RPM.
  • capitanocapitano Member Posts: 509
    LOL.

    I was gonna remark about your comment from a month or so ago when you said your XRS wasn't loud enough, thel. I thought you must have be being sarcastic but I guess not. My XRS is plenty loud for me.

    I've got Number of the Beast in my CD changer, but sometimes it is entertaining enough to listen to the engine.

    BTW, I saw your comments in the smartshopper boards about ditching your car. Is it really that bad for you? I know you're coming from a Miata and all, but so bad you want to be rid of it so soon? The trix is easily the best handling and performing car I've ever owned. The only things better that I have been privileged to drive were an old RX7 and my dad's 330Ci.
  • LuzerLuzer Member Posts: 119
    Did they ever get the light on/light off fix?
    It's been over a year since the trix had the TSB.

    Did GM ever get their own TSB out? If yes, Anyone with details from a dealer after the fix? I think it was a relay switch.
  • thelthel Member Posts: 767
    # of the Beast is good one! I know how to play a couple of those songs (guitar)...The Prisoner, The Number of the Beast, Run to the Hills and my favorite from that album, Hallowed be Thy Name. :D My monkier (sp?), "thel", is actually from a Bruce Dickinson song off of "Chemical Wedding".

    As for the car, the seating position has done such a number on my left leg that I can barely stand to drive it. The pain is quite bad, almost unbearable...something about the upright seating position and the relatively high engagement point of the clutch I guess.

    Anyway, Carmax offered by $13,500, I ran, not walked, out of the place and let my wife drive home. She thinks that she can handle the stick even thought she prefers the sluchbox in her Civic so we're going to trade for a little while and see if my leg heals. If it does, I'll blame the car. If it doesn't, I'll blame something else like tennis season. Either way I won't be getting rid of it anytime soon if that is all the Matrix is worth...Even my Protege5 didn't depreciate that quickly.

    I paid $15,500 for the P5, a few months later, a dealer offered $12,500...not too bad. I paid $19,500 for the Matrix back in November of 03 and now I'm offered $13,500 and I'm left wondering if I really bought a Hynundai or something!? LOL!
     
    :(
  • thelthel Member Posts: 767
    The most annoying feature of this car has to be that friggin' beeping of the tranny in reverse. >:(
  • capitanocapitano Member Posts: 509
    I'm OK with the beeping. The only time it annoys me is when I get the reverse beep and the seatbelt beep at the same time.

    I was worried about the seating position since pretty much all the reviews said something about the seats being designed for short people. When I test drove one, I found that I didn't need to make any adjustments from where the salesman had it when he brought it around.

    The clutch action is not affecting my knee at all as far as I can tell. The clutch is a little tricky in 1st because of the peakiness of the engine. I like shifting from 2nd to 3rd and 3rd to 4th though.

    I think that carmax offer was their way of telling you that they don't want the car. I get the impression carmax wants mass-market vehicles, not niche vehicles. Betcha they'd offer more if had an automatic. Other enthusiast sites for the trix have members talking about much higher trade values. Have you gotten it appraised by a Toyota dealer? They might have a different view on its desirability.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    told me trade on my XR automatic was $11,500...24K miles and 18 months old. Sticker on it was originally $19,5, which I paid close to because it was new and there weren't many around. I don't think this is really a niche vehicle - now they are selling at a rate of 80K per year, so there must be quite a number on the roads by now. I think the problem with resale is exactly the opposite - the market is too flooded with them, kinda like corolla and Camry, which is why those models' depreciation is also always swift.

    If you are serious about selling, the $13,5 is pretty good.

    There are fire sales now on P5s around where I am, for the ones that are left. I kinda doubt that one that had been $15,5 new would be worth $12,5 any more.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • capitanocapitano Member Posts: 509
    Thel's is an XRS like mine. Much shorter supply on those.
  • capitanocapitano Member Posts: 509
    13,5 may not be so far off. I ran one through kbb and got 13,975 (XRS 6spd 5k miles), but the site does not allow for 2004 models. Figure maybe an extra $1k for that?

    Anyway, I could have sworn that some other owners had gotten significantly higher trade in values. I went looking on some other sites. So far I found one guy who traded an XRS for a Mazda3 and got 14,5 for his.
  • thelthel Member Posts: 767
    I ran mine through as an 03 in excellent condition with 6,500 miles and got mid $14's on both. I figured that mid 15's should be doable, maybe 16 if they really wanted to move a car. I'll just hang onto it until the 04 miata's start to get really huge discounts (early Fall or so) and try again.

    As for the Matrix being a niche vehicle...I'd say the XR is pretty standard but the XRS is very nichey. A 6-speed, high-hp (relatively speaking) grocery getting wagon...yeah, that's not a mass market appeal car IMO.
  • capitanocapitano Member Posts: 509
    Not in this country anyway. Something like an XRS is attractive in Europe where wagons don't have the stigma that they have here in the states.

    Anyway, thel, what attracted you to the trix and why did you buy it? What things will you pay more attention to the next time you are in the market?
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    it seems like you trade cars pretty frequently, is that right? I am curious, because I tend to trade pretty frequently too. Is it because you want to always have a new car?

    The local dealer has two XRS's - they have both been there longer than two months. Both have stickers on them advertising $2500 off MSRP, which would bring their price to about $17,500.

    If you figure a used car would go for at least 10% less than the best price you could get a new one for, even in excellent condition and with very few miles, that would make an '04 worth about $15,750. But in reality I don't think they are going for that. Some guy on the local automart (weekend sell-your-own-car type of thing) has had his XRS in there so many consecutive weekends, he qualified for a free weekend. His is an '03, with 10K miles. He is joining the military and shipping out, according to his sign. The price has marched steadily downward from $17K at first (a bit optimistic) to $13,500 last weekend.

    Now, of course, the XR I had is a much higher-volume model, so it is no surprise the depreciation was worse than an XRS's.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • capitanocapitano Member Posts: 509
    Nip, did you get rid of your XR? When and why?
  • thelthel Member Posts: 767
    1. What attracted me to the Matrix? First of all was the versatility of the wagon design. So I tried others in the segment (ZX5 SVT, WRX, Pro5, 3 wasn't out yet). Of them all, I liked the XRS the best. I thought the Matrix would have enough cargo hauling ability that I wouldn't miss my truck (wrong) and enough fun that I wouldn't miss my Miata too horribly (waaay wrong, FWD was not the way to go). I was pretty depressed at the time of purchase and alone in a city during a Convention...in hindsight, not the best time to go car shopping...duh.

    2. What would I pay attention to more next time? I'd say it's more of an issue of knowing exactly what it is I want more than anything. I thought I knew, and I was wrong. I've learned to be more deliberate and patient the next time. I figured that there was about a 20% chance that I'd actually sell my XRS, but I thought I'd give it a try and see what they said.

    The test drive was one of those preprogrammed routes and it lasted about 5 miles...not long enough to notice any fatigue issues. It performed much better than the SVT and the WRX IMO, so I bought it and made the worst car buying decision of my life (and I've made 4 really bad ones).
  • thelthel Member Posts: 767
    I do trade frequently, sometimes new, sometimes used. Not so much b/c I want a new car, but usually it is out of sheer stupidity in not truly knowing my needs before purchasing.

    I bought the Pro5 and then sold it when the dealer's service and parts departments made me very upset and angry over their ignorance and I allowed it to sour my view on the car which is dumb, but it happened anyway...

    I bought a Tahoe from my mother-in-law b/c it was a great deal and I thought I needed 4WD. I went this last winter with only FWD and did fine and despite the good deal, I still couldn't afford the payments....again, dumb.

    I've got a million dumb trade-in stories. If I get time, and you guys want to really hear them for a good laugh at my expense, I may post them...but I don't think this would be the best forum for that...
  • stillageekstillageek Member Posts: 114
    When I was looking for my Matrix I found an extreme lack of XRS models around (I live in a suburb of Dallas, over 6 dealers within 30 minutes). Of all the lots there were only 7 XRS versus over 40 XR and base models. I found later that only 1 out of 10 Matrix made are a XRS. That's also a similar stat to the number of Matrix that have the navigation system (1 out of 10). I ended up getting a dealer trade from a lot in Paris, TX. It had everything I wanted but the factory Nav, which I added later. I love my car. It's a weekend/fun car. If I had to drive it everyday in traffic I would probably hate it. The 6 speed is fun, but not in bumper to bumper traffic. The auto XRS (a thing of the past) takes all the fun out of the engine. To each his own. I like the new 3, but hate the small cargo area and the center dash, can't ever upgrade the stereo.
  • thelthel Member Posts: 767
    I live in a pretty small market, rural area so I have yet to see another XRS on the road or on the local lots anywhere. The dealer I bought mine from was in a large urban area (Olathe, KS) and they only had one XRS. Another dealer in another part of KC had zero XRS's, so I guess they are pretty rare. That is a two-edged sword however. Some cars are rare b/c no one wants them...
  • capitanocapitano Member Posts: 509
    I bought mine because I wanted something sporty and fun to drive but also something versatile. It has met all of my expectations. Last month I packed it full and moved down to Miami.

    I have fun driving, though I don't like the bumper to bumper stuff. I have learned how to start off at a crawl in 1st gear now, thanks to the DC traffic I was in. Now I am in Miami and I still get bumper to bumper traffic but I can still let her rip. Having the 6 speed and the power allows me to get around the land yachts driven by cellphone addicts well enough.

    I think part of our traffic problems are caused by the automatic transmissions and the driving style they encourage. Anyone in a manual hates to come to a complete stop, where someone with an automatic doesn't mind the stop and go and actually contributes to it.

    XRS availability. I was hard pressed to find one. I originally wanted to test drive one in June of 03, but the nearest one was 150 miles away. So I waited. A year later and there were still none in my neck of the woods (Richmond, VA). I bought mine 150 miles from home.

    Oddly enough I spotted two other XRS one day in Richmond. There were three of us in a row. I was behind a dark blue one, and behind me was a silver one. Mine is cosmic blue. Must have been a lunar eclipse.

    I've seen a couple down here in Miami. One was an 03 with an auto.
  • tinosassotinosasso Member Posts: 16
    Has anyone noticed a very annoying tapping/squeaky noise coming from the gauges. It has gotten progressivly worse over the last few months. I know its from the gauges because whey i press against them with my hand it stops making the noise. Anyone else have a problem like this???
  • thelthel Member Posts: 767
    sounds like the infamous dash rattle. Either have the dealer look at it (good luck) or turn up the radio (what I do).
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    yeah, sold my Matrix a month ago - traded in on an RSX after I couldn't sell it privately. Ended up with $12,250 in trade, to be exact. Initial offer was $11,5. Like thel, I thought it would be the car for me, and didn't drive it extensively enough to figure out it was a little short on sport - if I had gone with the XRS, I might still have it today. Hindsight is 20/20! There wre never any XRS around back when I was buying anyway. And either way, I became so irritated by the interior of the car, which from day two on began to strike me as harder and cheaper than I had first noticed. The only thing I really like about the interior is the seats, and despite that fact, they are really not supportive enough for sport driving. The bolsters just bend and give when you lean on them. Ultimately, the cavalcade of rattles and vibrations that I just could not stop despite multiple visits to the dealer (with three or four fixed in every batch, only to be replaced two weeks later) was the final straw.

    With the new car, I will miss the people-carrying ability of the Matrix, but apart from that I am very satisfied with the trade, and I was mindful of the passenger-carrying downside before I signed the papers.

    thel: I wouldn't mind hearing a trade-in story or two some time! I am like you - I didn't have a precise enough idea of what I needed in a car when I bought the Matrix - should have stuck to what I knew (sport coupes). I loved the looks so much that I didn't look enough before I leaped.

    tinosasso: if you search back through this thread and the Matrix and Vibe threads, you wil find this squeaky gauge problem to be very common in early cars, and lots of people had homegrown remedies that they claimed success with. Or you could have the dealer fix it.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • capitanocapitano Member Posts: 509
    I haven't had any dash rattle problems yet (knock on hard plastic).

    I would have preferred an RSX from the very start, but I could not allow myself the luxury of a vehicle with no space.
  • cttguycttguy Member Posts: 16
    I have a 2003 Vibe FWD automatic that I have owned for 15 months and has 13,000 miles. I have that terrible smell, rotten egg or sulfur, and it won't go away. I brought it back to the dealer 3 times with no result. Last month I filed a complaint with Pontiac and, as expected, they did put me through the ringer with questions and then had me bring it back to the dealer. I left it with the dealer for a full week and they came back and said that there is no fix for the problem and that it would go away in time. They also suggested changing brands and octane of gas. They also gave me an internal bulletin which acknowledges the problem but states that there is no cure. Just heard from General Motors and they basically said "sorry, there is nothing we can do but it the problem will go away in time".

    I am considering legal action against GM on this issue and am wondering if anyone else is as fed up with this as I am. I live in Chicagoland and you have either the heat or air-conditioning on about 9 months a year.

    Anyone care to join me in a discussion of a class action law suit?
  • stillageekstillageek Member Posts: 114
    I have gotten the smell twice. I drove around will I was almost out of gas, changed brands (from Exxon to Chevron) and the smell left. I had a small scent when I drove a small distance (.3 miles to 7-11) turned it off, went in, came back out and started it up. I am assuming there was quite a bit of unburned gas on a cold engine that caused it. Good luck. I have a Matrix XRS btw.
  • capitanocapitano Member Posts: 509
    I have an XRS too. I have never gotten the sulfur smell. I have gotten the clutch smell on occasion. It is all too easy to rev the engine too high when engaging the clutch in 1st gear.
  • protegextwoprotegextwo Member Posts: 1,265
    has the timing chain or a timing belt? Also, is the 1.8l 4cyl in the 2004 Pontiac Vibe a interference or non-interference engine? Thank you in advance for any response. :-)

    -Larry
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    in the Vibe/Matrix.

    not sure if it is an interference engine or not...but that would be unusual for Toyota.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • protegextwoprotegextwo Member Posts: 1,265
    Thank you for the response, Stuart. I've checked my 2004 Pontiac Vibe Owners Manual, nothing about timing belt/chain replacement intervals. So I suspected a chain.

    -Larry
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • mdvibeownermdvibeowner Member Posts: 1
    I have a White Vibe GT. I have a real concern over the paint, or lack of as it seems. It seems it has a problem with "ROAD RESIDUE" as the dealership tells me and my husband. We have to wash it to get the small black like dust off of the car and in certain areas the dealership has given us rubbing compound the clean it with. Is this a problem other White Vibe owners are having?" I have had it to the dealership here in Aberdeen, Maryland (Harco Oldsmobile-Pontiac) and the GM Rep has called and backed the story from the dealer. We also have a 2002 Chevy Silverado 4x4 Duramax and it shines like glass, no problem. Also the stickers that cover the paint in front of the tires turns yellow very quick????????? HELP???
  • herzogtum71herzogtum71 Member Posts: 470
    Or at least this is what a service manager at my dealer told me. (Won't damage the engine if it breaks.)
  • sb55sb55 Member Posts: 616
    I have a 04 Vibe that I got in December and I already have 10,000. miles on it. It is great, but something is making a noise under the drivers seat that I can't find and it is starting to drive me nuts.
    It sounds like something is sliding around in a plastic box under the seat. It is not unlike the noise a coin or something would make while sliding in a tupperware container that stops when it hits the side. Not only do I hear it, but I can feel it. It happens around every corner or when I brake or accelerate.
    There is some kind of appendage with wires coming out of it under the seat, but it doesn't seem to be coming from it

    Does anyone have this problem or know of a fix?

    2021 Toyota Venza Limited Hybrid, 2022 Ram 2500 Laramie 6.4 Hemi, 2007 Mazda MX-5 Miata PRHT

  • montanafanmontanafan Member Posts: 945
    I believe that there are heating ducts under the front seats that bring air flow to the rear floor. They may have large opennings and something could have got kicked in to them. Check it out with a flash light and see.
  • cttguycttguy Member Posts: 16
    Just received a response back from GM on the rotten egg smell. I find that their response borders on the unbelievable.

    They acknowledge that there is a smell but state that there is nothing they can do about it. They then state that they are sorry that I am unhappy with their decision and refer me to the Better Business Bureau.

    I am absolutlely dumbfounded by this response. What GM is saying is that they acknowledge a major defect in the Vibe but won't do anything about it. I know some of you may feel that this is petty but believe me when that smell kicks in, it is awful.

    Bottom line from this Vibe owner, don't buy one. I have owned 4 pontiacs in the last 12 years (2 ssei's, 1 montana and the Vibe) and after this experience would never, ever, buy another pontiac or GM product. If this is how they treat a loyal owner, I wonder how they treat others.
  • oceana142oceana142 Member Posts: 9
    A woman I work with has the following scenario:

    1) Vibe with 11,000 miles
    2) The wheel alignment was off when she bought the car
    3) After having the dealer try to fix it several times, she reports that the steering has no "play". Meaning that the car turns significantly with minimal steering effort. Kind of like a go cart.
    4) Also, the dealer said that since the Vibe has a relatively narrow track, she will have to get used to this kind of handling.

    Otherwise she really likes the car. Any thoughts on what can be looked at or if she should elevate to GM? At the least, I would like her to take the car to another dealer. Thank you.
  • montanafanmontanafan Member Posts: 945
    cttguy, You don't have a GM product, you have a Toyota product producted by NUMMI and marketed by GM/Pontiac. And in your first paragraph you say that GM says they "can't" do anything about it. Then you switch to "won't". That is two different things. GM has shown the way to resolve the issue, go to the BBB.
  • capitanocapitano Member Posts: 509
    Will BBB resolve the issue or just make a note of his complaint?
  • mcdawggmcdawgg Member Posts: 1,722
    Look around Edmunds - the rotten egg smell is not just a Toyota issue, it is the gasoline.
  • protegextwoprotegextwo Member Posts: 1,265
    Jim, our new 2004 Pontiac Vibe has been driven 985 miles. So far, no sulfer smell. However, both my 2000 Mazda Proteges had the smell of rotten eggs from time to time this winter. I would get out of the car after parking and catch a whiff of the Protege's tail pipe emissions and grimace. Prolly the infamous winter gasoline. Happened one or twice a week. Never caused me to stress out. Can't blame the vehicle for stinky gas. LOL!

    mc dawg is right about the many posts around Edmund Town Hall. Here is one opinion on the subject of the sulfer smell.

      "practically, any of the majors in your area are using the same refinery stocks and just adding your additive package for gas. There ARE differences in the refinery stocks. Some have already cut over to newer equipment that cuts sulfur in the gas to essentially none, some haven't yet. If you have a recent car that has a permeable-ceramic catalytic, sulfur can build up in them under light driving, and release in a hot stinky cloud of hydrogen sulfide if you floor it, tow, start driving uphill, or otherwise load the engine more or get the cat hot. There are a lot of yowls about that across the Edmunds Boards. The car makers all say use the lowest sulfur gas you can get. But, who has it is something a little hard to tell.

    -by Scott Schrader Mar 20, 2004 Town Hall
  • cttguycttguy Member Posts: 16
    Just a follow-up to a few of the posts;

    1. GM owns Pontiac, therefore the liability rests with GM.

    2. I said they said they could not do anything about the problem since they don't have a solution. However, they could offer restitution in the form of buying back the vehicle or offering another vehicle. This they WON'T do.

    3. As stated in my original post a couple of weeks ago, I have tried different brands AND octanes of gas, none of which has worked. For your Mazda Proteges you state that you smell it when you step out of the car. In this Vibe, the smell is like that inside when you are driving. LOL?
  • capitanocapitano Member Posts: 509
    Yes, got the smell in the corolla while driving, but only when stopping and allowing the cloud to catch up.

    The quoted text above seems to indicate that the occurances are sporadic because people have different driving styles. Since I have an XRS, I don't have the problem with "light driving." I rev it up now and again and have yet to experience the smell. So perhaps I keep my system hot enough to prevent the buildup in the first place.

    What is your daily drive like?

    BTW, I find it odd that you seem to expect a replacement vehicle for this problem.
  • cttguycttguy Member Posts: 16
    Driving is mainly short trips. I bought this car for my daughter to use (son will be using next year). The car is used to go back and forth to school, part-time work, dance classes, etc.

    One thing that I think needs to be said to others who have responded. I keep hearing about this being a gas thing, and it's common because of the type of gas, or it's common with Toyota or Mazda, yada, yada, yada. I have a Pacifica and an Audi which both use the same gas as the Vibe. No problem. I am 55 years old and have owned probably 20 vehicles in my time. No problem. If you, as a consumer, are comfortable with having this experience with the smell then all I can say is that you get what you deserve. I won't allow that. I have contacted the BBB and I will make Pontiac pay for damages in both real dollars and reputation.
  • capitanocapitano Member Posts: 509
    Real damages? Please elaborate.

    Reputation? I can't begin to fathom what you are getting at with this one.

    I would imagine GM has taken their position because of several factors. One is that only a small portion of owners report this problem. The second is that when these owners bring in the car for work, no mechanical defect can be found. They could replace the catalytic converter, but that would likely leave things unchanged if they believe that this a gasoline mixture and driving habit issue, not a mechanical one.
  • cttguycttguy Member Posts: 16
    Capitano:

    Real damages in terms of either buying the car back or in offering another vehicle, both at a premium. I know you think this sounds undoable but let me point out a key mistake that they made. I let them (the local dealer, with their approval) have the car for one week and they came back with no solution. However, the in milage was identical to the out milage which means that they did not even try to duplicate the problem or resolve it. I think the BBB will not look kindly on that.

    In terms of reputation, I have already cost them one sale. Don't forget, this is a perfect car for the teenagers and I am often asked by other parents what I think of the car. I already talked one potential buyer out of it. I will do my best to cost them as many sales as possible simply by telling others who ask the truth behind Pontiac's actions (or lack thereof).

    By the way, your point about how a car is driven is mentioned in their bulletin. Just to make sure that the car was being driven only the way they want it driven, I personally took the car out a couple of times to make sure I complied with how they want a car driven. Same problem. But think about it. Is what they are saying is that you cannot drive a Vibe for short trips without this problem occuring? That's absurd. The Vibe is not marketed as a road car, I wouldn't buy it for that reason. It is marketed as a small fun car for the young. Look at their adds if you don't believe me.
  • montanafanmontanafan Member Posts: 945
    Don't forget to tell everyone not to buy a Toyota also.
This discussion has been closed.