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BMW 5-Series Wagon 2004 Redesign
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I can and will compare the 5 to the LS. Why? Because I can. Also, size-wise, and performance wise, the LS is comparable. The 5 is supposed to be the segment leader right? Okay then. The LS is targetting the same segment, so why can't Joe User? Your statements that the 5 and LS don't compare almost sounds like somebody trying to have another person avoid the comparison.
I saw the 5, and personally like it. I still want to drive the various versions though. But that does NOT mean I won't consider the LS. In my test drives of the LS to date, I've been very impressed with handling, quietness, comfort (those A/C seats are great!), and the price/value. I personally hate Fords, but will consider this one.
As a seller, you sure seem very sure of the 5's future. You should be promoting the advances in the 5 and encouraging these comparisons. Right now, you sound a bit uncertain.
I am hoping the 5 continues to be great for BMW and for the drivers. It is controversial. It is radical. It is innovative. For those reasons, it may succeed, but for those same reasons, it may be doomed.
-Paul
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In comparing the lincoln to the BMW consider what is most important to you!! And, make sure that you get absolutely the biggest discount possible because that thing has depreciation written all over it. Total cost of ownership in a 3 year time period is WAY less on a 'bimmer. Not to mention it takes better than two full car lengths more to stop the Ford in a 0 to 70 panic stop. Wouldn't want to rearend anyone.
How 'bout those headlights, WOW!
-juice
Now that we have that out of the way, my concerns:
1. Styling doesn't say, "work 2 jobs and skip lunch to own me". It's ok, notice that's a small ok. A year old E60 will have more door dings than a 15 year old has pimples. That stuff may work on a Z4, but not on the family sedan.
2. Lots of new techno stuff. Given the track record of BMW's introduction of new gizmos, I'm at least 2, maybe 3 years away, from where I'd jump on board. But, that's why I'm driving an 03.
3. The BMW 6 rules, but needs poked out to 3.3 or even 3.6 liters. When the Altima, Accord and Mazda 6 have more grunt, it doesn't work. The E39 was seven years old, so it was forgiven. BMW needs to look at Nissan, Honda and Mazda, not as competitors, but as the low water mark of performance expectations.
I may live with a car from 3 to 7 years. I just don't like buying a $50k that doesn't have the torque of the pizza delivery guy driving the Altima. Yeah, I know, them's BMW horses and all. But, I expected better from a "new" car from the "ultimate driving machine" people.
/end rant
/start rest of life
I personally think the style for me was equal. Now, the 2004?---I just don't know. Aesthetically, the car does absolutely nothing form me. I will wait and see.
Have fun at Bangle bashing.
Not the Jag.....it's old fashioned and a lot of the components (taillights, door handles, trunk) are really not up to par for what you expect in this class. Back end looks like a Taurus.
Not the Lexus GS430.....atttractive but uninspiring maybe even boring. Fit and finish is good but it does little to distinguish itself. Headlights are cheap looking in a way which is surprising with fat clumsy-looking rubber seals sticking out awkwardly and the lower reflector looks like someone just stuck it on the car. nit picking, maybe but blah..
Not the Cadillac.....almost a cool shape but that front grille arrangement with the verticle headlights is almost as dumb as the rear with the blacked out area in the center. The closer you get the tackier it is.
Not the Mercedes E.....Long high hood is really sort of cool but it has nothing to accent it and ends up making me wonder what happened to the rest of the car. Tiny windows make the car look small and the trunk just drops off into nothing. A closer look leads me to question quality of hardware here (is that a durango door handle or a town and country trunk latch?) I want to like this car, too bad.
Not the Lincoln LS.....no no no
Any other suggestions?
If I was in the market now, I'd buy the E320. The appearance of the E60 would stop me at the showroom door. This isn't Bangle bashing, just personal taste.
Guess I'll have to reconsider the new E-class and perhaps the Audi A6 4.2 for the same money. I'll miss you, BMW.
Right now, the dealers are waiting, hoping with baited breath that the New "5" will be a BMW vehicle that actually sells .. I guess we will hafta to see and hope it's not traveling down the road of the new 745 .....
Terry.
This thread is called "BMW 5-Series 2004 Redesign", ergo the discussion is about the E60. Some like it, some don't but that's the point of the discussion. This thread will end soon enough when the subject becomes tired.
I hope BMW reconsiders and offers the items in the Sport Package as separate, individual options; I care about the Active Steering (provided it works as I think it does), but cant take any more Sport Suspensions or the silly run-flat monster tires, where the size is different for front/rear......just letting my frustration out!
M
I don't "ridiculously slam" the competition when I have a client here at my center, but it's fun in a forum such as this.
BMW should do OK against the pontiac. I think that the people who are truly potential buyers on a 5 will have the $$$ and drive right by every GM store when they are car shopping.
Only time will tell if you're flogging a dead horse with the E60. Personally, I think that the E60 will be trumped by the E class MB, future Audis and others.
I'm wondering if this look translates up to the larger, majestic sedans. However, I believe it works for the 3 and 5 series.
Check it out here:
http://www.cardesignnews.com/autoshows/2003/detroit/highlights/h1- - - - - - - - - 3-pontiac-g6.html
http://www.edmunds.com/news/autoshows/articles/83142/page012.html
M
Seems X5 and X3 are going to be bread winners. They're ugly too, but so are most SUVs, make that all SUVs. It's crystal ball time: Ford Freestyle FX and intelligently-designed "crossovers" (hate that term) will be a hit. Utility vehicles need lower weight, lower CGs and we are starting to see it. The convertible top enables them to do this without sacrificing utility. Would have expected more from the Germans in this area, but their marketing skills do not measure up to the engineering.
Next is the A6, even after this long. Inside Audi may even take 1st place.
Then comes the Volvo S80. They have a very nice corporate look, identifiable and purposeful. Not beautiful, but definitely not ugly.
Next I'd say Jaguar. Classical look for the conservatives.
Then Cadillac for the opposite reason, they're bold and very radical. The CTS-V looks sharp.
Then Saab's 9-5, a little quirky but off center and nice overall.
Then the GS430. Guigiaro did the last GS, then CALTY face-lifted it, and didn't quite get the details right.
The BMW 5, in my opinion, comes in last place. The eye brows up front with the fat rear end force you say "but she's got a great personality". Even inside it looks dull, the opposite of a cockpit feel you'd expect from a driver's car.
-juice
DESIGNMAN the return of the Amigo.
Suburu's are great in S. America. Plus, I might start taking the Pontiac a little more serious when I have a client tell me that they are considering one.
The eyebrows are so superior in form and function guys. Someone really get in there and compare just the headlights. We've got our winner!
Car mags should do a comparison between the two cars :-)
Got all worked up over the sheer beauty of these rolling works of art. I needed to take the equivalent of a cold shower by looking at pics of the E60. Whew!
The back of the car design looks like an afterthought. A cross between a Honda and a Subaru. In person, the trunklid still looks bad, just the way it looked in the numerous pictures I've viewed. Not too long ago, I read an article in Automobile magazine, where Bangle was quoted as saying "The 5 series looks better in lighter colors, while the 7 series looks better in darker hues." Well, I would have to disagree with his assessment of colors with the new 5 series. I saw two new 5's. One was jet black and the other one was titanium silver. The black car looked much better in person than the lighter silver car. The black car also enhanced the front end of the vehicle, making the signature grills look less "Pontiac-like" than what I have seen in pictures. Overall, the exterior was OKAY, but nothing so wonderful and radical that I had to have this new generation 5.
What I was really disappointed in was the interior. I have a 2003 525i with PP, SP and xenon lights, and my car's interior feels larger, and the fit and finish seems better. I love the fact that there is wood surrounding the entire interior of my car. The new 5 has a thick wood enhancement across the lower middle of the dashboard and on the console, but that's it. The doors are leather and chrome, and I thought the quality was lacking. My business partner noticed one of the chrome door handles was already badly scratched. Other impressions of the interior: (1) the headliner seemed cheap, (2) more cupholders, which is good, but the one for the driver is misplaced badly, (3) the climate control is back to turn buttons on the dash, like my old 1995 5 series. I'm sure this has to do with the new I Drive, in that I sat in the driver's seat, but did not turn the vehicle on, (4) the back seat did not feel roomier than my back seat, nor did it real feel any wider, (5) the back armrest is nice with two large cupholders built in, and finally, (6) I liked the spaceousness of the trunk, which appeared to be slightly larger inside than the E39 version.
In sum, I was not very impressed with this new iteration of the 5 and I am thrilled that I pulled the trigger on a new 2003. I will test drive the car this Friday, when I drive several of the BMW models on behalf of the Susan Komen Breast Cancer fund. I will give you my impression of the drive quality after this Friday.
M
Having said that as an impartial expert in the field I can assure you that the new 5 is a better car. Better comfort, better roominess, better handling, better ergonomics, better technology, better safety, better style.
It's really the only car that's better than our old 5's.
I would add that among the wagons, the Audi Avants take the cake. From some angles the wagons look better than the sedans.
The Benz wagons aren't as nicely sorted as their sedan counterparts, but they're still OK.
Saab has a nice looking wagon, too.
Any non-camo pics of the new 5 wagon out there?
-juice
Bless BMW for offering wagons here, they are all too rare.
I drove them back-to-back at an event where they were donating money to that cancer foundation for every mile you drove. I sampled every car they had. Purely for charitable purposes, of course! ;-)
-juice
I like the 5 wagon, and I would like it even more if they would put the 3.0 liter in it. The wagon handles better than the X5, but the X5 is superior to the E39 wagon in terms of roominess and hauling kids and all the obligatory things that go with them. Ever try to haul 2 kids across town w/o cupholders?
Just MHO. Buy and drive what you like,
Jack
I am willing however, to have an open mind still and look forward to driving the new car, especially testing out the new adaptive steering and the new and less complicated I-Drive system.
BTW, where is the central locking system button on the new car? I could not for the life of me find it in the cockpit. Is it attached to the key/driver's knob or I-Drive?
haul 2 kids across town w/o cupholders?
I wouldn't dare. ;-)
-juice
Obviously I cannot speak for other contributors to the board but I know I am being totally open minded. I bought my 530i at the end of July and my wife loved it so much she wanted one too but it just didn't make sense since her car was fairly new. Well as it turns out her car was destroyed by a large oak tree when Isabel rolled through Maryland and we are in the market today for a new car. The new 5 is NOT an option because of it's looks. We will either buy a 3 series (before those get screwed up as well) or the MB E320.
As I said in an earlier post I do not doubt that the new 5 may be superior in many respects but for 50k a car has simply got to look good. To buy a unattractive car because it performs well would be the same as preferring a 75 year old exotic dancer over a 25 year old because she is a "superior dancer". Looks count and sometimes they are the deciding factor.
Finally, if the car was a knockout I don't think anyone on this board would have any trouble acknowledging that, indeed I think we would all be looking forward to our next 5 series. As it is unless some drastic design changes are made to this car for many of us this will be our last new 5 series.
My wife likes the new 5, much better than the old one. It DOES have quite a bit more room (closer to my 2001 E 430).
But, my sister-in-law's 1998 BMW 540i Sport wagon is my all-time favorite rocket ship, uh, car.
It's in the eye of the beholder. I agree that if you don't like it, buy something else. (My $.02 psychology comment -- BMW lovers wanted so badly to love the new 5, aesthetically and technically, that the ones who don't like the looks are so disappointed that they are lashing out at Bangle and whoever else gets in their face here. They are just P-O'ed, and can't do anything about it . . . except complain here.)
MD