Lookout Ford, Dodge, Chevy: Here comes T150

rwellbaum2 · November 1999

Why would I want the dealer to change a timing belt, change my oil, change my spark plugs or any other routine maintenance? Did you read my post? Let me state it again for the reading impaired! I've always worked on my vehicles myself, which is why I've grown fond of the reliable Toys. I don't really trust a mechanic I don't know and I think it's a horrible waste of money. BTW, I occasionally read some of the many, many chevy truck problem topics. It's incredible! Most of the broken down chevy owners swear they'll never stop buying them no matter how abysmal the quality and reliability. They'd rather die in a crash from their malfunctioning ABS than buy a reliable, quality truck. Why? Simply because it's not a chevy. How can you reason with someone that fanatical?

rwellbaum2 · November 1999

I told the story of the screw and piece of innertube fixing the gas leak because it's kinda funny. In return for sharing a personal experience you twist it into yet another chance to be rude. Are you saying I'm a horrible engineer because I quickly fixed a problem with the materials available? Should I have just let the gas drain put of the tank? Think before your next post...PLEASE!!!!

quadrunner500 · November 1999

So that's your reason for not getting a quote on parts and labor to replace a Tundra I-Force timing belt, and posting it here, is because you do the work yourself?

Sure, I read your post. Isn't all that underhood maintenance your doing yourself, like changing a timing belt for $20 (in your dreams), exactly the kind of needless hassle you accuse the domestic trucks of requiring? You bet it is! And for the other non-do-it-yourselfers, I think it would be fascinating to know just how much this unavoidable expense is going to cost them. Info not coming from you? No surprise really.

jcmdie · November 1999

The "I" in I-Force stands for "Inadequate".

johnrr1 · November 1999

you fanatical toy owners must come from the same stock , first off i'm going on dodge truck number 2 because i mistakenly bought the wrong engine in my truck , and that was due in part to listening to my wife , that was totally stupid , so now that i have decided that i will replace it while i can get a decent return on what i paid .which according to some sources is better than most

still idiots like pyrodex can't comprehend my choice of dodge , i've defended my choice , which i really shouldn't have , i WANT and NEED a 3/4 ton diesel , since toyota doesn't make one i'd be a bigger fool than you toyota lovers to buy one anyway .

pryodex your train of thought seems very limited , is that the effect of the riddlin you take ?

rwellbuam , i keep forgetting that only the toy owners are allowed to be rude on this thread , if you can't take it then don't dish it out , i wasn't really question your engineering expertise as much as you bragging about how long you've been running around with that mickey mouse repair , i hope you do better service to the people that pay your salary , and i hope your hang glider is put together better than the bubblegum and silly string you use to keep the old toy going

mviglianco1 .. that is not an important aspect of my life i added that toyota comment for people the likes of you , mean spirted and rude seem to be the way of the toyota flag wavers as i have seen here , so as i seem to be endlessly attacked from many i feel even though childish to return the same behavior that i am afforded by the toyota faithful, and thats a bet that i'd be happy to take that your rusted toy will outlast my new truck , is your rusted toy even still on the road , and do you put more than 20 miles a month on it ? thats the only way it will outlast my CUMMINS POWERED RAM . rwellbaum toots his 178,000 miles but you have to go to his profile to get the real story , engine number 2 and its held together with duct tape , i live in new hampshire and your trucks would not be on the road in the condition i expect they are in , no rust is allowed , period and thats a way of life with a toy truck

until i get bored with the childish behavior of the toyota faithful i will treat them like they treat me , respect is earned not commanded

johnrr1 · November 1999

i was wrong , its not 178,00 it was 280,000 , but now that i went and check your profile , that you recently changed by the way , now your 78 has 380,00 with 280,000 on the first and 100,000 on the second ? i really find that hard to believe , how many rebuilds on that first engine ? how many beds and did you weld the frame back together a couple of times ? the state of califorina is pretty strict and that toy must have been well into the gross polluter status at 150,000 , you should have taken the $750 when they were scrapping cars that would probably have been alot more than you would ever sell it for ...

pomy11 · November 1999

Lots of post on here about loyalty, etc. For your information, just had oil changed at 3000, the easiest way to get to the filter off is to remove the plastic splash pan. Thought you would like to know, bothersome, but easy. By the way the "i" in iForce is for "incredible".

johnrr1 · November 1999

good point pomy , but it seems that its a sin to be loyal to anything but the MIGHTY (hardly) TOYota , oh i thought the I stood for "incapable"

mviglianco1 · November 1999

Believe me I drive it much more then 20 miles a month, try 20K since last March. It has been around the country twice in the last 2 years. Drove it fom NC to New Orleans, to some off roading in New Mexico, Arizona, camped all the way up the West Coast, snow camping in Oregon and Washington then down to Colorado (more offroad) and then back to NC. Drive it to work everyday and and several hundred miles everyweekend either to mountains or to beach where it takes on the sandunes fairly often. My dad is buying it and will take much better care then I do. It will be around for a while. Honestly though, if one were to sit down and do some thorough research on what truck to buy without any previous brand loyalties how could one ignore all the bad things said about a specific make. I wanted a Dodge truck several years back but was told by 3/4 not to get one. Of course there are individual experieces for all makes but I just dont think you can ignore the big picture.

andy_jordan · November 1999

I can believe I stands for incredible - as in its incredible that you have to start taking bits off of the underside of the truck to get at the oil filter.

pyrodex · November 1999

johnrr1,
You bought a truck with the wrong engine and I'm the idiot? I'll have to think about that one. Did the fact that you'd need to do some HEAVY towing and hauling escape you when you bought the 1/2 ton Ram. If so, how?

What the heck is "riddlin"? Is that some kind of secret Dodge language?

Andy,
You don't HAVE to take parts off...it just makes the job less messy.

andy_jordan · November 1999

Your fellow Tundra owners seem to think that the inconvenience is significant to have started a topic here to discuss it - I believe drilling holes was mentioned to try and resolve the issue. Sounds like its a big deal to some.

Of course I am not expecting you to admit that this is bad design - after all its a Tundra.

johnrr1 · November 1999

actually idiot was the only "clean for all eyes" word i could come up with without having to resort to a dictionary , and i guess i spelled it wrong ...ritalin ... it's a drug given to hyperactive CHILDREN which seems to be the category you fall into best . but riddlin is dodge slang for "stupid lemming that thinks toyota is grand" , but it loses something in the translation ...

as far as me being an idiot about truck choice my only fault was running my first purchase through my wife , this was done to keep some peace , but since i no longer allow her any input in choice of a vehicle which i will spend many enjoyable hours driving i'm buying what i wanted in the first place , but actually the 1/2 ton with the 360 is enough truck to do what i have put it through , but i want MORE !!!!! and more is the CUMMINS DIESEL and since only dodge has the CUMMINS i have but one choice , whether you like it or not , agree with it or not, its MY choice , it may not be the best choice, but it's MY choice , and like i don't fault you much for your choice , its your brand of blind loyalty that causes you to stand up for the TOYota , just because they built a few good vehicles , of course none come to mind , you feel that everything made by TOYota is excellent , if the EDSEL had a silly TOYota symbol on it you would back it to the hilt.

johnrr1 · November 1999

mvig , what is the big picture , i don't want to ignore it but i just don't see it , please tell us

the big picture let me guess , all the automakers sell out to toyota since they are the best automaker period , after there is no more competition they re-release the T100 and the 88 tercel , and we all thank them for it ???

jcmdie · November 1999

There are various things that each of the trucks do better. Ford, chevy, dodge hauls and tows better and toyota rusts better. I've heard mention that there are a lot of complaints on this board about the domestic trucks from thier owners. The primary reason for this is that the domestics outnumber the imports so greatly that they are hardly a factor. I have yet to see a tundra on the road further than a mile from the local dealership. The T100 was nearly non existent and the baby toyota was a great little transportation piece, but not a work truck by any means. That's what you buy if you put on a lot of miles in a short time ( gotta beat the rust ) and want room to occaisionally throw a garden rake in the back.

johnrr1 · November 1999

jcmdie , i was thinking the same thing , the toy is nothing more than a motorized wheelbarrel for the yuppie

jcmdie · November 1999

Where won't you find toyota trucks? Construction sites, road crews, tradesmen, farms, ranches,pulling campers or boats, being used as fleet vehicles, and landscape services.

Where will yo find toyota trucks. Supermaket parking lots, yuppie driveways, and repair shops.

pyrodex · November 1999

Keep the witty remarks coming. They are first class! I'm writing all these things down for future refernece. They are that good! Gotta get me a Dodge. LOL!!!!!!!!

pyrodex · November 1999

I was laughing so hard I spelled "reference" incorrectly! YeeHaaa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

606zpx · November 1999

Its been a while since I read through all the posts and was pretty amused with all the mud slinging going on. You all can argue about what truck is best. Blah, blah, blah. Your truck choice depends on what you need it for.
Seriously, if you need to do towing upward of 10K pounds of course the toy is not the right vehicle...the one to get is a 3/4 ton diesel, but unfortunately they dont make great daily drivers (though they are adequate at this). I have a Dodge ramcharger now and its been alright, but I needed to buy a new truck recently. My needs are pretty much occasional towing of my 5000-6000 pound boat rig. Otherwise, its for daily transportation.
The Dodge ram is an alright vehicle, but is dated, rough, questionably reliable, same engine as in my 87 ramcharger---simply behind the times (though I will admit that the duelly cummins is something of an exception).
The Ford Im sure is fine, how could a truck be a dog AND a best seller at the same time. But my previous ownership of a f150 in the past that spent more time in the shop than out prohibited me from buying one (who knows, maybe I am missing out..but if I bought one and it started having problems I would kick myself).
My second choice was chevy/gmc and the options, room, engine choices are great....but no fourth door yet, some nagging first year problems, and too long for the garage were major factors in my deciding against them---still a fine truck though.
Finally, I bought the Toyota because it will more than haul my boat with ease, has great performance (outrunning or equalling all in 0-60 and virtually the same towing capacity). The rear seat room is not great, but the ride, quiet interior, slightly smaller size, and projected reliability (as well as anticipated resale based on other toyota models) made it the best choice for me.
So there you go..toyota is the best for me (maybe not others).
606zpx

mviglianco1 · November 1999

If anyone needs ritalin it is you, calm down buddy. This is all in good fun here. The big picture is that there are other car manufacturers most of which are believed to make better cars then Dodge. Happy Thanksgiving

teagan · November 1999

Webster says it best DODGE; TO AVOID!!!!

pyrodex · November 1999

I think several people on this post need to relax a little. They sure get worked up over little, insignificant things. I sure love to push their buttons!!!!!!!!!!

jcmdie · November 1999

Pyrodex- I wouldn't want you to have a dodge. You wouln't enjoy it. You're just a little too hung up on the toyota nameplate.

606zpx- Exellent post! Finally someone who bought a toyota because it fits his needs instead of toyota being the best thing since sliced bread. I happen to like toyota in general and wasn't so much disappointed in thier tundra as I was in the fact that It didn't fit my needs well enough to consider.

teagan- My grandfather thought that was old. You can do better. Or maybe that's your best,after all you did buy toyota.

I took my 7,000# boat, loaded the back of the truck completely full, and and took my wife and two teenage kids in back on a 1,000 mile vaction this past summer. There is no way I could have completed this trip in the tundra. Different uses require different vehicles. If I had to tow a fifth wheel I couln't consider what I drive now.

andy_jordan · November 1999

Different trucks, different uses. Tundra has an image problem in some minds. Toyota, and most Tundra owners say it is full size. Most others say it is more like the Dakota. In truth it is somewhere between the two.

The problem is one of image, and is of Toyota's making. They produced a full size truck that was 7/8 of full size. Now this is a niche in the market I am sure - 606zpx is a case in point. The problem that the Tundra will always have is that it is going to come up short as a full size workhorse truck. For this reason it will never be a mainstay of the construction sites etc.

Lets face it we hear a lot about Tundra quality because that is the most easily perceived advantage over domestics. The Tundra doesn't measure up (literally or figuratively) in many other categories. That is not a problem, it was the way it was designed. What annoys people here (myself included) is when people won't acknowledge that simple fact.

pyrodex · November 1999

Andy,
Not ONE pro-Tundra person has ever said the Tundra is as big as a Silverado, F150, or a Ram. We have never said the Tundra's backseat is not smaller, too. We simply like the marvelous engine, refinement, quality build, and Toyota reliabilty. I don't understand what your problem is? I assume you feel the F150, Slverado, and Ram are "full-size" trucks. They are not all equal in size, however. Where, EXACTLY, does full-size begin? I have not found the official "full-size" specs listed anywhere. I am not the first poster to request this info...it's just that there has never been an answer. Your help will be appreciated.

Jcmdie,
The Tundra fits my needs just fine.

trucks4me · November 1999

Here them specs folks be askin on:

Wheelbase Length Width
Chevy : 143 227 79
Ford : 138 224 79
Dodge : 138 224 79
-----------------------------
Tindra: 128 217 73
difference -15 -10 -6

Use your eyes on this one now. Them tindras not the full sizer, its plain for all to see. Good luck on this one now!

rs_petty · November 1999

But Andy, your Dodge won't measure up to a 3/4 Ton diesel at a construction site or down on the farm either. The manufacturers know that most 1/2t trucks built today are being used for personal transportation - not a work truck. Comfort, safety, convenience are more important than pure guts. I get a kick out of Chevy's new commercial for the Silverado showing it hauling a Hereford bull out to the herd. It'll do it, but probably not for years without problems, and not as good as 3/4t's (or my personal favorite of a Allis-Chalmers and cattle trailer). We are so lucky to have 4 good trucks to pick from. The competition will make them all better over the next few years. Happy Trails!

andy_jordan · November 1999

pyrodex - I didn't say that you were claiming Tundra to be physically as large as any of the big three - nor did I suggest that you personally were saying anything. I said that Toyota and a good many Tundra owners (I mentioned NO names) were claiming Tundra to be in the category of trucks known as 'full size'.

rs petty - I am sorry I think I must be missing your point - 1/2 ton won't comparre with 3/4 - well no of course it won't. I think you are trying to suggest that most trucks at construction sites etc are larger than 1/2 ton - I don't disagree. My point was that of the smaller trucks you do see there virtually all will be F150, Ram 1500 or Sierra / Silverado 1500.

quadrunner500 · November 1999

Starts out with a game of poker. A guy throws in some chips, 2nd guy looks at his hand, then throws a warranty deed on the pile to call the bet.

Next scene, Silverado towing away a house. Moral, a full house always beats three of a kind. Bob Seger strikes the chord, Silverado...The Truck.

Funny.

Brutus · November 1999

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that most people consider a 1/2 ton and above to be a full size truck. Are the tow ratings, GVWR, and GCWR of the Tundra similar to the Big 3? My guess is that it is close in all of those categories, which means that it belongs in the full-size class.

As far as the actual size of the truck, consumers will likely weigh those possible disadvantages against what is likely better handling (smaller wheel base equals easier turning ability). For me personally, I would rather have the larger cab size, but I'm very comfortable driving big pickups as every day drivers in heavy traffic.

It seems a little unfair to question the Tundras reliability and durability based it not having been around long enough and then in the same breath fault them for not having many trucks showing up at the construction sites or in the fleets. It seems to me that most fleet trucks are 3/4 and 1 ton trucks. The 1/2 tons get worked, but not as hard and there aren't as many of them on the site. If the Tundra proves it's durability and reliability over time, and Toyota offers fleets a comparable price, I'm sure you'll see more of them showing up at construction sites in the future.

Personally, I welcome Toyota to the full size pickup market. I hope the durability and reliability does prove to carry over to the pickups. I really hope that Toyota gets enough confidence with this foray into the 1/2 ton market to move into the 3/4 and 1 ton market. When there is more high quality competition, we benefit by getting better trucks from all of the manufacturers at better prices. The best thing that happened for pickup owners in the last 10 years or so was Dodge stepping it up several notches in the quality and design area, which forced Ford and GM to step it up. Look at how many changes have happened in the pickup market since Dodge introduced the new Ram.

pyrodex · November 1999

I know you're a Chevy guy but do your specs mean the Ford and Dodge are not full-size because they are smaller than the Chevy? Does the F350 crew cab dually make your Silverado a mid-size truck? Please explain EXACTLY what dimensions/specs mark the beginning of the full-size truck market and why. Thanks.

And ANDY,

Please answer the same question. I am awaiting your response. Thanks.

andy_jordan · November 1999

pyrodex - grow up or shut up. You know as well as I do that there is no definition. As Brutus notes full size is usually considered to be 1/2 ton or above. Trucks4me, or whatever his name is this week provided measurements. The big 3 are SIMILAR, the Tundra is noticeably smaller. You knw it, I know it, everyone knows it.

Brutus, you make a good point concerning newness of Tundra for construction sites, time will tell I guess.

I wasn't knocking Tundra reliability, in fact my point was the same as yours - reliability must be proved over time. Unfortunately that is something that many Tundra owners refuse to accept saying that the Tundra must be reliable because all Toyotas are reliable. My point, maybe they are, but we don't know yet. This logic applies in any case. I jumped in a little while ago when someone attacked the Tundra collision ratings. I pointed out that they weren't yet available so wait and see. If I had followed the 'all Toyotas are reliable' logic my point would have been Tundras kill people in side impacts because Tacomas do. Anyway, I digress.

In terms of where Tundra fits in to the 'full size' picture - Brutus your definition is as good as any. A maxxed out Tundra - the ones with the 7000lb towing capacity and the V8 compares with the V8s in the big 3 1/2 tons (in fact the numbers maybe somewhat better). The problem is that is where Tundra ends - it compares with a low to medium equipped 1/2 ton. As noted and accepted, the Tundra is also noticeably smaller in terms of dimensions.

I guess a comparison would be between Ranger and Dakota. A well equipped Ranger can compete with a low to medium equipped Dakota, but that is as far as it goes. Dakota can do more. Would many people put Ranger and Dakota in the same category - no they serve different market sectors.

trucks4me · November 1999

As to that size, don't really need them stick measurements I posted up some, just use your eyes on this one pyrodex. As far as the haul, that max for them tindras be 7200, them limited ones even less! The big 3 go 8600 out the door. Best compare them tindras to the S-10 and Ranger now, that be a more valid compare. Just take a look at that stumpy bed now, it only be about 15 inch deep at most! What good can that do the workin man now? That bed more for haulin the grocery bags home, than for workin now. That factory never should of called them the full size now, cuz it just isn't so. Good luck on this one now!

trucks4me · November 1999

Got this one here off another toy topic:

Just in case you are looking for a cap for your
Tundra and most manufacturers are selling T-100s
this is what I found for diminsions of the 2:
Tundra SR5 Access SB (Toyota website): 76.5" l X
61.2" w; T-100 SR5 SB (MS CarPoint) 76.1" l X 61.4" w. Don't really know how much difference that is when you try to fit one. The length difference is a little less than a 1/2 inch which is where any problem may occur. Sure wish SnugTop would make their Top Gun model for it!

Looks like that factory re-used that same bed from that T100 for them new tindras now. Seems I remember that factory sayin that T100 was the full size one too! Good luck on this one now!

johnrr1 · November 1999

teagan , i notice you still only have that same page from the dictionary , i also just noticed that you changed your profile , i'm glad that a hemi challenger will never have to be molested by your sorry butt , will that supra have no sidewall tires , a chrome coffee can tailpipe and 15" subs thumping out your favorite hip hop sounds?

johnrr1 · November 1999

all i can say is your are hopeless and lost , but like all toyota owners past and present , you fell just because the toy company may have built one decent car that everything else is just a good

mviglianco1 · November 1999

I havn't seen anyone post that the Tundra is as big as any of the Big 3's full size. Toyota is not trying to make YOU happy, they are trying to make money and are doing so by selling a DIFFERENT truck. Maybe they are smart enough not to jump into a flooded market, maybe they will wait and and gain some following with the Tundras and go one step farther in the future. It is no mistake that the Tundra is the size it is, they did not design and engineer this truck and then say "darn, its 10" shorter and 6" thinner, Oh well" The people who design and market all of these trucks are smarter then the people who buy them and they are all suceeding at the only thing that counts, MAKING MONEY. Why are you all so threatened by the Tundra?

johnrr1 · November 1999

606zpx , as long as you feel you made a sound and thought out choice ,and if the toyota fits the bill , then buy it , but from my experience towing close to capacity is where you may get the feeling that maybe it could be better , that holds true for all trucks , as i have seen postings about even the mighty diesel powered rigs feeling a bit winded when towing near capacity , as far as comparing your 87 ramcharger to the latest magnums , i have also owned both and there is NO comparsion between the 87 which was probably about 180 hp and the latest 360 at 245hp , and if your ramcharger was a 318 it was even a bigger slug ,

andy_jordan · November 1999

I disagree with absolutely nothing you say.

Unfortunately various topics here at Edmunds have copious posts from people who do see the Tundra as direct competition - a view that corporate Toyota have also taken.

johnrr1 · November 1999

well i have to give the toy company credit for one thing , either that or those people were very stupid to begin with , i did notice a few more domestic built full size trucks at the local toy dealer yesterday , don't know whats up with that but good luck to them , i would think though that the toy dealers would have just wholesaled them off to free up some cash , according to the toyota faithful the domestics will be on the lot for years , why would someone buy one of them if the supposed best built full size truck in the universe is on the same lot ... ok let me have it

johnrr1 · November 1999

i guess i owe you an apology , while scrolling back thru to find when i pissed in bmckenzies cornflakes i found your original mileage claim , i let all this lunacy of the toy being the greatest thing since sliced bread cloud my thinking somewhat , anyway keep those sheetmetal screws and innertubes well stocked in your glovebox , the next owner will need them

trucks4me · November 1999

This here topic should have been:

Look out S10 and Ranger, here comes T150

Many here try to argue that limited be a full sizer now. Even that factory calls that tindra the full sizer. We all saw this on that T100 a few years back, and look what happened to that one! Maybe in a few years, that factory will make another new one, and call it a full size now! Maybe it might even be a full sizer. But till then, the fact is the fact on the size of them limited ones. Good luck on this one now!

johnrr1 · November 1999

i fail to see what your problem is , and i won't even attempt to guess , if you have read and paid any attention to any of my posts you would only see me questioning how the new toy can be the greatest truck ever just because its built by toyota , the truck has NO track record , till it does i will as i do with the first year of ANY vehicle foreign or domestic ... avoid it like the plague

its great to see the toy dealer leave a little of the money here , but in the big picture most of the money goes overseas , they are not fooling anyone with an ounce of brains that its an american built truck , just because it assembled here with a hodge podge of parts from around the world , the bottom line is is a foreign manufacturer and the bulk of the profits go elsewhere ... , now i don't have a problem with it being foreign , i just don't have a use for it or any of them , they are small and tinny and i just refuse to own one , it may be a good truck for the yuppie that needs a truck that is nothing more than a motorized wheelbarrel , in fact we all can thank the yuppie for the prices we pay for trucks these days , but that a subject i care not to fight

and i'm clueless , i have worked on the mighty toys , they suck , period , thats my experience , and i have been researching the cummins for a possible purchase for 5 years , i'm not claiming to be an expert , but i try to pass on what i know when it comes to problems that are similar between the gas and diesel powered dodges , as you seem to do , i will take all your posts with a grain of salt

also in henpecked is how you chose to go thru life thats your call , i was happy before i met my wife and will find that happiness if we should go our seperate ways , maybe you should trade in that cummins for a tundra if its such a great truck , afterall it is a TOYOTA .,.. good day

johnrr1 · November 1999

bmcken .. now i see where i got under your skin , it was correcting you on your post in topic 919 , did it bother you that much ? i would think a dyed in the rough world traveler as yourself would just let something like that roll off your back being as tough skinned as your state , or have you softened up letting the new king (your wife) run your castle ??? happy thanksgiving

Brutus · November 1999

When you look at what most 1/2 ton owners use their trucks for, the Tundra should do fine. When I was in Dallas, I couldn't believe how many 2wd 1/2 tons there were, almost always running empty, being used as daily commuters. Many had the six bangers also. Most people I know who plan to tow over 5,000 pounds on a fairly regular basis usually opt for the 3/4 ton.

This is Toyotas first step into the full-size market. They are testing the water. If the Tundra is successful, the next step will be more engine and axle ratio options, which will them give them more towing capacity. Toyota has proven that they can make good trucks. Just look at their SUVs. The Landcruiser consistently gets ranked at or near the top of every list I've seen. The Landcruiser isn't winning it's ranking by style points alone. It rates high with it's off-road performance. When it comes to luxury SUVs, the Lexus models also rank high.

The pickup market is much more unpredictable. Besides brand loyalty, there are more pickup owners who pride themselves on their "buy American" patriotism, so it's going to be a tougher market for a foreign manufacturer to crack. Since the Big 3 can't really claim their trucks to be "all American" made and manufactured, it's really more of a perceived patriotism in my opinion. Bet you if you go to the houses of some of those die-hard "buy American" people, you will find plenty of "Made in somewhere other than US" stickers on a good chunk of what they have, such as toys, furniture, electronic equipment, household appliances, and even clothes.

If Toyota is making a 1 ton dually 4x4 in 5-10 years when I'm shopping for my next truck, I'll take a good look.

jcmdie · November 1999

pyrodex- What are you on drugs or what? All I'm hearing from the toyota owners is about (unproven) reliability and that the tundra "is to full size". On another note I'm glad you bought a truck that fits your needs.

pyrodex and brutus- The dakota load and tow ratings are nearly identical to some of the full size trucks, so does that make it full size. I don't think so. Dodge doesn't think so. They market it as mid size. Tundra is marketed as full size. There is no definition for full size. I guess a ranger can be a full size too or at least a full size jr. Point is the tundra is a fine truck I'm sure but much more comparable to a dakota than a F150.

johnrr1 · November 1999

you my friend are one of the few toyota / all trucks supporters when ANY sense , but you made one mistake , the tindra is the toy's second attempt , the first being the much maligned (and for a number of reasons) T-100 , yes there are alot of people running around in 2 wheel drive pickups down south , no snow is a big reason , but alot probably do because once you have a pickup you A) wonder how i ever lived without one and

will never not have one again , do mostly to the added expense of having to many vehicles registered , if hi insurance wasn't a concern , i would probably an SUV , like the explorer or a jeep , and a 2 wheel drive 3/4 ton diesel pickup , leave the pickup in the driveway and ride in the lap of luxury in the suv

and about my yuppy bashing:

i guess that one thing i can thank the yuppies for is how plushly appointed my new truck will be , but seriously i wish it wasn't , the automakers have gone with the car like ride in the pickups because of whining from yuppy types that its a rough ride ... get a car is a freakin' truck , it's a nice ride mind you but hey make it car like and as soon as you try to use it like a truck its gonna break , and i'm sure that when your lovely tundra is pulled in on the back of a ramp truck with mud to the roof pillars your lovely little warranty will probably be null and void , the service guy is gonna look at you and say , hey its a yuppy transport not an "ironman stewart wannabe" ... but i may be wrong , hit the car wash first and clean the mud out of the tailpipe ... lol

johnrr1 · November 1999

well yes brutus , most of my electronics come from overseas , but thats not my fault , either the american companies have them built there , or there isn't any american competition , but except for electronics , just about everything else is from a us manufacturer , i have no control where they make the stuff ...

pyrodex · November 1999

I go out to do some drugs....manage to get lost ...finally hitch a ride from some Dodge guy and get back home to 14 new posts!! Even have some from Rubluetoo!!! What a day.

Andy,
Your Dakota is marketed as mid-size. However, it is noticeable smaller than my Tundra. Is Dodge lying to consumers? Your logic is ridiculous. MY Tundra will run circles around your Dodge(on road or off)...get over it!!

Rubluetoo,

How long you gonna get to stay around this time?

johnrr1,

Maybe you can make your next SUV the new Toyota which will be based on the Tundra platform. Are you drooling yet?

Lookout Ford, Dodge, Chevy: Here comes T150

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