Acura TSX

delmar1 · August 2005

You would trade your 6 speed gas for a diesel? What type of horsepower and performance would you sacrifice if you had that diesel?

My thoughts...the MPG of the TSX is rather decent for the performance. If the criteria is economy, there are plenty of other alternatives (Civic, Tercel, etc). If you want an entry sports-luxury vehicle there is the TSX, Audi A4, etc.

aquaticexplore · August 2005

If you want an entry sports-luxury vehicle there is the TSX, Audi A4, etc.

My point exactly. You can buy the A4 in Europe(dont know about the states) with a 6 speed manual and turbo diesel. It simply rocks. Far better torque than my tsx 6 speed, great cornering etc. In a race i don't know what would win - the Audi down low and the tsx up high perhaps. The engine is completely the opposite of the tsx's . need passing power/ Upshift. Yup. Upshift. All the torque is low (<300 for sure), whereas ours is just getting going.

I bought my car knowing prices of gas were likely to rise and that it required premium. I will continue to put premium in. However, given the chance of a turbo diesel that got 50 instead of 25 mph, I would jump at it. We can get better mileage than 25, but not if you're having fun. Diesel doesn't seem to care as much. All I can say is: pox on GM for tainting North Americans to this technology 20 years ago. Read some reviews of honda's 2.2L diesel and see what the Euros think of it. It is even better than the Audi.

delmar1 · August 2005

Ahhh...that is not fair to compare a turbo versus non-turbo. Remember...apples to apples now....

Also....don't forget...the emission/smog controls in the USA is very much different...so there is also that aspect to consider that will boost what experiences you had. Bring it to the states...and the emissions will eat it alive.

One day...we will be driving vehicles similar to the "Smart Cars" that are in Europe. (how many here know what I am referring to? A brand of cars that is basically a golf cart).

biker4 · August 2005

Most diesels are turbo so there's no other way to compare to a gas engine.

Did you know the 2.2 icTDi in the Euro Accord has less emissions that the gas version?

It's only a matter of time, not if, the diesel will make it to the US. And if you're not a lead footed driver you can get even better than 50MPG. If you are light footed you can already get 40MPG on the hwy with the current TSX.

There's no need to get down to Smart car sized vehicles - subcompacts like the upcoming Fit from Honda or Yaris from Toyota will be small enough to get almost the same milage but provide more practical transportation.

fredvh · August 2005

40 MPG on the highway?? Aren't we stretching here a little? I would be interested in hearing what TSX owners are getting for mpg though.

kyfdx · August 2005

That is 40 MPG in Canadian dollars... I think it works out to about 29 MPG in USDollars..

delmar1 · August 2005

I am not beating up on alternative to the gas power cars in the US. Just that we have become accustomed to power cars (200hp in tsx, 270hp in tl, etc). I will be honest and have not driven a diesel...but the expectation is that the acceleration is not going to be there. Just as indicated, most diesels are turbo (in hopes of making up for lost acceleration) and cannot be compared to gas engines.

For those that do not know what a 'Smart' car looks like...please click the link below. (just know it won't have the performance that most north american drivers expect)
http://www.smart.com/smart_uk/smart_uk_start.html

rko2 · August 2005

Ok, first of all, we are not comparing apples to apples. If you look at the european accord (TSX) and compare the stats, numbers don't match up. The 2.4L engine claims about 22 mpg urban and 41 mpg extra urban, whatever that means. This is not the same as the mileage americans are seeing. For example, there is no way that I could get 40 mpg highway unless all the roads I drove were downhill, and I took a minute to get up to 60 mph. My best guess is that the engines are tuned quite differently due to emission standards in the US.

Also, it sounds like that deisel engine is very new, so it would make sense that Honda would introduce it elsewhere in the world first. If all goes well, it may come here...especially with current gas prices. You also have to realize that not ever gas station here has deisel. So, consumers in the US have to be more careful when using deisel, especially in urban areas where there is less truck traffic.

The point is that light footed US drivers can't get much over 30-32 mpg in their TSX. And, deisel gas is not as prevalent in the US.

fredvh · August 2005

It does not make any difference what currency we are talking about. A gallon of gas is a gallon of gas no matter what it costs. I would like to hear from someone that is getting 40 MILES PER GALLON. Now if you are talking about a country's different( different from a 128 ounce US gallon) gallon then it would make a difference.

aquaticexplore · August 2005

Simple reply: TSX is not sold, nor I doubt will it ever be, with a turbo. All diesels today are turbo. So, it is a fair comparison. In Europe you can buy a 2.0 or 2.4 L gas Accord (tsx) or a 2.2 L turbo diesel. Nothing else. All I say is give us the same options. Emissions are a problem, but 5 engineers together could solve it in less than 1 month.

We have smart cars in Canada, and the US will soon be gettign them. they are all over Europe, as you mentioned. Not my cup of tea.

aquaticexplore · August 2005

the 2.4 Euro Accord has only 190HP versus our 200HP. Indeed, it is tuned differently. I suspect the gearing is even more profoundly different. I would like my 6th gear to be taller. 3300 at 80mph is too high.

The turbos offered in the Audi (dont knowe about the accord) fell stronger at launch than the 2.4 gas. The gas catches up as the diesel revs climb.

The turbo Mercedes S (or E) class is faster than its gas comparison. It may have duel turbos, but the old adage of diesels being slow is wrong.

I think the 2.2L accord turbo does 0-62 in 9 seconds or so. Slower than gas, but not by much. The engine got raves from the Euro press and won lots of awards. Bring it on.

aquaticexplore · August 2005

the diesel only has about 140HP but has about 280 pounds feet of torque. It is torque that will get you off the line. In my mind, low or no sacrifice.

drewba · August 2005

... and it normal city driving, it is low-end torque that makes a car feel powerful, not horsepower. I'd be very interested in a diesel for a future car purchase if they make it over here.

delmar1 · August 2005

"low-end torque that makes a car feel powerful, not horsepower."

That is correct. Torque = "feels". Horsepower "moves" a car.

If I was seeking an economical and ecological solution....I would purchase a hybrid before I go to diesel.

frisconick · August 2005

Excellent point. Plus diesal exhaust is extremely toxic.

307web · August 2005

Hybrids are not economical due to high purchase prices.

aquaticexplore · August 2005

Respectfully, you need to go test drive a Passat diesel and then come back on here (Passat is the closest thing you can get right now to the Accord diesel). It will change you mind about diesels.

Hybrids sold in North America are a sham. It has NOTHING to do with ecology, and everything to do with performance. They barely exceed the pure gas versions in everyday driving.. North Americans are green suckers. It is the Robbins/Sarandon clowns who think they are saving the earth with these things.

Mercedes is testing a diesel hybrid. Real power and real fuel efficiency.

Diesel exhaust is very toxic. Two developments here though: 1) clean fuel standard in 2006 will drop sulphur levels dramatically, cleaning up the fuel and the exhaust. 2) Exhaust particle traps being developed (used by MB) dramatically clean the exhaust. Some gases, like carbon dioxide, are much lower in diesel exhaust than with gas exhaust. Diesel hybrids are the near term future of fuels. Let the price of gas rise to $3-4 and it will get the morons out of the Hummers and provoke Hon/Toyo/Niss/Mitsu/GM/MB/Ford etc to bring their diesels over. Chrysler-MB is already planning to do so. Let the sun shine in!

delmar1 · August 2005

Thanks...and as I admitted earlier...I have not driven a diesel...and I am not interested in VW products.

I will pass on driving a diesel until a later time. I am a "North American green sucker" who is still a traditional western capitalist who still wants a well handling performance sports luxury vehicle that by many standards is burning too much fuel at 20-25mpg mixed driving...but what I considering reasonable for my three cars. I am one of many global drivers who are with BMW 7 series who are intermixed with the 50hp "Smart Cars".

If I was more concerned with saving a few bucks on gas...I would not have even looked at the TSX or anything else in its class. I'll enjoy my cars until the time comes then I will consider the alternatives. Until then, I will be one of the morons when gas rise to $3-4. I have worked hard...and got to live a little to enjoy.

Ultimately...the key is that the TSX doesn't have a diesel. And if it did...I wouldn't select it as it does not fulfil my requirements and needs. As it stands currently...both the TSX and TL fulfill my needs and is extremely competitive to its peer competitors.

biker4 · August 2005

Diesel is not any more toxic than a gas engine - as I mentioned the Honda diesel in the Euro Accord has fewer emissions than the gas version. With the addition of a particulate filter and a better catalyzer it is ready to go once low sulfur diesel arrives June 1, 2006.

The diesel is a bit of a chicken-egg problem concerning availability. Makers don't know how well they will be accepted due past issues and lack of refueling stations and stations are hesistant to add diesel as an option at the pump until the need is there. Like I said it's a matter of when not if.

biker4 · August 2005

Funny you should mention Canadian dollars. The person who posted his results on gas milage did it in Canada, Quebec to be exact. While the test was mainly to show the effects of speed and fuel grade on milage the bottom line was that in fairly regular highway driving one can achieve 40MPG - 41.8 to be exact at a steady 90kph (55mph). Milage was lower on either side of that speed. Guess why back in the early 70s the US gov't picked 55 as the national speed limit.

kyfdx · August 2005

Uh... it was a joke..

aquaticexplore · August 2005

no proble...To each his own.

My whole point was that the Euros get engine choices far beyond what we get in North America, and if some automakers other than VW (I wouldn't buy one either) is brave enought to bring their diesels here, people who test drive them who sometimes opt for them.

TSX is a great car - handling, standard equipment, relibility, value and looks. If only we had a choice with regard to the engine.

aquaticexplore · August 2005

No spelling errors this time.

no problem...To each his own.

My whole point was that the Euros get engine choices far beyond what we get in North America, and if some automakers other than VW (I wouldn't buy one either) is brave enough to bring their diesels here, people who test drive them would sometimes opt for them.

TSX is a great car - handling, standard equipment, reliability, value and looks. If only we had a choice with regard to the engine.

My neighbor is a Honda dealer. Next time I see him I will ask him about when H will bring their diesel CR-V, Accord etc to N.A. I think that there is an opportunity here. Mitsu should do it because right now they are virtually invisible in the car market. Bring diesel versions of their cars and maybe someone will buy one.

Diesel is widely available in Canada. Also recall, you fill up every 600 miles not every 200-300, so you should have plenty of time to find a station.

delmar1 · August 2005

No problem....I also understand and agreeable with choices. Choices are good.

I do wonder though...what would it do to the overall cost structure for the model. That is...if they produce too many variations and choices...production become less efficient and costly with retooling and with alternate production lines....and they will be unable to efficiently absorb fixed costs. Therefore the gas powered car lineup would have to absorb more costs and cover for the shortfalls of a slow diesel lineup...which would raise the price of the gas powered cars.

Help me understand please on the benefits of diesel versus hybrids? From what I understand....the Honda Insight has 65hp and gets something like 60mpg. Why would it be beneficial to go diesel? Because of power? If so...what would the power be in a Honda Accord Hybrid?

robr2 · August 2005

Some issues with offering diesels now.

Markets - the biggest market in the country (California) doesn't allow the sale of diesel cars as they currently do not meet the emissions standards. Those standards also affect the Northeast where imports outsell domestics. It doesn't make any sense to offer the vehicles where they won't sell the most.

Low Sulphur Diesel - expect diesel costs to go up 25-30% when the low sulphur requirements are implemented. It requires more refining and processing to achieve the lower levels - that doesn't come for free. Also, it takes 25% more oil to make a gallon of diesel than a gallon of gasoline. It also emits 17% more greenhouse gasses than gasoline.

Diesel is part of the solution - not the entire solution.

aquaticexplore · August 2005

Undoubtedly one reason why they don't bringthem over is that it simplifies the assembly to just do one or 2 variants of a model. That said, they already are making CRV and Accord diesels, so they would just run the line longer. Perhaps they have a sourcing problem in getting enough diesels fast enough.

You're correct about the little Honda insight. It already gets great mileage, so a diesel would not improve things as much as say, for a CRV. However the smart car you refer to has a 1-L diesel (3 cylinger I believe) engine. It gets awesome mileage. The Accord hybrid in NA has been a big disappointment in terms of mileage though people report great power.

I just loved the torque that is available in these turbo diesels. It is much different from the tsx. Now there was some speculation that Honda might put a turbo on this 2.4L gas engine and slap it in the coming Acura CR-V clone (RDX?). That would be an amazing engine IMO. However, they seem not to like turbos for some reason.

aquaticexplore · August 2005

agree with most of the post. But, its CO2 emissions are lower, and for saps like us in Canada who signed on the the Kyoto treaty, this is significant.

I think the US states like Cal ought to reassess the situation. I think mileage is a bigger issue confronting America than particulates and NOx. They should reverse themselves and allow clean Euro style diesels.

BP already runs cleaned up gas. Is their diesel also clean or are they waiting till next year. They seem like a good corp to me for implementing changes before they were mandated to. Their gas costs the same as everyone else's.

See you boys later. 10 days in the S. Pacific to cool my (diesel-loving) jets.

lainey · August 2005

Here's some excerpts from an interesting article that came out today:

"Asians oversell horsepower-

Toyota, Honda inflated claims of engine muscle; new tests force automakers to come clean with buyers...After years of touting ever higher horsepower numbers to win new customers, Toyota Motor Corp., Honda Motor Co. and possibly other automakers are now backtracking on some of those claims...Honda is reducing horsepower ratings across its Acura brand. The flagship RL sedan will lose 10 horsepower, to 290 from 300. The popular MDX SUV will fall from a rating of 265 to 253..."

Full article here: http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0508/17/A01-283759.htm

It looks like they inflated everything by about 10hp. So this means the '04-'05 models are really around 190 hp, and this horsepower "increase" of +10ish is going to put it at 200 hp for the '06.

johnny420 · August 2005

This is interesting. I had read about the new standards, but was under the impression it was more of a redefintion or standardization of the criteria for determining engine output.

I had always heard that Honda actually underrated their engines slightly, and this had been borne out in dyno testing down by drivers on other enthusiast sites. The new V-6 Accord is one model that comes to mind.

I think the big problem is comparing BHP versus measuring power at the rear wheels, as is done on dynos. Something is invariably lost in the translation.

Johnny

frisconick · August 2005

Diesal exhaust yield particulates that are very damaging to the lungs, and the 2006 standards do not address this problem. Diesal exhaust is nasty stuff.

drewba · August 2005

Getting the sulfur out of diesel fuel is a crucial milestone toward reducing air pollution nationwide, said John Millett, an Environmental Protection Agency spokesman on clean-air issues.

"It's analogous to taking the lead out of gasoline as we did in the late 1970s," Millett said. "By taking lead out of gas, it allowed catalytic converters in cars and light trucks, which was a huge public-health benefit because emissions were dramatically reduced.

"With diesel, we're able to do much the same thing by reducing sulfur. That allows catalytic reduction of pollutants and particulate controls to be added to the engine."

lmacmil · August 2005

200hp may look better than 190hp in the brochures but there's no noticeable difference in performance from a 10 hp difference. And since any difference is due to the test procedure rather than an actual engine change, there will be no performance difference at all!

lmacmil · August 2005

How can they claim to have "inflated" horsepower when they were rating it under a bona-fde SAE standard at the time? The more recent procedure was adopted 1 year ago (August 2004). The ratings for the 2004 models were probably established in the 2nd quarter of 2004. Re-testing is fairly expensive. Ford has said they aren't going to retest to the new standard unless they bring out a new engine or new vehicle. Much ado about nothing, in my opinion.

kyfdx · August 2005

The new '06 TSX will have some engine revisions.... It will have 15 more horsepower than the old model.... no matter what measurement scale you use..

frisconick · August 2005

I worked for the Californa EPA and worked on diesal regulations for years, and battled the oil industry hot and heavy. We finally won after a 11 year battle. The California EPA is much more agressive than the Federal EPA that has to cow-tow to a hostile congress. The reason that the battles against the California EPA are so bitter is that many smaller states that can't afford an EPA follow what California does. It's a domino effect, so the fights here are hot and heavy.

biker4 · August 2005

Low Sulphur Diesel - expect diesel costs to go up 25-30% when the low sulphur requirements are implemented. It requires more refining and processing to achieve the lower levels - that doesn't come for free. Also, it takes 25% more oil to make a gallon of diesel than a gallon of gasoline. It also emits 17% more greenhouse gasses than gasoline.

The oil companies have already stated that it will be 3-5 cents/gal more expensive for the low sulfur diesel - not 25-30%.
The emissions issue is meaningless - the diesels will meet the same exact rules as gas cars.

frisconick · August 2005

The emissions issue is meaningless - the diesels will meet the same exact rules as gas cars.

This is not true, the particulates of diesal emissions are of such a size that they get stuck in you lungs that you cannot expell, car emissions are much smaller that are easily dislodged with a cough. I highly recommend that you hold your breath when a diesal bus drives by you.

biker4 · August 2005

The EuroAccord iCTDi is no smoke belching bus. Look at the EPA and CARB emissions rules - they are the same for gas and diesel engines. Particulate filters make the diesel particulate problem a non-issue. Like the old Volvo commercial used to say - depending on your location the air coming out of the tail pipe might be CLEANER than the air going into the air box. :shades:

frisconick · August 2005

Yes, the Japanese and Europeans have really done a good job with diesal exhaust, and yes there has been progress on emissions recently. :shades:

ckennedy · August 2005

Hi all, I am a lexus owner and have found the lexus board very helpful that's why i seek some help. My sister's 2004 TSX had the two front black louvers stolen from her car this past weekend. Are these in demand or were they trying to get to something else? How much do these run or is there a reliable OEM that i could purchase them from?

Thanks,
Chris

ckennedy · August 2005

Hi all i have had great feedback on the lexus board with my car however i need help with my sister has a 2004 nsx and this past weekend they stole the 2 front black wind louvers on the front of the car. Are these in demand are were they after something else. How much does they run and is there a reliable OEM that i could get them from?

Thanks,
Chris

krypt0n1te83 · August 2005

Just wondering if there's an estimate for the MSRP of 06 TSX. I talked to a dealer a week ago and she can get me 05 TSX for $2000 under MSRP. But new 06 TSX will have no discount for sure. So even if MSRP stays the same, it's at least $2000 difference. If MSRP was to raise, it would be a $2000+the raise difference. Is this worth the extra stuff new in the 06?

frisconick · August 2005

Wait until the 06 comes out and see all the extra goodies it comes with, and it's new price, and if you don't like it, buy a used 05 with very low miles on it.

biker4 · August 2005

You should be able to get a discount on the 06 from the start. If the dealer is willing to go $2K below sticker now there should be some discount later also. When Lexus floods the market with its new IS250, the TSX might be one of the cars that takes a hit - watch for discounts on the TSX after October.

frisconick · August 2005

I don't see a new moldel TSX being cheaper, plus the IS will be much more expensive than a TSX.

eusnll · August 2005

I was told by the dealer that the '06 MSRP will increase in the range of 500-700 but they don't have much clues about what goodies will be added , modified.

In any case when '06 starts coming out all the '05s will be sold ASAP. It is already 2000 below MSRP. The only problem will be color choices .

My 0.02

biker4 · August 2005

I didn't say the TSX will be cheaper. I said there's a good chance they'll be discounted a bit more than normal due to folks gravitating to the newest thing on the block - the new IS. It depends on what you call a lot more expensive - the base IS250 MT might be with $1000 of the TSX.

307web · August 2005

The dealer is spewing garbage. If they don't know what features the car is going to have yet, they don't know that the price will be $500-$700 either.
It's just sales pressue to buy now under the pretense of trying to save you money so you can avoid the huge price increase looming just around the corner.

nyer · August 2005

I purchased a 2005 AT TSX 3 months ago and have driven roughly 2000 miles so far. I know I have time, but I have to ask what the real timeframe is regarding oil changes? Acura says to service every 10k miles and the dealer told me to have it done every 5k. Then I am reading about certain break in additives in the oil that should be left in the car for the 1st 10k miles. Does anyone know what is the most prudent thing to do to ensure longevity of the car? Thanks for the help.

fredvh · August 2005

Personally I would change the oil and filter in a new car every 3-5 thousand miles. I have two older cars but I still change every 3000 miles. It is cheap insurance. If your car does highway driving exclusively then you could extend a couple thousand to 5000. Even if the initial oil has additional additives in it, 3000 would be sufficient for its break-in. This is my opinion.
I am not a mechanic nor am I an expert on oil or the Acura TSX. The TSX is on my short list for my next new car as is the Camry. What kind of mpg are you getting? I hear that the ride of the TSX is a bit rough. Do you find it that way? Did you compare the ride of the TSX to any other cars?

Acura TSX

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