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Acura TSX
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Comments
Overly touchy throttle tip-in and throttle lag are frequent complaints. I crave a return to throttle linkage, or at least a substantial improvement to DBW.
If you prefer to have electronic nannies determine the best course of action in your driving, fine. I like to make my own choices.
I don't see the TSX listed in your profile. Do you even own one?
You assumed I do not own a TSX as you indicated: "I don't see the TSX listed in your profile. Do you even own one?" .
Thanks for your interest in my profile. My wife and I own a 2005 TSX in Carbon Grey/Quartz to compliment my 2005 TL and 2004 BMW 7series. Profiles on this site only allow for two cars to be listed. Also...even if I did not own one, I could have driven a drive by wire system...which btw is included in the TL and other car.
You also stated: If you prefer to have electronic nannies determine the best course of action in your driving, fine. I like to make my own choices.
Each driver have their own opinions based upon past experiences and driving ability. Some may not like or able to adapt to certain engineering advancement some do. Otherwise we would all be driving Model Ts.
Thanks for sharing your opinion and experiences. Big question what do you enjoy about the TSX and what were the deciding factor in your purchase decision?
For the prospective buyer who may be scratching their heads wondering what the heck are we talking about regarding 'drive by wire throttle'...here is a primer which I robbed from the Acura site:
In most cars, a mechanical cable connects the accelerator pedal to the throttle valve. The TSX uses the all-electronic Drive-by-Wire Throttle System™, first developed for Honda Formula 1 racing engines. It senses accelerator pedal motion, and then a computer weighs this data against vehicle speed and engine data in real time and opens the throttle accordingly. The pedal feel is more direct. Acceleration is smooth from rest and at normal cruising speeds. Because control is more precise, throttle response is quick and sporty. Exhaust emissions are reduced, and performance, as well as fuel economy are improved. Drive-by-wire facilitates communication between the engine and the ABS and Vehicle Stability Assist (VSA®), enabling a more coordinated reaction by these systems when they are engaged. In the TSX with automatic transmission, throttle position and shifting are coordinated electronically, so the shift "feel" is more refined
Again...I am not saying that everyone has to like it...and that is ok...but the intent is to develop and make available an advanced feature.
The other disadvantage is only a problem for tuners. Remapping the ECU with a user-programmable ECU (such as Hondata's K-Pro) cannot be done without installing a cable, thereby disabling the VSC, speedometer, tach, etc.). Other Honda performance cars such as the RSX and Civic don't have this problem, which is why there are so few engine mods available for the TSX - even after almost 3 years.
Of course, if you have a slushbox TSX and/or aren't interested in modding, DBW is all good.
The throttle response is just one of a number of reasons why I lost my enthusiasm for owning/driving my TSX. Not a big reason, but simply another check in the "don't keep" box. I'm much happier to be back driving a RWD, LSD, throttle cable equipped performance car. YMMV.
Oh...perhaps I have a thought of the feeling of sensitive 'tip in'. The gas pedal is hung differently in a the TSX and TLs. It is 'hinged' on the floor versus 'hung' from the top (the reason why it is hinged on the floor is that it is supposed to be a more 'natural' position and less fatigue on the foot.. So if not accustomed and heavy footed, it could cause excessive foot travel and acceleration.
No, at least in my experience, the TSX throttle was absolutely too senstitive at tip-in.
Agreed.
I would likely choose the IS250 over the TSX if I was shopping in that segment today, but I certainly wouldn't trade in a TSX to pick one up.
My question to delmar was a legitimate one. Many people put forth strong opinions about cars they've never driven. Happens all the time on these boards.
I've had my TSX for about 18 months now, and love driving it more all the time. I love its sharp handling, lively engine and the overall sense of quality I get from it. Oh, yeah, and it SPECTACULAR six speed gearbox. It really is a lot of fun to drive, but Fedlawman raises some good points.
As a consequence, and in my quest for the "perfect" drivers car in the sedan class, I've begun shopping for the new E90 (330 or 325i). Whether or not I actually end up with one hasn't been decided, but who knows. They ain't cheap or cheap to own, but for sheer driving dynamics in a sedan, I'm not sure BMW's can be beat.
The deciding factor in purchasing the TSX was the fact that my previous car, a 2000 Accord, was putting me to sleep. I wanted more performance and the TSX strikes a very nice balance between that and utility.
Apologies if my earlier response came off as acerbic. :P
You indicated "I wanted more performance and the TSX strikes a very nice balance between that and utility"... That is the exact reason why my wife and I have the TSX. It is our 'kid hauler' car....where I can throw my kid and her friend in the back seat and all is well...with ample storage with the 60/40 folddown rear seats for those HomeDepot runs....with the correct exterior dimensions (we don't do suv or minivans...only sedans)...and ample performance.
Good to understand your thoughts on the 'tip in'. My wife was having difficulties with the bottom hinged pedal initially when she was wearing heels...and thought that may have been the cause of what was observed. But I totally understand...everyone has their preferences.
If you are looking for a sedan and looking at the 330...consider the Acura RL. Get a $50k car for $43k....about the price you will be paying for a 330.
It seems most Bimmer drivers are willing to trade some reliability for performance, but I'm not sure I could do it, especially with a $40,000 car. They are sweet, though.
It would take a heck of a lot to get me out of the TSX. It's a great car. I just wish Honda would start producing RWD cars (no AWD for me please). They are so close right now to running straight up with BMW. I'll probably just end up doing some light modding to the TSX to take it to the next level (A-Spec suspension, CAI, Hondata, better rubber, etc.), then hope Honda comes up with the goods.
Johnny
Now, if Honda was to start making RWD TSX's (and TL's), then I'd take a substantial boost in HP and torque in a NY second. I think when that happens, Honda will finally bridge that final gap between them and marques like BMW, at least with regards to performance.
BTW, as it stands now, the TSX has plenty of engine for spirited driving. Its sweet 6 speed gearbox allows the driver to be exactly where he needs to be in the powerband to extract the most performance out of the engine. And the K24 is a fine motor, the best NA four-banger I've driven by a long shot. Adding a few bolt-on mods makes it even better.
Johnny :shades:
Would have been interesting if Honda has put its accord 6 in as an option. Wild torque steer. I would stay with the t24, though. On balance it offers great power and economy. 6th gear should be higher though. I can't understand that decision.
The ABS light should come on if the modular fails.
The TSX is a nicely balanced, sharp handling car right now. Adding 200 lbs of weight over the front wheels would only serve to spoil its superb out-of-the-box handling, not to mention adding torque-steer issues.
If anything, the car could use an even tighter suspension, a la A-Spec, and better tires, to further improve its already good cornering ability.
Any increases in power should come from tweaking the present K24 engine, IMO.
Johnny :shades:
P.S. I saw an '06 Accord sedan on the highway today. New LED taillights are great looking! Ugly is no longer an excuse to avoid the Accord.
I'm certainly no expert, but, from what I've read, the K24's potential has barely been tapped. Not much more than bolt-on mods are available for it at this time, for whatever reason (demand?). I think as time marches on we'll see much more performance from this engine, both via aftermarket and from Honda internally.
Just my opinion
I seem to recall you arguing in the not too distant past that making the mods you suggested still wouldn't bring the Accord in line with the TSX, handling wise anyway. You know, "happy yachting" and all that.
Granted, the Accord V6 will now be available with a 6 MT, but it'll still be an Accord. I guess I'm not sure why Honda would do this, if what you suggest is true. Sounds like they'd just be shooting themselves in the foot. I think they're too smart for that.
BTW, I could make the same mods to my TSX that you suggest for the Accord, and still be that much further ahead in the game. And I plan to :P
Sounds like you're enjoying the E30. It sure is purdy. Been posting your experiences with it anywhere here at Edmunds?
Regarding my earlier post, I did say, "it may not turn-in quite like a TSX, but it will come very close."
Here's a quote from a Feb 13, 2005 message I posted (message #214) on the now closed "Accord vs. TSX" thread. I think this sums it up my opinion pretty well...
"The TSX will always outperform the Accord when both cars are modified to the same degree, ie: a TSX with H&R coilovers will outhandle an Accord with H&R coilovers. A TSX with Comptech rear sway bar will outhandle an Accord with a Comptech rear sway bar, etc. Face it, invest enough money and the Accord can be modified into a very respectable canyon carver, but it will always be longer, wider, heavier, and slower steering than the TSX - it will also cost more than a stock TSX that's ready to carve right from the factory."
My current opinion? An Accord V-6 with aftermarket suspension can be made to handle virtually as well as a stock TSX, but it will still be a little heavier in the nose and slower steering, so it won't be quite as tossable feeling. However, to someone that places high value on HP and TQ, it's a viable alternative.
As for my E30, I tracked it 3 times this summer (and again next month) and dyno tested it too. I've posted some messages in the "BMW 3-Series Sedans - 2005 and earlier" and "Entry-Level Luxury Performance Sedans" forums. You can also see some photos here...
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2064126
I've wanted to attend the last two Northwest Acura meets, but couldn't due to scheduling conflicts. I hope to make it to one soon.
Regards,
Still loyal to the TSX Brian
You like red, dontcha?
I 'd be interested to hear your impressions of its driving dynamics as compared to the TSX, though this probably isn't the correct board for that.
As for the TSX, I see where you're coming from. Believe me, BMW's always have and always will appeal to me. To me the E90 is obscenely over-priced, but I want one anyway. It's getting terrific write-ups in the rags. I saw your suggestion elsewhere about an ED purchase of a stripped 325i. That sounds pretty good, though I'd probably get the 330i SP. That would be one exciting purchasing experience. Haven't been back to Deutschland since my Army days.
The only thing that concerns me is reliability. I just finished reading 2500+ posts on the "problems and solutions" 3 series board, and it's not particularly pretty. But knowing that sites like these probably don't realistically represent the "real world" regarding problems, I'm somewhat willing to look past it. Bimmer drivers are always passionate about their cars.
Anyway, it's the TSX for now, with mods to the engine and suspension on the way.
Will Honda ever go RWD?
Take care.
Drove TSX as a loaner with only 3,000 miles for couple weeks. I like the car.
I pushed the car little bit for its handling by taking sharp corners. I made a quick lane changes at 50mph, TSX fishtailed. Tried it again. Same. deal.
I pulled the same move on by friend's '05 TL and did not fishtail (he was annoyed but I complimented his car).
Never drove the NSX but my favorite handling Honda product is the 5th generation Prelude.
Compare to V6 EX Accord (similarly price Honda product - better torque), seating height is similar but in a narrower car. So during the fishtailing (poor grammar) it made feel like I'm was in a bubbly car.
Similarly sized competitors, I drove the BMW 325 and Audi A4. Both more $$ but they handled better.
Is it because TSX sits too high (higher clearance)? Am I expecting too much?
Thanks for asking Johnny, I'll try to keep this in the context of a TSX discussion...
First of all, I really think the TSX is closer in spirit to my '88 325is (E30) than the current BMW 3-series. In my opinion, the TSX has a light on its feet, tossable feeling that is somewhat lost on the more solid and heavy-feeling modern BMW's.
The TSX is obviously more refined than my E30. The ride is smoother and quieter, the materials are of much higher quality, and the driving experience is much more refined and relaxed in the TSX. The stereo is much better, and of course, I need not mention the TSX's safety features which are missing on my E30 (airbags, traction control, etc.). Unfortunately, the price you pay for all that comfort and safety is excess weight and a comparatively muted driving experience.
By modern standards, my E30 is a relatively noisy, harsh-riding, primitive car. The interior plastics are cheap, the doors are tinny, and the cockpit is much smaller (the E30 is about the same size as an RSX). The front seats are extremely comfortable, adjustable, and supportive, but the steering wheel doesn't tilt or telescope. I love the way the E30 looks, and I think it has timeless lines that will look good for decades to come. With a nice coat of wax, it definitely turns more heads and starts more conversations than my TSX ever did.
But where my E30 really shines (and the main reason why I got one) is in its powertrain and driving dynamics. The balance is absolutely neutral - settle the car and enter a sweeper, and you can play with the rear end all the way through. Your right foot is like the conductor of an orchestra, and each section responds individually to every subtle direction you give it. You can almost feel each tire contact patch through the steering wheel and the seat of your pants, yet the car never gets upset over rough roads - even over mid-corner bumps and off-camber elevation changes. The I-6 engine has good power (comparable to the TSX) and the song it sings is just as sweet (but in a different way) - and the very Italian sounding exhaust note (probably due in part to 18 years of internal erosion, ha ha) reminds me of my much missed Alfa Romeo. I love the sound of it at WOT above 4000 RPM. The car is perfectly suited for driving school duty for an intermediate driver like me because steering, throttle and brake inputs are so direct. You get immediate feedback (positive and negative) yet it's forgiving enough to keep you out of trouble.
It's simply a blast to drive and a joy to own.
I should clarify: the TSX is a great handling SEDAN. I think it's a bit unfair to compare it to a relatively light coupe like the 'Lude. That car will almost always win the handling wars due physics alone.
BMW is still the standard for sharp-handling sedans, and I'm not sure how the 325i you drove was equipped, but most Bimmers come right off the lot with higher performance tires than the TSX. BMW's also have the advantage of RWD.
I've owned Accords, too, and I feel like the TSX kills the Accord in handling, with both being in stock form of course. However, this has been argued ad nauseum here and in other forums, and some believe the Accord is equal to the TSX in handling. YMMV.
Not sure what you mean by "bubbly car."
Better tires and one $115 upgrade can bring the TSX to the next level. That upgrade is a thicker aftermarket anti-sway bar. It would control the fishtailing you mentioned an lessen body roll. A-Spec suspension bits ($600) would raise the bar even higher.
The TSX chassis has great potential. A couple of minor tweaks really open it up. Check some other sites for confirmation and video representation of what I claim.
:shades:
NICE! I think R&T is hiring! :P
First of all, I really think the TSX is closer in spirit to my '88 325is (E30) than the current BMW 3-series. In my opinion, the TSX has a light on its feet, tossable feeling that is somewhat lost on the more solid and heavy-feeling modern BMW's.
Pretty good tribute to the TSX, I'd say.
I love the way the E30 looks, and I think it has timeless lines that will look good for decades to come. With a nice coat of wax, it definitely turns more heads and starts more conversations than my TSX ever did.
I'm repeating myself here, but I agree 100%. The E30 has the distinct advantage of looking very unlike 90% of the cars out there today. I'm not a huge fan of the trend towards higher beltlines; I prefer the E30's look much better.
Thanks for the reply.
It is rather interesting to me also as I have the same situation - weighing the pros/cons of each vehicle since they are both around the same price.
TSX - light, nimble, longer warranty, sportier handling, clean styling inside and out, bluetooth for 2006 are some pros. Cons - premium fuel, lack of torque.
AV6 - power, torque, smoother ride, regular fuel, better exterior styling on 2006. Cons - no bluetooth (for me), little softer handling, exterior styling not as crisp as TSX.
Again, these are my viewpoints
Oh - and the Acura has the luxo-badge on it.
Certainly the Accord EX V6 with the 6MT will be appealing. It's about time Honda offered the manual tranny to its V6 drivers. If straight TQ and HP numbers are what is important to you, as it seems to be for most American drivers, then definitely go for the V6. You'll never be happy otherwise.
If tight handling, quick steering, well-appointed interior and a fun-to-drive factor are important, then go with the TSX.
Just keep in mind that the TSX is very well-balanced, and that quality is hard to quantify. After 21 months, I'm happier than ever that I traded in my Accord for my TSX. I look forward to driving it every chance I get. I never did with my EX V6. It was a very good car, it was just very boring.
Life's too short to drive boring cars. Define your parameters.
Hope this helps. :shades:
I did see that discussion which is why I asked my question here. Nothing has been posted there since May '05 and the '06 Accord EX 4dr w/ the 6spd MT was announced in early september '05, so it didn't atract any attention over there. Also, I'd be more interested in the Acura drivers perspective on the Accord than the Accord drivers perspective on the Acura.
It seems to me that the only comparison from a TSX perspective is the 6cyl 6spd MT,