I spotted an (insert obscure car name here) classic car today!

Mr_Shiftright · July 2009

Sounds like one of those conspiracy theories that makes no sense. M-B was a lot stronger company than Borgward, Lloyd and Hansa. It would be like a 60s General Motors trying to bankrupt Studebaker. I mean, why bother?

andre1969 · July 2009

Here's a really nicely preserved 1976 Grand Prix. Too bad they didn't pick a nicer one to preserve though...I imagine this one was about as cheap as it got. I don't think I've ever seen that a car with that dashboard (same as my '76 Grand LeMans) not equipped with a/c...looks odd with the vent covers.

I'm not sure, but I think the 350-2bbl might have actually been a credit option on the Grand Prix in '76!

Mr_Shiftright · July 2009

Price is totally batso crazy. $7000 would be a home run with bases loaded in the last game of the series.

andre1969 · July 2009

Yeah, that's about what I figured. Cars like that always amaze me though...why someone would pay good money for a car, only to horde it away all those years and not use it. And it seems a fair number of 70's and 80's cars like that turn up. Maybe it's because they were so awful to drive, their owners just gave up and put them in storage! :P

For some reason, this poor rat of a '77 LeMans caught my eye. Maybe it's because I drove my '76 to work today. Anyway, I'm guessing this one might be good for about $500-600...if it runs? The one upside to this one is that it somehow managed to dodge a bullet on the assembly line, getting fitted with a Chevy 305 rather than a Pontiac 301.

ghulet · July 2009

.....two sort of oddballs: a Cadillac XLR, burgandy, very nice (this may not be odd, but in my neighborhood, you don't see them); great looking car, though I have to wonder how much is being discounted off MSRP ($86-91k!!!!) right now.

The other was a white Peugeot 505 STX 2.8i (the V6) in really nice condition. I have to wonder who (and why, and with whose cooperation) has kept this thing on the road, I don't imagine parts or labor are easy to come by.

ghulet · July 2009

....I'll never understand; I remember as a kid, one of my aunt's friends had a Caprice coupe (77) with power windows, locks, seat, tilt wheel....and factory NO air. Huh? My partner's Jeep Wrangler also has no a/c, though that's a bit more understandable because of the type of vehicle, but hard to overlook. I have bad memories of going to July weddings in a suit, sweating my [non-permissible content removed] off. Ugh.

Mr_Shiftright · July 2009

You should be able to buy a 2007-2008 low miles XLR for around $45,000 right now-- so about half of MSRP or less. A 2006 that's miled up, under $30,000.

texases · July 2009

So much for the 'rebirth of Cadillac'...what do they have? XLR is DOA, same with STS and Escalade. The SRX Mk II doesn't appear too interesting. What's that leave? The CTS, a good car, but not enough for the whole division!

fintail · July 2009

I read somewhere that the undoing of Borgward had some fishy dealings too, and the company wouldn't have had to go under if it held out a little while longer. I don't know if it had to do with P100 vs fintail though, I haven't heard that before. The fintail was very well received from the day it hit the streets, and the odder ahd heavier looking Borgward doesn't seem to have been a danger, at least in my eyes.

jrosasmc · July 2009

I came across this article from TTAC's website and I figured you would want to take a look at it:

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/review-1975-mercedes-benz-280s/

I do see W116s around the DC area from time to time but they are almost always 300SDs. How come we almost never see 280S sedans anymore?

Mr_Shiftright · July 2009

I've been rooting for Cadillac but I have to confess I went public a few years back with pretty stiff skepticism about the XLR. It has indeed become not the "competition" for the Mercedes SL or the Lexus SC430 but rather an "obscure" car that surprises us when we see one.

kyfdx · July 2009

Hey.. they are trying, at least..

RWD... Now, a wagon.. Moving the SRX from a RWD based sedan to the Equinox platform is a move in the wrong direction, I think..

bumpy · July 2009

You mean the GM that decided its money was better spent trying to smear Ralph Nader than, say, offer free rear swaybar upgrades to first-gen Corvair buyers?

fintail · July 2009

Nice article.

Those cars were the last carb MBs to hit this continent IIRC - that might be part of their downfall. When carbs get finicky, I think some people give up on other things, especially when parts and maintenance are so dear. They also can rust pretty handily, the seating can get a little odd if exposed to harsh climates - collapsed cushions and wrinkled upholstery, and they are guzzlers. I think the 280S was also sold in smaller numbers than the 450 series cars, and the late diesels.

Europe would have the 280S in W126 form through 1984 or 85.

bob550k · July 2009

Weird.

I saw a 1954 Kaiser Darrin Convertible on Saturday in Irvine. The doors actually slide into pockets in the front fenders, no hinges!

Bizarre car.

andre1969 · July 2009

Maybe it's a more common thing up north? Still, I imagine that the Chicago area can get just as hot in the summer months as it does down here in the DC area! I remember a friend of mine back in college, who moved from Washington state, who had a 1990 or so Civic sedan without air. We thought it was weird, but I guess the climate up there was cool enough that it wasn't as essential.

The newest car I can think of without air, that anybody in my family has had, was my Mom's 1966 Catalina convertible that she bought new. It was gone before my time, so I don't remember it, but have seen pictures. I remember asking her if it had air conditioning and she was like "Why would it have air conditioning? It was a CONVERTIBLE!!" FWIW, my '67 has it, but it doesn't work.

Those older cars from the 60's and earlier, including the 60's designs that held over into the 70's, seemed to have better fresh air ventilation than their replacements, so I don't think a/c was nearly as necessary. 70's cars also seem sealed tighter. I know with my '76 LeMans, '85 Silverado (dates back to 1973) and '79 New Yorkers are all pretty tight, to where, if the windows are all rolled up, you have to really slam the door to make sure it shuts right. Just don't do that with the window down though, or something will break!

Having rear windows that roll down definitely helps, too. My '76 LeMans can get pretty stifling in hot weather, with its stationary opera windows. My two NYers though, being 4-door, seem to air out much better.

A '77 Caprice coupe, though, especially as well-equipped as your neighbors was otherwise, seems a real oddity in not having a/c! And I bet with that big wraparound rear window, it was perfect for baking the back seat passengers!

imidazol97 · July 2009

>have better fresh air ventilation than their replacements,

Indeed they did. You bring up a very good point. I recall my 67 Mustang had vents on the underdash C-pillar that could be opened with a little pull knob that were great, as long as the car was moving. Air from outside blew on your legs and up over the seat. Even in urban stoplight traffic enough air came through that I didn't need AC.

But things changed and on my 70 Mustang I had AC and the vents were gone.

michaellno · July 2009

When I lived in California, many of the cars I owned didn't have A/C ... of course, I was only a few miles from the ocean, so a day where the temp got to 90 was considered hot.

When I moved to Denver, the car I had at the time ('91 Nissan Sentra SE) didn't have A/C. I traded that in for a '93 Accord DX, also w/o air. Never again!

Mr_Shiftright · July 2009

Not a great car, the 1975 280S. It had a very bad reputation and proved highly troublesome. Balky carbs, anemic AC, poor gas mileage, middling acceleration. Not a car I'd recommend to anyone, and certainly not anything Detroit was afraid of.

Get yourself either a 60s/early 70s Benz for the styling, minimal emissions controls, and rugged dependability, or an 80s Benz and get all the improvements of better technology top to bottom.

You don't see the 75 280S because they are all in the wrecking yard, to be blunt about it.

fintail · July 2009

I don't disagree with that. Build quality was excellent, but driveability was not the highest, and with the horrible DOT bumpers they look pretty silly too. If one wants a W116, seek a very early small bumper car, or that elusive genuinely nice Euro model.

5 grand will still buy a decent W108 or even an acceptable fintail. These aren't expensive toys. Or for a driver, a well kept W126 or W124 can't be beat - the same high build quality, but they can drive in modern traffic every day.

jrosasmc · July 2009

Speaking of older Benz series, for a driver, I would also go for a well-kept R107, but it would likely have to be any 560SL from 1986-89. I always loved the stock looks of the last models - and I especially hate it when I see an example 'pimped' out with tacky-looking wheels, fender trim and what-not.

Fintail, you'd know this better than me - by 1988 and '89, the final two years of the 560, were all the bugs worked out of the car? (Those concerning emissions systems, bad timing chains, etc.) I will see an occasional example pop up on Ebay with 150k+ miles on it and it will still look amazing. I'd imagine the a/c is still bad on them, though, as the R107 wasn't really designed for it.

fintail · July 2009

I think all 560s are good - I am unaware of any major mechanical differences from 1986-89. The emissions problems hit 450SLs from the mid 70s (surprise surprise) and the timing chain issues were on early 80s 380SLs - and I believe most of those have been remedied now.

Those chrome fender trim pieces are either rust concealers, or rust nests. Seeing wheels from a R129 etc on an old car just looks poserfied. The cars need to be pretty stock. Factory chrome wheels are about as much as they can take.

560SL is easily the superior R107 and I can't really say anything bad about them. HVAC will be iffy...but it's an old MB, most of them are that way.

ghulet · July 2009

.....they use a ton of gas, but you probably knew that already.

explorerx4 · July 2009

back in the 70's, the big concern was 'global cooling'. :P

explorerx4 · July 2009

my wife and i used to work for the CT motor vehicle dept.
we got letter stating we had to get our mustang emissons tested by 7/20 before we could renew the registration.
i called our insurance guy and put the coverage back on, so i could burn off the old gas and put some fresh stuff in it. still working on it.
in the mean time, my wife sent in the renewal paperwork with a check, and we got a new registration in the mail today.

kyfdx · July 2009

I didn't get my first car with air until I was age 32.. And, that didn't really count, because it was a 911 Targa.. which only puts out A/C through the two center vents.. Each of them about the size of... hmmm.. something really, really small.. :surprise:

Didn't get a car with any real A/C, until I married my wife... That was in 1993.. and was a 1990 Nissan. (her car, not mine).

Even now, I'm a windows down kind of driver..

fintail · July 2009

It still makes me laugh that my E55 gets only slightly worse mileage in town than my old 6cyl W126, and it gets decently better mileage on the highway.

A V8 R107 will be a pig, but I bet a 560 is better than the older cars.

fintail · July 2009

I don't turn on the air until it is 80 or so (warm for these parts).

MB AC won't win any awards.

toomanyfumes · July 2009

My dad bought a '76 Cutlass Supreme brand new, ordered it, and specified "no air conditioning". He had never had it in a car, figured it to be another thing to break, and wanted nothing of it. Back when you could order options one at a time, you could get some wierd combos. That car also had a AM radio with a fader and rear speakers. :confuse:

imidazol97 · July 2009

>Back when you could order options one at a time,

I ordered a Mustang. V8 but with air conditioning yet with a manual instead of automatic. Worse was no 4-speed, just a three-speed. Dealer thought it was a real poor combination. It was a fancy coupe model.

ghulet · July 2009

....I know it's far cheaper and easier to offer models with specific equipment and 'packages', but some are quite irritating (like when you must order a spoiler to get a sunroof, you can't have leather if you want a manual transmission, etc.). GM's were particularly random; my '71 Buick had power windows and seat, AM/FM, tilt but no power locks and no cruise; my '77 Chevy was the exact opposite (power locks and cruise, AM/FM 8-track, F41 suspension, air, nothing else). Kinda fun to see the combos now on eBay.

As for cars with no air, in general it doesn't bother me, since even in the cars I've had with factory air, it's worked intermittently or not at all. Now our only vehicle is no a/c, so it's always a luxury to ride in one that has it. Problem is, I think people get too used to it and use it when not necessary, so then it becomes mandatory.

Back to those W116s...I'm pretty sure the 280S was only sold here for a year or two (not after 1975); the 280SE was a whole lot better, but I've never been crazy about that body style (they haven't aged well aesthetically or physically) and their seat foam in particular tended to rot away. Now that others are so cheap (190Es, W124s and 126s), I can't see why anyone would bother.

andys120 · July 2009

I got my first air-conditioned car the same year I turned 40. Working in Manhattan I had no need to use a car for work (I commuted by rail) and owned convertible sports cars until I got a Honda hatchback.

I remember one memorable leg of a cross country tour in our Fiat 124 Spider. It was about 100 degrees out driving across Missouri. The sun was too intense to leave the top down so we had the top up, windows down and little vent windows taped open cuz they wouldn't stay open at highway speeds. :sick:

It wasn't til I started working outside sales in Boston and New England that I felt a need for air con so I got an '83 VW GTI with factory air which worked much better than the marginal system in our later Honda Prelude despite having a larger space to cool.

bhill2 · July 2009

My first air-conditioned car was a '79 Scirocco with add-on air (I think VW offered factory air but the dealer didn't have any). However, the interesting one was my '81 Rabbit diesel. It had air, but you could choose a) air conditioning or b) acceleration (such as it was) but not both. Once you got it up to speed you could turn the air on without the car slowing down, at least on the flat. Hills were another story. Also, if for any reason you needed to increase your speed, like if a light turned yellow, you had to cut the A/C until you had reached your new speed. Anyway, I got really good at turning it on and off without looking.

fintail · July 2009

Lemko-mobile

Not for the shy

Of all the things to import

Yeah right

Interesting use of resources

Of all the things to preserve...or maybe these were worn out by this mileage

Handsome little fixer-upper

Different

Another lemko-mobile, better color

I bet this drives like a dream

Unusual restoration

Maybe a good thing this wasn't born

toomanyfumes · July 2009

I don't know which is the ugliest. The "Studmino", the donk Cutlass, or the 4X4 '57 Dodge. I like that the Volvo was owned by Janis Joplin's parents. That should be worth $20 or so.

Mr_Shiftright · July 2009

Why would anyone want to restore a Volvo 164E? That is so perverse. To drive one is to never want to again. And to boot we have a fuel injection system that runs on phantom electrons and a transmission that shifts like a UPS truck and a suspension that makes Mom's sofa feel like a Ferrari.

hpmctorque · July 2009

One of the main benefits of A/C is the removal of humidity. Regardless of how good the ventilation and sealing are, if the humidity is high in hot weather, the comfort level will be low. Same goes for wind and wind noise. Good ventilation doesn't substitute for the serenity of keeping the windows closed.

In the '60 and '70s people tended to be more tolerant, in terms of comfort, and although excellent A/C systems were available on all domestic cars, many, especially in northern climates, considered A/C a luxury. Among those who considered A/C a luxury, there was a sub group who felt it was only appropriate on luxury cars and high end medium priced ones.

ghulet · July 2009

Yes, people have definitely become less tolerant of ANY discomfort....let's face it, how many of our grandparents had A/C in their cars OR their homes (my grandparents lived in Marion, IL....it was hot as hell there, I would BEG to go to my uncle's house during weeks I stayed there)? We didn't have A/C in any of our cars til the late '70s, and of course after that it was mandatory that it be utilized if over 70F, I swear.

Fintail, where DO you find these things? The other monstosities aside, I can't decide if the Datsun truck or the Fiat Brava would be a stupider (I know that's not a word, but it applies) move at almost $8k. My mom and stepdad had an '80 (non F.I., I think) Brava for about four years (half of which were spent in a shop, while they drove our super-reliable '72 Econoline)....at least ours was a four-door with a 5 speed. It was replaced with a Camry, fortunately. I think I'd take the truck, if given a choice of spending 4x as much as either vehicle is worth in this case. Really like both Lemko-mobiles, those are quite up my alley, garish colors aside, though probably wouldn't be so happy in my garage.

Mr_Shiftright · July 2009

The real reason, I think, is VENT WINDOWS. These were marvelous little devices...you could direct a blast of air on your face, you could discreetly discard various items, and they made great defrosters. I really miss 'em.

kyfdx · July 2009

In our neck of the woods, we called them "cozy wings"..

hpmctorque · July 2009

You're right. I'd almost forgotten about vent windows. This is a feature that should be reintroduced.

Mr_Shiftright · July 2009

Another nice feature of 50s cars was a large vent on the windshield cowl. You just released a lever under the dash and a hurricane of air came down on your feet. Also, vents in the front fenders did the same thing. You flipped a lever by the kick panel near your left foot. You could also buy a swamp cooler from JC Whitney and hang it under your dash, and a little 6 V fan that you plugged into the cigar lighter and suction-cupped onto the dashboard.

But if you were driving in the desert, or on a crowded city street with 90 degree humidity, you just suffered.

Most 50s and 60s cars also put out a tremendous amount of engine and transmission heat. I remember T-Birds were notorious for this.

I also recall one time sitting in traffic in my old Jaguar, on a 20 degree winter day. The engine was overheating and starting to boil, and yet, just on the other side of the firewall, my feet were blocks of ice. I often wondered why the British couldn't get that amount of heat up front, good enough to melt steel, just a few inches backward into the passenger compartment.

british_rover · July 2009

I loved the vent windows on my old Cherokee. They were great when the AC finally died in it I didn't get it fixed for years cause just the vent windows would be plenty of air.

fintail · July 2009

I don't see why these can't exist again as a soft pillar, like was used on some Lincoln Mark Vs. My fintail also has vent windows (always called "wing windows" in my family), and they are very handy for ventilation, even on a cold day. The car also has a large vent in front of the windshield, on the cowl, but it doesn't seem to let a ton of air in - not like in the various 1960s Fords my dad had when I was younger - opening the vents on those could let in a huge amount of air, especially at speed.

ghulet · July 2009

....last car we had with ventipanes was the aforementioned Econoline, also had them in mom-n-dad's '72 Chevy pickup. Great if your mom is a smoker, too. I also remember cars with vents that let in so much air, were not filtered, that you'd get things like bugs and leaves through them. Not so nice, but gives you an idea of how much airflow they had.

andys120 · July 2009

although excellent A/C systems were available on all domestic cars, many, especially in northern climates, considered A/C a luxury. Among those who considered A/C a luxury, there was a sub group who felt it was only appropriate on luxury cars and high end medium priced ones.

I agree that was a common attitude. Don't forget that city and town dwellers don't use their cars that often. That explains a lot of the reason why I never bothered getting air when I was a New Yorker but I didn't hesitate to order air con once I was doing sales routes and commuting by car.

I knew a woman from Vermont who as recently as the early 90s bought cars without air. I had no idea you could even order a '92 corolla without it. :confuse:

A lot of people might be surprised to learn that most residents of Northern New England, like myself, still do not have air conditioning in their homes. We don't even have (or need) a window unit. When it gets too hot/humid like today I just head for the basement. For the life of me I don't understand why homes in the hot, arid Southwest are built without basements, It's always cool below grade level.

Cars and trucks are a different matter being metal boxes that heat up quickly, cool down slowly and have no basements. :shades:

andys120 · July 2009

The real reason, I think, is VENT WINDOWS. These were marvelous little devices...you could direct a blast of air on your face, you could discreetly discard various items, and they made great defrosters. I really miss 'em.

Not me, I hated those things, not only did they spoil the line of the car but they weren't all that efficient at cooling the interior (or at defrosting). About the only thing my old TR-4 was better at than the Fiat 124 that followed it was top up ventilation.

TRs didn't have little vent windows, they had (what a concept) in-dash vents that resemble those on air-conditioned cars>

Those got air from a simple flap forward of the window, simple, bullet-proof and a lot more effective than a couple of puny little windows.

'Course they were the only thing on a TR-4 that worked every time.

See my previous post for a tale of how piss poor vent widows were.

hpmctorque · July 2009

All true. And going back to pre-WWII years, you could crank the windshield open, maybe 3-5 inches, on some cars, and have the air blow straight in your face.

Mr_Shiftright · July 2009

Or you could drive a Triumph, roll up the windows, button up the convertible top, turn up the heater, and STILL have the wind blow straight into your face. :P

fintail · July 2009

I saw a Grand National yesterday - not in black, but in silver.

Also saw a VW Transporter that must have been from the late 50s, and it was unrestored. It looked as alien among the modern cars today as it must have when new. Also saw a T-bucket and a late 60s Riviera.

I spotted an (insert obscure car name here) classic car today!

Comments

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles