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I spotted an (insert obscure car name here) classic car today!

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  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I've just finished appraising two Aston Martins: a DB2/4 Mark III drophead (rather rare, especially with left hand drive) and a DB6 with Vantage motor option, done in a very nice, but alas, incorrect navy-bluish color. These are not the most valuable of Astons but they ain't chump change either.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    Nice, I've always appreciated Astons. Sure some are more desirable than others, but I've generally always liked their style.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Unlike some exotics, these Astons look really good "in person". The DB6 is a handsome car.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    spotted on my lunch break. It was white, and looked like it was in great shape. Kind of a rare sight now, and even when new, these coupes (as well as the LeSabre version) just didn't seem all that popular. By that time though, it seems like the coupe in general was pretty much past its prime.

    I think they look sharp in black, with alloy wheels. But this one just had wire spoke hubcaps.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    I have the old car out today - someone else has similar ideas, as I saw a white 356 coupe. Not a common site on a chilly Monday morning, no doubt.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,852
    Now what are the odds? In our parking lot this morning was the same vintage 88 sedan. Lt Blue with wire spokes and dark tinted windows. Looks to be in great shape.

    Do you remember the LeSabre T-type coupe? There can't be many of those left.

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  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    Two doors down from our first 'starter' house, was a soft-spoken, very nice older fellow named Bob who had a very sharp late '80's-era Delta 88 coupe, that ubiquitous maroon with the aluminum wheels you'd see on Toronados of that period. It was a very nice looking car IMHO. He told me once he had owned a new '62 Olds Starfire and that he really enjoyed that.
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  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    Was out in the old car again, saw what I think was a ~70 442 convertible, top down on a mid 30s day. Also an early NSX and a copper red 70s 911. Nice to see enthusiasts taking advantage of the weather.

    Also something weird, Fairmont wagon that looked to have never been washed. Around here, that means it was covered with algae/mold, looked like it had been pulled out of a lake.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,199
    So, speaking of maple bacon donuts.... What is the best time of year to visit Portland?

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  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    Depends on the weather one prefers. I would say same as Seattle, July through September. But if you don't mind a good chance of rain, anytime is fine, as conditions are rarely severe.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,199
    Less rain is always better... Thanks!

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  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    Do you remember the LeSabre T-type coupe? There can't be many of those left.

    Yeah, that was a sharp looking car. I think the best looking FWD LeSabre was actually the 1986 model, which still had the old fashioned quad headlights, rather than composites. IMO those gave it a more rakish, aggressive look, while the composites actually toned it down a bit. Still, a good looking car, especially in black!

    My ex-wife's mother had a LeSabre sedan, either an '87 or '88 I think. It was a fairly good car, considering they didn't take very good care of it. I think it finally succumbed around 130-140,000 miles.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    IMO those gave it a more rakish, aggressive look, while the composites actually toned it down a bit. Still, a good looking car, especially in black!

    I remember those and they were pretty good looking in their day.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    edited January 2013
    I agree on the LeSabre coupes. I liked the four headlights better, and I also like the chrome-encased taillights, before they became oversized with no chrome border, too.

    I always liked how the hoods opened on those LeSabres and Electras.

    Back to those Eighty-Eights of the same era..I can remember the older couple who lived across the street from my sister and family had the most striking light-turquoise color one (a sedan, though). I don't think I ever saw another one that color.
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  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    I think I know the color you're talking about. For about a year, there was an 88 sedan of that vintage, abandoned outside of a diner in Mechanicsburg, PA, and I remember that it was a nice turquoise color that really caught my eye.

    It actually caught my eye enough that I took a picture of it, back in 2005, which was the first year I put my LeMans in the GM show at Carlisle...

    image

    We went to that diner a few more times over the year, and at one point it had moved forward to another parking spot, abutting the curb. And, as the year progressed, the asphalt underneath it got nastier and nastier from oil, coolant, and probably every other fluid that goes into a car.

    This particular example was pretty shot, but I bet it was pretty sharp looking, when it was new.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    My wife's aunt and uncle had 2 of those, his and hers.

    The door handles really dated that car, it just seemed older than any other car on the road at the time.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    edited January 2013
    Ha, funny, I remember those door handles catching my eye, too. Push button door handles on a new modern car? What? But to be fair, they are a lot more durable than the cheesy delicate lift up type.

    My grandma had a similar mid 80s Olds. She loved it - because she claimed it was easy to see out of while reversing. In 1996, her fairly immaculate low mileage car was hit by a W124 E-class that ran a stop sign - impact at passenger side wheel, total loss. She replaced it with a nearly new Taurus (at my uncle's urging) which she disliked.

    Saw 2 Porsche Targas today - an absolutely pristine chestnut brown 70s (chrome headlight rings) model, and a "well loved" looking white 80s model.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    edited January 2013
    The door handles really dated that car, it just seemed older than any other car on the road at the time.

    At the time, I thought that they kept those door handles as a nod to it being a 'luxury' type car, where all the lower models of GM's had the lift-type handles.

    Andre, the turquoise I remember that Eighty-Eight being was very vivid...but then, the car was always clean and shiny. Long story short, but I remember the old guy having a red '65 Dynamic 88 convertible when I was a kid. He was the step-grandfather of a kid in our neighborhood when I was younger (remember, a town of only 8,800 people in the '60 census). The old guy got Alzheimer's but my Mom and I saw him at a dinner at the fire hall (!) and I mentioned both his Oldsmobiles I was aware of and he sprang to life, telling me about his whole long list of Oldsmobiles. He had been a pharmacist.
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  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    Between the Park Avenue and Ninety-Eight, FWD versions ('86 and later), I liked the Ninety-Eights better. I liked the 'cathedral' taillights and the big round wheel openings, front and rear. My friend who was the Studebaker dealer in our town had a champagne-colored Ninety-Eight Regency for his wife, an '86, and it was beautiful and roomy inside. It eventually succumbed to trans failure and some other stuff, and he sold it.
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  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    edited January 2013
    I always liked the C pillar and rear window design on those early Buick and Pontiac downsized big coupes. Seems to me that the later squaring off of the rear window area didn't do the cars any favor. They both had nice looking dashes IMHO as well. Now the Olds seemed to cheap out on the dash, but maybe that is because I'm not a fan of horizontal ribbon speedometers.
  • ab348ab348 Member Posts: 19,031
    It's a shame the transmissions in those full-size FWD Olds and Buicks were so fragile in the first few years. I remember that when they were introduced, they sold really well and you saw a lot of them around. A fellow I worked with bought an '86 Olds 88 new and was really proud of it. But like most, the trans crapped out in short order and after a few go-rounds of getting it fixed he quickly unloaded the car. Same held true generally and word quickly got around that they had chronically bad transmissions, which really hurt their reputation. Too bad, as I found them attractive cars, especially the coupes.

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  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    It's a shame the transmissions in those full-size FWD Olds and Buicks were so fragile in the first few years.

    Funny you bring that up. I remember a friend of mine's mom's boyfriend who was a doctor had one of those early fwd Olds sedans that he drove often between Chicago and Indy. I remember him telling me he had 3 transmissions replaced before the first set of tires wore out. IIRC he was driving like 60k/yr. I'd guess it had to be back in '85 or '86.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    Originally, the FWD 98, Electra, and DeVille/Fleetwood were supposed to debut as 1984 models, but they were held back a bit because that transverse 4-speed FWD transmission wasn't ready yet. They ended up launching at some point in 1984, as early '85 models. But, given the transmission issues, perhaps they should have been held back a bit longer?

    Supposedly, by 1988 the transmission was much improved.

    Kinda interesting how all of the domestics seemed to have teething problems with their 4-speed OD automatics. Ford's first, which came out in 1980, was supposedly a weak spot for years. GM's 4-speed for the big cars came out in 1981, and was troublesome at first, but I think they worked the bugs out quicker than Ford did.

    GM's transverse 4-speed was troublesome too, and I believe Ford's first, which went in the 1986 Taurus/Sable, also had issues. The Corvette had to be pushed back enough that there was no 1983 model, because its 4-speed automatic wasn't ready yet. And that 4-speed 4L60E that they've been using in trucks has been spotty for as long as it's been in production...although supposedly the older 700R4 version wasn't too bad.

    And, Chrysler's "UltraDrive" from c1988 goes without mentioning. I don't know that they ever truly worked the kinks out of it. I think they simply began designing it to upshift long before the engines would hit their peak torque. When Chrysler started putting 4-speed automatics in their trucks, they were troublesome at first, as well.

    I wonder if the Japanese had the same issues when they started migrating to 4-speed automatics?

    Interestingly, these days, it seems like the move to 5- and 6-speed automatics has been relatively drama-free, with the exception of, perhaps, the early Honda 5-speeds mated to the V-6.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,852
    You mentioned Ford's early 4 speed. That is one you do hear the least about. The AOD received revised internals sometime in the late 80s, but overall is a really good transmission. Many, many failures of AODs are not the fault of the transmission, but rather a 25 cent grommet that fails causing the TV pressure to go too low and destroy the transmission.

    I had this happen on my 89 MGM and it wouldn't stay in 4th gear above 65. I just drove it as a 3 speed for a good while.

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  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Happened to me too! :mad:
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    nobody does weird like the Japanese---they are very imaginative about things like this.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    edited January 2013
    Nineteen eighty five was the the first model year for the FWD Park Avenue and Ninety-Eight. I bought a '85 98 Brougham in '88. Nice, roomy, comfortable car, with relatively good performance and reliability for that period.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    I bought my '85 98 Brougham with 31,500, and it was already on its second transmission. The original had been repaired or changed under warranty by the first owner. The second transmission failed at 88,000, and the third at 153,---. Since the car also had other needs by then I managed to carefully nurse it to the junk yard. It cost me a traffic ticket, though, because a traffic light turned yellow at an intersection. I didn't want to stop because of the badly slipping transmission, but the light turned red as I approached the intersection, and the camara caught me. The money I got from the junk yard paid for the fine, give or take a beer or two.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    Saw 2 more old 911s today, both 70s era I would guess - a yellow one on black Fuchs style wheels, seemed to be sitting too high, and a silver one on polished Fuchs wheels.
  • ab348ab348 Member Posts: 19,031
    Around 1998 or '99 I worked for a time with a fellow who was a bit of a gearhead who had one of the early Olds 88 FWD coupes. I think it was an '87. He still had the original transmission and attributed the longevity of it to the fact that he installed an aftermarket transmission cooler shortly after buying it new.

    This is a fellow who had a Northstar-equipped Cadillac around that same time whose starter failed when he went to leave work one Friday. He left the car in the open-air parking garage for the night, bought a replacement starter and all the gaskets you'd need to replace it (in the Northstar it was buried in the valley between the cylinder banks, under the intake) and returned on the weekend with his tools and replaced the thing on the spot.

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  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    Not two minutes ago, from my upstairs home-office window, I spotted a white '86-'88 white Buick Park Avenue...earlier style of that body with the earlier-style trim and taillights, but looked bone-stock and took off quickly from the stop sign down the street. Funny since we were currently discussing these cars.

    And people say GM's don't last. ;)
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  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,852
    I know of someone who put over 250K on an 88 LeSabre. The car was certainly rough around the edges and leaked just about everything but it kept going on original engine/trans.

    He gave it to a family member known for destroying cars and he managed to get two years out of it before something fatal happened.

    I am the first one to knock the 3800/4sp when comparing to modern drivetrains (in terms of refinement/power etc) but properly maintained they are certainly bulletproof. I'd put them right up there with Ford's older "lopo" 5.0s and 4.6 modular motors.

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  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    edited January 2013
    I am the first one to knock the 3800/4sp when comparing to modern drivetrains (in terms of refinement/power etc) but properly maintained they are certainly bulletproof. I'd put them right up there with Ford's older "lopo" 5.0s and 4.6 modular motors.

    I agree. Nothing wrong with the durability of the late 3800, but like you I just don't like it. I know some chime the 3800's torque delivery, but I never found the 3800 Series III in my wife's '07 Grand Prix particularly powerful. Sure it was quick to about 40, but after that if always seemed sluggish to me. The 3.5 powered Taurus she has now feels far more responsive and her gas mileage has gone up by 2-3 mpg overall in mixed driving (despite having over 50 more hp and weighing 700+lbs more). Plus I really disliked how crude the 3800 sounded to my ears. Just not my cup of tea.

    But yeah, if you avoid the 3800s that had intake issues they will last longer than the cars they're in.

    Ford's 4.6 seems to be able to last a long time too. My dad put 230k on a '92 Crown Vic with relative ease. Of course it was burning oil and would smoke. That seems to be a problem with high mileage 2v 4.6s. But like the 3800, the 4.6 was a great engine in the 90's that were out classed in the '00's.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    I am the first one to knock the 3800/4sp when comparing to modern drivetrains (in terms of refinement/power etc) but properly maintained they are certainly bulletproof. I'd put them right up there with Ford's older "lopo" 5.0s and 4.6 modular motors.

    I think towards the end, that combination was getting outdated, so if you wanted the latest and greatest, there were much better choices out there.

    However, for used cars, often priorities are vastly different. So if you want something cheap to buy (thanks to depreciation) and fairly reliable (as long as you can avoid the intake gasket issues that Dieselone mentioned) and just want something that's "good enough", I think they make decent cars.

    If something happened to my Park Ave, I don't think I'd actively seek out another though. Not that it's been a bad car, but I just want to experience something different the next time around. Back when my Intrepid got totaled, the first potential replacement I found was another Intrepid. It was a nicer model though, the ES with the more reliable/cheaper-to-fix-when-it-does-break 3.2, and leather, alloys, and a sunroof. But, I figured that after ten years with one Intrepid, it was time to get something else. And, if something happens to the Park Ave, I'm going to try and keep the same attitude.

    One good thing about the 3800 is that, in the bigger cars at least, usually there's enough sound insulation to drown out any engine coarseness or undesireable sounds.
  • ab348ab348 Member Posts: 19,031
    I bought an '09 Lacrosse CXL new when GM dealers up here were having a fire sale post-bankruptcy because it seemed like a screamin' deal and I needed a new car at the time. I wasn't totally in love with it even at the time of purchase but it looked good and certainly had all the creature comforts. I had nothing but grief with the 3800/4T65 combo though, mostly transmission-related. Combined with an inept dealer and it was a lethal combination. The trans was out of the thing at least 3 times in a bit over 2 years of ownership, and the engine never impressed me much either. It wasn't that it was rough but it never seemed to deliver the torque those engines were supposed to have. Maybe it was due to the transmission being flawed, I don't know. Anyway, after a little more than 2 years I had enough and traded it. Too bad.

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  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,852
    I think towards the end, that combination was getting outdated, so if you wanted the latest and greatest, there were much better choices out there.

    Exactly, but I was flamed a few times on here for saying it!

    What would you replace the Park AVe with? There isn't much out there for those who want a large cushy sedan. My LaCrosse that my wife now drives is a pretty good balance of "old Buick" and modern sedan.

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  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,852
    Ford's 4.6 seems to be able to last a long time too. My dad put 230k on a '92 Crown Vic with relative ease. Of course it was burning oil and would smoke. That seems to be a problem with high mileage 2v 4.6s.

    The 91-95ish ones will smoke a little after 150K or so. Its the valve seals. That got much better with the later models.

    The 4.6 is darn near indestuctible. They had a few issues over the years (plastic intake, timing chain tensioners) but I've seen many with 300K+ on them.

    I rode in a Lincoln TC limo with 450K on the clock. I'd love to know if it had the original engine.

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  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    The 91-95ish ones will smoke a little after 150K or so. Its the valve seals. That got much better with the later models.

    That's what my buddy's '95 Grand Marquis GS was doing towards the end. I don't know when the smoking started, but it had 175,000 miles on it when he traded it on his '04 Crown Vic LX.

    That '04 however, was still running fine at 230,000 or so, when he traded for a used '09 Grand Marquis LS Ultimate which had, I think, either 51 or 54K miles on it. Oh, and now that I think of it, the '04 did have an issue with the plastic intake. I forget what the mileage was when it happened, though.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    What would you replace the Park AVe with? There isn't much out there for those who want a large cushy sedan.

    Well, if I go brand-new, what I really want is a Dodge Charger. But, what I need is a sensible, 4-cyl midsize. I have a feeling though, that in this case want will trump need. :shades:

    If I go slightly-used, maybe a 2011+ Charger or 300, or one of the final few years of Town Car, Crown Vic, or Grand Marquis. Town Car would be my first choice, because of my hang-up on sunroofs.

    I think I'd also consider a Lucerne. Okay, so that's not *that* much different from my Park Ave, but at least it's an update. I've been in a few, so I know that the fit and finish is a lot better, and the interiors aren't near as plasticky.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,852
    Oh, and now that I think of it, the '04 did have an issue with the plastic intake. I forget what the mileage was when it happened, though.

    That problem was supposed to be only for 96-02 models. Ford changed the coolant crossover to aluminum sometime in 01. Naturally with higher miles I guess anything is possible.

    I like your idea of an late model Town Car. There are deals to be had for sure. I don't like how on the 11's they no longer had rear air-suspension but that could be a blessing in disguise in terms of reliabilty.

    Nothing wrong with a Lucerne either, but in all honesty yes it is very similar to your Park Ave.

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  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    Nothing wrong with a Lucerne either, but in all honesty yes it is very similar to your Park Ave.

    Unfortunately with the Lucerne you pretty much have to find a Northstar powered sample to avoid having a heavy underpowered car. Why GM didn't use the 3.6/6speed combo in them is beyond my comprehension.

    A 3.8 or 3.9 powered Lucerne would be substantially slower than Andre's supercharged Park Ave. From what I've read a v8 Lucerne will offer about the same performance as a Park Ave Ultra, granted with an extra helping of 32v v8 refinement.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,852
    Why GM didn't use the 3.6/6speed combo in them is beyond my comprehension.

    I said that way back when too. It made no sense to me at all. The previous generation LaCrosse had it available at some point. Knowing GM they probably had to put in the 3800 to keep a union plant running or something equally stupid.

    It would probably be hard to find a Northstar Lucerne, I don't believe many were made. It would be much easier (any probably not that more costly) to just get a DTS.

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  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    A 3.8 or 3.9 powered Lucerne would be substantially slower than Andre's supercharged Park Ave. From what I've read a v8 Lucerne will offer about the same performance as a Park Ave Ultra, granted with an extra helping of 32v v8 refinement.

    Yeah, the engine choices are what makes me think twice about the Lucerne. The 3.8 is just overmatched in this car. I think the 3.9 has about 30 more hp and 25-30 ft-lb more torque, but don't know if that's enough to make much difference. And then, you have to get a Northstar just to get performance similar to my supercharged Park Ave. But, it still takes premium, and will most likely get worse economy.

    I'm also a bit leery of the Northstar because of repair costs and such, but it may be the older ones I'm thinking of. Didn't they improve them in later years? Also, I've heard the Northstar that the Lucerne uses is a little less powerful, but a bit more durable, than the Cadillac version.

    One car I'd really like to have is one of those long-wheelbase Town Cars they offered for a few years. IIRC, it was a 6-inch stretch in wheelbase, all of it in the B-pillar area. It made the back seat in these cars HUGE! It almost wouldn't make sense, because chances are I'm going to be DRIVING the car and not riding in the back seat. But, I still think it would be kinda neat!
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    Unscientifically, it seems like I saw as many V8 Lucernes around as V6's...you could always tell by their four 'portholes' instead of three.
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  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,852
    edited January 2013
    those long-wheelbase Town Cars

    I love those! Incredibly huge in the back seat. For a few years in the early 2000s they made "Cartier L" models with rear heated seats and radio/HVAC controls (switches directly stolen from the steering wheel, parts bin engineering at it's finest!) in the rear armrest.

    Here is one: Huge!

    Little known fact that Ford Fleet also made a long wheelbase Crown Vic for taxi use. They pop up on Ebay from time to time.

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  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,852
    four 'portholes'

    I could be mistaken, I just figured since many Lucernes went into fleets that there would be more V6 models available.

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  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    I just did a search on cars.com. 30 miles from my zipcode, it lists 25 Lucernes, total. 5 are Northstar, 20 are V-6.

    The newest is a 2009 Super, with 57K miles on it for $21,654. I'm not a big fan of the revised grille treatment the Super got, but I could live with it.

    At the bottom of the barrel is a pair of 2006 CXS'es with about 90,000 miles, for $9995 each.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    Little known fact that Ford Fleet also made a long wheelbase Crown Vic for taxi use. They pop up on Ebay from time to time.

    Yeah, I've seen pictures of those. IIRC, they put that added length into the rear door window, rather than doing the thicker C-pillar with the rear door extending under it.

    In the case of the Town Car, I think it was a 6" stretch that took the wheelbase to something like 123.7" and overall length to 223.4? I wonder if the Crown Vic was just a 6-inch stretch of its wheelbase, or if they took it all the way to 123.7"?
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    Well, so much for my being 'unscientific'! Four sixes to one V8 is significant, for sure.
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