I spotted an (insert obscure car name here) classic car today!

boomchek · March 2013

I think it's almost like an ES.

ateixeira · March 2013

ES is huge - they started with the Avalon this time, not the Camry.

texases · March 2013

Size wise the ES has typically been bigger inside than the GS. I tried fitting into a GS, no way, but the '96 ES was fine. And now it's bigger.

andre1969 · March 2013

I'm surprised there's that little difference in overall length and width of the old LS versus the new. I still see old ones every once in awhile, and while they do have a dignified stance about them, they tend to get lost in today's sea of minivans, crossovers, trucks, and even bloated, high-beltlined intermediates.

fintail · March 2013

Latest sightings - 70s Camaro, MB W124 500E, 80s whale tail 911, 928S, XJS cabrio

fintail · March 2013

Out this morning, saw maybe the nicest Catera left on the road - looked brand new, elderly couple in it.

boomchek · March 2013

I almost never see the late 80s to mid 90s XJS coupes or convertibles. Heck I rarely even see the ones from late 90s. I wonder where they all went?

fintail · March 2013

Junkyards, garages, backyards on blocks. Someone who works on my block has a ~90 XJS cabrio, drives it daily.

boomchek · March 2013

I still like the 97 and up XK models. The same guy that penned the modern Aston DB7 (I think) did the Jag as well. IIRC they're both based on the same platform and they both do look alike.

andre1969 · March 2013

I thought those were good looking as well. I went through a period, in my late 20's early 30's, where I figured that if I ever wanted to look rich for cheap, I'd splurge on a used one.

However, I guess the maintenance on one would probably ensure that I'd never get rich...

fintail · March 2013

Well, it will never depreciate to nothing - all cars have scrap/parts value :shades:

Sightings lately - white 80s 911 cabrio, immaculate late W124 wagon, pop up headlights Accord covered with mold/algae growth.

bhill2 · March 2013

I still like the 97 and up XK models.

So do I. My wife and I own a 2001 convertible, which is a great road car. It replaced a 1999 which gave its life to save us when someone drove his Buick into our right front at 35 mph or so. They took him away on a backboard whereas my wife and I opened our doors and got out. At the request of the salesman who sold us the '01 we provided pictures of the remains of the '99. He showed them to prospective XK buyers to give them the warm fuzzies about the safety of the vehicle. By the way, although maintenance is not cheap on these cars it isn't obnoxiously high either, and we haven't had any reliability issues.

andys120 · March 2013

I haven't seen anything interesting/old/obscure in what seems like a month or more but as I was enjoying a beer at a local brewpub what should go by but one of the nicest Volkswagen Type 2/T1s I've ever seen. This was a split window crew-cab pickup, dark brown over a chartreuse yellow and otherwise stock except for chrome wheels. The engine sounded modified as well.

boomchek · March 2013

What does it cost you annually to run it approximately? Anything major went on it? Is it mostly electrical issues?

bhill2 · March 2013

Well, you have to parcel out the mileage-related and the time-related costs. Our Jag is only driven about four thousand miles a year now. Also, we have had it serviced at the dealer (Jaguar of Marin), who is very good but undoubtedly an independent shop would be cheaper. That being said, our routine service has been about $700 for the 30K service and about $400 for the 40,000 (earlier services were free.) I would estimate that the 60K will be $1200-1400. As far as other maintenance/repairs, the front brake pads and rotors went at 25K to the tune of $700, the engine gaskets were replaced at 30K because of a leak in one of the cam gaskets and our paranoia about the other ones ($800, but it would have been half that if only the leaking gasket was replaced). A leaking heater valve was replaced not much after that, which came to about $600. Finally, the ABS module went south, and at the same time we had the brake system and the cooling system flushed and the related hoses replaced due to the fact that the car was 10 years old and the gang hose was leaking. We also had the control arm bushings replaced. The total for the cooling system, brake system (including the ABS module), and bushings was about $4000.

The bottom line is that maintenance and repairs are fairly expensive if done at a dealer (roughly 1/2 of the costs above were labor) but not exorbitant, and it is a great grand tourer.

fintail · March 2013

Out this evening, two similar oddities: an 83-85 Eldo convertible, white, top down on a sunny day. And a weird neoclassic based on a Fox Mustang convertible, kind of Zimmer style, not sure what maker it was.

fintail · March 2013

80s day - Saw a pristine 86 Sedan Deville (quad lights, CHMSL), half vinyl top with half covered rear door windows, looked like it might have appeared in 1987. Also a mean looking pre-1986 W126 LWB, black with tinted windows, older style chrome AMG wheels - a Miami Vice bad guy car. And a decent enough E12 5er, not many of those left.

tjc78 · March 2013

I still see a few of those Devilles around here and there. The W126 sounds really cool.

Only thing remotely classic I've seen in a few days was 85ish two door Eighty-eight and an 88-91 Merc Grand Marq, but I see those everyday around here.

fintail · March 2013

I seem to see a few of the smaller 89-92-ish Fleetwoods around, usually looking pretty sad. Tons of 126s still on the road here, some looking better than others.

Speaking of odd cars, in the past I have mentioned a 63 Impala that has been sitting in a driveway near my grandmother's house for at least 25-30 years. I visited yesterday, and it was gone. There's a big early 70s Buick parked alongside a house on the same street (ca. 1960 housing development with a lot of original owners still there) that has been there forever.

lemko · March 2013

I pass by a rather decent-looking white 1989-90 FWD Fleetwood every day on my way to work.

fintail · March 2013

Either they had some durability, or owners who coddled them for their first 20 years.

Speaking of the cars I mentioned, I took a quick trip to google street view, here they are - the big Buick, the Impala (70s Ford truck has also been there 25+ years and is still there), and apparently my uncle was visiting my grandmother that day, there's his LeSabre:

andre1969 · March 2013

Either they had some durability, or owners who coddled them for their first 20 years.

I think by the time the 4.5 V-8 came out, those FWD DeVilles and Fleetwoods were fairly sturdy. My grandmother's cousin neglects the hell out of hers, and it's still running strong. Looks like crap, as the interior is falling apart and the paint is peeling, and it needs tires. But mechanically it sounds great. Has a nice, strong rumble to it. It's not all that fast, but it's tolerable. Nice ride, too. IMO, it rides better than my 2000 Park Ave. But, in that typical GM fashion, it just "feels" like a bigger car than it really is.

boomchek · March 2013

Thanks for sharing. Seems like normal expenses for an older higher end vehicle, aside from that one $4k bill.

If you like the car and enjoy it it's still cheaper than leasing or financing something luxurious for $800/month just to have a warranty.

bhill2 · March 2013

Thanks for sharing. Seems like normal expenses for an older higher end vehicle, aside from that one $4k bill.

If you like the car and enjoy it it's still cheaper than leasing or financing something luxurious for $800/month just to have a warranty.

Yeah, the $4K bill was unexpected. More than half of it was the ABS module, but we also had other stuff done, mostly because the car was 10 years old by then. Your second statement hit the mark exactly. We still love to drive the car and keeping it is far cheaper than buying or leasing something that would give us close to as much pleasure.

explorerx4 · March 2013

There are probably a few for sale here

Mr_Shiftright · March 2013

I figure that if you buy a 4 or 5 year old used car for $12K--$15K and it costs you about .22--.25 cents a mile for gas, repairs and depreciation, then you're doing pretty good.

On a new car in the $30K range, I'd about .75 cents a mile after a couple years of use.

if it's a new luxury sedan like a BMW 7 series, figure $2 a mile for gas, repairs and depreciation.

A Maserati or Rolls, maybe $4 a mile.

lemko · March 2013

...really ratty white early 1960s Corvair wagon near Whittaker and Fanshawe in NE Philly. It was next to a somewhat fair-looking silver 1967 Ford Galaxie 500 2-door hardtop with a black vinyl top.

andre1969 · March 2013

On a new car in the $30K range, I'd about .75 cents a mile after a couple years of use.

As one point of reference, my 2000 Intrepid, from cradle to grave, cost about 18.7 cents per mile, plus gas, plus insurance. That's always how I quote vehicle running costs, keeping gas and insurance separate. Gasoline costs are highly variable, depending on market and local conditions, how aggressively you drive, and your local/highway ratio. And insurance is totally dependent on your age, driving record, location, and even your credit report.

My 2000 Park Ave, for reference, has been averaging about 39 cents per mile, plus gas, plus insurance. The Intrepid cost roughly $28,000 from cradle to grave, over the course of about 150,000 miles. The Park Ave has cost about $13,000 so far I'd guess, over the course of 33,000 miles.

My formula, however, takes into account purchase price, and sale/salvage price, but not depreciation, so that makes the Park Ave's average a bit high. What would the going rate for a 2000 Park Ave Ultra with 89,500 miles be, anyway? Maybe $3-4K? If I figure a current value of $4K, then my current average is 27.2 cents per mile, plus gas/ins. At $3K, it's 30.3 cents per mile. The 39 cents per mile assumed a salvage of zero.

If you were to throw gasoline in, well the Park Ave has averaged 20.5 mpg since I've bought it. It take premium, which was $4.099 as of the last fill up. So that adds about 20 cents per mile, just for the fuel. The Intrepid averaged around 22.5 mpg over its lifespan, and took 87 octane which is around $3.699 at today's prices. So its fuel portion, added in, would be around 16.4 cents per mile.

Now, to get technical, I guess it's still hard to directly compare my old Intrepid with the Park Ave, because of, of all things, inflation! I had the Intrepid from 11/6/99 to 11/18/09, when it got totaled. I've had the Park Ave since 12/12/09.

Even though inflation has been mild of late, it's still taken its toll. A dollar spent in 1999 equates to $1.38 today. Even moving up to 2009, a dollar spent then, equates to $1.07 today.

So, the $2000 down payment I made on that Intrepid really equate to $2764 today. I think the Park Ave ended up being about $8200 out the door, with tax, tags, everything. Even that comes out to $8802 in today's dollars.

Yeah, I know I'm over-analyzing here, but I have the day off, and I'm bored! :shades:

Mr_Shiftright · March 2013

I think to come up with any meaningful numbers on operating cost, you have to factor in depreciation---so anyone who buys a car new is likely to post way higher operating costs per mile than someone who bought a 5-6 year old used car.

andre1969 · March 2013

One flaw with my spreadsheets, I guess, is that they track actual cash outlays. In other words, how much the vehicle has cost me up to that point in time. Depreciation doesn't come into play until the vehicle is sold, and then subtracted out from the costs. So, in the case of my Intrepid, for example, it was about $22,389 out the door, plus about $470 in finance charges. Plus enough maintenance/repairs over its ten year life to run up the whole bill to around $30,000. But then, when it was totaled I got $2,000 for it, so effectively, $28K total, plus gas/ins.

This formula tends to be really "front-heavy" though, in that the cost per mile (or month; I calculate both) is really high early on, because the purchase price is factored in. Or, in the case of the Intrepid, the down payment and then the monthly payments. The main reason my Park Ave's cost per mile looks so bad compared to the Intrepid is because I paid cash for the Park Ave, up front. About $8200 out the door. The Intrepid was only $2000 up front, $347.66 per month for the next 60 months.

Over time, the Park Avenue's cost per mile will go down. Hopefully. :surprise:

My 2012 Ram's cost per mile (and month) is absolutely hideous right now, according to the spreadsheet. It cost $19,451, plus my uncle's POS '97 Silverado. I've had it about 6 months, but it's only been driven about 1800 miles. And, I've paid it off already. So, with interest, it's come to maybe $19600 at best. So, right now, I'm at $3266 per month! :surprise: Or, about $10.88 per mile! Worse, if you factor in the $1300 trade we got for my uncle's truck.

But, as I said, my spreadsheet makes everything front-heavy. With time, the cost per month, and mile, will go down.

tjc78 · March 2013

$347.66 per month

I thought I was the only one who remembers what my car payments were on past cars!

lemko · March 2013

The payments on my first new car - a 1987 Chevrolet Caprice Classic were $237.15 a month for 36 months. I paid it off in 15 months.

andre1969 · March 2013

I vaguely remember my Mom's '86 Monte Carlo costing something like $272 or $282 per month. I think she financed it over 48 months. That was the first car she ever financed. All of her previous cars were paid for in cash. However, when she bought her '66 Catalina convertible, she saved up half the money waiting tables, borrowed the other half from an aunt, and then paid her back.

I guess the 80's were a major turning point for the Baby Boomers...why scrimp and save up for it when you can finance it, and enjoy it NOW!!

In Mom's credit though, I think GM was offering some low APR financing at the time.

As for my old Intrepid, I don't know why that $347.66 monthly payment sticks in my mind, but it does. Heck, I can't even remember exactly what the monthly payment was supposed to be on the 2012 Ram. I know it was $358.XX, but don't remember it to the penny like I do the Intrepid.

robr2 · March 2013

My 1984 Cavalier was $139.15 for 36 months. My insurance was just about the same.

andre1969 · March 2013

My 1984 Cavalier was $139.15 for 36 months. My insurance was just about the same.

My first car was a 1980 Malibu coupe that my Mom gave me in early 1987. My stepdad made me get insurance in my own name, and I remember the bill for that first year, liability-only, was $1,361.

It's funny how, back then, that didn't seem like a whole lot of money, even though I was just a high school kid making $3.75 per hour, part time. It was my only real expense though, and back then we all whined when gasoline went up over $1/gal.

Plugging into an inflation calculator, that $1,361 is the equivalent of about $2,759 today! Incidentally, I think the insurance bill for my whole fleet these days is only around $2500 per year. Adding the Ram didn't really increase it a whole lot, but I upped my liability limits, and I think that's what did it.

bartbarter · March 2013

It's similar to the formula I use:

Total purchase price + non-mainenence repairs divided by months owned.

I figure all cars will need brakes tires etc, even shocks and front end etc if you keep it long enough so generally it averages out over cars, although class of car will matter in cost of repairs and gas used. I just keep that in mind and when looking at a replacement car will do the gas mileage thing as an aside.

It's front end loaded too. I have gotten as low as $85/mo (late 90s Metro) and $110/mo (late 90s Grand Marquis). The gas savings tires etc with the Metro probably saved an additional $85-90 or so over the Grand Marq (that was before gas went through the roof), but hey, I'd rather drive the big Merc anyway

Wait a sec - that means compared to the Merc the Metro paid for itself! :eek:

fintail · March 2013

Financing is a lot cheaper these days - dubiously low rates, and more incentives. I was looking through a newspaper from 1988 not long ago, and noticed an ad for a Chevy Celebrity *lease* - it was something around $300/month! In 1988 dollars! For a Celebrity!

I don't remember any of my exact payments, as I always paid ahead. E55 payment (with extra) 7 years ago was about the same as my current lease.

omarman · March 2013

This loaded '88 Celebrity Eurosplat wagon demo was a 4 year closed end lease, rebate to dealer, etc. I miss the Caprice. Those third gen full size cars were very good across all the GM divisions.
Photobucket

fintail · March 2013

4 year lease, so you're leasing an out of warranty car? Sounds risky. And a $262 lease on a used car with a $16K price? No deals like that today. I remember seeing 60 month leases in old papers, too. Weird.

It does amuse me that a nice big comfy smooth Caprice was cheaper than a Celebrity.

tjc78 · March 2013

Yeah, but the Celebrity is a Eurosport

andre1969 · March 2013

I wonder if that $255 lease for the Caprice was some kind of loss leader? I have a feeling that might have been the base-level model, which replaced the Impala after 1985. Maybe just a V-6, crank windows, etc?

Still, I'd take a stripper Caprice over a fully-loaded Celebrity, any day!

Oh, on the subject of nice old B-bodies, this 1977 Bonneville Landau coupe looks kinda nice. Looks like it's been sideswiped on the passenger side, and just banged back out the best they could. Nice that it has the 403. And you hardly ever see these things with sunroofs.

garv214 · March 2013

My formula, however, takes into account purchase price, and sale/salvage price, but not depreciation

Actually, if your formula takes into account the sale/salvage price then you are including depreciation in the calculation. For example, if you purchased your Park Ave for $15K and have a sale/salvage price of $5K, your implied depreciation is $10K ($15K purchase minus $5K sales/salvage price).

If you want to minimized the front end loading, you have to have a sliding salvage/sale price for the car (i.e. current market rate) which will show a more accurate depreciation cost on the car. For example, if you Park Ave is worth $8K this year, but only $7K next year, then your depreciation for that year is $1K.

tjc78 · March 2013

Yes, your way would be accurate for figuring it out year by year. That would be a helpful tool to see what years of ownership yield the lowest cost per mile. I think we could all agree that figure is most likely years 4-7 where the car may be still fairly reliable but not depreciating as fast.

uplanderguy · March 2013

That is an interesting '77 Bonneville coupe. I don't remember Pontiacs (or Chevs) having the glass sunroof at that point, but I could just not be remembering correctly, for sure. I believe the glass sunroof was called an 'astroroof' on Cadillacs.

I remember seeing a new '78 Caprice Classic Landau with the steel power sunroof, in late summer '77. This young guy who washed and detailed cars at Ron Seidle Chev-Cadillac in Clarion, PA ordered it! I remember the sticker was $9,600, astronomical at the time. He said he ordered a '77 in the spring and it came in a '78, but he was OK with that.

It was dark blue with white half vinyl top and the door and window frames painted white, as was done on the Landau model at that time.

fintail · March 2013

I never warmed up to the Celebrity, even as a kid I disliked the gauges, especially the font used for the speedometer numbers. Little details can be killer. A black Eurosport wagon is kind of sharp in a now-retro way, though. A 2 door is rare today too, I recall uplanderguy bought one new.

I knew I had seen that Bonneville before - a "Cereal Marshmallows" car, it has its own youtube video. The seller seems pretty honest, but a lot of his cars seem to have sat outside for 25 years, with the usual cosmetic decay. That car is very clean, but yeah, something up on the passenger side, and it is kind of faded overall. I like those stock hubcaps, too, although some spokes are missing. Good luck finding those!

uplanderguy · March 2013

I think you do get used to a way a certain manufacturer has instrument graphics, etc. In the '70's, I didn't like Ford's or Chrysler's speedometer numbers, and I didn't like on Chryslers how the armrests were still bolt-on instead of sculpted into the doors like GM's (at least early '70's).

When I bought my Celebrity, I bought the couple of extra gauges, and I liked the instruments as they had very thin needles and to my mind they resembled stereo receiver instruments of the day! For a Celebrity, mine was a nice, solid dark plum color, same inside, bucket seats, aluminum wheels (before they had the big ugly dust shield in the middle of them), wide Goodyear Eagle GT tires, etc. It did corner in a 'sticky' way for the time.

uplanderguy · March 2013

This reminds me of a 'why did they do that that way?' thread we can start.

1) Why did Ford have the ignition on the left in the '60's, and put the radio on the left in '69 and '70 full-size cars?
2) Why did Chevy put the heater controls on the left in '71-76 full-size cars?
3) Why did Chrysler lugnuts turn in the opposite direction of everybody else's in the sixties?
4) Why did '63 Studebaker Larks have an ignition on the left, and have a clock or tach in the center gauge position and the speedometer to the right?
5) Why did VW Sciroccos and some M-B's have one center wiper?

I'm sure we could expand this list forever! LOL

bhill2 · March 2013

1) Why did Ford have the ignition on the left in the '60's, and put the radio on the left in '69 and '70 full-size cars?

I had a '60 Falcon, and it may have been to equalize the labor. When starting the car and getting moving you had to set the choke, engage the starter, put it in gear, and release the brake. The brake was on the left, so you could start the car and release the brake with the left hand while setting the choke and put it in gear with the right. Just a guess.

andre1969 · March 2013

2) Why did Chevy put the heater controls on the left in '71-76 full-size cars?

I wonder if the rationale was simply that it would keep the kids from fiddling with the HVAC controls?

3) Why did Chrysler lugnuts turn in the opposite direction of everybody else's in the sixties?

they only had those left-hand lugs on the driver's side of the car. I think the prevailing theory of the time was that, on the left side of the car, if the lugs were tightened counter-clockwise, then they'd be less likely to loosen up while driving, because of centrifugal force. Did anybody else ever try that, or was it just Chrysler?

Mr_Shiftright · March 2013

I feel certain that the French must have done it at some point as well. :P

Actually no crazier a concept than "positive earth" on British cars.

DO electrons really care which way they flow? If they do, how did the British come to know that?

I spotted an (insert obscure car name here) classic car today!

Comments

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles