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1960's Pontiacs

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  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    but I saw a set of 4 Pontiac Rally 2's in the big bolt pattern (full-size cars) for sale at, of all places, the Mopar Nationals at Carlisle PA. The seller was asking $300 for the set, which included the trim rings and center caps. Can't remember if the chrome acorn lugs were included or not.

    They're actually pretty hard to come by in the big bolt pattern (5" spacing), but in the small bolt pattern (4.75") they're pretty common.

    Oh, as for what cars they went on, I almost forgot but at some point the Firebird/Trans Am went to 15" wheels, so I guess they could've come off one of those. I wonder if the Ventura/Nova ever went to a 15" rim, or if it stayed 14" through to the end?
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    Andre, the latest issue of "Collectible Automobile" has an article entitled "Pontiac's 1973-'77 'Colonnade' LeMans."
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    I agree, the Bonnies, Catalina's and the smaller LeMans all looked great in 65/66. Personally, I think it was GM's best lookers for those years except for the 66 Toronado. Bill Mitchell was at his peak in the mid sixties like Virgil Exner was over at Mopar 10 years prior.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    Andre, the latest issue of "Collectible Automobile" has an article entitled "Pontiac's 1973-'77 'Colonnade' LeMans."

    Yeah, funny story about that. About two weeks ago, when we had a hot spell, I made the mistake of driving my '76 LeMans to work. I had to work late that day, and didn't get out until after 6. Well, it had gotten up to around 96 degrees that day. The LeMans started, but a bit reluctantly. I had to make a run to the liquor store, and a little voice in my head told me to take the LeMans home first, and then drive something else to the liquor store. I have to pass by the house on my way to the liquor store, so it wouldn't have been out of the way.

    Well, I didn't listen to that little voice, but should have! Made it to the liquor store okay, but once I got the car loaded up, it wouldn't start back up! So I had a friend come get me and the precious cargo and take me home. Once I got home, I went through the mail, saw the Collectible Automobile. I thought it was a bit ironic to be reading an article about the '73-77 LeMans, after just having been stranded by one! :sick:

    Luckily, it did start back up two hours later, when we went back out there. So I'm guessing it was a heat-soak problem with the starter, possibly combined with the battery getting hot. That car does get pretty hot under the hood, although it's never actually overheated, or even gotten to the point that it triggers the temperature warning light.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    Personally, I think it was GM's best lookers for those years except for the 66 Toronado.

    I just saw a '66 Toronado for sale yesterday, at a car show in Macungie PA. It was white, looked rust free, had a pretty nice burgundy interior. Power windows and seat. A/C "needed a recharge", The paint needed a bit of touch-up here and there, but overall the car was presentable. Seller was asking $7200, but then said he'd take $6K. It also looked pretty good under the hood, with everything being fairly tidy for a 40+ year old car.

    I gotta admit, I was bit tempted. These would have a 425 V-8, right? I've always admired the first-gen Toronado, at least up through 1970...I didn't like that final year with the exposed headlights that were inset a bit too far.

    Oh, on the subject of Pontiacs, I drove my '67 Catalina to that show, probably around 400 miles round trip. No real issues to report, although Saturday morning, sitting in traffic for about 5 minutes, and after already having been run for about 90 miles, the temperature light came on. Oh, and this morning coming home it rained, and I had a little water come in around the top of the windshield. MPG on the first fill-up was only about 12.8 mpg, but about 1/3 of that tank had been me driving the car locally, to work, etc, with the other 2/3 being the trip up to Harrisburg. Next fillup, which was running from the H-burg area out to Macungie and back, came out to about 14.2 mpg. That was mostly highway, although we did spend some time in local car show traffic, idling around on the show field, etc. Final leg of the trip, filling up near H-burg, hopping on the highway, and then punching it a bit once the rain cleared and the road dried up, and then filling up just before gettig home, I managed 15.3 mpg. That 15.3 actually impressed me, since I got it over 80 mph on some occasions, whereas on the 14.2 mpg leg, I was driving pretty gently.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Once you get the mass of a 60s car going, mileage tends to improve a lot. It's the stop and go of moving 2 tons, along with the inefficient carburetor systems and 2 or 3 speed transmissions, that kill you. That's also true of modern cars, except that they are lighter (generally), shift more intelligently and precisely insert fuel into the engine.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    Once you get the mass of a 60s car going, mileage tends to improve a lot. It's the stop and go of moving 2 tons, along with the inefficient carburetor systems and 2 or 3 speed transmissions, that kill you.

    Kinda reminds me of an old movie called "The Big Bus" about, well, a big bus! It was a disaster spoof that came out about 4 years before such things were made fashionable by "Airplane", about the world's first non-stop nuclear powered bus trip from New York to Denver. Well at one point, the driver is testing the aerodynamics of this giant bus, by flooring it out on the highway. The bus starts shuddering and shaking, and shockwave it makes knocks over vegetable stands, blows fat ladies dresses up in the air, and shatters the windows in VW Bugs, etc. At the climax the driver is shouting "88, 89, 90! No wind resistance!! We're breaking wind at 90!"

    And similarly, my Catalina does seem happier at higher speeds. I've noticed that it has a particular aversion to speeds of around 55 mph...it just seems sluggish and held back, and an awful resonance comes from the exhaust that's headache-inducing. But get up to around 70-75 mph, and it gets quieter. It almost seems to hunker down a bit more, and hold the road better, giving the illusion of better handling, if not necessarily the reality. And at 70-75 if I step on it, it seems to take off faster than it does at say, 55-60.
  • potter660potter660 Member Posts: 11
    edited December 2011
    Through the 1950s and into the 1960s, only the high-end luxury cars offered automatic transmission as standard equipment along with power steering and power brakes including all Cadillacs along with the Buick Roadmaster/Electra 225 and Riviera, Oldsmobile 98 and Toronado at GM; along with all Lincolns since 1952 and Thunderbird beginning in 1961, and Chrysler's Imperial line and New Yorker series.

    Some exceptions to this rule were the less than top-line Buick Super and Century in the 50s and later Invictas. Buick did standardize automatics (but not power steering and brakes) on all its 1961 and 1962 big cars but reverted back to a 3-speed manual as standard on LeSabres and on Wildcats in 1964.

    Not until mid-1971 did automatic transmissions become universally standard equipment on full-sized cars. That was when GM made Turbo Hydra-matic standard on almost all its full-sized cars including the B-body Buick LeSabre and Centurion, Oldsmobile Delta 88, Pontiac Catalina, Bonneville and Grand Ville; and all big Chevrolets with V8 engines (including all Caprices and station wagons, plus all Impalas except the four-door sedan). Ford and Chrysler would follow by standardizing automatic transmissions on all full-sized cars in 1972.

    Exceptions were low-line big Chevys including the 6-cylinder Biscayne and Bel Air, which still had 3-speed manual transmissions standard for late 1971 and all of 1972 (plus a small handful of '72 Impala four-door sedans with sixes built early in the model year before the 6 was deleted from that line and all later '72 Impalas were V8-powered). The 1973 Chevrolet Bel Air four-door sedan with six-cylinder engine and three-speed column shift manual was the last stick shift big car offered by a U.S. automaker. The six and stick were dropped for 1974 and the last 74-75 Bel Airs were all V8-powered with Turbo Hydra-matic.
  • potter660potter660 Member Posts: 11
    Up until the end of the 1970 model year, all full-sized Pontiacs regardless of series and engine came standard with column shift 3-speed manual transmissions along with manual steering and brakes. For the 1971 model year, the 3-on-the-tree was still standard on all B-body Wide-Trackers though power front disc brakes were now standard across the board and power steering was standard on Grand Villes and Bonnevilles, but remained optional on Catalinas and Catalina Broughams. Turbo Hydra-matic was optional on all series with all engines though base Catalina sedans and coupes with the standard 350 2-bbl V8 could also be had with a two-speed automatic (basically a Chevrolet Powerglide as the Buick-designed Super Turbine 300 was discontinued after 1969). In April, 1971, Turbo Hydra-matic became standard on all B-body Pontiacs with the base Catalinas also gaining the 400 2-barrel engine as standard and the 350 was dropped along with the 2-speed auto offered with it. Turbo Hydra-matic also became standard on the Grand Prix at the same time with the 3- and 4-speed manual trannies offered at the begining of the year dropped. All GPs had power disc brakes standard since 1970 and power steering became standard equipment at the start of the 1971 model year.
  • potter660potter660 Member Posts: 11
    Catalina sedans and coupes came standard with cloth-and-Morrokide vinyl upholstery while convertibles and Safari wagons came with expanded Morrokide trims (optional on sedans and coupes most years). The Ventura option delivered a somewhat plusher cloth-and-Morrokide or all-Morrokide trimmings along with a deluxe steering wheel, upgraded door panels, full wheel covers and custom pedal trim plates similar to what was found in the longer-wheelbase Star Chief/Executive series (Catalinas could be had with a Decor Group option that added the deluxe steering wheel, full wheel covers, additional exterior trim and the custom pedal trim plates - the pedal trim actually came with all cars ordered with factory power brakes and Hydra-matic transmission in some years, regardless of whether the Decor Group was ordered). Don't think carpeted door panels were used in Star Chief/Executive models until about 1969 or 1970 - that was mostly reserved for Bonnevilles and Grand Prixs.

    Bonnevilles came with more luxurious cloth-and-Morrokide or all-Morrokide bench seats on sedans [with folding front center armrest] and coupes (all-Morrokide only on Safari wagons), or leather upholstery in convertibles (before 1967 and for 1968-69 when the Brougham option was ordered on the ragtop). The Bonnies also got carpeted lower door panels and wood trim on the instrument panel.

    Bonneville Brougham models came with even more luxurious cloth-and-Morrokide trims with notchback or Strato bench seats - and folding front and rear armrests, while the 68-69 Brougham convertibles had leather notchback bench seats. The Broughams also came with upgraded door panels with full-length built-in armrests that also housed the controls for the power windows (standard on Brougham beginning 1967). And all Brougham sedans and coupes had Cordova tops.

    Grand Prix (the full-sized jobs through 1968) came standard with bucket seats upholstered in expanded Morrokide and center console, along with door panels similar to the Bonneville Brougham that included power window switches on cars so equipped mounted in the front end of the armrest), wood trim on instrument panel and other trim similar to Bonnevilles. Starting in 1965, a notchback bench seat became a no-cost option along with cloth-and-Morrokide upholstery - while 66-68 bench-seat GPs used the Strato bench in both trims and seat backs similar to the same year GPs with Strato bucket seats.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    Was there a '70 Bonneville Brougham convertible? Also, I always wondered why you could get a '69 full-size Pontiac with bucket seats, but not a console. Chevy, Buick, and Olds all offered buckets and console in their full-size cars that year.

    Also, I remember '68 Grand Prix models having door panels that were just like the standard Bonneville door panels...not having the extensions in front of the armrest with the power window switches.
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  • potter660potter660 Member Posts: 11
    And there were other certain tricks to discourage new-car buyers from ordering a manual transmission by placing certain "restrictions" on stick-shift models. From 1966 to 1970, a full-sized Buick LeSabre or Wildcat ordered with the column-shift 3-speed manual was only available with manual steering and brakes, and options such as a tilt steering wheel and even air conditioning was not available with the "stick" - If you wanted power steering and brakes, or a tilt wheel in a big Buick - you had to pony up for the Super Turbine 300 or Turbo Hydra-matic 400 transmissions.

    Pontiac like many competitors also made certain engine options only available with automatic transmissions such as the non-HO 455 available in a '71-72 GTO or Firebird Formula - though base engines and many HO engines could be had with a 4-speed stick (some even with a 3-speed). In a '73 GTO, the base 400 4-bbl could be had with either a 3- or 4-speed manual with Hurst shifter along with the Turbo Hydra-matic, but the optional 455 4-V (not the Super Duty 455 listed as an option but then only made available late in year on Firebird Formula or Trans Am) was only offered with the Turbo 400.

    You had to be a really hearty shift-for-yourself fan to get a 1973 Chevrolet Monte Carlo with a 3-speed manual shift. To get a stick Monte, you had to "special order" a stripped base Monte Carlo which came only with the standard 350 2-bbl engine and bias-ply tires, plus the 3-speed. With this car, options were limited as air condtioning, power windows, or even optional engines were not offered.
    If you wanted your Monte Carlo with the Turbo Hydra-matic, the extra cost of the Turbo upgraded you to the Monte Carlo S which also added radial tires and tuned suspension similar to Pontiac's Grand Am, plus variable-ratio power steering. And with the Monte Carlo S, you could order many extras not offered with the base stick-shift car including air, power windows, a 350 or 454 4-bbl engine, and a floor console if you got the swiveling Strato bucket seats. And the Monte Carlo Landau package was offered only with the "S" that added a rear quarter vinyl roof, Landau emblems and Turbine II wheels.

    For 1974 and 1975, Chevy dropped the base Monte and simply made the 3-M transmission standard on S and Landau Monte Carlos - but only with the base 350 2-bbl and not for sale in California due to the stricter emission requirements. Though the stick was listed as standard both years, Chevrolet sources indicate that all 1974 and 1975 Monte Carlos were sold with the Turbo Hydra-matic transmission, which finally became standard in 1976.
  • potter660potter660 Member Posts: 11
    No Bonneville Brougham convertible was offered in 1970. Only the base Bonnie was offered as a ragtop and only with expanded Morrokide upholstery - no leather as in previous years, and the successor Grand Ville ragtops of 1971-75 also only came with expanded Morrokide vinyl trim - no leather. Strato buckets were an extra-cost options on '69 Catalina and Bonneville coupes and convertibles - but no console was available - presumably to direct sporty buyers to the Grand Prix or smaller Pontiacs such as LeMans, GTO and Firebird.
  • potter660potter660 Member Posts: 11
    A '66 Olds Toronado would have had the "Ultra High Compression" Super Rocket 425 cid V8 with Rochester QuadraJet four-barrel carburetor, 10.5 to 1 compression ratio, and 385 horsepower, mated to a Turbo Hydra-matic 425 transmission.
  • potter660potter660 Member Posts: 11
    One of the very few examples of a Detroit-built car emphasizing a base sticker price in its advertising was the '64 1/2 Ford Mustang, which sold for $2,368 FOB Detroit. This was of course before federal, state and local taxes were added, along with extra-cost options. Hardly any customers drove home in a new Mustang for that price unless he went to the factory in Dearborn and purchased it, and it was bare-bones six-cylinder car with no options. Even a stripped Mustang, as well equipped in base form (compared to a base Falcon or a base Tempest) wasn't much of a car. Sure it had bucket seats, carpeting, vinyl interior, full wheel covers, padded dash, and floor shifter - but the Mustang six was a pretty slow car with a 101 horsepower 170 cubic inch six, a 3-on-the-floor tranny with no synchronized first gear, no radio, unpadded sun visors, a T-handle parking brake, manual steering and brakes, and small brakes at that - covered by 13-inch wheels with four lug nuts.
  • potter660potter660 Member Posts: 11
    Also offering bucket seats with center console in big cars for 1969 were Ford in the XL and even the regular Galaxie 500 coupes and convertibles, the Mercury Marauder and X-100, Plymouth Sport Fury, Dodge Polara 500 and Monaco 500, and all three Chrysler entries including Newport coupes and convertibles, and New Yorker coupes, and standard on 300 coupes and convertibles. On the Chrysler products the bucket seats could be ordered with either a shift console or a center cushion and folding armrest to permit 6-passenger seating.

    Pontiac did still offer a 2+2 model in 1969 (and again in '70) based on the Parisienne coupe and convertible. The Strato bucket seats and console in those cars were exactly the same that was offered in the U.S. on the '69 Impala SS coupe and convertible. This car was also unusual for a Pontiac as the automatic console-shift was the horseshoe shifter common to Chevrolets and Buicks of that time.
  • potter660potter660 Member Posts: 11
    The Pontiac 2+2 offering for 1969-70, I forgot to mention was only offered in Canada - on the Parisienne series, which was basically a Pontiac body shortened to a Chevrolet chassis and even had the same engines and transmissions as their Chevy counterparts.
    The '70 2+2 outlasted Chevy's Impala SS by another year (both U.S. and Canada) as that was dropped after 1969 along with the availability of a four-speed with Hurst shifter, Strato bucket seats or a console in any Impala or Caprice coupe or convertible. Pontiac offered the Strato bucket seats as a "stand-alone" option with no console on Catalina and Bonneville coupes and convertibles only in 1969 but dropped them for '70.

    Also, Cadillac still offered bucket seats as an option in 1969 on Coupe De Ville hardtops and convertibles. Ordering the bucket seats (for approximately $200 and including a short consolette) also required the buyer to pony up another $250 or so for leather upholstery in the coupe (leather was standard on the al fresco de Ville), but these were never very popular and dropped for '70.

    No 1971-76 GM full-sized B- or C-body cars were offered with bucket seats, Strato or otherwise, or a console for that matter. There were special option cars that included 40/40 seats and consolette such as the '74 Cadillac Coupe de Ville Tailsman and the '75-76 Buick Electra Park Avenue - but nothing with a full-length shift console. The closest thing to a big GM car to still offer bucket seats and a console in this era was the '71-76 Buick Riviera (boattail 71-73 and the choppedtail 74- 76).

    Other than the 'Riv, if you wanted a GM car with bucket seats, you had to step down at least in size to the intermediate personal-luxury cars including Grand Prix, Monte Carlo, or the regular intermediates including the Chevelle, LeMans, Cutlass and Skylark. Ford and Mercury also dropped the availability of buckets and consoles in big cars after '70, though the larger Chrysler products still offered then through 1971.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    I'm guessing the Pontiac 2+2 in Canada more or less equated to the Impala SS in the States?
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    That was my understanding of the 2+2 in the Canadian market. I think, generally, a Canadian Pontiac was more like Chevy in the GM hierarchy there. I believe Canadian Pontiacs of the '60's could be had with 283's and Powerglide, when U.S. big Pontiacs couldn't.

    Have you ever seen a '67 2+2 Andre? A rare piece for sure. Not crazy about the fender louvers, but it was a 2+2 trademark. One thing I didn't like about '65 and '66 big Ponchos that weren't Grand Prix or Bonneville models, was the black crinkle-vinyl inserts on the instrument panel, no matter what color interior you got. All '67 big Pontiacs had the woodgrain panel. I could really like a '67 2+2 in a rarer color.
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  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    Have you ever seen a '67 2+2 Andre? A rare piece for sure. Not crazy about the fender louvers, but it was a 2+2 trademark.

    Right now my memory's drawing a blank, but I'm sure that I've seen one at some point, either at one of the Spring/Fall Carlisle swap meets, or one of the Hershey/Macungie car shows. At the all GM show in Carlisle though, I'm pretty sure I haven't. Usually there's only 3-4 '67 Pontiacs in that show. One of 'em is my Catalina, and the others are Bonnevilles.

    Those fender louvers don't do anything for me, either way. Probably just another place to gather debris and start rusting, though!
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    I saw online that only 1,768 '67 2+2's were built, only one more than 1964 Studebaker Hawks which were only built from August through December 1963--really small nos. for a standard-size GM product of the sixties!
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  • blh7068blh7068 Member Posts: 375
    IIRC, all Canadian Pontiacs were equipped with Chevy engines.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    IIRC, all Canadian Pontiacs were equipped with Chevy engines.

    They were, but at some point, they started phasing in "real" Pontiacs. I think it might have been 1969, when they first started offering Pontiac Bonnevilles in Canada, and they came equipped with Pontiac engines.

    And, in some cases, the Chevy engine was actually an advantage! AB348 once had a '77 LeMans with a Chevy 305. Had that been a US-built Pontiac, it would've had the sucky, troubleprone Pontiac 301!
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Would've the Canadian Bonneville been called the Parisienne? I guess the Catalina equivalent was the Laurentian.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    edited January 2012
    Would've the Canadian Bonneville been called the Parisienne? I guess the Catalina equivalent was the Laurentian.

    Well in 1969, the Canadian Pontiac lineup went something like this:

    Strato-Chief = Biscayne
    Laurentian = Bel Air
    Parisienne = Impala
    2+2 = Impala SS
    Grande Parisienne = Caprice.

    One notable difference though, is that the Strato-Chief and Laurentian came in 4-door sedan or hardtop coupe...no 2-door pillared sedan. The Bel Air and Biscayne offered a 2-door sedan, but no hardtops

    Here's a Canadian Pontiac brochure from 1969.

    For contrast, here's a 1976 Canadian Pontiac brochure. By this time, it looks like they were using the longer Pontiac wheelbase, so that business of putting Canadian Pontiacs on the shorter Chevy wheelbase was history. And, it looks like they might have been using Pontiac engines again, judging from the 455 being listed

    Also, by 1976 it looks like the Canadian Pontiac was expanding to fill the same role as an American Chevy and American Pontiac. By this time, the lineup was expanded to:

    Laurentian (probably a Bel Air equivalent)
    Catalina
    Grande Parisienne (maybe a Caprice equivalent?)
    Bonneville
    Bonneville Brougham

    I think in some years, in Canada, Pontiac was actually a bigger seller than Chevy, so that might explain the bloated lineup. In the United States, by 1976, Pontiac was struggling to move their big cars.

    For 1978, it looks like Pontiac went to a lineup of Laurentian, Catalina, Parisienne/Parisienne Brougham (1978 Canadian Pontiac brochure, courtesy of TOCMP.com)

    And, it looks like they went back to using Chevy engines (250 inline-6, 305-2bbl, 350-4bbl, no mention of a 301 or 400). The Catalina and Parisienne look equivalent to the US-spec Catalina and Bonneville, with the exception of the Chevy engines. The Laurentian looks like they used Impala door panels, but took off the woodgrain strip. And, gave it cheaper seat material than what you'd find in an Impala.

    Odd that they'd choose to market two low-level big Pontiacs in Canada by that time. I figure the Catalina would be enough, but I guess they felt there was a need for something cheaper. I wonder if Chevy of Canada was pushing something equivalent by that time, possibly still named Bel Air or Biscayne?
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I was on vacation in Canada in 1982 and recall seeing what would be the American version of a 1978 Impala badged as a Bel Air on thg C-pillar.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    I just checked the Wikipedia entry for Chevy Bel Air and they do list the Bel Air as going on through 1981 in Canada, along with the Pontiac Laurentian. They also mention a Mercury Marquis Meteor and a Ford Custom 500 being dropped after '81, as well. So, I guess the Canadian market for lower-line big cars persisted a bit longer than it did in the US.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Back in the day, Canadian Fords were called Meteors, the Canadian Mercuries were Monarchs, and the Falcon was known as a Meteor Frontenac with little red maple leafs on the hubcaps. I think even the Ford trucks were marketed as Mercuries in Canada. Dodge called its Canadian trucks Fargoes.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    edited January 2012
    The odd Canadian Pontiac that I remember seeing when I was younger is this:

    image
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    I think that Canadian Tempest is nicer looking than the Chevy Corsica! There was really no perceived need for something like that here in the US, as we had the Grand Am, and a Corsica twin badged as a Pontiac would have just been too close.

    But, it's interesting that they had that much overlap in Canada, and allowed it to go on for so long.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    I think the wheel design matches well with the car. I remember back in the day we had a Corsica rental car in that same color. I guess the Pontiac brand had widely believed cachet in Canada.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    My late parents' last new car was an '89 Corsica which reminds me of that Tempest, although the lower color was silver instead of dark gray (dark gray looks nicer I think). 2.8 V6, column-shift automatic. I tried to be excited for Dad, but he traded in an '84 Monte Carlo 305 V8 with Rally Wheels and 41K miles for it. Should have kept the Monte!
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  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    When I was younger, some senior citizen friends of the family had a Corsica 5-door....not many of those around anymore. Even then they were odd.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Those Pontiac wheels really do dress up that Corsica. My friend briefly had a Corsica that I thought was so cheaply and carelessly assembled I called it a Coarse-ica.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    I'd guess the 4cyl models could be pretty unrefined. I remember our rental was a moderately equipped 3.1, didn't seem like a bad car for what it was.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    I had a new '90 Corsica 4-cyl. 5-speed for 108K miles and 6 1/2 years. It sat out all the time, in all kind of weather, including snow, and was a good car. My parents had a 3.1 V6 Corsica and while it was faster, you could tell it was heavier over the front wheels...it steered harder and you had your feet in the brakes more to stop it, than our 4-cyl. The V6's then (and we also had a new '89 Beretta GT 2.8 V6), had a distinctive rasp. To this day I could still identify one blindfolded if it drove past me.
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  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    Someone earlier mentioned buckets and console going away in big Fords after '70. I'll have to look online, but I'm pretty certain I've seen pics of a '71 LTD convertible with buckets and console. I'll have to check the Old Car Manual Project online when I'm off work.
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  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    edited January 2012
    I drove the Corsica a few times, don't recall much but it seemed smooth and even a little plush. I always loathed the 2.8 and 3.1 exhaust note - I remember back in the day, someone in the neighborhood had a new 89 or so GP, and it sounded like a popcorn popper on steroids. An older lady my mom knew had a then-new Lumina which also sounded pretty rough. While an old guy (Pearl Harbor survivor even) my dad knew had a then new Accord wagon that seemed like it had an electric motor under the hood.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    I always found the Corsica and Baretta kind of cheap looking and feeling. I recall the bucket seats always moving around when I had them set all the way back. l know many may disagree, but I much preferred the earlier X cars as rentals. I thought, for the times, they road more comfortably and were nicer inside. I think Pontiac's undoing was when they went to all this chintzy gimmicky stuff like game console dashboards and red lights.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    I don't recall ever riding in an X-car. I knew a jerky kid in high school who had one, and another kid in college who had a really neglected one.

    I think Pontiac lost it with all the 90s body cladding.
  • blh7068blh7068 Member Posts: 375
    All that body cladding was a GM thing as I remember. Also, all the hard plastic on the interior( that only over the last 5 or 6 MY's has gotten better).
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    I don't think I've ever ridden in an X-car, but I've sat in a few. Compared to the N (Grand Am, Corsica, Beretta, etc), I think they were roomier and more comfortable. But then, I guess that would make sense, as the X-car went on to become GM's intermediate (Celebrity et al), whereas the N-car was just a slightly enlarged version of the J-car (Cavalier etc)

    Cars like the Celebrity were bigger overall than the Citation, as much as a foot longer, as I recall. But, most of that length went into the styling...longer front-end to make it look more impressive, and a longer rear, which did bump trunk space up from around 14 to 16 cubic feet. But interior-wise, I think they were close. I think the roof was a bit taller on the A-body from the B-pillar back, so perhaps there was a bit more head room in the back.

    The X-body could also be trimmed out pretty nicely inside. The Citation was really cheap in entry-level trim, but I don't think the upper trim levels were bad. And the Phoenix, Omega, and especially the Skylark could be quite luxurious in the top trim levels.

    In contrast, I don't think the Corsica, or Grand Am, ever looked that nice inside, no matter what the trim level. Just too much hard plastic, odd shapes, etc. But the Calais and Somerset Regal/N-body Skylark could be pretty nice.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    My best friend had a 1980 Chevrolet Citation that lasted from his junior year in high school, college, graduate school, and into the first year of his marriage. Not only have I ridden in this car, but drove it many times. I thought one of it's most unusual features was the vertical radio on the right side of the instrument panel. He later put an aftermarket unit in the car, but bypassed the vertical radio and mounted it in the glovebox.

    His Citation was a rather dressed-up one with nice plush seats, full wheel covers, white stripe tires, and a two-tone green and cream paint job: cream on top with green below the side trim. He crimped the cream-colored hood in an accident at some point and replaced it with a green hood that matched the lower body making the car look like it was ordered with a deliberately weird two-tone scheme.

    He managed to put 195K miles on this car over and it looked like a fugitive from a Mad Max movie by the time he got rid of it.

    By the way, will you be at the Philly Auto Show this weekend? I heard back from grbeck, but he can't make it until the second Saturday. I think fezo will be there tomorrow.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    It's funny, those really base cars don't seem to exist anymore. I don't recall any friend of the family having an X-car either, which is surprising as they were popular. I do remember my friend's mom had a Cavalier fastback that I thought was pretty cool when I was in about 2nd grade though.

    I remember when my grandmother's Olds got hit in 1996, the body shop that did the estimate had a dusty Citation sitting in it - the owner said the car had been sitting there since 1982 and had no miles on it. Just an oddity then, stuck in my mind.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    One of my relatives bought a new Citation in 1980 or '81, to replace her '73-74 Nova coupe. I'll never forget her freaking out one day, when one of my young cousins, who I guess was about 4 or 5 at the time, managed to drop the back seat, crawl into the hatch area, and pull the seat closed behind him. She hadn't seen him do it, so to her, one second she had put him in the car, and the next, he had disappeared!

    I don't know how long she had the car for, or any of its history, though. She currently drives her elderly mother's old 2002 or so Impala.

    The neighbors behind us bought a new Citation in 1981, a V-6 I think. However, they only had it a few months, until it was replaced by a 1981 Monte Carlo.

    Their previous car was a 1969 or 1970 Sedan DeVille, so I'm sure going to that tiny Citation was a shock! Also, my neighbor worked on cars and liked to do a lot of stuff himself, but when he saw how complex this Citation was, I think he knew it would be nothing but trouble. This guy used to put 350's in Vegas and race them, among other things. Also helped me paint my two Darts, put a leaf spring on the DeSoto, and the door off of a '79 LeMans onto my buddy's '78 Malibu when he snagged a guardrail. I had tried to put the door on myself, but had trouble getting it to align correctly.

    Every once in awhile, I'll see a Citation show up at a classic car show. They're old enough now that they're allowed in. Actually, at the fall show in Hershey PA, there's always a really nice white 1980 or so Skylark coupe that always shows up.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    I remember last year I saw a Citation with "antique" plates on it - it was pretty immaculate looking, in a kind of yucky period light yellow.

    It must have really been an eye-opener in the malaise days to go from old land yachts to very downsized cars. Some people were probably never comfortable again...I am pretty sure that's one reason my mother held onto her old T-Bird until the mid 80s.

    Oh that reminds me, I once had a co-worker who had a Pontiac Phoenix as his first car. He claimed there were hills in Seattle it couldn't climb - he'd have to back down and turn around. I'd guess that old 4 wasn't the best unit.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    I think he might be hyping it a bit. The Iron Duke was rather a pig, but we had a Citation as a rental years ago while visiting Seattle and went into the mountains and then up to Vancouver and never experienced that. It would complain and lose some speed, but it always made it. They were actually kind of roomy for a small car with a decent highway ride, but had awfully wide turning circles.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    Of course, the Phoenix was about 15 years old at the time. Still, maybe an exaggeration.

    I had a friend with a Bronco II in high school that didn't like some of the steep hills in town, it would get down to a crawl. It was far from new then, too.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,685
    :sick: I remember renting a Pontiac 4 cyl in San Francisco only 8 years ago, and it struggled to get up the steeper hills...
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    edited January 2012
    About the Citation--in '85 I had put a deposit on a new burgundy Monte Carlo SS to replace my '82 Monte V6. I was moving back to the Cleveland area, where my '81 Monte V8 had been stolen and never recovered, and my '82 had been broken into. I was 27 and decided to not get a third Monte and got my deposit back (they didn't want to give it back but I argued they could've sold the SS the next day). A couple months later, I ordered a Celebrity Eurosport, but I looked long and hard at the Citation X-11 they had in stock. I knew they were the same car underneath, and in an X-11 you could get a stick (although the car in stock didn't have one). I bailed on the idea thinking I'd take a resale bath, back when I was a bachelor and buying a new car every three years or so. I liked the '85 Citation dash too (no more vertical radio), but in a few years every one you saw had a big hump in the cover over the radio and HVAC controls.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
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