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They're actually pretty hard to come by in the big bolt pattern (5" spacing), but in the small bolt pattern (4.75") they're pretty common.
Oh, as for what cars they went on, I almost forgot but at some point the Firebird/Trans Am went to 15" wheels, so I guess they could've come off one of those. I wonder if the Ventura/Nova ever went to a 15" rim, or if it stayed 14" through to the end?
Yeah, funny story about that. About two weeks ago, when we had a hot spell, I made the mistake of driving my '76 LeMans to work. I had to work late that day, and didn't get out until after 6. Well, it had gotten up to around 96 degrees that day. The LeMans started, but a bit reluctantly. I had to make a run to the liquor store, and a little voice in my head told me to take the LeMans home first, and then drive something else to the liquor store. I have to pass by the house on my way to the liquor store, so it wouldn't have been out of the way.
Well, I didn't listen to that little voice, but should have! Made it to the liquor store okay, but once I got the car loaded up, it wouldn't start back up! So I had a friend come get me and the precious cargo and take me home. Once I got home, I went through the mail, saw the Collectible Automobile. I thought it was a bit ironic to be reading an article about the '73-77 LeMans, after just having been stranded by one! :sick:
Luckily, it did start back up two hours later, when we went back out there. So I'm guessing it was a heat-soak problem with the starter, possibly combined with the battery getting hot. That car does get pretty hot under the hood, although it's never actually overheated, or even gotten to the point that it triggers the temperature warning light.
I just saw a '66 Toronado for sale yesterday, at a car show in Macungie PA. It was white, looked rust free, had a pretty nice burgundy interior. Power windows and seat. A/C "needed a recharge", The paint needed a bit of touch-up here and there, but overall the car was presentable. Seller was asking $7200, but then said he'd take $6K. It also looked pretty good under the hood, with everything being fairly tidy for a 40+ year old car.
I gotta admit, I was bit tempted. These would have a 425 V-8, right? I've always admired the first-gen Toronado, at least up through 1970...I didn't like that final year with the exposed headlights that were inset a bit too far.
Oh, on the subject of Pontiacs, I drove my '67 Catalina to that show, probably around 400 miles round trip. No real issues to report, although Saturday morning, sitting in traffic for about 5 minutes, and after already having been run for about 90 miles, the temperature light came on. Oh, and this morning coming home it rained, and I had a little water come in around the top of the windshield. MPG on the first fill-up was only about 12.8 mpg, but about 1/3 of that tank had been me driving the car locally, to work, etc, with the other 2/3 being the trip up to Harrisburg. Next fillup, which was running from the H-burg area out to Macungie and back, came out to about 14.2 mpg. That was mostly highway, although we did spend some time in local car show traffic, idling around on the show field, etc. Final leg of the trip, filling up near H-burg, hopping on the highway, and then punching it a bit once the rain cleared and the road dried up, and then filling up just before gettig home, I managed 15.3 mpg. That 15.3 actually impressed me, since I got it over 80 mph on some occasions, whereas on the 14.2 mpg leg, I was driving pretty gently.
Kinda reminds me of an old movie called "The Big Bus" about, well, a big bus! It was a disaster spoof that came out about 4 years before such things were made fashionable by "Airplane", about the world's first non-stop nuclear powered bus trip from New York to Denver. Well at one point, the driver is testing the aerodynamics of this giant bus, by flooring it out on the highway. The bus starts shuddering and shaking, and shockwave it makes knocks over vegetable stands, blows fat ladies dresses up in the air, and shatters the windows in VW Bugs, etc. At the climax the driver is shouting "88, 89, 90! No wind resistance!! We're breaking wind at 90!"
And similarly, my Catalina does seem happier at higher speeds. I've noticed that it has a particular aversion to speeds of around 55 mph...it just seems sluggish and held back, and an awful resonance comes from the exhaust that's headache-inducing. But get up to around 70-75 mph, and it gets quieter. It almost seems to hunker down a bit more, and hold the road better, giving the illusion of better handling, if not necessarily the reality. And at 70-75 if I step on it, it seems to take off faster than it does at say, 55-60.
Some exceptions to this rule were the less than top-line Buick Super and Century in the 50s and later Invictas. Buick did standardize automatics (but not power steering and brakes) on all its 1961 and 1962 big cars but reverted back to a 3-speed manual as standard on LeSabres and on Wildcats in 1964.
Not until mid-1971 did automatic transmissions become universally standard equipment on full-sized cars. That was when GM made Turbo Hydra-matic standard on almost all its full-sized cars including the B-body Buick LeSabre and Centurion, Oldsmobile Delta 88, Pontiac Catalina, Bonneville and Grand Ville; and all big Chevrolets with V8 engines (including all Caprices and station wagons, plus all Impalas except the four-door sedan). Ford and Chrysler would follow by standardizing automatic transmissions on all full-sized cars in 1972.
Exceptions were low-line big Chevys including the 6-cylinder Biscayne and Bel Air, which still had 3-speed manual transmissions standard for late 1971 and all of 1972 (plus a small handful of '72 Impala four-door sedans with sixes built early in the model year before the 6 was deleted from that line and all later '72 Impalas were V8-powered). The 1973 Chevrolet Bel Air four-door sedan with six-cylinder engine and three-speed column shift manual was the last stick shift big car offered by a U.S. automaker. The six and stick were dropped for 1974 and the last 74-75 Bel Airs were all V8-powered with Turbo Hydra-matic.
Bonnevilles came with more luxurious cloth-and-Morrokide or all-Morrokide bench seats on sedans [with folding front center armrest] and coupes (all-Morrokide only on Safari wagons), or leather upholstery in convertibles (before 1967 and for 1968-69 when the Brougham option was ordered on the ragtop). The Bonnies also got carpeted lower door panels and wood trim on the instrument panel.
Bonneville Brougham models came with even more luxurious cloth-and-Morrokide trims with notchback or Strato bench seats - and folding front and rear armrests, while the 68-69 Brougham convertibles had leather notchback bench seats. The Broughams also came with upgraded door panels with full-length built-in armrests that also housed the controls for the power windows (standard on Brougham beginning 1967). And all Brougham sedans and coupes had Cordova tops.
Grand Prix (the full-sized jobs through 1968) came standard with bucket seats upholstered in expanded Morrokide and center console, along with door panels similar to the Bonneville Brougham that included power window switches on cars so equipped mounted in the front end of the armrest), wood trim on instrument panel and other trim similar to Bonnevilles. Starting in 1965, a notchback bench seat became a no-cost option along with cloth-and-Morrokide upholstery - while 66-68 bench-seat GPs used the Strato bench in both trims and seat backs similar to the same year GPs with Strato bucket seats.
Also, I remember '68 Grand Prix models having door panels that were just like the standard Bonneville door panels...not having the extensions in front of the armrest with the power window switches.
Pontiac like many competitors also made certain engine options only available with automatic transmissions such as the non-HO 455 available in a '71-72 GTO or Firebird Formula - though base engines and many HO engines could be had with a 4-speed stick (some even with a 3-speed). In a '73 GTO, the base 400 4-bbl could be had with either a 3- or 4-speed manual with Hurst shifter along with the Turbo Hydra-matic, but the optional 455 4-V (not the Super Duty 455 listed as an option but then only made available late in year on Firebird Formula or Trans Am) was only offered with the Turbo 400.
You had to be a really hearty shift-for-yourself fan to get a 1973 Chevrolet Monte Carlo with a 3-speed manual shift. To get a stick Monte, you had to "special order" a stripped base Monte Carlo which came only with the standard 350 2-bbl engine and bias-ply tires, plus the 3-speed. With this car, options were limited as air condtioning, power windows, or even optional engines were not offered.
If you wanted your Monte Carlo with the Turbo Hydra-matic, the extra cost of the Turbo upgraded you to the Monte Carlo S which also added radial tires and tuned suspension similar to Pontiac's Grand Am, plus variable-ratio power steering. And with the Monte Carlo S, you could order many extras not offered with the base stick-shift car including air, power windows, a 350 or 454 4-bbl engine, and a floor console if you got the swiveling Strato bucket seats. And the Monte Carlo Landau package was offered only with the "S" that added a rear quarter vinyl roof, Landau emblems and Turbine II wheels.
For 1974 and 1975, Chevy dropped the base Monte and simply made the 3-M transmission standard on S and Landau Monte Carlos - but only with the base 350 2-bbl and not for sale in California due to the stricter emission requirements. Though the stick was listed as standard both years, Chevrolet sources indicate that all 1974 and 1975 Monte Carlos were sold with the Turbo Hydra-matic transmission, which finally became standard in 1976.
Pontiac did still offer a 2+2 model in 1969 (and again in '70) based on the Parisienne coupe and convertible. The Strato bucket seats and console in those cars were exactly the same that was offered in the U.S. on the '69 Impala SS coupe and convertible. This car was also unusual for a Pontiac as the automatic console-shift was the horseshoe shifter common to Chevrolets and Buicks of that time.
The '70 2+2 outlasted Chevy's Impala SS by another year (both U.S. and Canada) as that was dropped after 1969 along with the availability of a four-speed with Hurst shifter, Strato bucket seats or a console in any Impala or Caprice coupe or convertible. Pontiac offered the Strato bucket seats as a "stand-alone" option with no console on Catalina and Bonneville coupes and convertibles only in 1969 but dropped them for '70.
Also, Cadillac still offered bucket seats as an option in 1969 on Coupe De Ville hardtops and convertibles. Ordering the bucket seats (for approximately $200 and including a short consolette) also required the buyer to pony up another $250 or so for leather upholstery in the coupe (leather was standard on the al fresco de Ville), but these were never very popular and dropped for '70.
No 1971-76 GM full-sized B- or C-body cars were offered with bucket seats, Strato or otherwise, or a console for that matter. There were special option cars that included 40/40 seats and consolette such as the '74 Cadillac Coupe de Ville Tailsman and the '75-76 Buick Electra Park Avenue - but nothing with a full-length shift console. The closest thing to a big GM car to still offer bucket seats and a console in this era was the '71-76 Buick Riviera (boattail 71-73 and the choppedtail 74- 76).
Other than the 'Riv, if you wanted a GM car with bucket seats, you had to step down at least in size to the intermediate personal-luxury cars including Grand Prix, Monte Carlo, or the regular intermediates including the Chevelle, LeMans, Cutlass and Skylark. Ford and Mercury also dropped the availability of buckets and consoles in big cars after '70, though the larger Chrysler products still offered then through 1971.
Have you ever seen a '67 2+2 Andre? A rare piece for sure. Not crazy about the fender louvers, but it was a 2+2 trademark. One thing I didn't like about '65 and '66 big Ponchos that weren't Grand Prix or Bonneville models, was the black crinkle-vinyl inserts on the instrument panel, no matter what color interior you got. All '67 big Pontiacs had the woodgrain panel. I could really like a '67 2+2 in a rarer color.
Right now my memory's drawing a blank, but I'm sure that I've seen one at some point, either at one of the Spring/Fall Carlisle swap meets, or one of the Hershey/Macungie car shows. At the all GM show in Carlisle though, I'm pretty sure I haven't. Usually there's only 3-4 '67 Pontiacs in that show. One of 'em is my Catalina, and the others are Bonnevilles.
Those fender louvers don't do anything for me, either way. Probably just another place to gather debris and start rusting, though!
They were, but at some point, they started phasing in "real" Pontiacs. I think it might have been 1969, when they first started offering Pontiac Bonnevilles in Canada, and they came equipped with Pontiac engines.
And, in some cases, the Chevy engine was actually an advantage! AB348 once had a '77 LeMans with a Chevy 305. Had that been a US-built Pontiac, it would've had the sucky, troubleprone Pontiac 301!
Well in 1969, the Canadian Pontiac lineup went something like this:
Strato-Chief = Biscayne
Laurentian = Bel Air
Parisienne = Impala
2+2 = Impala SS
Grande Parisienne = Caprice.
One notable difference though, is that the Strato-Chief and Laurentian came in 4-door sedan or hardtop coupe...no 2-door pillared sedan. The Bel Air and Biscayne offered a 2-door sedan, but no hardtops
Here's a Canadian Pontiac brochure from 1969.
For contrast, here's a 1976 Canadian Pontiac brochure. By this time, it looks like they were using the longer Pontiac wheelbase, so that business of putting Canadian Pontiacs on the shorter Chevy wheelbase was history. And, it looks like they might have been using Pontiac engines again, judging from the 455 being listed
Also, by 1976 it looks like the Canadian Pontiac was expanding to fill the same role as an American Chevy and American Pontiac. By this time, the lineup was expanded to:
Laurentian (probably a Bel Air equivalent)
Catalina
Grande Parisienne (maybe a Caprice equivalent?)
Bonneville
Bonneville Brougham
I think in some years, in Canada, Pontiac was actually a bigger seller than Chevy, so that might explain the bloated lineup. In the United States, by 1976, Pontiac was struggling to move their big cars.
For 1978, it looks like Pontiac went to a lineup of Laurentian, Catalina, Parisienne/Parisienne Brougham (1978 Canadian Pontiac brochure, courtesy of TOCMP.com)
And, it looks like they went back to using Chevy engines (250 inline-6, 305-2bbl, 350-4bbl, no mention of a 301 or 400). The Catalina and Parisienne look equivalent to the US-spec Catalina and Bonneville, with the exception of the Chevy engines. The Laurentian looks like they used Impala door panels, but took off the woodgrain strip. And, gave it cheaper seat material than what you'd find in an Impala.
Odd that they'd choose to market two low-level big Pontiacs in Canada by that time. I figure the Catalina would be enough, but I guess they felt there was a need for something cheaper. I wonder if Chevy of Canada was pushing something equivalent by that time, possibly still named Bel Air or Biscayne?
But, it's interesting that they had that much overlap in Canada, and allowed it to go on for so long.
I think Pontiac lost it with all the 90s body cladding.
Cars like the Celebrity were bigger overall than the Citation, as much as a foot longer, as I recall. But, most of that length went into the styling...longer front-end to make it look more impressive, and a longer rear, which did bump trunk space up from around 14 to 16 cubic feet. But interior-wise, I think they were close. I think the roof was a bit taller on the A-body from the B-pillar back, so perhaps there was a bit more head room in the back.
The X-body could also be trimmed out pretty nicely inside. The Citation was really cheap in entry-level trim, but I don't think the upper trim levels were bad. And the Phoenix, Omega, and especially the Skylark could be quite luxurious in the top trim levels.
In contrast, I don't think the Corsica, or Grand Am, ever looked that nice inside, no matter what the trim level. Just too much hard plastic, odd shapes, etc. But the Calais and Somerset Regal/N-body Skylark could be pretty nice.
His Citation was a rather dressed-up one with nice plush seats, full wheel covers, white stripe tires, and a two-tone green and cream paint job: cream on top with green below the side trim. He crimped the cream-colored hood in an accident at some point and replaced it with a green hood that matched the lower body making the car look like it was ordered with a deliberately weird two-tone scheme.
He managed to put 195K miles on this car over and it looked like a fugitive from a Mad Max movie by the time he got rid of it.
By the way, will you be at the Philly Auto Show this weekend? I heard back from grbeck, but he can't make it until the second Saturday. I think fezo will be there tomorrow.
I remember when my grandmother's Olds got hit in 1996, the body shop that did the estimate had a dusty Citation sitting in it - the owner said the car had been sitting there since 1982 and had no miles on it. Just an oddity then, stuck in my mind.
I don't know how long she had the car for, or any of its history, though. She currently drives her elderly mother's old 2002 or so Impala.
The neighbors behind us bought a new Citation in 1981, a V-6 I think. However, they only had it a few months, until it was replaced by a 1981 Monte Carlo.
Their previous car was a 1969 or 1970 Sedan DeVille, so I'm sure going to that tiny Citation was a shock! Also, my neighbor worked on cars and liked to do a lot of stuff himself, but when he saw how complex this Citation was, I think he knew it would be nothing but trouble. This guy used to put 350's in Vegas and race them, among other things. Also helped me paint my two Darts, put a leaf spring on the DeSoto, and the door off of a '79 LeMans onto my buddy's '78 Malibu when he snagged a guardrail. I had tried to put the door on myself, but had trouble getting it to align correctly.
Every once in awhile, I'll see a Citation show up at a classic car show. They're old enough now that they're allowed in. Actually, at the fall show in Hershey PA, there's always a really nice white 1980 or so Skylark coupe that always shows up.
It must have really been an eye-opener in the malaise days to go from old land yachts to very downsized cars. Some people were probably never comfortable again...I am pretty sure that's one reason my mother held onto her old T-Bird until the mid 80s.
Oh that reminds me, I once had a co-worker who had a Pontiac Phoenix as his first car. He claimed there were hills in Seattle it couldn't climb - he'd have to back down and turn around. I'd guess that old 4 wasn't the best unit.
I had a friend with a Bronco II in high school that didn't like some of the steep hills in town, it would get down to a crawl. It was far from new then, too.