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1960's Pontiacs

parmparm Member Posts: 724
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  • parmparm Member Posts: 724
    I had to reformat my drive and lost all of my favorite bookmarks. Does anybody recall the name of the website that has the paint carts for classic cars? I think I came to find out about this website through this classic car town hall, but it's been quite awhile ago.

    By the way, I'm surprised nobody chimed in on the post above.

    Hope someone can help me out with regard to the paint chart website. Thanks.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    SOLD for $361!!!
  • speedshiftspeedshift Member Posts: 1,598
    Reminds me of the guy who claimed here that his "mildly modified" Chevelle would get into the nines on a good day. When I said that might be stretching things a bit he offered to let me sit in his car and have my picture taken (I'm editing quite a bit). I've always regretted that I didn't say "but I'm not 1/24th scale" and now it's too late.
  • carnut4carnut4 Member Posts: 574
    If you mean that paint chip chart posted awhile back showing the 62 Cad colors, here's the address


    http://autocolorlibrary.com


    Keep us posted on your search. Still think you should go for 61-62 Cad!

  • parmparm Member Posts: 724
    Thanks for the paint code website. With regard to going for the Cadillac (my preference being 1962-1964), I would if I could find one worth having at an affordable price. However, I've also come to the conclusion that I'd probably be equally happy with a nice '65 Olds 98, '64 Pontiac Bonneville, '66 Buick Electra 225 or Wildcat or a '67 Pontiac Grand Prix (all convertibles, naturally) as well as a few others.

    And so, the search continues . . . .
  • carnut4carnut4 Member Posts: 574
    Those are all nice cars, and in some ways better [Turbo 400 trans, etc] than the earlier Cads. Those Buick Electra convertibles are especially nice-probably the closest you can get to a Cad in pure luxury. I would also expand your list to include the 67 Electra, since it had a completely new engine that year, [a 430 in Electras], that was vastly improved over the old "nailhead" design before it.
    Otherwise, the 66-67s were much the same-at least in convertible form.
    Anyway, glad I saved the paint link for you.
  • jsylvesterjsylvester Member Posts: 572
    Here in the midwest, convertible season is only a couple more months. If you are patient, with the economy declining, prices on the less "collectible" models should be coming down.

    For instance, on Collectorcartraderonline.com, there are 18 64-68 Bonneville Convertibles for sale.

    Makes me feel special, there are 30 Gaxalie convertibles of the same model years noted above for sale. I knew my 67 was not that special, so I was not going to go cross country to find one.

    However, every year a few more bite the dust, so eventually.....
  • parmparm Member Posts: 724
    1966 Bonneville 4-speed with Tri-power. Check it out.


    http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1873503917


    Was tri-power still available in '66?

  • speedshiftspeedshift Member Posts: 1,598
    Tri-Power was available through '66. In addition to all the options mentioned it looks like it might have the sport steering wheel too.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Now that is a car that I REALLY REALLY like!

    What a prize!
  • argentargent Member Posts: 176
    '66 was the final year for Tri-Power. For the 1967 model year GM issued a corporate ban on multi-carb set-ups for all cars except the Corvette (which added a set of tri-power 427s to its lineup).
  • parmparm Member Posts: 724
    I couldn't remember if the ban on Tri-Power came into effect in '66 or '67.
  • parmparm Member Posts: 724
    Wish the seller spent as much time on the interior as he did detailing the engine.

    The interior, while not bad, is not great either. Looks like there are some worn through spots on the console next to the shifter. Also, what's up with that red capped switch below the dash on the left side (to the immediate right of the parking brake release? Looks like an after market do-dad or perhaps this is a factory thing that controls the choke?

    Also, as long as I'm being picky, I'm not a big fan of white cars with a black interior.
  • jsylvesterjsylvester Member Posts: 572
    Didn't see a subject, though I know a discussion has been done in the past.


    http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1873084935

  • parmparm Member Posts: 724
    Actually, I like the 66-67 Lincoln convertibles and I probably started the thread that gone blown off.

    As I recall, I was strongly advised to stay away from Lincolns as the mechanism that raises and lowers the trunk lid was reportedly a problem waiting to happen. Admittedly, it probably has enough wiring and electrical relays to make even Thomas Edison blush.

    It'll be interesting to watch this one. I'm thinking $16K is in excess of this car's value.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Oh, it's only about $5,000 overpriced. A mere 50% error in pricing. Let's see what the public votes.
  • speedshiftspeedshift Member Posts: 1,598
    I know there's a ceiling on its value but it does have all the Pontiac bells and whistles. I don't think any other car maker offered all those performance and appearance features. I'm with Isell, if I had to pick one convertible boat it would that one. I drove a '65 or '66 2+2 four speed 421 Tri-Power once and just sitting behind all those big chromey gauges, with that huge hood stretching off toward the horizon, is quite an experience.
  • ghuletghulet Member Posts: 2,564
    I've always adored the styling of the '65-66 (especially) big Pontiacs. This one has all the right stuff for a Pontiac: tri-power, four speed, buckets, wood wheel, eight lug wheels, factory air and power windows. It's a big, luxury sport boat. I'm wondering what the reserve is on it. Parm, keep us updated.
  • speedshiftspeedshift Member Posts: 1,598
    Yes, she's a beauty but I'm disappointed with the dash--it's too Chevy-like for me. That low-profile air cleaner is the same one used on GTOs and I think the design goes back to the Corvette 283.

    We're all agreed that Parm should be driving Pontiac but what about a backup choice? Maybe a '65 Impala SS (only year full gauges were standard although it's still not a knock-out dash) with maybe a 396/425? Would that be nice? Or how about a 327/300 with four speed?
  • parmparm Member Posts: 724
    Actually, I was kind of thinking of letting my membership in the Pontiac Oakland Club International (POCI) lapse.

    Because of their performance image, big Pontiacs seem to go for bigger money. That's probably why I've been leaning toward Buicks and Oldsmobiles lately - though at $19,000, that maroon 98 convertible I like so much at Duffy's certainly isn't flying under the radar price wise.

    Here's a picky point, but for me an issue worth considering, that tends to steer me away from Pontiacs (but, only slightly). As cool looking as buckets seats are, I think I'd prefer a bench seat (but only if it has 6-way power). Why? Because, a 6-way bench would be a much more comfortable ride. Furthermore, you generally get a pull-down center arm rest which adds to the comfort level. 6-way power seats are fairly common with full-size Buicks & Oldsmobiles.

    GM buckets back then were only 4-way (sans a rake adjustment) but more often than not were usually just the manual, fixed rake angle, slide-on-a-track variety. And, this is typically what I find in Grand Prix's, Catalina's and most Bonnevilles - though I've seen some Bonnie's with 6-way bench seats.

    The manual seats would be virtually maintenance-free to be sure (that's good). But, I just don't think they'd offer the comfort I'm looking for. When I was younger, my body would conform to anything and not care. My '72 Grand Prix and '77 Trans Am had fixed buckets (with slide adjustment) and they were never a problem. Actually, my T/A had the factory custom buckets and they were very comfortable. But, now that I've reached the ripe old age of 42, it seems most of the bucket seats from the mid-60's I sit in aren't places I'd like to spend a lot of time in.

    I sat in a guy's 67 Grand Prix convertible fairly recently and while I thought the car was neat, I didn't relish the thought of doing any serious touring in it.

    So, call me annal or call me old (perhaps both?). But, I look at it this way. The last thing I want to do is drop $10,000 (or whatever the number turns out to be) on a toy I can't get comfortable in behind the wheel. It would defeat the purpose of the whole experience. I want a car that even the mere anticipation of driving it puts a smile on my face.

    So, will it be a Pontiac? Maybe. But, it's gotta be one with a comfortable driver's seat.

    I freely admit I'm being critical. But, give me credit for knowing what I want.

    Gotta go now. I'm late from my group therapy session. ;-)
  • speedshiftspeedshift Member Posts: 1,598
    How about a '65-7 Ford or Mercury? 390, C-6 automatic, 9" rear end--the drivetrain is just about indestructable. Handsome cars and not too big (Shifty just choked). The Merc in particular might be a lot of car for the money. Or have we had this discussion?
  • parmparm Member Posts: 724
    Funny you should mention that. I saw a '67 S-55 Mercury convertible a couple of years ago that was in a parade. Actually, this is probably the car that got my juices flowing wanting a 60's convertible.

    I was no stranger to Mercury in that we had a couple of new Colony Park station wagons (one was a '67) when I was a kid. But, I'd never even heard of an S-55 until then. That night I jumped on the internet to learn about them and it opened up a whole new world. I've not been the same since. Just ask my wife.
  • andys120andys120 Member Posts: 23,388
    about seats and driving position. Truth is that this is an area where tremendous strides have been made in the past 30-40 years. I can tell you that the seats in even the more luxurious cars were lousy. Yes, power adjustments help make them bearable for long trips but I'd be wary of anything with a non-power seat and/or lacking a tilt-wheel.

    2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93

  • parmparm Member Posts: 724
    http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1873503917&category=6417


    With 3 days to go, the bidding is up to $18,200. Any guesses as to the top bid and whether the reserve will be met?


    Here's my two cents. Whatever the high bid turns out to be, it will still be below the reserve.

  • parmparm Member Posts: 724
    http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1873986701


    Here's what looks to be an interesting 1965 Catalina 2+2 convertible. Problem is, the 1965 tri-power motor is not original to this specific car.


    Assuming the car really is an actual 2+2, how much of a "hit" does the value of this car take due to the non-original engine? Or, does it take any hit (?) since the motor that's in there is a 421 tri-power (the Holy Grail itself).

  • ghuletghulet Member Posts: 2,564
    ...is the whole engine not original (block)? The seller just mentions that 'the tri-power unit is not original, probably from a GTO' (was the tri-power unit on the 389 the same as on the 421?).
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    There may or may not be a discount, depending on the condition of the car and what the new buyer wants to do with it.

    I'd say it's a wash if there's a contemporary 421 in there and if the car is bought to be driven.

    I don't think there's any such thing as a 2+2 convertible is there? The name 2+2 means
    "coupe" by definition.

    RE: Bid on 66 Bonnie --- price bid was market correct. Kruse is just holding out for Ebay over-retail frenzy I guess.
    Certainly with an 11 year old repaint and a rebuilt engine the car could hardly be called "original" anymore. Sounds like a nice car but a private party should not find this bid insulting in any way. Another $1,000 or so surely should buy it. If they want more, it'll have to go live auction with the drinks flowing.
  • parmparm Member Posts: 724
    http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1873503917

    I must say I'm rather surprised to see that $18,200 for this '66 Bonneville convertible is market correct. Personally, I don't know whether it is or it isn't. I'm only trying to learn at the foot of the master ;-)

    But, I do know that CPI shows $13,000 as the value for a '66 Bonneville convertible in excellent condition. And, I recall you saying in the past that the 4-speed probably doesn't impact the price one way or another. So, there is a fairly wide gap between CPI and this "market correct" figure of $18,200.

    I only bring this up given your history of preferring CPI for determining "real world" values.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,677
    ...but I'm almost positive that there was a 2+2 convertible for a few years. Maybe it didn't last as long as the hardtop coupe, but I'm sure I've seen pics of them.

    I have a Consumer Guide auto encyclopedia, and I'm pretty sure it has a pic of a '65 Catalina 2+2 'vert, in blue. I'll look it up when I get a chance.
  • speedshiftspeedshift Member Posts: 1,598
    Yes, there was a 2+2 convertible. Not the first year (1964) but later.

    Pontiac never let exact terminology get in the way of marketing. GTO wasn't a homologated Gran Turismo. Grand Prix never ran in one (except the stoplight variety).

    The trips could be off any Pontiac from 1958-66, not just a GTO. They sold a ton of Tri-Power Catalinas in the early '60s.
  • bhill2bhill2 Member Posts: 2,471
    just mean the car is designed to carry 2 passengers with the ability to carry 2 more occasionally (if they're not your favorite people and even then only for short distances)?

    2009 BMW 335i, 2003 Corvette cnv. (RIP 2001 Jaguar XK8 cnv and 1985 MB 380SE [the best of the lot])

  • parmparm Member Posts: 724
    The September 2001 issue of Car Collector magazine profiles a '65 Pontiac 2+2 convertible.

    Per the magazine, the 2+2 first showed up in 1964 as on option package on the Catalina. Again, in 1965 it was a Catalina option. In 1966 it was a distinct model of it's own. The 2+2's last hurrah was in '67, again as an option package.

    Collector Car's article profiles generally include a sidebar about recent values. Interestingly enough, they use CPI as their reference source for values.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well I guess if Pontiac can call a muscle car GTO then they can call a ragtop a 2+2. It hasn't been used before or since to describe a convertible, to the best of my knowledge.

    Ah, well, no big deal.

    66 Pontiac: By "market correct" I mean "high retail", and I think with an add-on for tri-power, and an ad-on for knowing the history and owenrship (called "documented provenance" in the trade), and an add-on for low miles, you could justify going over CPI, as CPI does not factor these premiums in. Tri-power alone is often 25%.

    But I'd have to see the car. If I saw tape lines for the repaint or rusty manifolds, etc., I'd knock the car hard---as might the bidders who are bidding blind on this baby.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,677
    ...and sure enough, it shows a pic of a '65 Catalina 2+2 convertible, light blue with a white interior, and 8-lug wheels. Hey Parm, it's got Illinois plates on it!! Maybe if it's still around, it's not TOO far from ya! (I got this book for Christmas 1988 though, so God only knows where it is now!)

    The only production figures I see listed are for 1966, when 6,383 were built. They don't break it down by body style though. All other years it's just listed in with regular Catalina production, since it was just an option package in those other years.

    As for the nomenclature, I guess they called it 2+2 partly because it came standard with bucket seats up front. They still had a bench in the back though, didn't they? I mean, it wasn't 4 buckets like a '66 Charger or anything, was it?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Exactly. That's why I thought it made no sense.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Now, here is a nice Pontiac although it's the "wrong" color...oh well, someone will like it.

    But, the gas guage doesn't work?

    Why don't people take the time and trouble to fix things like that? I mean, they spend thousands of dollars on the car but don't fix a lousy gas guage?

    And, brother, that Poncho NEEDS a functioning gas guage! Open up all of those carbs for a block, and you'll use three gallons!
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,677
    ...but then I didn't spend an arm and a leg on the car, either! It does at least give me a warning though, when I'm running low. Normally, you can't see the needle on the gauge at all, but when the level drops low enough, it'll drift lazily back and forth across the face of the gauge.
  • speedshiftspeedshift Member Posts: 1,598
    IIRC it's usually just the sender but you've got to drop the tank to replace it. Not a big deal and also a good time to chemically clean the inside and seal it. Most old cars have a nice layer of rust and sediment from gas in the bottom of the tank. It was a real problem with two cars I had. The carb doesn't get enough gas.
  • parmparm Member Posts: 724
    http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1873986701


    With a little less than 2 days to go, the bidding on this '65 2+2 convertible is up to $13,952 (and 26 cents!). So, where's the price ceiling on this car?


    Pretty cool color combination if you ask me. The non-original tri-power set up, automatic transmission and manually operated top (weren't power tops standard on all full-size GM convertibles back then?) probably keeps the hard-core muscle car guys &/or collectors away and thus keeps the value from attaining orbit status.


    This car seems to look good in all the right places. If only it had a 6-way power drivers seat!

  • speedshiftspeedshift Member Posts: 1,598
    I like the color too. It's looks good on the car and it's not a common color, although I'd guess that detracts from value, maybe a lot.

    Fixing the turn signal indicator involves removing the steering wheel which requires a puller. The top was probably power but the hydraulics are leaking so the top has been disconnected from the raising mechanism--very common. Small stuff but all this plus the gas gauge suggests the current owner isn't a perfectionist.

    What's with painting the 8-lugs black? Aside from that the car looks good, or as good as you can tell from the photos.

    If anything I think it's the color that holds the car back. Color might be the most important thing, especially to guys who just want a convertible, not necessarily a piece of Pontiac history. Different is not necessarily good.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,677
    ...more and more like mine! My power top doesn't work either. The motor will run, but all the hydraulic fluid leaked out years ago, before I bought it. My turn signal works sporadically. Sometimes it'll blink when I turn it on and sometimes it just stays on solid, with no flashing.

    I do like that color too. Actually, I think my Mom's '66 was kind of that color. I don't know, it's been ages since I've seen a pic of it. It mght've been more of a goldish or champagne, but I recall kind of a greenish tint.
  • carnut4carnut4 Member Posts: 574
    That's definitely a nice car parm. It has a fun factor way better than any Cad convertible. I think if you were to go for anything other than the 62-64 Cad, this Pontiac might be the best deal of all. That's unless you could find a nice Electra for much less.
    I wonder where the bidding will stop.
  • speedshiftspeedshift Member Posts: 1,598
    Beware the unusual color.
  • parmparm Member Posts: 724
    I've been in contact with the seller and he said the buckets seats have no adjustment - other than the sliding track. Bummer!

    The buckets seats are cool to look at but, I suspect they're way too upright for me.

    Speedshift, what's up with the color? Sure, it's not "retail red", but I rather like the metallic green. Then again, I'd prefer bucket seats too. Of course, if GM would've made 6-way power bucket seats back then, I'd be all over them.
  • speedshiftspeedshift Member Posts: 1,598
    I like the color but I found that buyers don't like to stray from the usual colors. Just my experience and not the final word on the subject, but if the car sells for less than you expected I'll bet that's it.

    I don't know if it's that most people only like certain colors (could well be, that's why the same basic colors tend to hang around) or if they're afraid someone will say "that's a weird color".

    Colors go in and out of fashion but that particular shade of green has been out longer than it's been in--how many cars have you seen that color? It's kind of '60s trendy and trendy doesn't usually have staying power. Like that Lime Gold that Mustangs and Cougars came in back then and hasn't been seen since. Or like the Avocado Green and Harvest Gold that instantly identify appliances from the late '60s.

    Maybe it's just me. Color is my life ;-).
  • ghuletghulet Member Posts: 2,564
    I rather like the greeny golds, seafoams and the like that were found on late '60s cars. I'm tired of red, white and black convertibles, but that's just me. Of course, owning one and having to resell it is probably another story.

    Parm, GM did sell power buckets (driver's side only, tilting, which indicates to me that the fore and aft are still manual) for the '65 big Pontiacs ($71 option). Good luck finding one. I imagine it's even more rare than most of the options that you find on fairly 'loaded' Pontiacs of the era (tilt wheel, a/c, power windows, 8-tracks with reverb, etc.).
  • wq59bwq59b Member Posts: 61
    A few corrections:

    The 8-lug rims being black on the e-Bay car is correct for '64-68 8-lugs.

    You could also get the 2+2 option on the convertible in '64 (the 2+2 was available as a convert or 2-dr hardtop in all 4 model/option years).

    "GTO" Tri-Powers can indeed be used on full-size Pontiacs, as they both use Pontiac engines. The only diff is mechanical vs. vacuum linkage (which is why you are a fool to pay a premium for a "GTO Tri-Power" over one from a Bonneville). The qualifier is not model interchanges, but year interchanges. '65 & 66 (and later) heads can swap Tri-Ps, '64 and earlier are different and will not bolt up to post-65 heads.
  • ghuletghulet Member Posts: 2,564
    I understand now that the '64 and earlier is one particular setup and the '65-66 is another, but I'm under the impression (from some of the ad links posted here) that the setup is the same (year for year) for the 389 and the 421. In other words, does the 389 setup fit the 421 (given the year differentiations noted above)? Please clarify.

    Otherwise, the assertion I thought I read earlier that the 2+2 tri-power is 'the same' (given that GTO was offered with 389 only, 2+2 had 421s only) is obviously wrong.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    John Gunnell's Pontiac Buyer's Guide says that 19,672 Catalinas were equipped with the 2+2 option from 1965-67. So, by American standards, fairly rare.
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