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Comments
Take a look at the first post in this group. The Escape Hybrid was certainly not rushed to market. Only time will tell if they've done it right, but so far it seems like they've put quite a lot of work into this project. I'm willing to try it out.
In 2006, there will be some new diesel fuel and those diesel engines may very well take off. The technology sound very appealing to me! That's for sure. For me, for right now, the Escape Hybrid fits the bill.
I have no doubt that they could make engines run on 100% bio fuel. However, it's quite an expensive undertaking to get something like that to the general public. The companies need incentive. Demand for hybrid vehicles is a start. Government tax breaks may also help. Ethanol 87 release in the midwest was followed by a substantial marketing campaign. These things take time people.
1 able to be made, done or achieved:
2 possible or reasonable:
I meant what I said. It is not possible or reasonable to expect ethanol to replace gasoline. It is possible to expect biodiesel to replace petroleum diesel.
FFV is totally feasible, since over 3 million of them are already on the road in the US. And since Ford a leader in this, don't be surprised when you see it available in their hybrids.
Ethanol is totally feasible, since those crops are just as easy to grow as the others.
JOHN
This can be debated in another topic. Back to the Escape Hybrid.
I would expect MSRP as long as they have wait lists.
-juice
I still remember my 1984 ford, was the first year with fuel injection. It never worked right, mechanics told me o sell the car because the first year of any new gadget is bad news! I will not buy anything in the beta phase again! Hope you all will do the same.
That was a common issue that was later rectified (same as Focus), the brake pads they should be installing, should NOT be the same as previous, and if anything, an upgrade. Try http://flatratetech.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=forum;f=13
That site (Flat Rate Tech) can help you and better explain the procedure, what to say, etc. when you go in next for repair.
Capers,
Sanyo who makes the battery packs, is only allowed to build a certain number of battery pack units because of limited capacity. It's not Ford's fault thay can only churn out 20K of them a year.
Titled: Ford Escape improves crash test rating
Redesigned 2005 SUV earns 2nd highest rank
http://www.detnews.com/2004/autosinsider/0406/15/a05-182743.htm
Source: Detroit News
Paul
The more inside info I learn about the automotive industry the more I see the rip-off. By the way, my inside info sources have proven out over the last 30 years.
The big Three has recently been raised parts prices ,on normal replacement parts 30-300%?, hoping to get buyers to replace there vehicles after 5 years.
That would be nice, however early forced retirement has many of us Americans in a real bind. "Blood out of a Turnip"
Thank-heavens for car buffs web sites, I'm keeping my 98 Mystique LS in excellent running condition for at least 10 more years!
Paul Echelberger
N8BUU
The web site even says "assist lanch" only, restart and regeneritive from braking. All this thru the, I'm sure (larger), serpentine belt. Go the viseton's web site and check powertrains.
For my money way to early for this to be of value out in the coutry-side. City would be ideal? Then their's winter temps. The military still has nothing affordable for what mother nature takes away from a battery. If it's not affordable it's of no value to the masses.
Paul
Sorry for the Rant, but just trying to uphold the Ole Marine teaching, who luckly survived Iwo Jima and the depression. Whole different set of values than what's out there now!
Subaru earned a "Good" rating way, way back in 1998, without even side air bags!
This is 7 years of progress? C'mon Ford. They have about 10 billion times the resources, it really ought to be a "Best Pick", no excuses.
-juice
2001-2005 Escapes without SAB/SAC rated poor in the IIHS' new side impact test along with many other makes and models. Like the Forester, the 2001-2004 Escapes rated good in the test when equipped with SABs (The Forester was not tested without them because they are standard as you already know). The 2005 model, which the hybrid is nearly identical to, has not been side tested by them yet. However, it does have the "Safety Canopy" system available and should do just as well as the older models.
The acceptable rating you referred to is from their frontal offset test in which the Escape did improve to from marginal on the older models.
Oddly enough, the '05 model went from 5 stars to 4 stars in the NHTSA frontal test. The rest stayed the same where the two in front are now 4 and 5's for the rest.
Anyone know if they'll be testing the hybrid separately? I'm guessing yes.
And for some of you others. Are you this bitter all the time? I know it's a message board and they were basically created to allow people to bitc#, but come on. At least Ford is out there with Honda and Toyota on the Hybrid technology. Sure Honda beat everyone but at least Ford isn't last to the party. Will it have problems early on? Probably. Will there be some mark-up initially? Probably. Not many vehicles come out perfect out of the gate. Seen the reports on the Nissan Titan? Bottom line, it's an important step forward in technology that should be supported, not villified.
The Hybrid version (structurally) is the same, therefore it will not be tested.
Besides all the bags in the world aren't going to save you when that 18 wheeler flattens you.
I know too many friends that were messed up in Nam, an if that's how I have to live forget it. It's all or nothing.
Just being realistic, we've got quit relying on the Government to save us from our shelves. Throw away those "XXX books for Dummies"
I think we all should take a Bourderant courses and learn to drive and find out what threshold braking is. ETC
Paul
Not sure the best way to reference, on this site, my 2 cents. Hmmmmmmmm
I'm use to talking direct or mainly across the world on Ham radio where you can catch yourself or explain yourself. Old habit calling in air strikes you have to have coordinates NOW!
regrets
Paul
http://www.uwsp.edu/geo/courses/geog100/CarCult-Big3.htm
Follow the money, like political contributions from the oil companies to both democrats and republicans. This is well documented, so the federal government will be of no help in finding the truth.
2. and has been made possible only after Ford had to Buy Toyota Tech.
(that may actually be a relief, given that Fords have had lousy quality and reliability lately)
3. The Edmunds test did NOT have a serious MPG measurement, but instead had a couple drivers do a 6-mile loop driving totally unrealistically.
4. FOr example, they did not measure MPG on a typical 65-75 mph highway trip, where there is NO advantage of the Hybrod over the non-hybrod Escape.
5. Many people buy hybrids like crazy these days, and are willing to pay $8,000 (!) over list for a Prius. This is ludicrous. VERY FEW of these people really NEED a Hybrid.
6. These people could do much better COST wise even if they paid $0 over list for their hybrid, if they bought a non-hybrid version of that from the same company.
(eg, Civic Hybrid, $6,000 more expensive than the very efficient Civic HX. Drovers will practically NEVER recover that cost, even with $2 or $2.50 gas.)
7. If you buy a Hybrid for Enviro reasons, think again. You may have slightly less emissions than the aleaady ULEV or even SULEV gas equivalents, BUT thnik about disposal of the huge BATTERY every few years (or 80,000 -100,000 miles)
8. The BEST applications for Hybrids are for CITY FLEETS and for private owners who do A LOT of CITY miles.
9. Over in Europe, where gas is far more expensive than even in CA, ($5.60 or more per gallon in the UK, $5.30 in Germany), they LAUGH at Hybrids. They never caught on.
10. That may seem amazing, if you did not know that over there they got Extra-low sulfur, very clean DIESEL Fuel (forget Biodiesel), AND Modern Diesel Engines, NOT yoru fathers utterly unacceptable GM diesels of 1979.
11. More than 40% of new car sales in Europe (and these are tiny cars with smalll engines compared to US sales) are Modern Diesels, with AMAZING MPG.
12. Even the golf-jetta diesel sold here get 54 mpg REAL Highway MPG, and 49 EPA mpg. Beats almost any hybrid, and with much more comfort and lower cost as well.
But let me stop here. I hope I woke many of you up.
> I remember test driving a 1985 Honda CRV HF. The HF stood for high fuel efficiency. The car got over 50 MPG in 1985!
That's right. There were even 60 mpg EPA versions.
> I can't believe that we haven't improved MPG much at all in almost 20 years! Makes me wonder if the oil companies have any financial interest in the car manufactures.
I can. It's the DIRT_CHEAP gas prices, that make it possible for anybody to own and drive a gas-guzzler. Tax gas, tax the hell out o fit, and you will see people behaving RATIONALLY and NOT commute in v-8 explorers and expeditions 100 miles every day!
> Makes me wonder after hearing that the oil companies bought all the mass transit in LA and destroyed them in the 50's.
it was GM, NOT the Oil cos, that played those dirty tricks on Buses, Rails etc, to promote Cars. NOT the slandered on a daily basis oil companies. Please. No conspiracy theories without FACTS to back them up.
That is a misconception.
SUBURB driving is actually the best (less stops and faster speed, but still not like HIGHWAY).
JOHN
> The BEST applications for Hybrids are for CITY FLEETS and for private owners who do A LOT of CITY miles.
That is a misconception.
b It certainly is not. I know quite well what I am talking about. The benefits of the Hybrid are least on the Highway. And many suburbanites that commute 50 miles each way every day, do most of these miles on the highway.
SUBURB driving is actually the best (less stops and faster speed, but still not like HIGHWAY).
The fewer the stops, the LESS you benefit from all the Hybrid Features that your gas or diesel Car Does NOT have.
Such as regenerative braking, engine shut-off etc.
I thought this would be obvious, but most people go Hybrid-shopping without really knowing what they are doing.
Then there are the many Engineers that do not NEED a Hybrid, but are fascinated by the displays and all the tech.
For them, it is a mobile Video Game.
I used to be for Hybrids for private owners as well as city fleets, but it is city fleets that make a far, far, far better application.
I'm glad to see University and Coty police fleets to buy several Priuses. Taxis and delivery vehicles would also be good applications.
NOT the Average driver who does many Highway miles a year. Including those with 40-100 mile a day commutes.
Very good input and welcome to particpation in these forums.
YMMV,
MidCow
Atkinson cycle that reduce pumping loss and smaller displacement ICE(compare to similar performance V6) give full hybrids total advantage even on highway.
"You may have slightly less emissions than the aleaady ULEV or even SULEV gas equivalents, BUT thnik about disposal of the huge BATTERY every few years (or 80,000 -100,000 miles)"
If anyone drive 80k to 100k miles in a few years, I do not recommend hybrids for them. The hybrid drivetrain component warrenty will run out quick. Highway cruising condition for hybrids use much less recharge cycles of the battery, therefore further extending battery life(10,000 cycles). As for the huge battery and disposal comment, refer to usbseawolf2000 "The Great Battery Debate" Jun 10, 2004 9:24pm for more info.
Dennis
That is *NOT* true of a FULL hybrid.
Clearly, you are not aware of the design differences between a FULL hybrid, an ASSIST hybrid, and a MILD hybrid.
Don't worry, it's a very common misconception.
There are 3 distinct types of hybrids now, each works quite different from the other.
The FULL hybrid enjoys slow steady cruises, exactly like those in the suburbs... generous stretches of 35 to 50 MPH road.
Did you know that a FULL hybrid can be driven using only electricity, allowing it to handle stop & slow traffic without using any gas at all? The other types can't.
Did you know that a FULL hybrid can create & consume electricity on-the-fly, allowing it to use the electric motor without needing to use the battery-pack at all? The other types can't.
Did you know that a FULL hybrid can charge the battery-pack while climbing up a steep hill, allowing it to have a greater charge-level after reaching the top than it did when it started at the bottom? The other types can't.
JOHN
>displacement ICE(compare to similar performance V6)
>give full hybrids total advantage even on highway.
SO in effect you are saying the Prius does not meant this requirement becuase ther EPA Mileage estimates are 60/51 indicating a disadvantage on the highway compared to city mileage.
Also, the "Assist" and "Mild" are more efficient on the highway.
Question why do you mention three Hybrid types: Full, ASSIST and MILD and only elborate about the perceived advantages of the FULL What not mention the disavantages of the FULL and well as the advantages and disadvantages of the ASSIST and MILD. It seems that would clear up the misconception you state that well_informed has ??
Hmm, interesting.
You did *EXACTLY* what I did, yet the same comment doesn't apply to you.
Why?
You claimed the "Assist" and "Mild" are more efficient on the highway, yet didn't mention anything else... if fact, you didn't even explain the claim itself either. Of course, by definition of the hybrid types, they are not more efficient anyway. Features like VCM are not bound to any particular type.
Think about it, a smaller engine stands a much better chance of achieving higher MPG on a highway. Far too much of a large engine is wasted when cruising, that much power is simply not needed. FULL hybrids have a smaller engine.
JOHN
Yes, a full hybrid is at disadvantage on highway compare to city driving. It is due to external factors such as increase in wind resistance, tire resistance, ball bearing speed, oil viscosity, etc.... Think about it, should going slow give you better mileage or should going fast? The obvious and logical answer is going slower.
To clarify this, look at Echo 4 doors manual with 1.5L engine and the new Prius. Highway economy is 43 mpg vs. 51 mpg. Even though Prius is more aerodynamic(slippery), Prius has larger frontal area, so it has to push more air out. Prius(P185) also has wider tires than Echo(P175). Prius HSD does 16% higher efficiency on highway regardless of being a mid-size car. Remember, those two cars have the same displacement engines.
Atkinson cycle ICE(Prius) has about 15% higher thermal efficiency than Otto cycle engine(Echo). If less heat is lost, less fuel is used. The other Prius 1% increase in efficiency must come from efficiency improvement in HSD Planetary CVT over manual transmission or elimination of alternator and electric pumps that are belt driven in traditional cars. Remember, HSD has MG1 generator to power electric accessories as replacement for traditional belt driven parts. This points the extra efficiency to the Planetary CVT.
The advantage of planetary full hybrids like Escape hybrid and Prius is that the drivetrain is always connected to the wheels. It never need to disconnect to shift gears, instead, the ICE and electric motors change RPMs to "simulate" change of torque(shift of gear). The change in torque is instant(within milliseconds) because of the battery power electricity comes in at the speed of, well, electricity.
Stop and go situation is the worse case for full hybrids(or any other hybrids) because the situation forces the car to convert energy from one form to another(mechanical <-> electrical). From the start, gas combustion(ignore electricity for now) powers the wheel, then regen brake convert mechanical energy to electricity. When the car move again, battery electricity is converted back to mechanical energy through electric motors. Energy conversion is never 100%, so there is always loss.
It doesn't take a computer scientist to figure out that stop-n-go traffic takes more energy conversion than on highway cruising. The fact that full hybrids still get higher city mpg than highway points to the energy that need to overcome external environmental factors that I mentioned above.
Dennis
Well_Informed,
Very good input and welcome to particpation in these forums.
YMMV,
MidCow
Thanks! Sorry for my poor editing skills, they will improve fast as I learn the ropes of this editor. But I will probably still make a ton of typos. (Poor Ergonomic position-keyboard)
"4. FOr example, they did not measure MPG on a typical 65-75 mph highway trip, where there is NO advantage of the Hybrod over the non-hybrod Escape."
Atkinson cycle that reduce pumping loss and smaller displacement ICE(compare to similar performance V6) give full hybrids total advantage even on highway.
The Atkinson thing is new. What are the real life data on Highway MPG's observed? The numbers I see are hardly better than the Non-hybrids. And anyway, cant they make non-hybrid cars with the Atkinson?
"You may have slightly less emissions than the aleaady ULEV or even SULEV gas equivalents, BUT thnik about disposal of the huge BATTERY every few years (or 80,000 -100,000 miles)"
If anyone drive 80k to 100k miles in a few years, I do not recommend hybrids for them. The hybrid drivetrain component warrenty will run out quick. Highway cruising condition for hybrids use much less recharge cycles of the battery, therefore further extending battery life(10,000 cycles). As for the huge battery and disposal comment, refer to usbseawolf2000 "The Great Battery Debate" Jun 10, 2004 9:24pm for more info.
I agree, hybrids are not for people who drive lots of miles. They should get either a diesel or a very efficient non-hybrid gas like the Civic HX. Or even the 40 mpg Corolla. But if you drive few miles, the measly additional MPG you get using the hybrid are Dwarfed by the $5,000-%10,000 premium you pay to buy the Hybrid. Do a comparison, for example, Civic Hybrid vs Civic HX, same platform, same capacities and interior room, more or less, and only a trivial difference in MPG. From a $ Standpoint, you will never recover the extra $ you pay up front.
Thanks for Info, BTW.
That is *NOT* true of a FULL hybrid.
Clearly, you are not aware of the design differences between a FULL hybrid, an ASSIST hybrid, and a MILD hybrid.
I am quite aware of the considerable differences between Honda's and Toyota's Hybrid designs.
Whatever they may be, they DO NOT Refute my above statement, IF you read it carefully.
And, more importantly, whatever the hybrid design, ALL of them have hugely infalated and Inaccurate EPA numbers, with real MPG ALWAYS being much less than EPA. While for Non-hybrids, such as mu Accord Coupe, I always get same or higher than EPA mpg. FOe example, I get 32-37 mpg on long highway trips, with the cruise control at 75 mph, while my EPA hwy is only 31.
The FULL hybrid enjoys slow steady cruises, exactly like those in the suburbs... generous stretches of 35 to 50 MPH road. Did you know that a FULL hybrid can be driven using only electricity, allowing it to handle stop & slow traffic without using any gas at all? The other types can't.
Yes. The Prius rarely uses the gas engine around town and in the suburbs. The Honda hybrids are quite different, their electric motor is used far less.
And while I do appreciate the other details you mention, and I assume they are correct,
And i also admit that the New Prius is a major improvement over the old one,
The fact remains: THey advertise EPA numbers of 60 city for the new prius, and everybody that does a real life test gets far less. From the Enthusiast Mags, that run the car hard, to COnsumer reports, that drives it like an old lady. The max they got was 48 mpg (Cons Reports). Same for the Civic Hybrid.
*WRONG* 1.5 is larger than either 1.3 or 1.0
"Assist" Hybrids:
Honda Insignt 1.0 liter engine
Honda Civic Hybrid 1.3 liter engine
"Full" Hybrid
Toyota Prius 1.5 liter engine
Paul
___Since this is a Ford Escape Hybrid forum, why all the peripheral discussion? And with that
The full hybrid enjoys slow steady cruises, exactly like those in the suburbs... generous stretches of 35 to 50 MPH road.
___Has this person driven anything else? All vehicles including Hybrid’s, Diesel’s, and non-Hybrid’s alike achieve the best fuel economy under those conditions.
Did you know that a FULL hybrid can be driven using only electricity, allowing it to handle stop & slow traffic without using any gas at all? The other types can't.
___That is interesting. The 2000 Insight with the original ECU could drive ~ 1 mile on the pack after running out of fuel. Honda pulled the ability of the IMA equipped Honda’s to do this in the 2001 and later MY’s.
Did you know that a FULL hybrid can create & consume electricity on-the-fly, allowing it to use the electric motor without needing to use the battery-pack at all? The other types can't.
___And this helps how?
Did you know that a FULL hybrid can charge the battery-pack while climbing up a steep hill, allowing it to have a greater charge-level after reaching the top than it did when it started at the bottom? The other types can't.
___I have seen an increase in SOC while climbing hills while not using assist myself. So what is being said here?
To clarify this, look at Echo 4 doors manual with 1.5L engine and the new Prius. Highway economy is 43 mpg vs. 51 mpg. Even though Prius is more aerodynamic(slippery), Prius has larger frontal area, so it has to push more air out. Prius(P185) also has wider tires than Echo(P175). Prius HSD does 16% higher efficiency on highway regardless of being a mid-size car. Remember, those two cars have the same displacement engines.
___Did someone miss that the Echo w/ a Stick is a 0 - 60 in 8.5 second car? Even with an Auto it’s faster then the Prius II. In other words, it doesn’t need a Hybrid drivetrain to walk all over the Prius II. Place the detuned Echo ICE from the Prius II in the std. Echo w/ a stick and it would have the following:
1. 0 - 60 times of < 11 seconds (similar to that of the Prius II)
2. EPA Hwy estimate of ~ 55 + mpg (higher then the Prius II)
3. PZEV rating
4. Cost ~ $10K base.
___Sorry in advance to all of those interested in reading about the Ford Escape Hybrid.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
Did you forget that Echo is a smaller and lighter car than Prius? Echo has higher power-to-weight ratio. No doubt it will go faster in 0-60.
Dennis
P.S: I am going to start a very important new board to compare Prius against Allion which they share the same platform. We should pick up this discussion over there.
Good starting point for those who want read on the direction of Hybrids, diesel and fuel cells. ETC
You can register to be able to download info, however I was able to get basic info that enough for me right now.
anyone work for this research group?
TNX
Paul
-juice
2005 Ford Escape Hybrid
Sunday, June 20, 2004; Page G01
Downside: There is a discernible but transient "thump" when the gasoline engine and electric motor join forces to propel the Escape Hybrid from "stop" to "go." The air conditioner needs to be switched to "maximum" to keep it and the engine going in city traffic.
Ride, acceleration and handling: Very good ride. Excellent acceleration. Good handling.
Body style/layout: It's a compact, dual-drivetrain SUV with four side doors and a rear hatch. It is available with front-wheel drive or all-wheel drive. Front-wheel drive, used in the tested vehicle, gets better mileage.
Propulsion system/transmission: A 133-horsepower, four-cylinder gasoline engine works with a 94-horsepower-equivalent electric motor to drive the Escape Hybrid. The propulsion system is linked to an electronically controlled continuously variable (eCVT) transmission (which saves fuel by eliminating fixed gear ratios).
Mileage: I averaged 23 miles per gallon on the highway and 30 mpg in the city.
My comment: THIS is MISERABLE. 23 hwy??? 30 city is OK, but you can ger 28 HWY with any SATURN VUE, Honda CRV, or any other escape-sized vehicle with an 130-160 HP 4-cylinder engine and no fancy schmanzy hybrid stuff.
Civic HF was a lot lighter (anyone know the curb weight?). Add all the modern safety equipment and features and it probably wouldn't get the same mileage that it did back in the day.
-juice
The HF was quite light, but could carry only 2 passengers. It did have a large hatch behind them for cargo, but I am not sure of its allowable cargo weight.
There were many other very fuel efficient Civic HAtchbacks in 1990-93.
Our Euro-spec 1.35 lt, 1875 lbs, 5-passenger (it can really take 5) Cute Civic HAtch, 75 hp, skinny tires, makes 44 mpg Highway.
But I wanted to wait to get the next one, the 1992-92 Civic VX hatch, which was advertised at 51 or 55 MPG. And that was a strong 5-passenger hatch, not a featherweight 2-seater with a 60-hp engine, as the HF was.
And it took it three years, plus paying a ton of $ to Toyota to use its patented Hybrid tech, to finally produce it.
THe above sure is true of the journalist who drove it under realistic conditions, not trying to maximize MPG and driving it as if there was an egg between his foot and the gas pedal.
""I had hopes for the Escape Hybrid, when I expected something like 38 city, 30 hwy. ""
That may well be the official EPA numbers.
""But I also thought it was going to priced about $23,000. Instead the price begins near $27,000 and goes up from there.""
$33,000 fully optioned 4WD.
"" There will be a few enthusiasts who will go for it, but at this performance and price, why buy it? Better to get the 4 cyl. gasser if you want an Escape, and save your money. ""
I'd not buy any SUV, much less a Ford Escape, hybrid or not.
A 6-sp Accord Coupe Hybrid would be far more attractive. Or an Accord V-6 with cylinder deactivation, getting excellent highway mpg. And you can drive it cross country for several 12 hour days and still not be tired when you get out of it at the end of the day.