V8 Conversions

amazon · October 2002

I figured we could discuss V8 conversions on this board. A BB Chevy in a late model Corvette, or a Ford 289 in a Volvo P1800?

rea98d · October 2002

Or one of my personal favorites, a 454 Chevy in a Jag Series 3 XJ6. Purists will cringe!

Mr_Shiftright · October 2002

There seem to be, to my mind anyway, V8 conversions that make a lot of sense, some that are dubious at best, and some that are a crime.

dgraves1 · October 2002

So what are the good ones in your mind, Shifty? Not thinking of replacing that tired Miata engine with a nice Ford 5.0 are you?

ndance · October 2002

http://www.westpro.com/Spitfire/Beast_Folder/Beast_Main/Beast_Visit.html

Mr_Shiftright · October 2002

Oh dear....well I hope his insurance is paid up.

I think a "good" V8 conversion would include something like Big Engine into Big Car as a baseline.

So the conversions I like personally would be to put a modern FI block into older 50s and 60s cars (along with better brakes, tires, suspension,etc) while retaining the "classic" look of the 50s and 60s. In this way you get much better fuel mileage and performance and you can enjoy your old car out in the Modern World at modern speeds.

Of course, I wouldn't do this to a '57 Chevy convertible (well, maybe I would) but to any say 4-door car or 2-door post sedan, sure why not?

Another conversion I like is a V8 in the rather ponderous cars of the 30s and 40s. It really livens them up and makes them more practical to drive.

Conversions I don't like are butchering a British sports car or a Jaguar sedan, since putting a V8 in either ruins the very character and balance of the car, and contrary to popular belief, does not improve "reliability". In the case of the British cars, it's not the engines that are the problem.

I realize people put big V8s in small cars for the rush of straight-on acceleration, but I've found at least from my experience that driving this type of conversion gets old pretty fast, after the first few days of that "rush". The cars are clumsy, scary, hard to control, and often look pretty ugly with all the chopping, lifting and the hood scoops. That Spitfire you linked to is a perfect example of how the aesthetics suffer, and I'm sure the handling. It can't be very pleasant to drive.

Some people point to a Sunbeam Tiger as an example of how a good conversion can work in a small car, but even those are not pleasant cars to drive. Aside from having to steer with the gas pedal, you have a very cramped cockpit, no leg room, and scads of engine heat wafting up at you on summer days. Not fun.

Of course, I have seen Tigers "corrected" for some of these deficiencies, and they are better, but they ain't Cobras by a long shot. The fact that Tigers have barely broken $20K in value after all these years says something about their desirability as a driving car.

andre1969 · October 2002

...once it doesn't have to go through the emissions test anymore (and I have the money!) is to put a big block in my '79 New Yorker. Or I wonder if one of the modern 360 crate motors would work just as well?

Another pipe dream I had awhile back, when I had my '82 Cutlass Supreme with its shot 231, was putting a Pontiac 400 in it. At the time I had this beat-up '69 Bonneville that had a great engine. It could move that beast of a Bonneville with no trouble, so I always wondered what it would've done in something lightweight, like my Cutlass?

ndance · October 2002

http://britishv8.org/swaps/mgb454.htm

dgraves1 · October 2002

Is that the best you can do? Come on, somebody has got to have a Viper engined Lotus Seven out there.

Mr_Shiftright · October 2002

Actually putting a Rover V8 in an MGB wasn't a bad idea, since the V8 was lighter than the cast iron four. On the down side, it was a Rover V8, and so a gas hog and none too reliable with British electrics and cooling. Even so, a modern hatckback will probably walk away from an MGB V8. It was only maybe an 8 second car.The factory only put them in the MGB-GT, which was the world's first production hatchback and is actually a very neat car to own. I wouldn't mind having a factory V8 MGB GT, but there's lots I'd do to it to make it a better car.

carnut4 · October 2002

Wow I had no idea there were so many MGB conversions out there-let alone a website with so many others. Great pictures.
I wish there were some road tests of some of these. I'm sure there are huge differences in drivability, depending on the swap.
Anyway, thanks for posting!

amazon · October 2002

A big block Chevy in an MGB... Imagine the feeling when you floor it. A BB with aluminum heads, intake, and water pump would also be lighter than most Big Blocks out there.

andys120 · October 2002

would you have a preference for the MGB V8 over the MGC with the big Healey six?

Mr_Shiftright · October 2002

It depends....on the one hand it's nice having all that low end power, which the MGC doesn't...but having a torquey six that's meant for leisurely cruising is also nice. But the MGC engine is heavy, so it's hard to fling the car around---which is half the fun on an MGB.

In truth, a beefed-up 4 cylinder engine is what's best for the MGB. If you can bump one up to 130-140HP, put in an overdrive, that's about as sweet as an MGB is going to get.

ndance · October 2002

http://www.bryanf.com/mycars/510V6.htm

lancerfixer · October 2002

http://www.converseengineering.com

http://www.jagsthatrun.com (love the name.)

argent · October 2002

This isn't quite on topic, because it's not a V-8, but it's certainly in the same spirit. This fellow has, at great cost and effort, transplanted a Jaguar V-12 into a Corvair. It's now a front-engine, rear-transaxle car, mating the stroked (now 5.7L) V-12 to a modified Pontiac Tempest torque tube and transaxle using a 4-speed transmission created by adding a second planetary gearset to a Powerglide automatic with a manual clutch in place of the torque converter. It's quite possibly the wildest powertrain swap I've ever seen.

http://www.corvaircorsa.com/V-12-01.html

has lots of info and photos. Must be seen to be believed.

rea98d · October 2002

Hmm...Don't those V-12's have a propensity to overheat. And with no radiator grille on the front...Hope he doesn't drive through Texas in July. If nothing else, it would make Ralph Nader happy, as all that V-12 weight over the front axel would cure the car's tendency to swap ends when you push it too far.

speedshift · October 2002

If you wade through the web site far enough you'll see he's improved the way hot coolant leaves the engine. And apparently the weight distribution is 48/52.

This is all way over my head but to me it looks like a staggering amount of engineering and workmanship. The "why" part is there too but as they say, there is no art without the resistance of the medium. This guy certainly ran into plenty of resistance.

What is it about engineers and Corvairs?

Mr_Shiftright · October 2002

Truly impressive project, even if it makes no sense whatsoever. The guy's skill and workmanship is awesome. Obviously, this is pure brain exercise at the Olympic games level.

andys120 · October 2002

to produce a car that is seriously overweight and underbraked? Why?

There have been a number of Corvair V8 conversions putting the V8 in the back seat. I
have no idea why anyone would bother with that either.

andys120 · October 2002

some cars seen to cry out for a V8 conversion....
The (Plymouth) Prowler comes to mind (unless you could fit a Viper V10-couldn't be any harder than a Corvair V12).

argent · October 2002

Well, he did at least TRY to upgrade the brakes with late-sixties vintage GM four-caliper discs in front and oversized finned aluminum drums. But it is a heavy piece, weight DISTRIBUTION not withstanding. A Jaguar V-12, despite its aluminum block and head, is a massive piece of metal in that overengineered British fashion, and it weighs 680 lbs. -- only a couple of pounds lighter than a Chevy 396/427 cast-iron big block. Owie. The original Corvair engine was not exactly light for its size (one of the reasons its handling in early form was so alarming was that the engine came out something like a hundred pounds heavier than it was supposed to), but it was nowhere near THAT heavy.

speedshift · October 2002

IIRC the Corvair six was supposed to be aluminum and that's what the suspension engineers were counting on.

As for why anyone would want to mid-engine a Corvair, I think a 327/350-hp or 427 Corvair would be a blast. I wanted to do that to my '65 but the fact I was 16 and penniless got in the way.

andre1969 · October 2002

...so I don't see why a V-10 wouldn't be possible in a Prowler!

carnut4 · October 2002

with a small block Ford [302], since it's the smallest and lightest, and might make more of a driver-but a small block Chev with aluminum heads would probably work too. I suppose someone will try it. A 426 Hemi? Wow-if you have pictures, please post 'em.
Although the new Turbo PT finally gives it the power it should have had in the first place.
Why do they always wait to bring out the engine power it deserves when they bring out a new model?

andre1969 · October 2002

...here's a website devoted to the PT Cruiser Hemi transplant...

http://www.hemicruiser.com/

If the Hemi is too much for you, they also offer a 318 or a V-10. Seems to me a V-10 would almost be more of a squeeze than the Hemi, since it's a longer block.

Considering that the Neon platform originally couldn't even take a 2.4, because it couldn't take that much torque, I'd love to know how much strengthening they had to do to get a Hemi or the other V-8's under there! I also wonder what kind of rear end they end up putting in?

One transplant I saw over the summer that I thought was kind neat...a 440 V-8 in an early '70's Dodge Colt! It was one of those little RWD hardtop coupes. I saw it at Carlisle, probably the all-Mopar event.

I've also heard that a common swap is to put a 318 or other Mopar smallblock under the hood of a Plymouth Sapporo/Dodge Challenger...those little Mistubishi-built hardtop coupes that were sold from around '79-93.

ndance · November 2002

but if I could snap my fingers and have a finished, well done engine conversion...I think I'd vote for one of the following:

510 with DOHC Nissan V6
BMW 3.0 CS w/small block Chevy
75-79 Nova 4dr. with 502 + Richmond 6 speed
(not really much of a swap, I expect 70-72 BBC Camaro stuff would bolt in, the smog guys might take offence, however).

all with upgraded cooling/brakes/seats/handling stuff/etc. I think the BMW would be especially cool but I have a feeling that there might be beaucoup clearance problems (I did look at one once with this in mind and noticed that those crafty Germans seem to burn up all the underhood space...a bit too much rust for my taste in this case).

chris396 · November 2002

The current issue of Sports Car Market has an ?80 Mercedes Benz 450SL convertible with a 426 Hemi in it.

Mr_Shiftright · November 2002

Well the Datsun 510 with a Japanese V-6 sounds like a great idea, because the car itself isn't worth too much and it could use a genetic transplant (Japanese to Japanese) and it wouldn't throw the car too far out of balance. The 510 is traditionally modified and raced anyway, so good choice there.

The BMW idea is, to me, an unfortunate choice because you ruin a potentially valuable car by putting in a type of industrial engine that really has no affinity for the genetic material of a BMW CS. The CS is very jewel-like, polished, sleek, and a small block V-8 is a big, tall, iron thing that is best for big, tough cars. I doubt it could fit in that rather pointy nose anyway.

The Nova idea also makes sense because the cars themselves have no value and so you could make a very nice American to American type of rod out of it--and actually increase its value if you do a good job.

I think a more logical transplant for a BMW CS, presuming you can find one that isn't ready to break in half due to rust, would be a more modern OHC I-6 from say a BMW 528.

andre1969 · November 2002

...that police forces nationwide mourned the loss of the Nova as a police car. For 1979, Chevy used the Malibu as the basis for its small police car, instead of the Nova. The Malibu was a better car in most respects, but I guess the Nova was just suited more to police duty!

I read this in a Mopar police car book. They said Chevy's decision to use the Malibu instead of the Nova made the Mopar lovers rejoice, because the Aspen/Volare squads would blow away a Malibu, but the Nova was much more formidable.

andys120 · November 2002

who had to chase down anything in an Aspen/Volare.

My old '70 Goat would out run most early 80s police cars but then so would any kid in a clapped out V8 70s Camaro.

ndance · November 2002

Isn't a Malibu of that era an X-body? I honestly don't know. For some reason I've always wanted one of the 75-79 350 4-speed 4-door F41 Novas (there are a few)...all they really lack is HP...which is easy to apply in this case.

Here's a quick example:

http://www.geocities.com/nova77sedan/nova/1977Concours4speed-700.JPG

BMW-wise, they don't strike me as valuable cars. In an era when 307 Camaro convertibles are worth more than early 911S's (why??!!) I see plenty of those coupes (no doubt with iron oxide aplenty) for fewer dollars than pretty crummy American iron. The opportunity to upset the BMW people would be golden but I expect there would be much in the way of dealing with steering and/or brake system clearance issues (this is assuming the compartment is even wide enough). For a reference point, the 2800CS I was looking at (which ran OK, had some weird surface rust, fairly beat interior) was $2500.

On the cop car front....a good, quick (440 maybe) Diplomat with a conversion to standard transmission might be the ticket (did those godawful Volare Roadrunners ever have manual transmissions?)...not bad looking, super plain, cheap. Smog guy problems once again.

The DOHC V6 Datsun thing has been done, but it is really a squeeze. Interesting results though, you get a low 13 second car with the engine from a luxury car (with the good behavior that implies).

About the only way to squeak through the big block/X-body concept in California (I would think) would be to get a class of 1975, 4 door (from the N.O.V.A.S. gang) and grab the engine and smog gear from a 454 or 455 of the same brand (whilst putting together something that runs decently under the covers), dealing with the carb that is legal might be an issue. I'm not sure which GM divisions still put big blocks in their cars those year (no doubt Pontiac did...was there a passenger car Chevy/454 in 1975?)

andre1969 · November 2002

...on which police version of the Aspen/Volare a particular department ordered. The fastest package was a 360 4-bbl that put out around 195 hp. I think it did 0-60 in 8.7 seconds and 0-100 in 22.8, although I'd have to look in my book to verify. The Malibu they were testing against did 0-60 in something like 9.1, I think, and 0-100 was something like 29 seconds.

After 1979 things started to go downhill bigtime. Sadly, no police car, at least not a sedan (I'm excluding Camaros, Grand Nationals, Mustangs, etc) would beat the '79 Aspen/Volare until the LT-1 Caprices of 1994!

Some police cars used the 318-4bbl instead of the 360-4, and it was a dog in comparison, only putting out 155 hp. This bumped to 165 for '81, and then 175 for '85. Some of 'em were even stuck with 318-2bbls or slant sixes!

Mr_Shiftright · November 2002

A nice BMW 3.0 CS coupe would be worth about $15,000. That's a pretty expensive car to cobble up with a V-8 conversion seems to me. It makes no more sense than putting a BMW 6 cylinder engine in a 1967 Camaro convertible, also worth about $15,000. Why would you do that, right?

andre1969 · November 2002

...from '78-83 was an A-body, rebadged as G- for '82 when the A-body Celebrity et al debuted. This generation of Malibu was essentially an Impala/Caprice with 8" removed from the wheelbase, and less overhang. I've seen them with 454's under the hood, so they can be hotrodded.

Would a 440 fit into a Diplomat? I thought the transverse-mounted torsion bars would get in the way. The 318-4bbl in my '89 Gran Fury is a fairly tight fit, compared to the other smallblocks I've had ('68 Dart, '79 Newport, '79 New Yorker). Any of those others would take a 440, but I don't know about the M-body.

ndance · November 2002

Not to get wrapped up around the axle on this, but it would be silly (of course) to butcher a nice CS. A not nice one? why not?

In the case of the Camaro convertible, assuming a non RS/SS car, my automatic temptation would be towards modernization (standable brakes, ZZ4 or BBC, etc.) rather than any return to correctness. There's obviously no point in putting a BMW I6 into the thing as it would run worse than the original (which is none too good).

carphoto · November 2002

There's an affliction that seems to strike a certain number of British car owners that I call the Cobra Syndrome. It's the propensity to want to stuff a V8 into a little British sports car under the belief that it can't be all that hard or expensive. I've seen it done right and I've seen it done wrong. Most of these people soon find out that it's not easy to do and even if they get the iron lump in there they discover that they have forgotten minor details like front suspension loading, brakes and extra stress on the driveline.

Maybe one of the wildest ones is the Bugeye Sprite with a 426 Hemi. I've only seen photos on the Net (can't find the URL right now) but it looks to be a well done piece. It must be a fearsome beast when the right pedal goes down hard.

argent · November 2002

Sweet Jesus, that's a nightmarish idea. One of the original rationales for the Cobra and Sunbeam Tiger conversions was that the Ford small block 260/289/302 was actually the same weight or slightly lighter than the ancient four-cylinder Brit engines. (What's a 289 weigh? A little over 500 lbs.?) A Hemi was NOT a lightweight engine. I think an all-iron 426 Hemi was in the neighborhood of 750 lbs., which is something close to 50% of the CURB weight of a stock Sprite. Talk about a 15-pound sledge on a three-foot handle...

Mr_Shiftright · November 2002

I think when it comes to stuffing Hemis into Sprites, we are in the realm of "theater" or "circus" or "entertainment". It's not about cars anymore.

carnut4 · November 2002

750-800 horsepower, 1300 pounds-throttle steer only!
I was at a cruise in once and there was a guy there with a 23 T-bucket roadster rod with a big block Chevy with a blower and 2 huge 4barrels on it. The engine was a 502 that had been thoroughly worked-all roller, balnaced, etc, etc. The best of everything. I asked him about the horsepower, guessing 500 or better. He told me it had been dynoed at 900+!! Good god, and there was hardly any weight there at all! Talk about a hammer.
He was giving demonstration/thrill rides for $10 on the long two lane country road close to where this cruise in was.
Heck, I was afraid to go. I asked if it could do backwards somersaults and end up on all fours.

ndance · November 2002

http://www.cars-on-line.com/74triumph8256.html

next best thing.

dgraves1 · November 2002

500 lbs for a small Ford? They can't be that heavy, can they? I thought a small block Chevy was only a little over 300.

andre1969 · November 2002

...here's a url that someone on my Mopar Mailing List compiled awhile back, that lists a lot of engine weights.

ftp://rohan.sdsu.edu/pub/mml/archive/Engine/engine-weight-fyi.txt

One thing that's deceptive though, is that some of the weights are just the bare block, some are the complete engine with heads, intake, everything, and some are anything in between.

This list does have the Ford 302 at 500 lb, the Mopar smallblock at 525 (the later 273/318/340/360 block, not the older 301/318/326/whatever block). The Chevy smallblock comes in as a porker, at 575!

Interesting, since the Mopar V-8 is bulkier than the Ford or Chevy. I've heard though, that the Chevy V-8 was such an inherently weak design though, that alot of afterthought beefing up had to go into it. If that's true, that might account for some of the weight.

Mr_Shiftright · November 2002

Yeah, about 500 lbs for your average V8 sounds right. A 300 lb cast iron V8 block would be pretty unlikely, if it were a long block.

The only V8 into 2-seater that I ever liked driving was the 289 Ford into a Mercedes 280SL. The car felt very much like a 450SL, which isn't exactly a ballerina, but it was quite driveable, decently quiet and looked stock from the outside. It was a masterfully well-done conversion also.

jaserb · November 2002

It makes the VW Beetle w/ 911 whale tail I saw the other day look completely tasteful. Head turner? Sure, since you generally turn your head to avoid getting puke all over yourself.

On the "crime against nature" scale of V8 conversions, though, I still think this one takes the cake (apologies to those who've already seen this) - it was at a local "cruise night"...

http://www.geocities.com/jason_and_lauren/porsche/

-Jason

rea98d · November 2002

Good lord, I would have spent a year's worth of rent riding in that thing. That has got to be wickedly fast!

speedshift · November 2002

The Buick aluminum V8 is around 300 pounds. The Chevy small block was the first thinwall casting and it was a lot lighter than any other 1955 V8 but later engines didn't need as much material in the block because of more precise casting techniques.

argent · November 2002

The original 1955 Chevy 265 was quoted at 531 lbs. (That was actually about 40 lbs. lighter than the old Blue Flame inline six, believe it or not.) The Chrysler LA-series smallblock (318/340/360) weighed about 540 lbs. I think the Ford 260/289/302 was slightly lighter than those, but still around 500 lbs. The Buick 215, all aluminum, weighed about 320 lbs., exceptionally light for that period; it was later replaced by the Buick 300/350 engine, which had similar architecture but all iron, which pushed it to around 470 lbs. That was the ballpark for all-iron, small block V-8s. The big blocks were heavier, of course. A Chevy 348/409 was 670 lbs. or so, 396/427 was about 690 lbs., while the massive Lincoln 430/462 engine was a whopping 750 lbs. Perhaps the lightest of the all-iron big blocks was Cadillac's 1964-1967 429, which was 595 lbs. (The later Caddy 472/500 was about 80 lbs. heavier than that.) Modern engines are a good bit lighter than that, of course, because they generally have aluminum heads, if not aluminum blocks...all that iron is heavy.

Mr_Shiftright · November 2002

Yeah, but the 215 is a dog of an engine, so whatever you have for a weight savings you lose in performance and efficiency. You might as well keep the original 4-banger as put a 215 into anything. Even with 30 years of refinements the engine was a dog in a Rover (appropriately).

argent · November 2002

Well, the Buick-Rover V-8 never had the same kind of potential as the Chevy and Ford small-blocks, and it certainly had teething pains, but was it really a dog? Granted, its power output in its 70s and 80s applications wasn't too impressive, but in those days the smogged Ford 302 dropped as low as 119 hp, and even into the early 90s a lot of 302s were only around 150 hp...so the 135 or so from the much smaller 3.5L doesn't seem so bad by comparison. Its days are clearly past -- with pushrods, no variable valve timing, and stretched to its maximum size limits (4.6L in the current Land Rover Discovery) it's not that smooth by current standards. But the same could be said of a lot of newer engines. And TVR, at least, managed to make something of a screamer of the thing. They got upwards of 350 hp from the engine, albeit at the cost of making it rather peaky.

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