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Forester Turbo in 1 year
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Comments
I'll be very surprised if the insurance for an XT is no more expensive than for a non-turbo Forester. I hope the difference is moderate.
-juice
That's certainly true of me - age 59. The only risk I present is cardiac arrest while whistling along at 70mph or so.
Bob, age 58—and who also wants a turbo!
Folks living at high elevations are going to love the power of the turbo Forester and Baja. Subaru should make some region-specific advertising for CO.
-B
-Bob
Ken
European models don't have this restriction. Current 2-liter turbo European Foresters can hit 125. The new North American XT 2.5 should easily make it into the 130s - except - what if Subaru has brain-lock and puts a governor on the new XT? How difficult is it to disable these governors?
-Brian
Second, it's my car. I'll decide how fast I want it to be able to travel.
Are you willing to pay full price for a 60" TV and have the outer 12" perimeter blocked off? Would you buy a 200-watt stereo amplifier with one or two channels disabled by some government bureaucrat? Would you happily pay full price for a six-shot .357 magnum revolver with 2 of its 6 chambers welded shut?
You're certainly free to waste your money; I don't choose to do so.
Most car buyers outside America get all of the performance their cars are capable of delivering. It is insulting that American buyers are forced to pay full prices and get what amounts to disabled vehicles. I haven't had a traffic citation or accident in more than 30 years, and it is unlikely that I will ever actually drive at 135mph, but I want my XT to be capable of delivering its full spectrum of performance. The only way I'll accept an arbitrary, governed maximum speed is if the government picks up the tab for a third of the car's cost representing potential performance that I am unable to access.
My question remains: Are Subaru owners who don't want shackled cars able to eliminate speed limiters on their vehicles?
I can't speak with certainty in this case, but usually disabling the speed governor requires an ECU flash/reprogramming. Many places that sell performance chips can do that.
I am usually a safety freak, but I can sympathize with you on this one. As long as it is not government-mandated, it feels ridiculous that the manufacturer would so disable a car. Of course, the politics of this is simply reversed: if just some don’t follow suit, it will become government-regulated. If/when that happens, the supreme court will decide that there has to be some mechanism to disable the limiter, because you have the right to buy whatever you want for a private track. What we don’t know is whether that mechanism will be cheaper and more easily available than the ECU reflash.
- D
Ken
"I thought it was drag that kept it from going over 107, but I guess that's not the case. I've gotten close, but never past 107 myself."
Ken, I've done a ton of online research lately about Foresters (I've never owned one before, but intend to buy an XT). The European ungoverned 2-liter nonturbo Foresters typically max out at 112-114mph. The only reason the MORE powerful U.S. 2.5 liter NA Forester will only reach 107 is the governor that Subaru puts on most American-market cars. Several of the U.S. magazine tests have indicated "governor limited" instead of "drag limited" when reporting the 107mph top speed of Foresters.
Obviously there is no such governor on the American-market WRX, so it is my hope that Subaru will also leave it off the XT. The speedo in the Chicago show car reads to 140, and based on the 125mph actual top speed of European 2-liter turbo XTs, I project that the U.S. XT should be capable of 133-135.
BTW - my area has six Subaru dealers. I'me getting quotes running all the way from straight MSRP to a low of $200 over invoice in writing(through one dealer's Internet sales rep), and I think I can get that last one down to $100 over. He says the exact car I want (silver 5-speed XT) will be in his first allocation next month. It has my name written all over it!!! All I have to do now is decide what port-installed extras I want and convince my wife that it's OK for ONE of our two cars to have a MT. She was driving a MT Subaru sedan in the 1970s when I met her, but she's become spoiled by automatics since then.
- Jack
I will likely proceed with my plan to buy an XT in the next few weeks, but I just finished a 4-hour test drive of a brand-new '03 5-speed X, and I'm left with mixed feelings. Steering was almost too light, but the cornering, steering response, braking, and general nimbleness were all at or better than expectation, and even its acceleration was reasonably good in all gears except 5th, which is much taller than 4th. The XT's turbo will fix that. So far, so good.
The ride quality was definitely on the firm side over road irregularities. This is OK with me, but my wife has a chronic bad back and might complain a bit.
But by far the least appealing aspect was the interior noise level. I'd heard that wind noise was an issue, but I noticed very little. On the other hand, tire (road) noise and engine noise were much higher than I expected. Conversation (or listening to the radio) at 65-75mph will not be pleasant or relaxing. I certainly wasn't expecting anywhere near Lexus-like interior silence, and I'm no fanatic about silence, but this '03 Forester was far from quiet. It was at least as loud inside as my wife's old '91 Dodge AWD Grand Caravan, which I've always considered at the high end of acceptability.
I'll probably still buy an XT for its versatility and high performance-per-dollar quotient, but the unexpected interior sound level is definitely going to diminish my satisfaction with the vehicle. I'd say that Subaru has a LOT of catching up to do in the areas of sound isolation and insulation - particularly with their recently-announced intent to move up-market. Comments?
You could try testing another Forester and adjust the pressures to within spec. I'd also suggest testing an XS as it is more closer to what the XT is (at least interior content-wise).
-Brian
http://www.prnewswire.com
Do your own search. I posted the actual announcement, but it was deleted due to copyright issues. I offer my apologies if I offended anyone by doing so.
-Bob
Thinking back on my test drive, I think you just might be right. Overinflation would explain several observations - including that I had to push extremely hard on curves to get any squeal from the tires at all, and then hardly any...rather unusual with OEM all-season tires. I wish I'd thought to check the pressures. I wouldn't be surprised if they were above 40psi. You've diminished my concern just a bit. Thanks.
Ken
Am I the only one out there with this problem? It seems the tilt wheel doesn't go up high enough, unless I'm doing something completely wrong...
I have a '98 and it seems quiet, but it depends on what you're used to. My friend Mike has an Impreza RS, MY2000, and called it a quiet as a limo. It's also a Lexus compared to my Miata.
Look at C&D noise levels - it was the quietest in two different comparisons of small SUVs. So for its class, it's quiet.
After getting out of a luxury car, it might not seem so, but look at the price. You can always add insulation those stereo places sell, you'll have huge piles of cash left over if you cross shop luxury SUVs like the FX45, which should offer roughly equal performance.
brady: was the seat ratcheted all the way up? The new ones work like VW seats. Lower them, then tilt the wheel all the way up, and try again. I'm about 6' and do not have any problems.
-juice
Not that I am looking forward to selling my Subaru and moving back to the USA, but all good things must come to an end. Fortunately, it looks like a new Forester Turbo could be waiting on me. Happy Trails, Steve.
-juice
I've read mentions of the 5MT being "improved" to handle the extra power of the XT engine, but I still have yet to see any official proof.
The Forester will lean through turns more, but I've also read that the recent 03 XS model was only a tad slower than a WRX in the slalom.
Ken
I think my mother's '98 Forester is a little different. I don't think her's has the up/down function on the seat. Same goes for the Baja - try to get in and out of that thing. Quite uncomfortable to say the least.
How are Subaru's as far as rattles & squeaks go? I know they're reliable as hell, but they don't seem to have that "solid" feel like when I close the door on my Passat.
Thanks again.
as for noises , my wife drives a audi A6 quattro with all the bells and whistles...it is remarkably easy to get into trouble on the interstate driving a car thats made for the autobahn....give me a little audible feedback from my tires and engine, please! i think it is a big help in gauging your car's response to road conditions, etc., when you're getting ready to pull out around a 70 foot tractor trailer rig on a 2 lane road .
185 kph is only about 113 mph. If not for the governors on non-WRX American Subarus, most of them would be able to reach that speed.
Passat is built on an Audi platform and is in a totally different price territory (4Motions are over $30 grand). The Jetta is closer in price, really. Still, look at crash tests, every Subie tested is a best pick. They're pretty solid.
A half-open window will rattle if you slam the door, but that's not necessarily an indication of how solid the structure is. For instance, the Forester got 5 stars in side impact tests, front and rear.
-juice
DaveM
Going to be the best sleeper to hit the market in years, tehe.
-B
They test a lot of new cars (pre-production prototypes) here. The current model Corvettes (C5's) were here for months screaming up and down the highway - going through a variety of tests. I think that Car & Driver Magazine published "spy photos" taken by one of my work mates years ago.
Cheers, Steve
for me, one of the biggest unknowns is comfort for long drives. several times a month, sometimes several times a week, i drive 6 to 12 hours in a single day, almost all of it on the interstate. the seat on the WRX seems to be plenty supportive on test drives...but what about six hours later? i drive my 1994 ford explorer with 140K miles on these long trips just because it has the premium electric seats with the pneumatic adjustable lumbar and lateral/thigh support...the seat on my wife's A6 is so hard after two hours my seat is hurting.
So, any testimonials from WRX drivers on long haul seat comfort? any late model Forester long haul comparisons? i really wont mind saving $6000, especially if im still smiling six hours later!
B
I'm surprised you find the A6 seats (is it a pre -98?) so hard - they are a lot more comfy than the seats in my 2000 Passat. I've liked the seats in the various 2003-2004 Foresters I've tried; nice height adjustment and lumbar adjustment.
Tom
I received a reply that the final specs are not yet available and to check back in two weeks. It doesn't seem to make sense given that XTs are arriving at dealer locations already.
Ken
The problem I have with the XT height adjustment is that as the seat is raised, it seems to tilt forward a bit. This isn't a problem for the backrest, which can then be readjusted - but the seat base winds up too "flat" when raised. It would have been much better to provide separate height adjustments for the front and rear of the seat base. Either that, or a single height adjustment plus a tilt adjustment. The Forester's seat bases are so short front-to-back that there is no thigh support at all when the seat base is too flat.
Anybody know how difficult it will be to unbolt a Forester's front seats and insert shims or spacers in the forward mounts to increase the tilt of the seat base?
I agree with you that hard info about the XT remains nearly nonexistent. I've already ordered mine, but I would have preferred to see at least a "first-drive" report in C&D or M/T or one of the other mags, if not a full road test. Subaru must really be playing this close to the vest.
Did you see my msg on the price I'll be paying for a first-allocation XT next month? $23,323 invoice plus $177 for Group 1C, $145 for Group 3B, and $200 for the column-mounted boost gauge - plus $100 markup. Total delivered price before license and title: $23,945 equipped exactly the way I want (with NO rear spoiler!).
I would have included leather and the sunroof if they were available with 5-speed, but I can't complain about my total price. Other dealers in my area wanted anywhere from $500 over invoice all the way up to several hundred over MSRP as "additional dealer margin".
The WRX made C&D's Ten Best two years in a row. The XT ought to provide nearly comparable performance, handling, and braking with an added dimension of practicality and everyday driveability. Think the Forester will take the WRX's place on next year's Ten Best?
- jack
That's a fantastic price -- more so for a brand new and highly anticipated model!
My local dealer had a very basic brochure on the XT, but only had the high level specs offered in the press release. However, I have to imagine that dealers already have more detailed information at this point. I saw someone post pictures over at NASIOC of XTs at a dealership. There's got to be service manuals available that go into the level of detail I'm looking for.
In any event, when are you supposed to get your XT? Please post your driving impressions when you get it! It would also be interesting if you could compare it to the WRX wagon as well.
Ken
Ive enlisted my co workers in the WRX wagon vs Forester XT debate...their spin: you bought your wife a new Audi A6 with every available option? you can buy yourself whatever you want! .....dont you wish it worked that way in real life "married with children"?
To be honest, I was amazed at the bid. This was the last bid I requested, and the dealer's internet sales rep came back with $200 over invoice. After one or two e-mails, he settled on $100 over. It was the most painless auto price negotiation I've ever experienced. I realize there's the behind-the-curtain 3% holdback, but even so I am very satisfied with the deal.
"My local dealer had a very basic brochure on the XT, but only had the high level specs offered in the press release. However, I have to imagine that dealers already have more detailed information at this point."
Not only dealers, who aren't talking (much), but also: Why didn't Subaru let journalists drive the car in time for published tests to be on the newstands by now? Not only have I not driven a car I'm soon buying, but none of the "experts" in whose opinions I place some reliance have written about how it drives, either. It does seem odd.
"In any event, when are you supposed to get your XT? Please post your driving impressions when you get it! It would also be interesting if you could compare it to the WRX wagon as well."
Should be here by mid-June, maybe a few days sooner. Unfortunately, it'll be about two months before I can comment on performance; I am a fanatic about gently and gradually breaking in a new car. I always keep cars for at least 100K miles, and I keep cars I really like even longer. My beloved early '79 RX7 (driven very hard once past break-in) went past 200K with virtually zero trouble. I might be driving it still except that it provided no place for our baby daughter.
With all the Forester's attributes, I can easily imagine putting 150K well-maintained miles on it over 15 years or so.
I won't be able to compare it to a WRX because the last Subaru I've driven (before recently testing an '03 X) was my wife's odd little sedan (GL?) in the '70s. However, I hope (and expect) the car mags to compare the WRX and XT for us!
That's my problem, too, although I don't sit quite as upright. The front seat cushions on the Forester are at least 3" less front-to-back than in my wife's Concorde. The other Forester seat issue is that I like to sit well back from the steering wheel, with my arms nearly out straight. In the Forester, the clutch travel is so long that I can't fully depress the clutch without moving the seat closer to the wheel than I'd like - and then the accelerator is several inches too close for right-leg comfort. I'll probably find a workable compromise, but unfortunately the driving position isn't ideal for me. However, I'll put up with quite a bit in exchange for the XT's other qualities.
"Ive enlisted my co workers in the WRX wagon vs Forester XT debate...their spin: you bought your wife a new Audi A6 with every available option? you can buy yourself whatever you want! .....dont you wish it worked that way in real life "married with children"?
I'm no [non-permissible content removed]-whipped wimp, but I also don't go out of my way to intentionally displease my wife. She's not thrilled that the XT will have a 5-speed because she has a bad back and constantly operating the clutch won't help. However, her Chrysler has an automatic, and my position is that it isn't necessary for BOTH of our cars to meet all of her preferences; the car I mainly drive should rightly tilt to my specs. There really will be no need for her to drive the XT anyhow unless we take it on long trips, when she might spell me, and then it'll be freeway driving - snick into 5th and cruise for hours, no shifting needed. Case closed.
I, on the other hand, have been grudgingly driving automatics for six years, and I'm dying to get back to a manual.
I wrote to each of the 6 Portland (OR) area dealers inviting bids. All but 1 replied, ranging from $500 over invoice to $300 over MSRP. I then went to the website of the non-responding dealer, found the link for his Internet sales rep, and asked for a quote. He came back with $200 over invoice, and we settled on $100 over. If you're near Portland and want a quote, I'll be glad to put you in touch. He's remarkably low-pressure, too. There are still many things that could go awry, but so far it's been the best of my many car-buying experiences.
The other shoe will probably drop when I ask for a trade-in value on our 1-owner '91 AWD Grand Caravan...I'm hearing that dealers aren't coming even close to Kelley Blue Book wholesale.
Jack -- I'd love to hear even your intial impressions during the break-in period. I'm sure the turbo will make a noticeable difference over the NA model (if you have driven one).
Ken
I'll post all observations, positive or otherwise. Having driven no recent Subarus prior to the XT announcement, I wangled a 4-hour test drive in a new '03 X 5-speed. It already delivers reasonably snappy performance. There are several grades on my drive to work that require my current vehicle to downshift from 4th to 3rd just to maintain speed. The X had no trouble holding speed even in 5th - so the XT ought to be a heckuva ride.
I recall your messages wondering what Subaru might have changed in the XT's suspension or transmission. Frankly, the '03 X I drove handled and braked so amazingly well that I don't know what they could do to improve it by much, other than maybe stickier tires. I saw reviews indicating that Foresters understeer (which I dislike), and so I thought I might have to swap in a stiffer rear stabilizer bar - but on dry pavement I was unable to provoke any understeer at all in the borrowed X. Maybe it's worse in the wet, where lower peak lateral loads don't bring the stabilizer bar(s) into play as much.
As for the 5-speed box, I have no idea whether the standard Forester unit can cope with the XT's 40% greater torque, so I hope the gearbox gets beefed up - and I also hope the 4th gear ratio becomes a bit taller to reduce the large span between 4th and 5th. It's really too bad the STi's 6-speed isn't an available option. Think about it: They could provide a stump-pulling 1st gear (effectively taking the place of a dual-range transfer case).
The shift linkage on the X I drove felt a bit vague. I've read about quick-shift replacement levers for Imprezas. Some of them come with a harder pivot bushing that is claimed to reduce the rubbery imprecision in the linkage. I don't need the quick-shift's shorter throws, but I'd like to see whether putting the harder bushing into the stock linkage might bring crisper shifts.
- Jack, who can barely wait...