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Forester Turbo in 1 year
Hi people,
I'm considering buying a 2003 Forester or waiting 1 year for the Turbo model. Can I get some opinions? I live in Boulder Co, and need some kind of car now. I drive safely- and safety is my priority, not speed, so I wonder if in certain specific situations if I'll have more lattitude with the turbo model such as: when I'm merging onto the highway, or when I'm the second car about to make a left-hand turn when the light turns green and have a split second to do it, or a split second to weave through traffic. Will I do better in these 0-20 or 20-65 mph situations with a turbo with regard to my quick response and therefore safety? The flip side is will the turbo display somewhat of a lack of control and therfore be counterproductive toward safety- not to mention possibly overheat sometimes and be a mechanical burden? Is the current Subaru good, or lacking in such response?
Finally, if it seems that I should wait a year before making that big purchase is it best to a. lease for 1 year until then b. just buy a new Forester and trade up c. buy a used and trade up. Safety-wise the 03 is clearly better than the prior models, I think, however, I wonder if I'd take more of a "bluebook" hit by not going with a used model temporarily?
Thanks so much folks, you know quite a bit on this board
Best wishes
Steve
I'm considering buying a 2003 Forester or waiting 1 year for the Turbo model. Can I get some opinions? I live in Boulder Co, and need some kind of car now. I drive safely- and safety is my priority, not speed, so I wonder if in certain specific situations if I'll have more lattitude with the turbo model such as: when I'm merging onto the highway, or when I'm the second car about to make a left-hand turn when the light turns green and have a split second to do it, or a split second to weave through traffic. Will I do better in these 0-20 or 20-65 mph situations with a turbo with regard to my quick response and therefore safety? The flip side is will the turbo display somewhat of a lack of control and therfore be counterproductive toward safety- not to mention possibly overheat sometimes and be a mechanical burden? Is the current Subaru good, or lacking in such response?
Finally, if it seems that I should wait a year before making that big purchase is it best to a. lease for 1 year until then b. just buy a new Forester and trade up c. buy a used and trade up. Safety-wise the 03 is clearly better than the prior models, I think, however, I wonder if I'd take more of a "bluebook" hit by not going with a used model temporarily?
Thanks so much folks, you know quite a bit on this board
Best wishes
Steve
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Comments
I tested 2003 WRX Turbo and found it way to light for the turbo. I had the same point like you are, safety comes first. (Note that Forester turbo will have identical turbo as WRX). So I bought 2003 Forester XS Premium with AT. Driving on California freeways with its uphill entrances sometimes take a split second delay, but I am always able to enter the freeway traffic with a speed of 50 MPH or even higher. Engine of current Forester is nice and cruising on freeway is easy. Driving at 70 MPH is a pleasure.
I took my Forester for a few time already to Lake Tahoe (about the same alttitude as Denver, CO) and never had problem. Engine was rev at 3500 RPM with 4 adults and 1 child on board, plus about 100 lbs of luggage.
Hope this will help you in making a right choice. Good luck. Leo
Forester turbos overseas have had re-tuned WRX engines, with better down-low power, but less maximum horsepower. There also a persistent rumor of a 2.5 turbo that may go in the Forester.
Bob
A small turbo, like the 2.0l in the WRX, may lag a bit and actually make a heavier Forester less safe than a 2.5l in quick response situation. A turbo has to spool up, you need a load and revs to make power.
We're hoping for a 2.5l light-pressure turbo, and that would be perfect. In that case I'd say wait, but forced induction works wonders at altitude, and you're in Colorado!
The turbo should arrive in June, it's not worth buying a new car to keep for 7 months. Buy a beater, or something that could become your 2nd car next year.
If you decide against a turbo, get an XS model for the rear LSD and rear disc brakes with EBD, for added safety. All models have ABS, AWD, and side air bags that even protect from head injuries.
I love my '98 Forester, and I keep saying I'll get a turbo when they come out, but it'll be hard to part with mine.
-juice
Thanks, I'm grateful for your feedback. Believe it or not I wouldn't even want to be in a vehicle without side airbags, so which would be less expensive, just buying an 03 Forrester and trading up to a Turbo- that's if it seems like the right Turbo, or leasing? How much would each cost for 1 year- the loss in cash I'd take selling a 1 yr. old 03 Forrester if I decide to trade up to an 04, vs. leasing 1 year and turning it in? Do I get from you people that the 03 will be adequate for most in city and merging situations?
thanks
steve
I don't understand about forced induction- are you implying that because of the altitude even the lighter 2.0 turbo would be effective in colorado- or that a non-turbo engine would be fine here as a result of that? The bottom line is that is the currently designed Forrester going to do fine in the situations I delineated anyway..I don't pass very much on the highway, It'll be more city driving, though boulder has many incity expressways where you'll drive 55, and also merging? Also, in an article recently appearing here from somone who writes for car magazines and takes photos, didn't she imply the turbo wouldn't be available until late 03 or early 04..are you fairly certain I could purchase one by June?
Thanks again
Steve
-Dennis
Thankyou for that feedback. Can I assume that you had mechanical/repair difficulty with your turbo? Is this something that happens with them frequently? I wonder how the existing Forester Turbos have fared outside of this country..it brings me back to the first point- is a Turbo
going to be a plus for normal driving situations, or not really, and in fact potentially cause problems?
Thanks again..this is influencing whether I pull the trigger any day on the purchase
Steve
Or get a basic X model for about $20 grand or so, that'll probalby only lose $3 grand in resale in a year. An XS Premium, for about $24 grand, will probably lose $4-5 grand in value. Of course this depends on the deal you get now.
My '98 was purchased for $19.2k, and I see current prices 4 years later for $10-12K or so. So I think Leo's numbers are high. Maybe $6-8 grand off MSRP after a year.
Turbos have a blow-off valve that let off an excess pressure, you even hear a "PSST" when you shift. At altitude, the air is thinner, so the turbo makes use of more of that pressure, since more thin air will fit. You'll hear less of a "psst" but not lose any power.
A normally aspirated engine will be gasping. A 165hp Forester may feel more like a 125hp Forester. Which will still get you up that hill, just don't plan on passing much.
-juice
They have 2 2002 Ls for $19k. That's just about what they cost new, though I'm sure they'd negotiate down a little. They also have a bunch of S models for $21-22k. Again, that's close to their original value.
Keep in mind some of those might be dealers, private party sales will be less.
-juice
For example, one problem on old turbos was the coking of oil. When you stopped the car after a hard drive, the oil would just sit in the turbo instead of circulating. The turbo in the WRX has coolant circulating even when the car is turned off.
It's hard to speculate on the Forester turbo's power since we don't know how it will be tuned for the U.S. market. Try http://www.scoobynet.co.uk/bbs/ for a UK perspective.
-Dennis
The clutch on 2002 WRXs was iffy, but it got a force-limiting valve for 2003 that should resolve that, and I hear a new design will come next year.
-juice
We appreciate that you took the time to give us your comments. We will forward them to our Product Planning Department for their future consideration. In the past, input from our owners has been helpful in initiating changes to our newer models. We hope to continually improve our products and appreciate your recommendations.
Thanks again for your interest.
Best wishes,
John J. Mergen
Subaru of America, Inc."
I put a shorter version of this on another board (hi atexieira, aka juice)--what do you all make of it? After reading the UK reviews, I just don't want to wait!
Bob
here's hoping
This looks promising though:
"However, with the other model lines getting more power, it seems as if it would only be a matter of time before the Forester model line gets more power. "
-Dennis
I asked them to put me on the mailing list if/when such a vehicle should come onto the market...
Also, I agree that for high altitude a turbo is great (I lived in Denver for a year), and most manufacturer's turbos are very reliable these days (including Subaru and Audi/VW, for example).
- D
However, do you feel that the current 2003 is reasonably quick for merging and getting though traffic in daily driving situations
Or will I have to hesitate a bit- again I don't drive fast, but want enough latitude not to compromise safety..I'm not "power hungry"- actually a novice driver. Also, since I only drive automatic, would a turbo not be viable anyway?
Thanks so much
Steve
Thanks
STeve
Are you able to take the kind of test drive where you can really put it through it's paces? I have two dealers about a half hour away that just hand you the keys.
It's tough to shop for a car that's not even out yet and we don't know the specs of.
-Dennis
The segment got hot and now power ranges from 140-215, with Subaru in the middle, but weighing less than most, so it's better than average.
-juice
I own an '03 X 5spd. Enough power? It depends on a few things. What have you been driving? Are you a bigger person? Do you live at high altitude or on the flats of America?
I live in the Midwest. I'm a relative lightweight at 160 and what I carry daily usually does not exceed another hundred pounds or so. I drive about 500 miles each week with ~400 miles spend on the highway. I prefer to live in the left lane, cruising between 75-80mph when possible (law enforcement related).
I've rarely wanted for more juice under the hood for daily means. If you're nervous about power, keep the rev's high when needed for those short moments when you need it. The only times I seriously wish for more power is when sliding through a particular right-hand turn on wet days - but you can't have it all. Okay, I'm wrong (Forester Turbo).
pnassmac
However, the Subie has MUCH more (i.e. some) torque. The Miata's torque peaks at a sky-high 5500rpm, so caught in the wrong gear, it's a slug. The Subie never gets caught like that.
Also, with the A/C on, the Miata becomes a Geo Metro. The Subaru is hardly affected.
So it's very driveable, the boxer makes good every day accessible torque. An autobahn stormer it ain't.
-juice
It is widely rumored that Subaru has a 2.5 turbo just sitting on the shelf, waiting to find a home in some vehicle.
Bob
So maybe they couldn't make the blower reliable enough.
-juice
Bob
You hear the official Subaru line that the H6 does not leaving room for a 5 speed, but I don't buy it. The 6 speed from the STi could handle the H6's torque, and I bet it fits.
-juice
A Subaru salesman made the following admission to me- The turbo is expected out late in the third quarter of 2003, it would be a 2.0 yielding
200 horsepower and would be approximately $26,000.00. Do you think that engine would take longer from a standstill than the current Forester to spool up, but be quicker on a merge?
Steve
Steve
I like that CRV I drove yesterday but it didn't have the power I've become addicted to.
I'd hate to spend the money on an LL Bean just to get decent power because I don't like the Outback wagon all that much.
I admit the Premium Edition Forester comes in butt-ugly colors but I really like the sunroof and the Forester's updated interior. If only they came in that blue the XS does.
But a 2.5 turbo Forester? Perhaps in different colors than the premium models? I would be in heaven.
Heaven, it seems, will have to wait.
How much will it cost do you think? A LOT more or just a little or even the same? Any ballpark ideas? If I put this off for 7 months or so I REALLY want to know because I dread another winter in my Saab.
Thanks!
However, please let SOA know that many of us won't buy it if it is an automatic transmission, only. Just look at the sales ratio of the WRX manual vs. turbo. Besides, a turbo-auto combination is not that drivable: it accentuates the turbo lag and makes it difficult to maintain on boost. Even in a 2.5 turbo (although, admittedly, to a lesser degree). Lastly, a 2.5 automatic turbo negates all the fuel consumption advantages the turbo offers.
If they don't make it clear what engine it is going to have, and what transmissions will be available by the beginning of next year, they are going to lose a lot of customers. I am not going to wait until summer or fall, just to find out there is no way I will buy that thing.
- D
The fuel advantage of the manual WRX is about 1 mpg over the manual. :-)
They would probably use the Sportshift (although that doesn't help the torque convertor issue).
-Dennis
manual WRX
Not sure if that 1mpg difference is a real world figure. You get the best mileage when accelerating with wide-open throttle at low rpm. That is basically impossible to do with an automatic transmission. At any rate, you also lose mileage because of the 2.5 vs. 2.0. The new 2.0l turbo in the JDM Forester turbo with "active valve control" supposedly gets better than 30mpg in some Japanese mixed duty cycle. Maybe they can work some magic, but I doubt you can get those figures from a 2.5 turbo. I guess you can't have it all.
The current clutch and manual transmission is probably an issue, but then in some countries they sell the B4 with a manual transmission.
- D
Somewhere on the internet (epa.gov maybe?) I read how they measure mpg's. On a dyno at about 20 mph, but that's another topic. :-)
edit - In case anyone is interested:
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/info.shtml#estimates
"...The vehicles are driven by a professional driver under controlled laboratory conditions, on an instrument similar to a treadmill...
... The test used to determine the city fuel economy estimate simulates an 11-mile, stop-and-go trip with an average speed of 20 miles per hour (mph)... The maximum speed is 56 mph.
[for highway]
The test simulates a 10-mile trip and averages 48 mph... The maximum speed is 60 mph..."
No wonder people complain when they don't get the mpg's listed on the sticker. :-)
-Dennis
http://drive.fairfax.com.au/content-new/news/general/2002/11/27/FFX6WVF309D.html
which makes me hopeful for the upcoming US Turbo Forester. The above article also mentions that the mileage of the *manual* WRX has been improved.
- D
But my salesman said the same thing. 200hp and 2.5 liters. Legacy too, I hope. And Baja.
Even with auto, if it has Shiftronic, I might consider it. Maybe I'm saying that because we just had a painful 10 hour drive that should have taken 5, and my knees are still sore.
WRX is getting that newly tuned engine, plus clutch revisions. In a way, Subaru may choose to do auto only on the Forester because so many WRX owners do clutch drops that damage the drivetrain. I guarantee you that the WRX is the model with the most warranty claims and cost.
-juice
"...Though the redesigned (2003) Forester is still a newbie, a turbocharged version is widely rumored for the near future, perhaps even as an early-'04 entry. Subaru has sold a "blown" Forester for several years, but never in the U.S. If a turbo model does come here, and assuming it's similar to the European version (which it should be), look for around 250 hp and a like number of foot-pounds of torque from a retuned version of the hot Impreza WRX "flat-four." You can also expect "aero" lower-body skirts, a working air scoop on the hood, and an uprated suspension with 17-inch wheels and performance tires. The Forester Turbo should be good for 0-60 mph in well under 7 sec. Further out, facelift is being whispered for all 2006 Foresters..."
I dunno if 17" wheels will make it to the US market, either.
-juice
Bob
I have old and new issues of their buyer's guide (handy to get invoice prices for a particulary time and model year), and the review text is the same, so it doesn't make sense.
-juice
Ed
The Jetta wagon is probably a closer match for the cargo space of the Forester, since it's squared off. But those can get pricey and don't offer AWD here in the US.
That pushes you up to a Passat 4Motion or an A6 Avant, both over $30 grand.
I do think it's great that Audi offers AWD on all their models. Kudos to them. VW should, too.
-juice
Ed
There are lots of pictures here with foresters that have what looks like a turbo. That hood scoop looks an awful lot like the ones on the WRX to me. I think the styling on the models in the pictures is VERY nice.
http://www.subaru.co.jp/forester/movie/menu_movie.html
Thanks ben10!
Contact: Contact: Rob Moran: 856-488-8615
Larkin Hill: 310-763-0929
Subaru of America, Inc.
Subaru Plaza
P.O. Box 6000
Cherry Hill, NJ 08034-6000
856.488.8500
www.media.subaru.com
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
CHICAGO, Feb. 12, 2003 – Subaru of America, Inc. today introduced Forester 2.5 XT, a new higher-performance version of its popular Forester sport-utility vehicle (insert PR Newswire photo link here). Powered by a 210-horsepower turbocharged and intercooled 2.5-liter boxer engine, Forester 2.5 XT adds a unique new driving element to the small SUV segment. As with all Subaru models, Forester 2.5 XT comes equipped exclusively with standard full-time All-Wheel Drive. The new model will arrive in Subaru showrooms this summer.
Forester 2.5 XT is the first model in the small-SUV segment to emphasize such a high level of refined performance -- until now, sport-oriented models were reserved for the luxury SUV category. The increased performance in the 2.5 XT model enhances sporty driving while fully preserving the "Best of Both Worlds" crossover SUV design approach.
Forester blends positive SUV attributes such as a command driving position and interior versatility with the comfort and excellent driving dynamics of a passenger car. A responsive 4-wheel independent suspension, variable-ratio power rack-and-pinion steering and 16-inch wheels and tires make Forester 2.5 XT equally adept at taming twisty back roads and absorbing the bumps of an off-pavement trail.
Spirited Performance for Everyday Driving Pleasure
The Forester 2.5 XT is powered by a 2.5-liter horizontally opposed engine that produces 210 horsepower at 5,600 RPM and 235 lb.-ft. of peak torque at just 3,600 RPM. The Subaru Active Valve Control System (AVCS) variable valve timing system enhances power at all engine speeds. The turbocharged engine offers outstanding performance at high altitudes, where changes in atmospheric pressure adversely affect the power output of naturally aspirated engines.
The 2004 Forester 2.5 XT is available with a standard 5-speed manual transmission or an optional new 4-speed Direct Controlled Electronic Automatic Transmission. This advanced transmission electronically enhances shift operations for quicker, smoother shifts and better performance. Models equipped with the 5-speed manual transmission use the Subaru Hill Holder clutch, which helps make starting off on an incline easier and safer.
The Forester 2.5 XT is equipped with 4-wheel disc brakes and -- like all Subaru models -- a sophisticated 4-channel / 4-sensor Anti-lock Brake System (ABS). The Electronic Brake-force Distribution (EBD) feature enhances braking performance and stability through optimized brake force distribution between the front and rear wheels.
Sophisticated and Sporty Design
The functional hood scoop, body-color side cladding and a natural aluminum finish and body-color mounts on the standard roof rails immediately identify the 2004 Forester 2.5 XT. The 2.5 XT is further distinguished from other Forester models by specific 6-spoke, 16-inch alloy wheels with 215/60R16 raised black letter tires, body-color door handles and a single-outlet chrome tailpipe.
Safety Leadership
The new-generation Forester achieved the highest possible rating ("good") for crashworthiness when subjected to a 40-mph frontal offset crash test by the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety (IIHS), also earning the IIHS "best pick" designation. The first-generation Forester had also achieved these ratings. Subaru Forester meets all Federal passenger car safety standards.
The standard array of Supplemental Restraint Systems (SRS) includes a dual-stage deployment passenger front airbag and front seat head/chest side impact airbags. Also standard are upper-trim head impact protection and front seatbelt pretensioners with force limiters. Front-seat active head restraints help minimize whiplash injury in a rear-end collision.
Subaru of America, Inc. is a wholly owned subsidiary of Fuji Heavy Industries Ltd. of Japan. Headquartered near Philadelphia, the company markets and distributes Subaru vehicles, parts and accessories through a network of nearly 600 franchised dealers across the United States.