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The New 5W-20 grade - Good or Bad for your engine
americanflag
Member Posts: 400
5W-20 grade oil, and Mobil 1 has a synthetic 0W-20 on the way in March 2003. Some say 5W-20 is too thin to protect the engine, and that the manufacturers are recommending it because it improves gas mileage slightly. On the other hand, I have heard the opinion that the thinner oil gets into the cylinders of these engines faster and better than a heavier grade would, and Ford says it will void the warranty if you use a grade other than 5W-20 when this grade is called for. What are your opinions?
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But I reccomend to my customers that they follow Honda's reccomendations. I'm sure they know what they are doing!
The owners manual is now regarded as just a guide, not a bible. After confronting a Ford Customer Service Rep I received 50% of my cost as their "goodwill" gesture.
Honda is doing it for similar reasons. Honda as a company has always been a leader in fuel economy and emissions technology. It's part of their core business values. So the use of 5W-20 fits perfectly into their global corporate image.
I'm sure the product quality of the 5W-20's is fine. But there is no long term, real world proof that it will protect an engine over the long haul. Oil weights like 5W-30, 10W-30 and 15W-40 have been tested and proven over the years.
Besides, its not like Ford redesigned all their engines to work best with 5W-20, is it? The 4.6's and 5.4's and 3.0 Duratec's and 2.0 Zetec's were running just fine on 5W-30 and 10W-30. Now all of a sudden they can only run 5W-20? I ain't buyin' it unless I see documented proof of the engine mods.
Far as I'm concerned, after warranty the vehicle is mine and running thin "CAFE" rated oils is much further down on my "to do" list than running thicker "ENGINE PROTECTING" oil is. Warranty period is a very short part of the life of vehicles that I have owned/currently own.
A person who leases a vehicle is much less concerned with longterm protection than a person who expects at least 200k miles, mfgrs know that leases make a high percentage of vehicles now driving around...they also know that most people don't keep vehicles for that long (due to wrecks/trade-in every 2 years, whatever the reason).
Each of us has our own priorities...
Happy holidays!
Rando
I saw it over at www.fordcontour.org if you are interested in looking at it.
I posted the text of it over at www.mpvclub.com
Bottom line, this tells me it probably has nothing to do with closer tolerances and everything to do with better fuel economy.
FWIW,
TB
02-1-9 Engine Oil - Oil Recommendations
Page: 1/2
Article No.
02-1-9
01/21/02
ENGINE - ENGINE OIL - RECOMMENDED
APPLICATIONS FOR SAE 5W-20 AND SAE 5W-30
MOTOR OILS - GASOLINE AND FLEXIBLE FUEL
VEHICLES ONLY
FORD:
1992-2002 CROWN VICTORIA
1993-1994 TEMPO
1993-1997 THUNDERBIRD
1993-2002 ESCORT, MUSTANG, TAURUS
1995-2000 CONTOUR
1998-2002 ESCORT ZX2
2000-2002 FOCUS
1993-1996 BRONCO
1993-1997 AEROSTAR
1993-2002 E SERIES, F-150, RANGER
1995-2002 WINDSTAR
1997-1999 F-250 LD
1997-2001 EXPLORER
1997-2002 EXPEDITION
1999-2002 SUPER DUTY F SERIES, SUPER DUTY F-53 STRIPPED CHAS.
2000-2002 EXCURSION
2001-2002 ESCAPE
LINCOLN:
1991-2002 TOWN CAR
1993-1998 MARK VIII
1993-2002 CONTINENTAL
2000-2002 LS
1998-2002 NAVIGATOR
MERCURY:
1992-2002 GRAND MARQUIS
1993-1994 TOPAZ
1993-1997 COUGAR
1993-1999 TRACER
1993-2002 SABLE
1995-2000 MYSTIQUE
1999-2002 COUGAR
1997-2001 MOUNTAINEER
This article is being republished in its entirety to update the vehicle models, engines and years affected.
NOTE PLEASE REFER TO THE VEHICLE APPLICATION LIST LATER IN THIS TSB FOR A COMPLETE LIST OF VEHICLES AFFECTED BY THIS TSB.
ISSUE
Ford Motor Company now recommends SAE 5W-20 viscosity grade for servicing most gasoline and flexible fueled vehicles.
ACTION
All 2001 and 2002 vehicles where SAE 5W-20 is specified should be serviced at the recommended oil change intervals using SAE 5W-20. This oil is an improved formulation to improve fuel economy.
Testing has validated this viscosity grade can be used in many previous model year vehicles. It is recommended ALL vehicles on the following Vehicle Application Listing be service with SAE 5W-20.
All 2001-2002 vehicles other than those listed in the "Exception 2001 Vehicles" or "Exception 2002 Vehicles" chart are being filled with SAE 5W-20 motor oil at the factory and should also be serviced with SAE 5W-20 oil.
02-1-9 Engine Oil - Oil Recommendations
Veh. App. Listing Approved For SAE 5W-20 Motor Oil
^ 1993-1996 1.9L Escort/Tracer
^ 1995-2000 2.0L Zetec Contour/Mystique
^ 1999-2002 2.0L Cougar
^ 1997-2002 2.0L Escort/Tracer
^ 1998-2002 2.0L Escort ZX2
^ 2000-2002 2.0L Focus
^ 2001-2002 2.0L Escape
^ 1993-1997 2.3L Ranger
^ 1993-1994 2.3L Mustang
^ 1993-1994 2.3L Tempo/Topaz
^ 1998-2001 2.5L Ranger
^ 1995-2000 2.5L Contour/Mystique
^ 1999-2002 2.5L Cougar
^ 2001-2002 3.0L 4V Escape
^ 1996-2001 3.0L 4V Taurus/Sable
^ 1993-2002 3.0L (Vulcan) Aerostar/Ranger,
^ Taurus/Sable (Flexible Fuel and Gas)
^ 1995-2000 3.0L (Vulcan) Windstar
^ 1993-1994 3.0L (Vulcan) Tempo/Topaz
^ 2000-2002 3.0L 4V Lincoln LS
^ 1995-2002 3.8L Windstar
^ 1993-1997 3.8L Taurus/Sable,
^ Thunderbird/Cougar, Continental
^ 1994-2002 3.8L Mustang
^ 2002-2002 3.9L 4V Lincoln LS
^ 1997-2002 4.2L (SPI) F-150 (under 8500 GVW
only), E-Series
^ 1996-2002 4.6L 2V Mustang
^ 1992-2002 4.6L Crown Victoria/Grand Marquis
^ 1991-2002 4.6L Town Car
^ 1994-1997 4.6L 2V Thunderbird/Cougar
^ 1996-2002 4.6L 4V Mustang Cobra
^ 1995-2002 4.6L 4V Continental
^ 1993-1998 4.6L 4V Mark VIII
^ 1997-2002 4.6L 2V Triton F-150/250 (under 8500
GVW only), E-Series, Expedition
^ 1993-1999 4.9L E-Series, F-Series
^ 1993-1995 5.0L Mustang/Mustang Cobra
^ 1993-1993 5.0L Thunderbird/Cougar
^ 1997-2001 5.0L Explorer/Mountaineer
^ 1993-1996 5.0L E-Series, F-Series, Bronco
^ 2000-2002 5.4L Excursion
^ 1998-2002 5.4L 2V/4V Navigator
^ 1997-2002 5.4L 2V F-1501250 (under 8500
GVW only), Expedition, E-Series, E-350
Chassis/RV/Cutaway
^ 1993-1997 5.8L F-Series, Bronco
^ 1993-1996 5.8L E-Series
^ 2000-2002 6.8L Excursion
^ 1997-2002 6.8L E-Series, E-350
Chassis/RV/Cutaway
^ 1999-2002 6.8L Super Duty F-Series 250
HD/350/450/550 Motorhome
^ 1993-1998 7.5L All Vehicles
NOTE FOR 1993 THROUGH 1998 MODEL YEAR FFV USE XO-10W30-FFV.
NOTE THE "EXCEPTION 2001-2002 VEHICLES" SHOULD BE SERVICED WITH SAE 5W-30 MOTOR OIL
Has there ever yet been a case in which a car owner has been refused warranty coverage in a circumstance of the customer not using the prescribed oil? I suggest that the next case will be the first case.
I think it's likely that with improvements in manufacturing technology that tighter tolerance engines can be produced, thus allowing a thinner oil to be used.
Until it's proved otherwise, I'd trust the owners manual.
I'm not sure your tolerance argument really holds water (or 5W20)
Now, I'm sure you will be fine using this oil under normal conditions for 100K miles.
But then I'm not normal, LOL
TB
seems when we figured out the answers,ford changed the questions.
The Ford shop supervisor I talked to yesterday told me that he would predict the eventual demise of non-blended, non-synthetic mineral oils in the IC engine marketplace. I'll bet he's right. Now, my opinion is based on the concept that we include the new SL hydrocracked products in the "blended" term. It's time for us to start using up our stocks of SJ-- use it or lose it, as they say.
I had 10W-30 in my Ford 4.6L engine at first, then changed to 5W-20. The difference is noticeable. The engine runs louder and more harsh. It literally sounds and feel as if it is not being lubricated as well. That is pretty hard to argue with day after day.
Maybe Ford will be happy if I just get past 36,000 miles from my engine for the sake of the warranty. But I want the engine to go 200,000 or more. I hope the CAFE people are thinking about all the landfills these cars are going to take up after they are retired after a short, difficult life. How is that for the environment?
It is not good enough for Ford to say it won't hurt the engine. I would like to know 5W-20 is AS GOOD or BETTER for the engine's protection as a heavier grade oil.
The problem is, in 3-5 years we will be able to read these boards and see if the 5W-20 worked or not. If we read then that everyone is complaining about short engine life using 5W-20, we will know the answer. Right now it just feels like guess work. I hope it is not Honda's or some other corporations new idea for planned obsolescence of a product. What a great way to increase new car sales, decrease the car's life...
******
A simplified view of a particular pair of oil weights is, that you start with REAL 5 weight oil and then put a quart of it in each of a pair of containers, A & B. Now, put elastomer molecules in container A such that when the oil in A is hot, it will cause that quart of oil to have the characteristics of 30 weight, and in container B put elastomers to cause it to act like 20 weight oil, when B is heated up. Both are made from 5 weight oil that has received an additive package to alter the hot characteristics of each. Is this not a pretty good view of the difference between 5W-30 and 5W-20 motor oils?
if you don't trust the additives to protect you longer than the old 1000-mile rule of thumb back when oil was oil, pistons were pistons, and you could use the same rims on Plymouths and Chevies but had to use Ford rims on Fords, you change more often to get those sick, weak-kneed additives out of there.
if you don't trust the BASE OIL, the 5w part of the equation, the general rule at this point in recorded history
if you don't trust the SYNTHETIC base oil, shine up your thumb, it will get a lot of use at the side of the road, and you want it real pretty as you'll be waving it at all the cars going by.
used to be in the late 70s, there were serious questions about whether you could use the "new" oil in 7-liter DDA diesels, because there was no more CC cetane-rated SAE oil. Lots of SG/CD oil, but no straight CC oil. this has been sorted out before, and The Industry Decreed that SG.CD was just fine and didn't kill any warranties still in force. Drivers used to getting a quarter-million miles before the sleeve and ring jobs got 'em.
as always, consider your driving conditions. if you are on the road and towing, you are running hotter under load, and may want to change oil more frequently per your towing instructions, etc. I don't think you want to put 50-weight racing oil in your DOHC 2003 engine calling for 5w-20.
remember, if the thing fails two miles out of warranty due to total internal failure, and you maintained according to the owner's manual's more severe-service rating, and you can PROVE it in a court of law, you will likely win a lawsuit. that can't be said by dragging in a bunch of printed pages from the Edmunds board, your kids as character witnesses, and the weekly supermarket tabloid article that said Notradamus predicted the devil's oil would stop mankind cold.
Perhaps the answer lies in territory parallel to the situation years ago when 10W-30 began replacing 10W-40, and rumors had it, if not warranty provisos, that GM would cast you to the wolves if your engine blew up while running the evil 10W-40 instead of the corporate preferred 10W-30.
I swear my engine sounds like it has 6 qts of black water in it instead of oil! How can this be good?
Seriously, how can 5W-30 be bad for an engine that calls for 5W-20? When I had the 10W-30 in the engine it sounded much quieter and smoother. Ford must have a concern though or I don't think they would not threaten the warranty.
"...how can 5W-30 be bad for an engine that calls for 5W-20?"
My major concern is that the consumer is giving up a lot of engine longevity so that some manufacturers can appease an overzealous government mandate. I suspect that the motor companies are getting a boost in CAFE by using the lighter oil, and if they ever acknowledge that publicly, it will likely complicate their ability to pacify the DOT. If that is not the case, then why don't we see convincing statements from the auto makers telling us all about the wonderful discovery that actually protects the engine even better than the 5W-30, while giving a slight MPG advantage? I have to assume they do not testify to that effect because it is not totally true.
For me its screw or be screwed-figuratively.
Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all!!!!
I have been raising some questions about the 5W-20. But I talked with a service manager at Ford today, and he insisted the oil works best in the engines it's called for. As an example he pointed out that even the super charged Cobra uses the 5W-20.
There are advantages to thinner oil. I am not an engineer, but it stands to reason there must be, or else the standard would still be 10W-40.
I think Ford makes great automobiles and I think their engines are wonderful. I've owned two Honda's, which lasted forever (one went 209K). So if Honda is also going with the 5W-20, there must be something to it. I just would like to understand what the real advantage of 5W-20 is, I can't believe it is only CAFE. That would be very stupid for an automotive company to recommend a bad oil for their cars, I can't believe they would do that just for a few government brownie points. The 5W-20 must circulate in the cylinders better or something.
As far as Honda risking their "Reputation" for a "small" gain in CAFE. The 20 wt. isn't a "bad" oil and may allow many vehicles to reach 100K and I'm sure they feel and have calculated that this durability decrease will be small and pose no PR problems. I applaud those folks dutifully dumping in the 20 wt-its good for the environment and helps me breath better. I really have no beef with the concept. Oil analysis and the observation of durability of Ford/Honda engines will be forthcoming.
Good for the economy-good for the environment . The only problem is that it allows Ford and Honda to build more gas guzzlers. Idrive very concervatively and get well over the EPA #'s for gas milage.
I hope we can all agree that some engine designs are harder on oil than others. The top end of some Toyota engines, the ones with the cam gears instead of belts or chains, and the Nissan 4cyl truck engines appear to be able to shear a 5w30 to a 5w20 within 1200 miles judging by some of the results of the oil analysis reports on Bob's board.
So that 5w30 you want to run for better protection may become the 5w20 the Feds want you to run within 2k miles. LOL
Btw, the 5w30 oils can be manufactured to be at the low or high range of 30w at operating temp.
Synths also. Mobil 1 5/10w30 SS is designed to be at the low range of 30w.
Just thought I'd throw that into the discussion. Some 5w30 oils viscosity is very close to a 5w20 right out of the bottle.
When I can't find the M1 in 5qt jugs from Wallyworld, I don't hesitate to use 5w30-10w30 Chevron Supreme/Pennz/GTX, but I greatly shorten the duration of use.
I currently have 83,xxx miles on my 01 and all is well. No oil leaks, no oil consumption, I really like this vtec 4banger.
Judging by your responces, I believe you have answered your own question. A V8 that is noticeably noisier when running 5w20 and hoping to see 200k. I don't think so. Looks like 5w30 winter/10w30 summer if in the Deep South. Dino or synth is dependent on how frequently you want to be under this vehicle.
With 241,000 miles on my Q45 engine it still exceeds the minimum by 2 psi with Mobil 1 10w30 [most of the year] but on an 8 hour 95F summer trip it thins out enough to drop 1 psi below minimum so I use 50/50 15w50 and 10w30 to get it 3 psi above minimum for the 4 months of REAL SUMMER and some 0W30/10w30 for the 4 months of real winter..........your idle pressure tells you everything you need to know!
Goodness I expect owners to understand viscosity but this only matter to those that want to keep an engine from 150k onward......by the way starting to be good to your engine after being bad doesn't usually work!
Unfortunately engines usually fail from rod bearing which doesn't show up on oil pressure but sudden drops are predictive.
You can buy nice electronic digital oil pressure [accurate to 1.0 psi] gauges for $60.
People put WAY too much thought into this - it's really easy to deal with.
One thing that bugs me is that folks here will ask the SAME question 6 different way, get the SAME answer from 6 different people and still not believe it.
Heck, guys, use Wesson oil if it makes you happy - I'm tired of all the second guessing from people who haven't ever read the back of an oil can/bottle and don't understand the word "viscosity". Give it a rest.