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Mazda3

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Comments

  • creakid1creakid1 Member Posts: 2,032
    "The Honda hybrids might be eating Mazda dust soon...."

    Watch out for high performance AWD hybrids. They sure kick gas-only cars' [non-permissible content removed]. The 1st is the Lexus RX SUV. The FWD-only sedans from Honda/Acura is next. & w/ independent computer-control RWD electric motor, it can even be "paradise fun" if a drifting mode setting is available at a flip of a switch. That way, I don't even have to spend $ to get a Miata "go kart".

    Another beauty of this AWD hybrid design is the absence of the stupid drive-shaft-tunnel intrusion. Don't you envy the new Civic's flat floor?

    BMW's new AWD models are already incorporating power rather than just braking in the ESP program to adjust under & over steer, so a semi mode should provide a safe power oversteer!

    As Volvo claims its new S40/V50 competing w/ the (future)BMW 3-series, I hope this technology is there, too. So Mazda3 w/ AWD might also get it.

    So far, the present Volvo S60R AWD just doesn't get it:
    creakid1 "Acura TSX vs Audi A4" Aug 30, 2003 3:03am

    Mazda had '89 AWD 323 3-dr turbo & even a stripped '90 AWD Protege in N.A. I wonder if there will be another AWD here. A Californian like me don't need snow traction, so only a driftable AWD is useful for me.
  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    if they're adding the NAV, tire pressure, and HID to the 3, then I'd hope that the 6 gets these items. If not on the sedan, then at least on the hatch and the wagon. Wonder if the 3 with Navigation will be the lowest priced car with NAV. (That honor falls to the Pontiac Vibe right now) I don't want leather with my NAV, but I'll settle, assuming that it doesn't take away from the controls or makes it impossible to access the radio while driving. (ES300,Camry, Matrix, Vibe)
  • zaimonzaimon Member Posts: 124
    For someone who's up in Tahoe every other weekend between Thanksgiving and Easter, AWD is a must plus an added benefit when driving up to the slopes on Highway 50.

    "Don't you envy the new Civic's flat floor?"

    As long as I'm not in the back seat, I could care less. Even though the Civic does have a flat floor, the back seat is still too small for 5 people for the floor to be a noticeable improvement. Long trips with more than 4 people deserve something larger. I'd rather have something like the RX-8 and the Maxima's back seat center console and bring 4 people along comfortably for a trip.
  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    I'd much rather have a minivan or SUV for long hauls. Higher seats plus more room for everyone plus gear.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    minivan or SUV for long hauls. Higher seats plus more room for everyone plus gear.

    In a minivan, yes there's more space and almost carlike gas mileage. in an SUV, rarely more room and always horrendous gas mileage. Yes more cubic space for goods but not for people to sit comfortably.

    Curious only VW and Ford have the sense to offer diesel engines in passenger level vehicles. My dad's excursion can seat an army AND he gets 20 mpg on the freeway. You can't do that with a Expedition, Tahoe, etc.

    Wish someone would offer a diesel hybrid - electric motor take-off and diesel engine when moving. The mileage would be insane (probably in the 80s or 90s) and the torque off the line would be great as electric has full torque instantly.
  • newcar31newcar31 Member Posts: 3,711
    "Watch out for high performance AWD hybrids. They sure kick gas-only cars' [non-permissible content removed]. The 1st is the Lexus RX SUV. The FWD-only sedans from Honda/Acura is next. & w/ independent computer-control RWD electric motor, it can even be "paradise fun" if a drifting mode setting is available at a flip of a switch. That way, I don't even have to spend $ to get a Miata "go kart"."

    OK, you're totally lost on what I was talking about. I was not talking about gas/electric hybrids. I was talking about Honda vehicles that have had engine swaps. Some people call those cars "hybrids". A rotary Mazda3 or a Cobra powered Focus would be very scary for those "hybrid" Hondas.

    Here are some Honda hybrids:

    http://tech.hybridgarage.com/

    Here's a Focus/Lightning hybrid (nice RWD burnouts, leaves skid marks in opponents pants too!!):

    http://www.modernengineuity.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=302&a- mp;size=big&password=&sort=1&cat=507

    Now wouldn't a rotary Mazda3 be cool?
  • wongpreswongpres Member Posts: 422
    boxfan:

    The Mazda3 grilles from euro-spec, Japan-spec, N. American-spec are the same and you can interchange them all you want. Sport grille and regular grille are also interchangeable.

    However, you cannot interchange grilles between the Mazda3 sedan and Mazda3 hatch.

    As for the blue hatch on MazdaUSA's site, it is not N. American-spec (it is very close though, which is why MazdaUSA used it). In fact, I have yet to see a single picture of the N. American-spec Mazda3.

    The sport package also includes different front and rear bumpers (just like the Mazda6), hence the difference between the blue and copper hatches.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    I'd be willing to bet dollars to donuts Mazda will do a limited run 25k mazdaspeed3 with a rotary.

    The renesis is a small engine. so we know it'll fit. If they're tossing that engine in a 26k RX-8 and they have an AWD version of the Mazda3, it doesn't seem like a stretch for them to do a showcar with AWD/renesis and see how people react. if mazda gets 2-3k pre-orders, it's an easy deal. And as they've seen with the mazdaspeed pro, there's a market for high performance econo sedans.
  • newcar31newcar31 Member Posts: 3,711
    It'd be cool. They'd have to call it the RX3, like the old ones. Either the RX8 would need to get a bump in power, or the rotary in the RX3 would need to be detuned to say, 230 hp or less.

    A new AWD RX3 in hatch and sedan forms could give the Subaru WRX a SERIOUS run for it's money. A car like that would also boost Mazda's image among the youngins. It would definately have the smoothest, most free revving engine in it's class. It wouldn't be the most fuel efficient, but neither is the WRX and people still buy those. Lancer EVO? STI? RX3 turbo.
  • fowler3fowler3 Member Posts: 1,919
    "Wonder if the 3 with Navigation will be the lowest priced car with NAV."

    I dunno but it will most likely direct you only to WalMart and Target.

    folwer3
  • groovypippingroovypippin Member Posts: 264
    If you're in a betting mood, I will happily bet you $1000 US (or more if you're willing) that Mazda will never put a rotary engine in the Mazda3.

    I'll happily wait a few years to collect too!

    The rotary engine is reserved for certain, specifically designed vehicles in the Mazda line-up. Mazda will never offer a rotary engine as a mere option in other non-rotary vehicles in its line-up.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Designed for specific cars, eh? That's why the scuttle butt is that the next gen mazda may get a version of the renesis and the rx-7 may reappear too? Mazda's trying to get a foot back into a world market that's been ignoring them. If it takes dropping a renesis in cars, you better believe they]ll do it. especially with ford, a company very inclined to re-using engines across many brands.

    I think you're living in an old world view of mazda as some kind of race company. Hello, they have a 4 door RX out! The purists cried about that too. It's happened and the world didn't end. When a miata comes along with that engine, will their be more gnashing of teeth?

    How many RXs do they plan to make next year? 20-25k? They can keep the assembly line going for 2k more engines in 2005 to support a limited run RX3? Don't think so. If Mazda sees a market and the retooling is in line with profits, they'd be fools to pass it up. Though we already know they were fools in the past - witness the 626 of the late 90s.
  • bluong1bluong1 Member Posts: 1,927
    Don't you envy the new Civic's flat floor?

    Actually Mazda also claims that the Mazda3 has a "flat floor structure". I can't find a picture that can show this clearly. Anyone?

    Bruno
  • bigdaddycoatsbigdaddycoats Member Posts: 1,058
    Mazda 3s 5-speed with sport package - $17415.
  • groovypippingroovypippin Member Posts: 264
    Of course you are entitled to your own opinion, however I notice that you didn't take the bet!

    Who knows, there may be additional RX variants over time - an RX-7 is probably inevitable for instance.

    But I stick to my contention that Mazda is not going to start dumping rotary engines into other vehicles in their line-up. For one thing, the engines are hand made making it impossible to dramatically increase the number that are manufactured.
  • wildhawk14wildhawk14 Member Posts: 18
    Is that price a price quote or MSRP?
  • drumm01drumm01 Member Posts: 97
    Wow.. Thank you for the quote bigdaddycoats. That is quite a bargain, I was afraid that the 3 was going be advertised higher.

    Did you get that info from ur Mazda dealer?
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    Was that for a sedan, a 5-door, or both?

    *edit*

    OK, scratch that question. I just went back and found out that the 5-door does not come in i and s trims like the sedan. I guess the hatch is pretty much s only like the current P5 which has no non-sporty variant.

    I would guess that the hatch should start in price at about that amount. Hopefully a little less. ;)
  • bluong1bluong1 Member Posts: 1,927
    pretty darn good! It's the sedan right?

    Mazda3 is the Civic, Jetta, Corolla's killer! Well, if (and that's a big "if") everyone would be well informed.
  • wongpreswongpres Member Posts: 422
    I'm completely with groovypippin on this one (and also willing to put money on it).

    blueguydotcom, take a look my post #934 on this board. Yeah, it was in context of the Miata, but in addition to the very high cost of the rotary, there are many other reasons why there won't be a rotary in any potential Mazdaspeed3.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    For one thing, the engines are hand made making it impossible to dramatically increase the number that are manufactured.

    Sorry but that sounds like a load. I don't recall reading "hand made" in any of the reviews of the RX8. They're selling it in a 26k car. Hand made and 26k don't go hand in hand. Whatever spin Mazda freaks may be putting on the Renesis, that one's really too hard to swallow.
  • wongpreswongpres Member Posts: 422
    Rotary engines are hand-assembled. In fact, they must be hand-assembled in a sealed room!

    I've read an article about the Mazda rotary manufacturing process before and I was absolutely shocked at how expensive those engines are to make (unfortunately I don't have a link to that article anymore).

    The hand-made assembly is not bull.
  • drumm01drumm01 Member Posts: 97
    The Mazda3 could be the Civic, Corolla, Jetta killer. I use to word COULD because it will depend on how good the car is (so far it looks great), how much advertisement Mazda will use (they usually SUCK at advertisement) and.... let's not forget that the Jetta is supposed to be redesign for next year..
  • pzevpzev Member Posts: 807
    That's good? Seems kind of high to me. Of course there's no way to know for sure since we don't know what the sport package individually costs. And this particular one has the sport package as the only option right? How much could this sport package possibly cost? Even if it's $1,000 we're still talking $16,400 for a stripper Mazda3s sedan. The current ES manual sedan is $16,140. I know it's a much improved car but still I don't know. I'll wait for a price of a no options one or a price of the sport package before I can say if I like it or not though. Again I'm willing to take a 2.0 version but no side airbags available on the i trim? Not only that I'll have to fight through option packages just to get at ABS too. Added peace of mind of having safety items is just as important to me as the way the car looks or handles. Most of the rest of the world gets ABS and side airbags standard while we'll probably have to take moonroofs just to get these things. No thanks, I'll go elsewhere to get a car. I'll consider a no options version only if the car totally impresses me.
  • pzevpzev Member Posts: 807
    I don't think anyone posted this yet. On km77.com they have some charts comparing the manual 2.0 hatchback to other cars. If anybody is interested here it is.

    http://www.km77.com/marcas/mazda/3_04/0primera/tabla3.asp

    Fuel economy says around 28.7 MPG. Not sure if that's for mixed city/highway or their own observations but doesn't sound too bad, but nothing to brag about either. There's also some acceleration numbers but haven't had time to convert and compare yet.
  • bluong1bluong1 Member Posts: 1,927
    common Billy, be real, with respect to the current Protegé, the additional $300 (approximately the inflation in one year) gives a new designed 2.3l engine with SVT, ABS, side airbags, larger interior room, and many small improvements.

    Bruno
  • chikoochikoo Member Posts: 3,008
    are hand-assembled.
  • gee35coupegee35coupe Member Posts: 3,387
    Both cars sell like hotcakes with the highest trim levels having 130 hp and little if any sport intentions. I don't think the 3 is gonna "kill" those cars. It will be successful in the Protege way but nowhere near the Civic or Corrolla. It may be the talk of Edmunds though for a while. Be we are nowhere near "average" consumers.

    And there is no way Mazda will bastardize the Renesis by putting it in a 3. It's much cheaper to slap a turbo on the 2L or 2.3L.
  • bluong1bluong1 Member Posts: 1,927
    Both cars sell like hotcakes with the highest trim levels having 130 hp and little if any sport intentions

    How long US consumers will remain blind? Toyota and Honda must have serious reasons to worry about. It might be the beginning of the end of their reign.
  • newcar31newcar31 Member Posts: 3,711
    I don’t know if rotarys are hand made or not, but it doesn’t seem that far fetched. A rotary only has 3-4 major moving parts depending on whether or not it’s a 3 rotor or a 2 rotor. The 13b has two rotors and the eccentric shaft for major moving parts. That's it. Compare that to the cheapest hand built piston engine available, the engine in the Ford Mustang Cobra. That engine has 8 pistons, 8 connecting rods, 4 camshafts, 32 valves, a supercharger, crankshaft, lifters, etc. etc. Hand building piston engines appears to much more involved than hand building a rotary.
  • newcar31newcar31 Member Posts: 3,711
    "And there is no way Mazda will bastardize the Renesis by putting it in a 3. It's much cheaper to slap a turbo on the 2L or 2.3L."

    Don't forget that Mazda started using the rotary in their regular bread and butter vehicles, not in the sports car RX7. They even used it in a pickup truck before the RX7 existed, so they wouldn't be "bastardizing" the Renesis, they would just be going back to the way they used to be.
  • the_big_hthe_big_h Member Posts: 1,583
    see the beauty of rotary engine assembled by hand!!!

    http://www.rasterwerks.com/vid/RENESIS_high.wmv.zip

    it's in a zip file, so you gotta unzip it after download.

    enjoy!!!
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Even if this urban legend has a kernel of truth - such as some guy in a lab coat fastens a few screws or as someone pointed out the renesis has so few parts it's not labor intensive - the fact remains the RX8 is a 26k car. It's built on a more impressive and most likely expensive chassis with higher quality parts than the far cheaper to produce economy car. Now if Mazda can turn a profit selling an RX8 for 26k, why couldn't they turn a profit selling a 25k renesis-powered mazda3?

    Also, you're forgetting economies of scale. If they're producing 25k Renesis engines for the US alone, that means making 2k more engines for a Mazda3 would be more efficient cost and labor wise than retooling to make 20000 turbocharged versions of the 2.3L 4.

    If you order up the materials for 27,000 renesis engines and have an assembly team, that's gonna be cheaper per unit than making 25000.
  • bluong1bluong1 Member Posts: 1,927
    Notice that those mileage numbers are based on european 1999/100/EC guidelines. For comparison purpose, bellow are the 1999/100/EC specs (liter/100 km) for Mazda3 2.0l and Protege5:

          M3-MT P5-MT
    City 11.5 11.2
    Hwy 6.3 6.9

    Smaller number -> better mileage. Notice that the EPA mileage for P5-MT is 25/30 mpg. Also I'm not sure the 2.0l engines are identical for NA and european (e.g., the compression ratio and such).

    Acceleration 1-100 km/h is comparable to 0-60 mph (100 km=62 mph).

    Bruno
  • bigdaddycoatsbigdaddycoats Member Posts: 1,058
    That was the msrp for the 3s sedan with 5-spd and sport package given to me by the dealer mentioned earlier in these posts. Did not specify the cost of the sports package.
  • boggseboggse Member Posts: 1,048
    Do robots put together my Miata or Protege engine? Seems an awfully finicky thing to do with a robot. I thought all engines were essentially hand assembled?
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    So what's the latest word on final HP and more importantly torque numbers on the 3's engines?

    BTW, all my time tinkering with engines in high school I never though of them as complex. In fact they seem pretty rudimentary. Same basic design for 100 odd years...
  • bluong1bluong1 Member Posts: 1,927
    Nice! Though I don't get the sound, is it normal?
  • wongpreswongpres Member Posts: 422
    N. American-spec Mazda3 engines are: 2.0l - 148hp (targeted), and 2.3l - 160hp (targeted).

    As per my post #1067 on this board, the Mazdaspeed6 has been confirmed for production in '05 (for Europe, not coming to N. America). The Mazdaspeed6 will have a turbocharged 2.3l making 285hp in euro-spec. The basis of the 2.3l turbocharged engine is the same 2.3l as on the Mazda6 & Mazda3.

    So we have a 2.3l making 285hp in euro-spec versus a 1.3l rotary making 238hp. In addition, the rotary will require a different parts under the hood as well (e.g. transmission). I wonder if Mazda/Ford/Volvo planned for the RX-8 transmission hump in the C1 platform!

    Point being, it'll require a ton of development costs & redesigns to retrofit a rotary into the Mazda3 platform just for a limited-run Mazdaspeed edition. Plus, it'll still make less power than the turbocharged 2.3l! This is why in my post #1221, I said: "but in addition to the very high cost of the rotary, there are many other reasons why there won't be a rotary in any potential Mazdaspeed3."

    Again, it's way too early to even talk about a potential Mazdaspeed3. But if there is one, the rotary simply ain't gonna be in it, and I'm willing to put my money down on that.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Wow, 285? I'd buy a Mazda3 if it made 285 - good commuter car. :)

    I still don't get why Mazda would release a 3 with only 12 more HP than the bottom level. Seems silly. But bigger displacement generally means more torque, so...
  • bluong1bluong1 Member Posts: 1,927
    expect the 2.3l has 20 lb.ft more on torque. I'm sure the difference is even more pronounced if we can see the torque curves overlapping in the same graph.

    Bruno
  • wongpreswongpres Member Posts: 422
    Yes, I agree with you in terms of why Mazda's releasing 2 engines that are relatively close in performance.

    However, as I said in the Protege board, the 2.3l has almost 20lb-ft more torque and the 2.3l has SVT. So maybe it's more of a real-world difference than the specs would lead to. Need a testdrive to really find out.
  • zaimonzaimon Member Posts: 124
    It may depend on how easy it would be to retrofit the engine into the engine bay, which may require a different design and engine bay cast which means more money spent in R&D. If Mazda only sells a limited number of these cars for around 25k (like the Mazdaspeed 3) then the profit margin would be slim at best. Even then, consider the upgrades that would go into the car wrt new materials, transmission upgrades (6-sp), etc to separate a rotary from the normal MZ3. The price would probably be higher, closer to 30k which puts the car near WRx-STi and Lancer Evolution territory.

    Plus, Mazda considers the rotary a premium product for their line... I wouldn't bet against seeing a Mazda 3 with a rotary showed at a future SEMA show.

    I think once Mazdaspeed starts showing their version of the Mazda3 we're more likely to see their version of a turbocharged 2.3l which makes 280hp and ~260 lb-ft torque for the Mazda6. Couple that with AWD and ugly white seating and you've got the Mazdaspeed3.
  • the_big_hthe_big_h Member Posts: 1,583
    yeah it's a 'silent movie', no sound :-)
  • zaimonzaimon Member Posts: 124
    You beat me to the punch wongpres! This board is moving especiallt fast today...
  • creakid1creakid1 Member Posts: 2,032
    "How long US consumers will remain blind? Toyota and Honda must have serious reasons to worry about. It might be the beginning of the end of their reign."

    Although it'll take some time for people to realize, the now comfy Mazda3 is a no-compromise car - Euro-level comfort & handling, Japanese reliability & PRICE! It'll put the tiring-riding Protege to shame.

    There's got to be a reason why the Civic & Corolla sold better here(w/ the D.C. area as an exception) than the equally reliable Mazda compact. At least they can cruise on the fwy reasonably well in both quietness & ride harshness better than the Mazda. But Mazda is about to change all that w/ the new Euro-standard 3 while still leaving Toyota & Honda trailing behind in steering/handling.
  • newcar31newcar31 Member Posts: 3,711
    “I wonder if Mazda/Ford/Volvo planned for the RX-8 transmission hump in the C1 platform!”

    Who says they’d use the RX8’s transmission if they made a rotary Mazda3 (RX3)? I say they wouldn’t use the RX8s transmission because the RX8’s transmission is designed to be used in a RWD car with a longitudely (sp?) mounted engine. I think they’d use the same transmission that they plan on using in the AWD versions of the Mazda3 and mount the rotary transversely. That makes the most sense.

    “It may depend on how easy it would be to retrofit the engine into the engine bay, which may require a different design and engine bay cast which means more money spent in R&D.”

    The rotary is smaller than the 2.3L with regards to external physical dimensions. Mazda could probably mount the rotary in the glove box of the Mazda3 if they had to. As far as I can tell, the biggest thing they would need to do is relocate the engine mounts………but I still don’t think Mazda will ever do it.
  • the_big_hthe_big_h Member Posts: 1,583
    that the Mazda3, being the VALUE model of Mazda's lineup (save for the Mazda2 world-wide), needs to have decent GAS MILEAGE as a major part of its equation to besuccessful.

    and we all know rotaries like to chug gasolines, A LOT ;-)
  • audia8qaudia8q Member Posts: 3,138
    I hate to throw a wet blanket on this party but mazda has no intention of putting the rotary in the MZ3. The rotary debate going on within mazda right now is concerning the redesign of the Miata. There is alot of internal debating going on and it's even a long shot at best....This was told to me by a senior zone mgr within mazda....

    OTOH....There is a big surprise coming at the geneva car show. How's that for a big tease.
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