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Subaru Legacy GT- Is a turbo coming soon?
I recently read in a newspaper that Subaru will introduce turbos in both the Legacy and the Outback after the debut of the Forrester turbo. Any ideas of when this may happen?
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From all the research I've done and the salesman I've talked to at a local dealership, this should be happening this summer. I was told July or August for the redesigned Legacy with a turbo.
Have you heard the news on the Forester? 2.5T with 210hp and 235lb-ft of torque. Using a version of the engine in the STi (with AVCS). Very cool. Future is bright for the Legacy!
You also may want to check out the forums (especially the "News and Rumors" forum) at http://www.nasioc.com. They've got some great discusions going on there on this very topic.
-Ian
The Forester makes things promising, absolutely. It's gonna be a torque monster.
-juice
Tom
I've read on Motor Trend future vehicles section, that in 2005 there would be an STi version of the Legacy. I believe they're using the 6 cyl for this. HP will be in the mid-300's. I just wanted to make sure people realized this before plunking money down on the 2004 4-cyl turbo. If you're really looking for power and are willing to pay another $5K or so (pure speculation based on Impreza pricing), you'll want to wait.
-Ian
Enjoy the suspense!
-Ian
http://www.apexjapan.com/news/04_leg/03_leg_photo.html
-juice
(I have a whole theory about the SUV/light truck influence on agressive styling... but I won't go into that here).
-james
cusafr
I don't think anyone (but Subaru) knows for sure when it is due in the U.S. I've heard everything from July/August 2003 to April/May 2004. Needless to say, rumors abound.
What we do know for sure is that in Japan it is due to be released at the end of May. That and that they quit taking orders there (in Japan) for current Legacy's at least a month or two ago.
I, too, am hoping for them to be released closer to the July/August '03 date as I'm in dire need (OK, not exactly true, more like dire WANT) of a new car with more room and zoom than my Civic coupe.
-Ian
Examples include the Dodge Magnum and Chrysler 300C.
-juice
"... we asked Mr. Cyphers about the new turbocharged Baja. The motor is intriguing, and we asked if it will find its way into any of the other Legacy-based models such as the Outback or the Legacy GT. He answered that the next-generation 2005 Legacy would begin sales in mid 2004, so the turbo motor will most likely not find its way into other current Legacys. He added that the potential for wider use in the next car is probable. While that sounds excellent, it is a bit disappointing to hear that a car like the Legacy GT, badly in need of a power boost, will not get an immediate solution. ..."
-Dennis
http://info.detnews.com/autosinsider/sneakpeek/index.cfm?myrec=66
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk
Enjoy!!
-Ian
Edit: OK, I can't seem to get it to link directly. I think you may have to register for with their site. Then scroll through and look for a section titled "Spy Videos". It's worth it though!
tia
Bob
Mike (intrigue2) - When did your cousin say you would take possesion of this new car?
I really don't want to have to wait a full year for these to be available. I was hoping more like 3 or 4 months from now at the latest. Oh well...I'm starting to believe all the evidence pointing to a next April/May release date.
-Ian
The engine is the updated 2.5L detuned from STi spec to around 250+ hp. The interior is supposed to be improved dramaticaly to remove the cheap feel. The car is going to be lighter yet stronger. If I read correctly, the full revamped model is coming in the fall of 2004, a turbo upgrade ala the Forester is coming this fall.
The Outback has yet to be released in Japan. Shouldn't be too long though.
Bob
Great news about you're being able to order a 2005 in late Nov/Dec. 2003.
I've got $2000 Subaru bucks expiring on Dec. 31,2003(only good for purchase of new vehicle).
Could you ask your cousin if they would accept them on a 2005 order - even though the actual car wouldn't be delivered until April 2004.
Question: the person who can order it in November/December--would that be just the Turbo Legacy or the fully revamped version that buddhabman was referring to?
And buddhabman, any links or leads to reading on the other changes? TIA
There has been a lot of difference from dealer to dealer on availability of the WRX STI and the new Forester XT, but , so far, some dealers are selling the Forester XT at near invoice prices and ask thousands over MSRP for the STI. I am guessing the Legacy GT turbo wagon could be the next "it" car of the decade, and I hope to get in on the ground floor. I have seen some sites saying spring 2004 availability, others fall 2004. I dont have a lot of confidence that my ole' '94 Explorer will make it to fall '04...by then it will have approx 175,000 miless on it! Any word on the tranny/trim (i.e., leather , moonroof) packages that will be available in the turbo version? I am part of an army of folks who curse SoA about the limitation on the leather/moonroof in the forester XT to auto tranny only.
mark
-juice
I am still searching the globe for a Forester XT with the MT and Premium package, but now I'm not so sure I'm gonna marry her if I find her...another girl has caught my eye!
-jim
Jon[CT] over on NASIOC pointed out a reputable site (on the Subaru directory) listing the new H6 coupled with both 5MT and 5EAT.
Now lets just hope we get everything from the 2.0GT in Japan, but in LHD (of course) with the 2.5GT detuned from the STi to about 250-280hp as speculated.
I agree with many though, the H6 really need not be in the Legacy line, at least not now until it shows sales and want can make it a good investment. Outback only for now is a good idea.
Oe other idea... Who would like to see a version of the 2.0R in Japan, except pushing about 200hp/200ft-lb with equally good dyno curves out of an EJ25, running regular fuel for something to bridge the gap in an all 2.5L Legacy line?
$19-21k...Legacy S (sport) 2.5 NA SOHC 165/166
$21-23k...Legacy ST (sport touring) 2.5 NA DOHC AVCS 200/200
$25.9-28k...Legacy GT (grand touring) 2.5 turbo DOHC AVCS 250+/240+
Any ideas?
I think we'll see something like this:
base 2.5l, 170hp w/AVCS
turbo 2.5l, 250hp
In the Legacy line, for now.
-juice
This engine would really boost, no pun intended
Sorry for hijacking the turbo model ideas. Yeah, I'll take one of both.
I too think 200 HP is possible out of a N/A 2.5. But how does that play with a 210 HP 2.5 turbo, or a 212 HP 3.0 H-6? If you market a 200 HP N/A 2.5, then you're also going to have to bump the HP ratings all the other engines too, IMO.
Yeah, it can be done, but that could tax a small company like Subaru to bump all those engines at once.
My guess is you will more likely see a "trickle-down" bump in HP, rather than a "trickle-up" bump in HP. By that I mean the 2.5 turbo and H-6 will get a (significant) HP bump before the N/A 2.5. I'm thinking of this from a marketing standpoint.
Bob
Seth - have you driven the Forester XT? That engine is a gem, the 210hp is understated IMO. Plus it's ready for more given the semi-closed deck block and forged internals.
-juice
Engine stresses:
The majority of the engine components that would be changed to create more power would be actually to be reducing stresses and increase efficiency. Creating better intake and exhaust flow by efficiency alone will produce more power. Keeping compression ratio as close to 10.0:1 would both allow for use of regular 87 to a midgrade 89 fuel requirement and also place similar forces on the inside of the combustion chamber in both compression and power strokes. That shouldn't create as much extra stress on the engine as you may think. Look to is as an efficiency make-up versus just adding crude boost to a turbo engine.
Marketing:
Well as I'd love to see this engine this coming spring, I know it is far from feasible. As Bob said, with the XT engine so close, that may prove a problem in marketing. It appears that starting in 2005 the only H6 engine that will be in use is the more powerful and efficient 240+hp version which appears to have a good, clean distance from a 200hp 2.5L NA engine. We'll see how the turbo Forester turns out, but perhaps that would give way to pushing the XT a little farther up the scale, perhaps 230/230, that would give a good 30-35hp spread between each. And yes I have driven the XT in both 5MT and 4EAT form, and generally being a stick driver, I was impressed with the auto quite a bit. But that manual just pulled like crazy, talk about a little sleeper! If only they could wring a little more efficiency out of it in mileage it would be great.
I think this 2.5L DOHC AVCS NA engine could be ready to start in the Legacy and OB in MY05, and perhaps MY06 for the Forester XT and Impreza RS-type models, or wait until 07 for the new Impreza. I see an engine like this very capable of making good on the up-scale image Subaru seems to be looking at obtaining. That would work if one is already done. I know in the BE/BH models in Japan I think they were pushing 170PS with little/no modifications like the 2.0R, but in 2.5L form. I seriously think the 2.5L engine would not have any problems attaining a VERY streetable 2.5L configuration that would meet emissions, mileage requirements, and not cost near as much as the turbo engines do with associating hardware.
I really have to get in on the chat later.
Gearing is the secret, the final drive is very short. They could dial it back to 3.9:1 and get much better EPA mileage numbers.
You think they'll keep evolving the EJ25? Or will we see new engines based on the EZ30?
-juice
As for the EJ25, I see it as far from showing what it can really do. The technology is available, they are using it in several of their other designs. Why not show how innovative and capable Subaru really is? 200/200 is an increase of 35/34 over current. As I've said there are several cars running around with the stock block and mostly intake/exhaust and cam upgrades (ported/polished heads which won't be a factory option) push levels and capability much higher. By increasing the efficiency, I can see Subaru potentially (when you don't get hard on the accelerator) actually increasing mileage possibly slightly as well, since we are basically increasing overall efficiency of the design. People running full header-back exhausts, CAI, and even Cobb Tuning's Street Performer cams have said to get 1-2mpg better fuel economy. Similar to the ECU reflashes on WRX's, while getting more power, the overall tune of the engine increases dramatically with response and as wierd as it is, fuel economy increases too. I see one main area that needs to be addressed, Engine Management. Subaru builds great cars. I don't think we'd mind spending an extra couple hundred for more efficiently tuned and smoother running vehicles.
I don't sound excited at all about these technologies, do I? After seeing what they were doing with the Legacy 2.0R in Japan, and knowing what enthusiasts have been able to do over here in VERY streetable form, it's hard not to get excited! I know Subaru can do this as long as the marketing and production areas can get figured out.
I'll speak more about this when I return from class.
I think even 180hp would be plenty for a base engine. Step up to a 210hp light pressure turbo, then whatever engine beyond that, it'll be out of my price range!
-juice
2.0i (base)
2.0R (2.0 high-output midlevel)
2.0GT models (performance)
The current 2.5L SOHC engine can work quite well, especially if they can tune it for better emissions/economy. I know they have SULEV and PZEV rating making essentially zero emissions, not sure if economy is increased, but power is reduced to 160hp. The base models could all recieve this ultra-low emissions engine with hopefully a slight bump in economy to perhaps 22/30 EPA rated. Good for CAFE and EPA #'s.
The GT will get it's 250hp engine.
The middle is what I am getting at. With the way things are these days, why not spring for an efficient, lower priced fuel burning machine. Now I know Subaru says they want to move somewhat upscale, but does that mean maintaining costs as well? Fitting a very responsive, smooth naturally-aspirated 2.5L engine in the Legacy (a lighter one by a good margin) to bridge the gap between base and turbo would be a good thing. Make it similar to the L SE in packaging but with brakes from the current GT, slightly sportier suspension, and 17" wheels from the GT, 16x7" minimum. This could produce one very fun, yet very affordable grocery getter.
As for your ideas of 180hp AVCS and a 210 light hp turbo... I'd just like to see the one turbo engine in the Legacy lineup (aside from any future STi models), and the 200/200 engine in the Legacy ST midrange model. Would fit the range rather well as well as having good potential for the Forester XS and Impreza RS models in the near future. The 2.5 light pressure turbo could be exclusively used on the Forester XT and potentially the revised WRX and Baja if it lives much longer. Make it as simple as possible while being very value oriented. Max 3 engines per range. This 2.5 DOHC AVCS engine could also be the base engine for the Outbacks with an increase in power to handle the extra and making that extra cost worthwhile.
So I could see:
2.5 S Sedan/Wagon (160/16x 2.5L SOHC NA)
2.5ST Sedan/Wagon (200/200 2.5L DOHC AVCS NA)
2.5GT Sedan/Wagon (250/250 2.5L DOHC AVCS Turbo)
2.5GT Limited Sedan/Wagon (250/250 2.5L DOHC AVCS Turbo)
• I can see a 2.5 DOHC AVCS (190 hp) being used on the following models: Impreza RS, Outback Sport, Forester XS, Baja Sport and mid-level Legacy (L-SE equivalent)
• I can see the low-boost 2.5T (bumped to ~ 220 hp) being used on the Forester XT and Baja turbo; and perhaps(?) also on the entry-level Outback.
• I can see the mid-boost 2.5T (250 hp) on the Legacy GT, Outback GT and WRX.
• The H-6 (~ 240 hp) an Outback exclusive.
• Keep the 300 hp high-boost 2.5T a WRX STi exclusive
• Down the road offer a 350 hp 3.0T Legacy STi.
Bob
• I think having a 2.5 SOHC (160-170 hp) as an "entry-level" engine makes sense for the following models: Impreza TS, Forester X, and Legacy S (or whatever it will be called).
** I can see a 2.5 DOHC AVCS (200 hp) being used on the following models: Impreza RS, Outback Sport, Forester XS, Baja Sport and Legacy ST, base Outback models
** I can see the low-boost 2.5T (bumped to 220-230 hp) being used on the Forester XT and Baja turbo; and WRX.
** I can see the mid-boost 2.5T (250 hp) on the Legacy GT, Outback GT.
• The H-6 (240-250 hp) an Outback exclusive.
• Keep the 300 hp high-boost 2.5T a WRX STi exclusive
• Down the road offer a 350 hp 3.0T Legacy STi.
I really think that gives good model definition and affordability. Turbos in everything is more expensive for initial cost and ongoing cost of maintaining (including fuel.) I know they want to move upscale and that is fine, but offering a good level of affordability is still key, particularly in todays auto markets.
Too bad they likely won't have a 200hp/flat 200ft-lb of torque, 2.5L version of Japan's 2.0R. I'd probably buy one over a turbo model for better efficiency with still some good capability.
That is the basic 3-engine line-up I have heard of too. I know the 2.5NA model probably won't be much more responsive than my BD GT w/ Cobb Cat-Back & similar weights, but that engine will be the economical solution to keep in compliance with both CAFE and EPA. Hmm, I wonder how much the H6 versus 2.5T price gap will be? Wonder if either will come in at $26k or less w/ a manual transmission. I'd rather have cloth, but we'll see how premium it starts for the U.S. market. I hope they don't kill the people who used to be able to easier afford these models.
The wait is killing me!
Seth, I hope that there is a base and a limited version of the GT to allow more enthusiasts to get the power without the luxury items. My only "fear", as I've said, is that they may force the luxury items as a way of separating it from the WRX.
I can only wish and hope. Are you listening Subaru?