VW Passat TDI

cegledi · February 2003

I heard rumors about VW putting out a diesel version of its Passat. If this is true, sign me up. I have been looking for the diesel version of a quality vehicle like the Passat for a long time now and hopefully it will come true. Any ideas?

regfootball · February 2003

yes, it's about time. The last Passat had a diesel option.

idletask · February 2003

It will be interesting to see that. The Passat exists with 3 Diesel engines here: 100, 130 and 155hp.

regfootball · February 2003

the most hp of course!

or torque, I guess its diesel here...

krzyss · February 2003

it is 130 1.9 TDi (155 is V6 TDi), which is coming this fall.

Krzys

regfootball · February 2003

excellent! 5 speed avail I hope .....any mpg figures?

moparbad · February 2003

5 speed yes, but only automatic.

regfootball · February 2003

OH THAT MAKES no sense

8u6hfd · February 2003

The 2.5L V6 TDI makes 150 bhp

argent · February 2003

In European trim, the 2.5L V-6 Passat diesel is rated 150 hp, with 228 lbs-ft of torque at 1500 rpm, getting 54.3 mpg on the European extra-urban fuel economy cycle and 41.5 on the European combined cycle. As a point of comparison, the SEAT Toledo (a SEAT-badged version of the Jetta/Bora sedan) with the 1.9L four-cylinder TDI engine has 110 hp, 173 lbs-ft of torque, and rates 54.3 mpg on the combined cycle.

regfootball · February 2003

is that for a stick or a auto...also what are the 0-60 and 1/4 mile times.

moparbad · February 2003

04 TDI's.
VW will be offering the following engines for '04, 1.9 Liter PD, 100 HP (New Beetle, Golf and Jetta), 2.0 Liter twin-cam, 134 HP (New Passat, with an SOP of 45/03), 5.0 Liter V10, 310 HP (New Touareg SUV, SOP week 45/03).

All of these engines will be "45 State" legal and can't be sold in CA, MA, NY, VT, and ME which all adhere to "CA emission Standards".

This may change because California is looking at their current (diesel) standards and may roll the back due to their impact on this issue.

VW is working on this problem an anticipates a "50 state car" at some point.

cowgyrl13 · February 2003

I was reading in the WSJ about VW rolling out new models. Do you mean by "New Passat" an entirely redesigned model? I hope it is as nice at the current model.

2.0L TDI? Is this a new engine? I am ecstatic about a TDI Passat.

moparbad · February 2003

2004 Passat will be same body style as current with newly available 2.0L TDI engine. This is a good thing. Buying a first year entirely new model from VW is just asking for problems and the Passat will be all new in 2005 or 2006 at the latest. The TDI is a great engine and has a good reliability history, so the new 2.0 TDI in the Passat should be an excellent risk.
The 1996 and 1997 Passat diesels still sell for a premium.

regfootball · February 2003

the get really good mpg too.

argent · February 2003

The Passat 2.5L V-6 TDI has the following official numbers, per VW's British website.

6-speed: 0-62 mph: 9.6s; top speed: 137 mph; 40.4 mpg (combined cycle)
5-sp. auto: 0-62 mph: 10.7s; top speed: 133 mph; 34.9 mpg (combined cycle)

For the 1.9L TDI PD four-cylinder, it's:

6-speed: 0-62 mph: 10.2s; top speed: 125 mph; 47.1 mpg (combined cycle)
5-sp. auto: 0-62 mph: 11.9s; top speed: 122 mph; 38.7 mpg (combined cycle)

The 1.9 TDI PD is also available with a 6-speed and 4Motion (Quattro) AWD, which slows 0-62 mph acceleration to 10.5s, costs 3 mph in top speed, and 4.3 mpg in the combined cycle.

Note that these are official VW test numbers, and acceleration times are 0-100 kph (62 mph); 0-60 mph would be a tick or two quicker.

regfootball · February 2003

they oughta consider revising the gearing a bit, to drop the 0-60, and the top speed....we don't need a diesel commuter car to go 140mph on an autobahn in the US..

40 mpg is killer tho

argent · February 2003

Keep in mind that diesels -- especially the modern turbodiesels -- are less about high-end power and dragstrip acceleration times, and more about torque. In normal, low-rpm driving, they're more muscular than a lot of petrol engines with more rated top-end horsepower. The 1.9 TDI PS engine, for example, may have only 130 hp, which seems anemic compared to a lot of 2-2.5L petrol engines, but it has 228 lbs-ft of torque at only 1900 rpm, which is more than many petrol engines of similar displacement EVER develop.

cowgyrl13 · February 2003

Argent is right. A turbo diesel is very well suited to the general type of driving we do here. It's all about touque and little about horsepower. I don't need a car that will run the quarter mile, but I do want the oomph to get moving smartly while getting very good milage. Diesels are the only way in my mind to get both.

im_brentwood · February 2003

They sold a handful of 1998 Passats with the TDI engine, you could always try finding a used one

8u6hfd · February 2003

and...you want more torque?

Add a chip or a tuning box (though the tuning box tends to interfere with the MFA a bit)

krzyss · February 2003

Imperial galon is bigger than US one. Roughly 25%.

Krzys

PS US and British mile are identical - how come ?

idletask · February 2003

When will the US switch to the metric system, eh?

The end of all conversion problems! US and UK are the only two countries that I know of to persist with the foot/inch/mile system. And they even can't agree on the definition of the gallon

argent · February 2003

Okay, let's convert these numbers to U.S. mpg. Using the metric numbers (courtesy volkswagen.fr in this case), we find the following numbers, first in liters/100 km (European comibned cycle) and then in U.S. mpg:
(first number is 6-speed, second is Tiptronic)
l/100k -- mpg
Passat Sport 1.9 TDI 130: 5.6/7.1 -- 42.2/33.3
Passat Carat 2.5 TDI V-6: 6.9/8.0 -- 34.3/29.6

Not as impressive as the Imperial mpg, but not bad.

cowgyrl13 · February 2003

...better than what we get with the V6 for sure.

Just realized that '98 was the first year for the current body style. A used Passat TDI would be acceptable for the time being...

bhill2 · February 2003

I am somewhat surprised that the mileage is as much lower with Tiptronic than with a 6-speed, since diesels tend to be torque monsters. Is the gearing radically different or is the combined cycle heavy on start and stop?

argent · February 2003

The gearing is not radically different; I think the 5-speed Tiptronic eats a lot of power. It's not an especially efficient transmission, and I've heard that even VW engineers are not pleased with it. The amount of performance it costs is substantial -- nearly a second in 0-60 times even with the V-6 -- which suggests that its mechanical efficiency is not so good.

vgc79 · February 2003

After looking at several reviews, it looks like Audi has a good thing going with its CVT. Some reviews said it has shaved a second off 0-60 mph and way more fuel efficient than the Tiptronic. Is there any technical reason why it would not work on a diesel passat?

idletask · February 2003

The Passat has this very particular design feature that while it's a FWD car, its engines are mounted longitudinally. The hood not being that long and high, it restricts the choice for engine/transmissions combos. Maybe that's why there is no CVT?

bhill2 · February 2003

I had heard that CVT transmissions were until recently limited to use in smaller cars because of limitations in their torque handling capabiliy. In fact their use with the Audi 3 liter engine was considered a breakthrough.

argent · February 2003

The only reason VW does not use the Multitronic CVT on the Passat is probably cost, production, and/or image-related. Audi DOES offer Multitronic with the 2.5L TDI V-6 on A4 and A6 models. Since the current Passat shares its platform with those cars, there's no technical reason it couldn't use it as well.

The diesel V-6, with 228 lbs-ft of torque, represents about the limits of the Multitronic transmission's present torque capacity, however, and Audi still has not worked out how to make the CVT compatible with Quattro, so it's only used in FWD applications.

Future Passats are rumored to be returning to a transverse engine layout, so the W8 engine and the bigger Audi engines will no longer fit. VW AG will probably develop a version of Multitronic for transverse engine layouts, so I'd expect it to appear on Golfs and Passats as well as Audis at some point.

I imagine they're working on making it compatible with Quattro, although they haven't gotten it sorted yet. In any case, future transverse-engine Passats would have to use the Haldex all-wheel drive system (like the European-spec Golf 4Motion) rather than Quattro, so that might present even more complications.

(The brand names are a little bit confusing. "Quattro" and "4Motion" are used generically for Audi and VW all-wheel drive cars, but only longitudinal-engine models -- A4/A6/Passat/A8 -- use the Audi Quattro system. transverse-engine models like the Audi A3/S3/TT and the Golf actually use the Haldex system, whatever the badge says.)

dudleyr · March 2003

Is it true that the Passat diesel will only have an automatic tranny, as one poster above mentioned. This would be very bad news to me.

regfootball · March 2003

yeah, what is the point in that.

argent · March 2003

Well, my guess would be that it's a combination of three things --
1) it's relatively difficult to get turbodiesels to pass current U.S. federal emissions standards (Euro III and Euro IV emissions have separate, more generous allowances for diesels);
2) each powertrain combination (engine+transmission) has to be tested and certified separately, which is expensive;
and 3) more than 80% of U.S. cars are sold with automatic
(it may also be easier to get the diesel to pass emissions tests in autobox form, but I don't know for sure).

With all that in mind, it makes sense that VW would not want to put a huge investment into EPA certification for different powertrain combos for what's likely to be a pretty narrow sales market. So they may not think it's worth their while to go to the expense and trouble of certifying the manual-diesel combo based on how many they'd sell here.

cosmo2 · March 2003

I noted that the April 2003 issue of Consumer Reports lists the 2.0L 134HP TDI as an available engine for the 2003 model Passat. Maybe that will generate more interest.

regfootball · March 2003

but the point of diesel is mpg compared to gasoline. the manual tranny is more efficient, espeically mated to a diesel.

using the logic above, then lets kill the golf jetta and beetle diesels.

moparbad · March 2003

It is a 5 speed auto and an auto diesel is more efficient than an auto gasoline motor.
Autos do not = more mpg all the time. Acura TSX is one of several examples that obtain better mpg with auto than manual.
Any Passat diesel is appreciated at this point. This may be the last Passat diesel available and will be the only B5 Passat diesel in North America.
And to repeat what was said earlier, over 80% of US buyers want the automatic.

Sort of off topic but has anyone checked out the CrossLander diesel? www.crosslander4x4.com
It is only offered in a 5 speed;)

idletask · March 2003

A slushbox is less of a handicap for a Diesel, thanks to its lower torque. But the torque converter is still there and eats up power nevertheless.

Now, whether in auto fashion it gets more or less mpg I don't know (there's no such thing as an auto Diesel Passat here, only Audis AFAIK so I can't compare), but it will largely depend on the gearing. Same for the Acura...

Looks like you'll get the 2.0l TDI, BTW, an all new design, and the first design in which VW manages to put 4 valves per cylinder AND pump nozzles... The advantage of going for an all new design, I guess. The 1.9l TDI is already 10 years old and couldn't have both at the same time

dudleyr · March 2003

An automatic is a huge handicapp for a diesel. Look at the epa mileage figures for the auto vs. manual on the golf. 34/45 vs 42/49. That is a huge difference of 8 mpg in the city. The automatic is not much better than a cvt automatic civic 34/38.

The best feature of a diesel is it's mpg - it should be highlighted (a diesel with an automatic is like Michael Johnson in hiking boots). I doubt they will leave out the manual tranny. When they have their advertisements that show how frugal the diesel is they can use the numbers from the manual to really bring the point home.

gvanmoor · March 2003

A diesel Passat with manual shift would be very high on my list. One with automatic would not be on my list at all. From the German volkswagen website the mpg numbers for the 130bhp TDI are:

mpg 5-speed: 30.4(city), 51.1 (Hwy)
mpg automatic: 23.4 (city), 42.8 (Hwy)

and acceleration from 0 - 62mph:

5-speed: 9.9 sec
automatic: 11.5 sec

There's no contest!

argent · March 2003

While the manual would get better mileage than the Tiptronic, it may be easier for VW to get the TDI to pass U.S. emissions standards with the automatic than with the manual. (This is sometimes the case.) Since emissions are a major sticking point for diesels for the U.S. market, I would not be surprised if that was a big part of the reasoning.

tominsd · March 2003

I hope VW is listening - I think I high percentage of diesel buyers want a manual transmission.

I have also heard that VW will offer the diesel in California and the Northeast.

mpgman · March 2003

Unleaded regular where I am is now over 1.50, but diesel is pushing 1.90. I know that these are inflated given imminent war. Does anyone know the 12 month rolling average for diesel vs. regular? I know that all but the 2.0L gas engine ask for more octane.

Thanks.

natescape · March 2003

mpgman, diesel tends to be more expensive in winter (production shifts to home heating oil) and cheaper in summer. It averages out to be quite close to regular gasoline. Check out this DOE site for good info: http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/oog/info/gdu/gasdiesel.asp

I'd be fine with a tip tranny. It's a decent compromise for now. I'm sure there will be auto and manual versions in the coming years, but they have to enter the market with the broadest appeal tranny, and I think a tip does that.

mpgman · March 2003

So would this TDI Passat be a sedan only, or a wagon too in 04? Will factory leather be an option or not? I understand that VW won't go near after market leather with the side air bags. Is that accurate?

deuskid · March 2003

I would buy a Passat w/ a 5 speed, diesel, leather, sun roof in a yankee second & I'm not even a yankee 8-).

I am strongly considering buying a Jetta and if it had more back seat room it would be ideal. Improving that would be my first choice then a close second would be a diesel Passat.

Right now the best option available to me is the current Jetta/diesel. I'd wait until the next model year if they'd bring out the Passat/diesel combo. Not knowing, I'll probably be buying a Jetta soon.

Now if they'd make more practical keys [and fix the leg room] I'd deem the Jetta near perfect.

Kirstie_H · March 2003

Heck, if they "fixed" the Jetta to suit you, it wouldn't suit me!

kirstie_h
Jetta owner

mpgman · March 2003

I spoke to someone who seemed to know their stuff in VW corporate. She told me that the TDI Passat would be here mid to late 2004, and would be available in the sedan and the wagon.

deuskid · March 2003

you mean to tell me you think it preferable to have a vehicle where an average adult cannot fit into the back seat, where a lost key costs close to $200 and will not fit on a key ring or into a pants pocket comfortably? I don't know, I kind of like comfort, convience and efficiency.

8-)

dieselbreath · March 2003

My wife has already ordered her new Passat diesel wagon from the first arrival of 2004 models.
They will all be automatics at first ... standard is not even an option!
But at least its the Tip-tronic and not that old 4-spd POS used in the cheaper cars!
(Actually, the only problem with the 4-spd auto in her '91 Passat was the connections to the "brain" under the back seat ... not the tranny itself)
I think the CVT would be ideal mated to a diesel if they kept it at peak torque.
If not the CVT, I'd take the 6-speed tip-tronic that's in the New Beetle Convertible.
But its my wife's car, and she's tired of the 5-speed in her Eurovan.
Now if only we could talk VW into that 6-speed, DSG tranny that's in the 3.2L Audi TT....

My guess why automatic only is:
- most americans buy automatics
- Passat diesels are low-volume sales, not like Jetta diesels, so they're picking a single configuration for simplicity.
But we're just glad they're going to sell a diesel Passat again ... and we're getting one before they change their mind

moparbad · March 2003

I'm 99% certain the Passat TDI will not even go into production before week 45 of 2003 (November) and it will not show up in USA and Canada until January/February 2004. I hope you did not put a deposit down on your order. If I am wrong and orders are now open I would appreciate very much knowing the pricing, the options and the colors available.
I suspect the dealer or salesperson is blowing some smoke in your direction.

VW Passat TDI

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