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VW Passat TDI

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Comments

  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    No, no, and no.
    High pressures, direct injection, high compression and valve technology in the engine, clean fuel and advanced catylysts behind engine are what allow high performance and low emissions on diesel. Common rail is just a delivery method for the fuel. A common rail or unit injectors both accomplish pressurizing the fuel for injectors. Neither is superior. Both are available in US with current fuel. Cummins in the Ram diesel is common rail, VW offers unit injector, Ford Powerstroke is common rail, Dodge Sprinter Van has diesel MB engine with common rail and a few others. They are already available in North America in Canada and US and they work with the high sulfur fuel. They will have much lower emissions with low sulfur fuel. It will not be mandated until 2006, not 2004 as you stated.

    Are you simply restating what you read or do you have an actual understanding and experience with these engines?

    Also, posting a link to another automotive forum is against Edmunds rules and will get you into trouble with the host. FYI.
  • fdannafdanna Member Posts: 263
    All information I'm giving is based on what I've read. The 2004 date was a cut and paste from consumer reports, though I admit I had seen 2006 everywhere else.

    Apparently I'm confusing a technology for engine performance and efficiency for a technology that promotes cleanliness (common rail and cleaner emissions).

    From dieselfuel.org (that's not a link so that's ok right?) I can see that basically without low-sulphur fuel there is no clean diesel when compared to petroleum engines.

    Quote: "With the introduction of lower sulphur diesel fuel, a number of exhaust treatment systems can further reduce emissions from diesel engines.

    Particulate Traps - These filters collect particulate matter as the exhaust gases pass through and can reduce particulate emissions by 80-90% using a catalytic reaction or an auxiliary heating element.

    Catalytic Converters - These devices use a chemical reaction to convert emissions into harmless substances. Some catalysts - such as selective catalytic reduction (SCR) devices and NOx absorbers - focus on nitrogen oxides and can reduce these emissions by 25-50%. "

    I have driven so called "modern" diesel engines in europe and can only say unscientifically that they do not seem cleaner (either by smell or visual exhuast). However, I don't think european models have particulate traps or catalytic converters.
  • aronengaroneng Member Posts: 2
    Common Rail will give better emissions results across a broader operating range of the engine. However, if you look at the average speed and average load of the engine, designers can accomplish about the same emissions and fuel economy with a standard high pressure injection pump/unit injector.

    Emissions that all recip engines produce that are of a concern and that are measured include NOx, CO, Hydrocarbons, SOx, and particulates. All of these can be reduced by a primary or secondary means. Primary reduction is done by engine design. Secondary is accomplished outside the engine. A couple of examples of NOx reduction as a primary means would be exhaust gas recirculation and high compression ratio. A secondary means would be an SCR or catalyst. Gas engines emit different amounts of the emissions listed as compared to the diesel engines. So there is some politics involved as to say what is the emission(s) that should be reduced and even scientists don't necessarily agree as to which is the worst emissions and which should be of primary concern.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Read this to see some of the reasons why diesel has a positive future as environmentally friendly vehicle http://quickstart.clari.net/qs_se/webnews/wed/au/Bca-green-star-p- roducts.RAHP_DO1.html
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Here is a comparison that may illustrate some of the benefits fo the TDI type engine to be offered in the Passat.

    Greenhouse gas emissions as provided by EPA (3.1 is best 15.3 is worst)
    Volkswagen Jetta TDI is 5.1 tons annual
    Mazda Protege 2.0 is 7.0 tons annual

    The gasoline vehicle produces MORE greenhouse gas emissions and uses much more fuel per mile traveled than VW Jetta TDI.

    Passat TDI should prove a better choice compared to many of it's midsize competitors. More MPG and less greenhouse gasses.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Saw it today. Very nice. It should arrive in about 2 weeks to a month at Port and dealerships soon after.
  • rickroverrickrover Member Posts: 601
    Thanks for the update mopar - I will definately be taking one for a test drive when they hit my dealer. I'll be keeping my Jetta TDI wagon until the next generation Passat diesel wagon is available in 2005 - I'm hoping the diesel will be available when they launch the next generation Passat.
  • cosmo2cosmo2 Member Posts: 61
    if DSG with 4-Motion will be available on the 2005 Passat TDI? Are you reading this, Volkswagen?
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    It would be nice, it won't be available. 2005 Passat is same body style as 2004, changes are expected to be minimal for 2005 Passat until the new body style 2006 Passat shows up late in 2005.
  • rickroverrickrover Member Posts: 601
    What's sad is you know it will be available in Europe. The current Passat is available over there with a high performance TDI 4 Motion and a six speed manual.
  • mkarpmkarp Member Posts: 22
    When is VWOA going to release the prices for the passat tdi? Are they still going to be available in April?
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    VWOA has already released pricing. The dealers have the information. Also, even www.KBB.com has the pricing listed on it's site.
    The Passat TDI is still scheduled to arrive by end of March.
  • nw_passatnw_passat Member Posts: 1
    I was just out at my local VW dealer yesterday to put in my pre-order on a Passat TDI wagon. I was told May/June for the arrival of the first TDI cars. But the sense from the dealer was early to mid summer.

    Pricing/options is available from your local dealer, some may even take a "pre-order".

    BTW, there is a recent article regarding the new particulate filter and low emissions on the new TDI, check out vwvortex.com.
  • houstonkenhoustonken Member Posts: 28
    I just skimmed this thread. I e-mailed the local VW dealer in Houston and was told the 2004 diesel passat would be available in April or May.

    Does anyone know what what mileage the Passat will get on the city/highway ?

    Why is VW introducing a 2004 car only 4-5 months before the 2005 car will arrive ? I'm hoping for serious discounts on the 2004 when the 2005 arrive especially in a town that hates diesel.

    Are there any reliability concerns with this second generation diesel ? I had a 1982 diesel jetta that was indestructible and got 50 mph on the freeway, but was noisy, smelly and woefully underpowered. It seems the new diesels have cured the traditional problems with diesels. I'm wondering if they will still be indestructible.
  • mike91326mike91326 Member Posts: 251
    I was planning on buying a Passat TDI when they came out but I have heard that they won’t be sold in California (I live in LA) until 2006. I’m now thinking of flying over to Las Vegas to purchase it and then drive it back to LA. Does anyone know if I would have any problems registering the car in California? Is there anything California can do with the car?
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    2004 VW TDI do not meet the California emissions requirements. They are not CA certified for emissions. CA will not register a 2004 TDI.
  • jchagtdijchagtdi Member Posts: 55
    2004 TDIs do not comply with CARB (California Air Resource Board) emission requirements. So, it cannot be certified for sale in any state that uses CARB standards. Because it cannot be sold new in these states, the respective Departments of Motor Vehicles will not register a new '04 TDI. Once an '04 TDI reaches 7500 miles, it is then considered a 'used' vehicle, and can be registered in a CARB state. CARB has left a loophole wide enough to drive a TDI through!! The only problem is getting to 7500. Some happen to be fortunate and have a second home/address in a non-CARB state, so they get to drive a new TDI and not feel guilty about anything. The rest in CARB Kingdom have to either suffer without new TDIs, or scheme a way to skirt the rules.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    "California Law also prohibits a California resident or business from driving their vehicle to obtain in excess of 7,500 miles."
  • weaponousweaponous Member Posts: 38
    I have heard that the 2005 New Passat will not be available until April of 2005, similar to the launch of the 2001.5 which I believe debuted in March 2001. There will be a 2005 Passat released in September similar to 2001.5+ models.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    The current Passat including the TDI will continue until at least very late summer 2005. New body style will be a 2006 model year.
  • houstonkenhoustonken Member Posts: 28
    Basically, the consensus is that VW is introducing the Passat TDI only 18 months to 2 years before the whole Passat family will be redesigned. Is this correct ?

    Any idea of gas mileage numbers ?
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    VW institutes running changes during the model year on it's vehicles so it is not unusual to have something new introduced outside of changes in model year.
    I'd estimate 28 mpg city and 38 mpg highway for the Passat TDI. Will have to wait for the official numbers.
  • weaponousweaponous Member Posts: 38
    Houstonken - Moparbad could be right, the new body style may not be released until Sept 2005 as the 2006, rather than a 2005.5. But it is true, you've got less than 2 years to pick up the existing TDI body style.

    They should have built it a long time ago, didn't see demand for it I guess
  • rickroverrickrover Member Posts: 601
    VW has always built Passat Diesels - what's "new" is they are finally releasing it in the U.S.. VW offers a variety of diesel engines and drive train configurations in other markets. You can get a Passat diesel wagon with 4Motion and a six speed manual in Europe. You can get a Quattro Audi A6 diesel and the V10 diesel in our Touareg is available in the Audi A8. My BMW X5 is available in Europe with an excellent diesel. Mercedes put a diesel in thier first AMG car this year, a C230 coupe with a high performance diesel engine.

    VW, Audi, BMW and Mercedes have a variety of high performance diesel engines available in Europe. The main reason we don't see them is because of our high sulfer diesel fuel - this should be corrected by 2006 when federal law mandates low sulfer diesel in the U.S..

    I have an 03 Jetta TDI wagon with an automatic that has made me a diesel fanatic. I'm definately planning to trade my 01 X5 for the next generation Passat TDI wagon in a couple years.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Passat TDI was offered in 1996 and 1997 and certified for 1998 and dropped at the last minute by VW. It is amazing how high the residual values are for the 1996-7 year Passat TDI. The wagon in excellent condition still brings over $10,000.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    http://www.autoweek.com/cat_content.mv?port_code=autoweek&cat- _code=carnews&loc_code=index&content_code=04027603

    Interesting.
  • jowettjowett Member Posts: 12
    Was at the B.C. auto show yesterday , checked out the new Passat tdi and obtained the official Transport Canada mpg figures for it.

    8.7 l/100 kms city ( 32 mpg imperial or about 27mpg U.S.)

    5.7 l/100 kms highway( 50 mpg imperial or about 42 mpg U.S.)
    I have found in the past that the converted figures are almost identical to the official U.S.figures when they come out.
  • rickroverrickrover Member Posts: 601
    Those are excellent MPG figures. I'm looking forward to test driving a diesel Passat when they come out. I have an 03 diesel Jetta wagon that a perfect commuter.

    As for actually purchasing a TDI Passat - the main reason I won't consider the current Passat TDI is the next generation Passat will be here in a year or so and I can wait. The next generation Passat has a 2" longer wheelbase that's all in the back seat - huge incentive to wait.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    News is that the Passat TDI is expected to be at some dealers this week. It is at port now.
  • dieselbreathdieselbreath Member Posts: 243
    Should have brought my digital camera.
    It looks exactly like the other passats inside, but under the hood has the longitudinal engine with a big engine cover with cross-wise ridges mimicking an intake manifold.
    The engine is very compact .... you can see the wheels and ground past the engine ... not a totally jammed engine compartment like the Audi S4-Avant and RS6 that I checked out too.
    But they're still not expecting official delivery until June for regular orders.

    BTW: The Audi dealers claim they'll be selling diesel A4s and maybe A6s as 2005 models late this year. And I filled out a questionaire on diesel powerplants that asked (amongst other things) "how much of a premium would you pay for a diesel powered vehicle" ... but this wasn't VW or Audi ... it was BMW doing the poll! Plus Mercedes is taking orders on the diesel-powered SMART cars they'll be delivering in September.
  • dieselbreathdieselbreath Member Posts: 243
    Thanks for the link!

    I'm surprised that 24% of Golf sales are TDIs in the US.

    Did you see the report (10 months ago) "Ricardo reports first significant signs of Americans buying diesel cars" here http://www.ricardo.com/mediaCentre/newsArticle.asp?id=114&sec- tor=4 ???

    It looks like diesel awareness is spreading.
    Does anyone know how the diesel Jeep Liberty is selling?
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,148
    Hey dieselbreath - I like your user ID, and your profile is an interesting read. I noticed you've been a member for awhile, and I'm glad you've started posting. I enjoyed your review of the Chrysler 300C, and it sounds like you've got a lot to add to the VW perspectives. Welcome to Future Vehicles!

    As for the Liberty, I don't think it's available yet. I did some searches (including jeep.com) and couldn't find anything but reviews - but not from consumers. I got the impression that it won't be available til this fall, but I could easily be mistaken.

    MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
    Need help navigating? kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
    Share your vehicle reviews

  • dieselbreathdieselbreath Member Posts: 243
    I haven't been posting (or reading) for a few months. My business is taking off and we'll be short-staffed till I can afford to staff up, so I'm working 6 or 7 days a week till late. But it was exciting to finally sit in a TDI Passat, though not as exciting as it will be drive one!

    RE Chrysler 300 ... I was wondering if you had one of those and watched for a wrecked Sprinter van to sourche the 2.7 CDI engine, then once the DC warantee runs out the turbo-diesel should just bolt up to the tranny (although motor mounts and exhaust & coolant plumbing may have to be customized).....
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    dieselbreath Mar 26, 2003 1:54am

    How is your Passat TDI Wagon? How long have you had it? It has been a while since you ordered it in March of 2003. I feel cheated in the US since we still do not have the Passat TDI and you have had them since Sept. 2003 in Canada.
  • gcarpergcarper Member Posts: 2
    Went by the Dealer today and drove a 2004 Passat TDI Wagon here in Fairfax VA....very impressed with the power...window sticker was 28,600 with heated leather seats, monsoon, alloys & moon roof. I reset the trip computer before the trip and got 35MPG in mixed driving from a cold start. I tried to trade by 2001.5 wagon with the same specs...we couldn't agree on pricing so I will most likely end up in a 2004 Toyota Prius...for several reasons --I have had it with dealer, (sales and service) plus I can drive the prius in the HOV lanes here in Northern Virginia, plus the $4000 tax rebate!!!!...also Prius has HID lights, Climate control and Navigation, bluetooth etc and I still can get it for less than the Passat TDI, that doesn't have any of that stuff....Man I wanted this thing so bad....but I have had enough of the take it or leave it attitude ...looks like I will be shopping on ebay tonight.. If VW North America was smart they would take the Prius technology and marry it to the TDI and kick butt in North America!!!! I have a hard time paying almost 30,000 USD for a car without Navigation or HID headlights or Climate control...VW wake up...and take your PHAETON (or whatever it is called) and spend the money in R& D and Marketing for the US consumer.

    This would have made my 5th VW and my 3rd Diesel.....sorry I am going to defect to the Hybrid crowd... HYBRIDVORTEX just doesn't have a ring to it.....
  • jrct9454jrct9454 Member Posts: 2,363
    ...about value vs price on a Passat TDI vs the new Prius. I too am considering both cars, and the price of the VW gives one real pause, plus all of the negatives about the dealer body as a whole and the likelihood of needing the dealer to solve more problems down the line.

    However, you'd better be prepared to be patient in taking delivery of a Prius - in many parts of the country, a realistic estimate is 12-18 months depending on what options and color you're willing to settle for, with no sign that supply is going to catch up with demand any time soon.
  • rickroverrickrover Member Posts: 601
    I'm looking forward to test driving a Passat diesel wagon. I have a Jetta TDI that's turned me into a diesel fanatic. I put a lot of miles on my Jetta, this gas crunch hasn't phased me in the least. I get just under 40 mpg in mostly in-town driving and it's an automatic.

    I wouldn't be concerned about problems with a Passat diesel, I had a 2000 Passat 1.8t that never gave me a single problem in 60k miles and now this 03 TDI Jetta wagon has 15k miles with no problems what-so-ever. Plus the diesel engine in the Passat isn't new, it's been available in Europe for years.
    I'm not about to trade the 03 for the Passat TDI, I know I wouldn't be happy with the trade $$ and the Jetta is fine for now. I'm waiting for the next generation Passat TDI wagon to come out in late 05 or 06 - I'll be all over that.

    The Prius is a fantastic package, interior room is amazing. I'd still wait for some other version of Toyota's Hybrid technology like the Highlander. I need more cargo room than the Prius provides - a hybrid Highlander would be perfect.

    What would really be cool is if VW made a diesel hybrid - 90 MPG!
  • gadgetfilesgadgetfiles Member Posts: 20
    I agree w/ your thoughts about the Prius and VW - and also looked at both cars (Prius and Jetta).

    I settled on the Jetta for a couple of reasons:
    1. I will be doing more highway driving than in-town and in-town is where the hybrids really shine mileage wise.

    2. I just don't trust the hybrid engines yet. I'm sure they are good quality - and Toyota / Honda has a good reputation - but I really question how these small, small engines will stand up to 80k, 100k, 150k miles. I just can't see these as serious, high mile commuter vehicles.

    Maybe in 5 years I'll be proved wrong - but I think it will be that long before this technology proves itself.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    A Passat TDI GL Wagon is $24,635 and a Passat 1.8T GL Wagon is $24,430. A $200 increase. Hybrid technology is said to add from $2000 to over $6000 to a vehicle AND the hybrid technolgy is being subsidized by the manufacturers. Diesel technology is much less of an increase.
    In my opinion I could not justify buying any Passat other than the TDI. It is simply the best value if you are buying a VW.
  • karl1karl1 Member Posts: 2
    I have read that in 2006 there will be new diesel standards in North America for emissions. Does anyone know how this will affect VW TDI engines? Will older ones still run? Will newer ones (after 2006) be considerably different? I'm currently saving up for a TDI, should I wait an extra year?
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    First, VW has TDI that meet the 2006 emissions and beyond. http://www.solarhouse.com/testimony
    It appears that the TDI will be 50 states certified again. The TDI and other diesels will perform better and with much, much lower emissions with ULSD diesel is mandated in 2006. <15ppm sulfur and higher cetane is win-win.
    Currently we have a 2 valve per cylinder head on the PD TDI in the Passat that is offered in North America and Europe uses a 4 valve head. The differences between the Europe and NA engines will almost certainly disappear and we will have equal performance then. VW is making compromises on current TDI engines in order to meet emissions regulations with the current dirty high sulfur diesel.
    Expect to see other manufacturers introduce diesel cars and possibly light trucks with diesel in 2006. Ford is rumored to have a 1/2 ton diesel, Focus diesel and at least one other diesel ready for 2006 when the low sulfur fuel is here. Diamler already has approved diesel programs for most of Jeep and Chrysler export vehicles and will most likely offer the diesel versions in North America if their test of the Liberty diesel 2005 is favorable.
    Should you wait...only time will tell. I'll say this, resale on VW TDI is fantastic, so if you do buy now you could get a 2006 without losing much.
  • jchagtdijchagtdi Member Posts: 55
    From what I've read, a lot a '04 Prius owners are seeing 40MPG or less, and I can see why they are frustrated. At least with a diesel, when the oil situation gets bad in the USA, diesel owners can run their cars on transesterified soybean oil (biodiesel). How's that for being green?
  • rickroverrickrover Member Posts: 601
    You don't have to try to get good mileage out of a diesel like you do with a hybrid - it sounds like it's next to impossible to get 60 MPG from a Prius. A TDI on the other hand is easy to get good mileage from - just drive it like a regular car. I get just under 40 mpg in my Jetta TDI wagon with an automatic in mixed, mostly in-town driving. I don't baby it, I just drive it.

    The biodiesel idea is really interesting - people are running their diesels on recyled fast food frying oil and they run great on it. Do a google on biodiesel, very interesting reading. Plus if you like the way McDonanalds french fries smell you really like it because that's how a biodiesel exhaust smells.
  • erikerik Member Posts: 21
    I cant wait to test drive a new Passat TDI. Too bad it only have 8 valves per cylinder vs. Europe's more refined 16v engine. Too bad it is auto only, for now. I called Jennings in Glenview and they have three on the way. We will probably buy either the Passat TDI, Mercedes E-class, or the Jeep Liberty CRD. The company websites have more info on these diesel cars/SUVs. The performance on these cars ar e great. The 30 to 50 and 50 to 70 times are great compared to the base engines. Plus, the cars get 40 mpg. See the recent article in the WSJ and Washingont Post.
  • houstonkenhoustonken Member Posts: 28
    I am scheduled to test drive a diesel passat tomorrow. Sticker estimates 33 mpg in city and 38 mpg on highway. Only offered in GL & GLS trim with main differences being Monsoon stereo, moonroof, homelink and leather availability with $1500 price differential.

    Salesguy said they are selling at a little below sticker ... whatever that means. He was intentionally vague as to when the new Passat body style was coming out. My guess is that he knows exactly when, but doesn't want to cut himself off at the knees trying to sell a car with only 1.5 years left on the body style.

    Sticker is around $25,000. Newspapers ads are selling 4 cylinder gasoline Passat GLs for $18,000.

    Because Houston is not a diesel town, I'm planning on waiting a little bit to gauge low demand and make a lowball offer in a few months. I'll post my thoughts on the performance of the car this weekend.
  • rickroverrickrover Member Posts: 601
    I heard from my dealer this week too, they have a GLS wagon. I currently have an 03 Jetta TDI wagon.

    I'm interested in testing the TDI Passat, but like you, I'll be waiting until the next generation comes out before I'd consider trading the Jetta.
  • orangelebaronorangelebaron Member Posts: 435
    So VW does not sell TDI's again in NY. Is this because of government or because VW does not want their pollution rating to go up?

    The only way around it is to buy used...right?
  • pete14pete14 Member Posts: 11
    Hey does anybody have any real life data as to the MPG these baby's are getting. I have a long commute and the jetta is too small for the family.

    Thanks
  • rickroverrickrover Member Posts: 601
    I don't know about the 04 Passat but own an 03 Jetta TDI wagon and know a few people with TDI Bugs, Golfs and Jetta's. We all get as good or a little better mileage than the EPA estimate on the window sticker. I get just under 40 MPG in my automatic Jetta TDI wagon in everyday driving combination city/ highway. Straight highway I get 45 MPG or a little better which is exactly what the EPA estimates for my automatic.

    The most interesting thing is that you don't have to drive it a certain way. I don't think about how I drive it, I just drive it - floor it to pass and getting on the highway - I don't baby it and it returns awesome mileage.
  • dieselbreathdieselbreath Member Posts: 243
    It is very unfortunate that many individuals (and groups -- such as Sierra club) don't look at the big picture when hyping hybrids.
    As an engineer, I was strongly in favour of hybrid vehicles 2 decades ago. But seeing how they are implemented, it is a simple scientific fact that if every car in the US were replaced by a hybrid it would cause the largest environmental disaster in the history of this planet.
    But we're safe.
    It can't happen because there are not enough rare metals for the motors or rare/toxic/carcinogenic materials used in the batteries to build that many of these toys.
    Although some might argue that the massive pollution & energy cost (& environmental destruction) caused by the mining of the rare-earth metals used to manufacture these vehicles isn't a problem because we're just killing human and animal life on other continents, that is not true either -- because the pollution of the air and oceans eventually affects north america.
    Diesel engines built from cast-iron blocks with iron turbo housings and exhaust manifolds are the gentlest on our planet in terms of the creation of materials ... which is a huge but over-looked issue when buying a new vehicle (or a few tons of high-tech anything).
    And because diesels are so energy efficient, there is less demand for aluminum and other environmentally costly materials. Saving weight is not so important if your car gets 60 MPG on the highway (which the VW Lupo TDI does ... too bad we can't buy them in North America)
    BTW: The slowest cars that I see on I-5 between Seattle and Canada are almost always hybrids. I personally do not think it safe to drive 10 to 15 MPH slower than the rest of the traffic.
    Sadly, once you leave the city and deplete your batteries, your techno-wonder hybrid is just an over-weight, under-powered vehicle that consumed more resources in its creation than a few dozen "normal" cars.
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