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Lexus RX 330
I have read several articles and have several pics of the new RX330. I was wondering if anyone had any price estimates for the options / packages? Also, if lexus plans on a "special edition" RX330 - such as a coach edition. I have an RX300 silversport edition now.
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Aye: 26
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tidester, host
We desire the luxury of the Lexus. However, my wife needs a wheelchair/scooter hoist. Our current scooter and wheelchair require 40" of rear-opening height. We will be at the Lexus dealer with our tape measure as soon as the vehicle arrives. However, it is very doubtful that the RX330 will be sufficiently tall. :-(
I regret that Lexus does not build a minivan. It is my belief that some of the Lexus XUV buyers would actually opt for a luxury minivan. Such a van does not exist! Many believe that the upcoming Grand Sport Tourers (e.g. the Mercedes Vision concept vehicle) will fill this niche. Such vehicles are likely not going to be tall enough for us.
I guess that we are doomed to drive NICE minivans.
http://www.lexus.com/showroom/protection/mobility/faq
Also, printed specs on the new RX330 are;
Overall length 186.2 in
Overall width 72.6 in
Overall height 66.1 in (unloaded)
Cargo Capacity 38.3 cubic feet (rear seats forwrd) 84.7 cubic feet (rear seats folded)
In fact - the spare tire (which is currently located under the floor mat in the back is being moved to underneath the vehicle as most SUV's seem to have already, and there will be storage compartments with flip up doors to store items in.
I haven't even seen this as an option either.
If you want room for the kids than you are not the target Lexus is after with this vehicle.
One of the criticisms of the RX 300 was that it was attracting too many female buyers. Lexus wanted to "toughen up" the RX 330's image and make it appeal more to men, yet another reason not to offer a 3rd row.
If that is what Lexus is saying as the reason not to have a third row, I think that it's just marketing spin.
The current RX300 doesn't have a third row, and it attracts "too many" female buyers. So leaving a third row doesn't subtract those female buyers, or add male buyers.
The vehicle's styling update does not make it "macho" looking, IMHO, so Lexus hasn't done much there either. The sportier performance may help somewhat. But a lot of the improvements are squarely aimed at a more female audience -- upgraded interior materials, better ergonomics, knee air bag for the driver, automatic retracting cargo cover, DVD entertainment system for the kiddies, power liftgate, etc.
While it can be argued that the air suspension is for the boys, the "Access" mode to help with people climbing into the vehicle is 100% soccer mom.
Lexus isn't going to mess around with the formula that works. It'll refine it somewhat to try to improve sales among men. But that's not why the third row isn't there.
It'll be an outstanding seller, I think.
th near future.The new Rx330 looks nice too and they throw in lots of amenities. But I already focus myself on the big beast (the LX470)
Also, the new featues you mentioned are welcome by men and women alike. Whether you're a man or women, who wouldn't want upgraded materials, knee airbag, power liftgate, etc.? The RX 300 has a spot for a purse...now that's for women.
Also, toughening the image was not the only reason there is no 3rd seat. It's just one reason, perhaps even a small one. You said it best...Lexus does not want to mess with success.
The RX330 is an RX300 with morphing toward the station wagon of old. Just fine with me. Looks like the FX is going the same route.
It would be really nice if Lexus were to build a minivan, but Infiniti might just get there first and best. Infiniti obviously knows FWD or FWD torque bias is hazardous.
Wish the FX had the RX330 looks.
Okay?
Infiniti's intention in making the AWD rear-biased was not to make it less "hazardous," as presumptuously implied in a previous post with the usual lack of supporting evidence. Infiniti simply wants the vehicle to have a sporty handling character that is consistent with the vehicle's aims. Not to mention that the FX is based on the RWD FM platform that is the progenitor of the high-performance, RWD G35 and Z.
If you disagree, please provide a web site / auto journal quote from an Infiniti exec, stating that hazardous FWD-biased AWD is the reason they designed the FX's AWD to be RWD-biased. Thank you.
Something FWD, or FWD torque biased AWD SUVs cannot match.
I am intrigued. Have there been any published comments from Infiniti, or from autojournalists, that support that assertion? If not, then I'm afraid that's purely personal (and unreliable) conjecture.
Interesting how "hazardous" has now been rephrased as "less safe."
Nissan's Murano is an "SUV" available in pure FWD or FWD-biased AWD, and is "marketed to the SUV crowd, a crowd which in general, would expect 'extra' performance in adverse roadbed conditions." Thus Nissan obviously doesn't believe that FWD-biased AWD is "hazardous." They do clearly believe that RWD-biased AWD enhances sporty performance, hence its inclusion in the FX35/FX45.
Would there be anything concrete to back up the previous assertion, other than personal opinion? I'd love to see it, it'd be very enlightening. Thank you.
Any new updates on RX330 pricing, especially the packages? It's nice if they can hold the base prices down, but I wonder how much of the "goodies" will be in more expensive packages?
Anyone know when final pricing will be released?
2001 HL page 259 middle column:
"Installing snow tires on the front wheels only can lead to an excessive difference in road grip capability between the front and rear tires, which could cause loss of vehicle control"
Exact same wording is on the right column, page 283, of the 2001 RX300
owners manual.
Other than lower manufacturing costs one of the advantages of front engine FWD is the fact that the engine weight lends itself to better traction. So most FWD vehicles start out with a "less safe" driving circumstance, especially so in low traction conditions.
Anything you do to further exacerbate that FWD F/R traction differential simply brings you further into the realm of more hazardous vehicle operation.
Please remember that your original comment was "hazardous," and not "less safe." There is a substantial difference between the two.
Regardless, going back to the original point, the post above does not demonstrate that Infiniti "knows" that FWD-biased AWD is "hazardous." And thus influenced their decision to put RWD-biased AWD in the FX35/FX45. Again, please cite credible sources to corroborate your claim, rather than just reapplying personal interpretation. Thank you.
NOT!
I write these posts for those that can make logical connections, not for those that want absolute proof.
Some rather indicting statements were made, and thus information from credible, third-party sources was requested. Thus far none has been supplied.
What are called "logical connections" are not "logical" in this case. The connections cited so far are simply subjective interpretations tailored to support the conclusion from the same source. Possibly accurate, or possibly for the purpose of advancing a subjective agenda/bias. To demonstrate the former, it's important to have some level of proof before making such sweeping, indicting statements.
Else it's just simply personal belief without a verified basis in fact. Potential misinformation, innuendo, etc.
"... I write these posts for those that can make logical connections, not for those that want absolute proof."
Based on the leaping "logical connections" currently portrayed, the parallel for this is the difference of philosophy between the National Enquirer and the New York Times.
Thank you.
Now, if you can't make a logical connection between the statements in the RX and HL owners manuals, and lots of readily availabel information on the web, then I consider that to be YOUR personal, individual, problem.
I really don't see how I can be of any help in that case.
But think of it this way...
One of these days we will have an AWD system available that will reduce the driving (or even "lagging") engine torque to the front wheels as the VSC ECU detects that the front wheel's "side loading" is increasing.
In a panic braking circumstance some "VSC" systems will already reduce the braking HP to the front wheels in an understeering circumstance to allow more of their traction to be used where it is (presumably) needed most.
I have very little doubt that any automotive engineer involved in the design of an "SUV" would be well aware of the hazards of FWD or FWD torque biased SUV drivelines.
Let's say you are correct. Since there are so many SUV's, there must be a lot of automotive engineers involved in the design. Thus there must be many automotive engineers aware of the hazards of FWD or FWD torque biased SUV drivelines. And since there are so many engineers, there must be ample documentation on the hazards.
The documentation you cited did show a hazardous condition, but it was based on improper customer use of a vehicle. And not on the natural state of the vehicle.
Whereas the comments you've made simply say that FWD/FWD-biased AWD is hazardous, without such qualifications. Thus, can you please provide credible, third-party statements that say that FWD/FWD-biased AWD is hazardous?
Very Good explanation.
I'm curious, did you read through the entire article? I'm afraid that article does not say that FWD or FWD-biased AWD is hazardous when driven properly. It does say that improper driving technique with FWD can be hazardous. But it promotes the learning of appropriate driving techniques to react to the different behavior of FWD in snow.
Indeed, the author actually claims that FWD, properly driven, is better in snow and ice than RWD! That's the furthest thing from saying FWD is hazardous!
And, once you hit the "edge" of adhesion, such as in snow and ice, FWD makes for a much more controllable car - But You Have To Know How To Drive It!
Mind you, I don't necessarily agree with the author. And is he a credible source? All I could tell from his site is that he sells an additive to improve fuel mileage.
Given the above facts how anyone can think FWD isn't more hazardous, less safe, than RWD on a slippery roadbed surface is beyond me.
Now, if you can dispute those facts then I'm willing to listen.
Click on Lexus Vehicles and highlight RX330.
Click here 01/05/2003 2004 RX 330 Product Information - Preliminary
It gives a list of options and option packages. No pricing thought.
How about, "you have to be trained to overcome human nature".
In a panic, or surprise, strange, situation, what do our human instincts tell us to do?
Hesitate, pull-back, think-it-over, etc.
So our natural (untrained) instinct would be to lift the throttle, and maybe even apply the brakes. Not so bad in a RWD or RWD biased AWD, but FWD?
Flying simulators are used to train pilots to react instinctively to most predictable, surprise, out of the ordinary, events, otherwise that natural instinct to think it over would result in not just a few deaths.
So how many of today's drivers, overall, do you suppose have taken even a few seconds to prepare themselves for that moment of truth? If not, and they're driving a RWD they'll probably still survive.
In a FWD, be prepared (trained), be quick, or be dead!
That was the point I had hoped you would get from the link.
I am torn between the look of the rails on the new RX - not sure if I would prefer not having them.
Don't they defeat the areo-dynamics and increase wind noise?
Any thoughts?
Quieter, yes.
Agreed.
Given the above facts how anyone can think FWD isn't more hazardous, less safe, than RWD on a slippery roadbed surface is beyond me.
Disagree. That's where one's subjective interpretation substitutes for hard evidence.
Just because those forces are distributed does not make FWD "hazardous" as has been contended. That article cited, may I state again, says:
And, once you hit the "edge" of adhesion, such as in snow and ice, FWD makes for a much more controllable car.
That is one of the author's key points. That he thinks one is actually safer in a FWD vehicle in snow and ice than with RWD, so long as proper driving technique is employed. I actually don't agree with that specific statement, but it does counter the original assertion.
Moreover, evidence from a credible source was requested. The source quoted may not even be credible, based on what is available on that site. It's from a salesman of mileage additives, what are his credentials?
Regardless, the "evidence" presented actually refutes the entire original assertion with the above quote. Taking only the portions of it to support the argument is selective, and ignores the overall point of the cited article. Certainly not a logical path to debate, and not indicative of solid evidence. The bottom line of it is that the article (not me) says that FWD is better than RWD in snow and ice.
In a panic, or surprise, strange, situation, what do our human instincts tell us to do?
There's no doubt that human instincts can lead to negative situations. That applies to FWD, RWD, neutral AWD, etc. Yes, perhaps more so with some rather than the others, depending on the situations, but none are fundamentally hazardous as contended. Certainly not sufficient enough to apply the blanket assertion that FWD is hazardous.
But that's the point of driver education and training. Is it effective? It's probably inadequate overall. For example, drivers are told to stomp down and hold with ABS in place. Many drivers don't. It's a tough thing for many to overcome, particularly older drivers, but over time people learn the behavior. But all that said, it does not make ABS "hazardous." Just like it does not make FWD fundamentally hazardous.
Can you please provide credible, third-party statements that says that FWD/FWD-biased AWD is hazardous? Thank you.
ABS vs "threshhold braking".
I think you will agree that not many of us have enough practice or actual experience such that we can use threshold braking on ice and snow. ABS can, but cannot be fully optimized due to mechanical component delays. But even absent good optimiaztion, ABS has prevailed because unlike you and I, it can independently apply threshold braking on any of all four wheels.
And that brings us to the subject of "threshold throttling". In order for the FWD slippery condition procedure to work the driver must have perfected his/her threshold throttling procedure.
Okay, your seat of the pants "sensor" just told you that the front end has come unhinged, you don't have a clutch, and you aren't driving a FWD Cadillac (they added an over-running clutch between the transmission and the driven wheels for just this reason), now, just how quickly can you find that threshold throttle "sweet spot" wherein the engine is neither driving nor braking the front wheels (remember now that it is the front wheels that have just lost traction).
Or you could simply slide the transmission lever into neutral.
How does one prove the existence of nothing?
The Iraqis would like a creditable answer to that one real quick.
I think the effect on air drag will be entirely negligible. Noise is another matter, however.
tidester, host
In a FWD, be prepared (trained), be quick, or be dead!
Sorry, but I think the allegedly hazardous nature of FWD and FWD-biased AWD has been grossly exaggerated. Credible, third-party evidence has been repeatedly requested, and none has been presented. Unfortunately.
The only feedback offered is repeated, subjective interpretations of hypothetical scenarios. When taken out of context, they may seemingly support the argument, but then only based on subjective interpretation. When placed back into the correct context, they do not form an overall, hazardous conclusion. Frankly, one can make up any variety of scenarios that appear hazardous. That includes RWD.
So much for post #34. In the interest of getting this lengthy, increasingly off-topic discussion moving or completed, I will have to disregard further posts on this subject that strictly contain the already-expressed personal interpretations without hard, third-party, supporting evidence. Those types of posts have already been responded to, no need to drag it out. Perhaps the hosts may want to move this to the AWD/4WD forum, or the Winter Driving discussion.
Would it possible to provide a simple statement from an autojournalist or car company saying "FWD and FWD-biased AWD is hazardous?"
I'll offer one information bit (and I have many, but the TownHall software prevents me from posting more than one link).
E.g. take Tom & Ray, hosts of the radio program "Car Talk" and authors of a book or two:
... Front-wheel drive is much better than rear-wheel drive in the snow. ...
For most people ... a front-wheel-drive car with four good snow tires should be good enough. But if you really HAVE to drive in snow frequently, your best bet is something with all-wheel drive.
I will provide no subjective interpretation of the above. Safe to say, it is clear that they do not say that FWD or FWD-biased AWD is hazardous.
http://cartalk.cars.com/Columns/Archive/2000/March/05.html
Can you please provide credible, third-party statements that says that FWD/FWD-biased AWD is hazardous? Thank you.
It appears that HID headlamps can be acquired through more than one package, and as a standalone option? And it looks like the Power Liftgate isn't tied to a package, at least not yet.
Air suspension requires the larger Performance Package but I guess it makes sense.
Some will appreciate that 87 octane is still the fuel requirement. 91 recommended.
To quote Picard, "make it so."
Steve, Host
For instance, say you are looking for an RX with cloth seats - where would you find one? Would assume you would have to special order it.
I am curious to see what will be coming in on the new RX's for 2004. I bet the power lift door will be a "standard" option. Not that I am complaining - just wonder how Lexus comes up with what vehicle goes to which region in the U.S.
Unfortunately, it can be extremely difficult to special-order one. Some dealerships just won't do it.
In my region, the Lexus dealerships always bundle in certain options, some of which I have no interest in.
And by the way, isn't wind noise an indication of drag?
The early press indicated a switch to the ML type but the Lexus home pages state that the VC is a carry over to the RX330.
But mostly the discussion has centered around FWD vs RWD, clearly not an appropriate thread to take up in 4WD/AWD.
Since lots of folks have, and will continue to, purchase the RX series in FWD and given that the RX is being marketed as an SUV, I think this discussion is VERY appropriate to this very thread.
And I agree with everything said by Tom & Ray (not to go so far as to call them creditable overall), FWD will be better able to handle adverse roadbed conditions. But what that doesn't address is the point I have tried to make again and again, once you enter the twilight zone, the "edge", a RWD is much more predictable and lends itself to the reactions dictated by our core human nature.
If you haven't been "trained", don't know how to properly react at the instant a FWD reaches the "edge", then you're in for a very hazardous and frightening experience.
I strongly suggest that anyone expecting to drive a FWD vehicle, or an AWD with front torque bias, in wintertime in adverse roadbed conditions, snow and ice, read and understand the implications of the links I provided regarding Safe operation of FWD vehicles.
http://angelfire.com/biz/snwvlly/fwd.html
May I suggest a revision to your FWD safety desertation?
Human nature dictates that when we come upon a strange, surprise, situation, we stop and think, hesitate, before we react.
In this respect our human nature does us no real harm, is neutral, in a RWD vehicle. Human instinct would most often cause us to lift our foot from the gas pedal, not such a bad thing unless we happen to be driving a FWD vehicle or an AWD vehicle with torque bias predominantly to the front.
One test is counting the vehicles in the ditch after a snow/ice storm. Usually the 4WD/AWD SUVs outnumber the sedans (which by and large are FWD these days).
Maybe we can get Shifty to reopen the Which is better? AWD, FWD or RWD? discussion - interesting stuff, but again, getting a bit off-topic in here with all this detail.
Ah, here's one that's still active: AWD, FWD, RWD Wagons - Which is the Best?
Steve, Host