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Hybrid vs Diesel

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Comments

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    "Diesel-powered vehicles from huge earth movers to harvesting combines used in agriculture account for more pollution, especially microscopic soot linked to respiratory problems, than the trucks and buses on the nation's highways."

    http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/state/20040929-1518-wst-diesel- emissions.html
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    Hopefully this is not the same around the country. Was in the suburbs of NYC and saw a price of $2.26 for diesel and $2.01 for regular gas. Is there always this much of a disparity in the early fall? I was thinking of a TDI because of the mileage and price advantage of diesel. Any thoughts?
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    Falcone

    I test drove 2005 Jetta TDI 5-speed this weekend. It was very nice and I was amazed at the power up to about 50 mph. I realize a new 2005 is coming out in January maybe called a 2006.

    Anyway in Houston the diesel price is the same as Preium gas and is currently around $2.05 where regular is about $1.85

    YMMV,

     MidCow
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    I suppose this is just a temporary situation a diesel has always been less than regular. The TDI is indeed a very nice vehicle. Very solid build and handles quite nicely. It's a very good alternative to the hybrids, but only when they reduce the NOx with the better diesel fuels.
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    No , It could not be used in another non-HSD car. In a planetary gear ring you have the drive wheel output and three inputs: ICE, MG1, MG2 The actual drive ratio is dependent upon the speed and direction of the ICE, MG1 and MG2.

    And by the way the planetary CVT does have gears , there have been some mistatements that the Toyota eCVT does not have gears. The gears mess with the planetary ring.

    However, the eCVT could work with a conventional ICE or a diesel engine. It doesn't have to be the weenie tuned (.i.e. Atkinson cycle) small 1.5 Liter, 76 hp engine used in the Prius. Even TRD used a regular Echo Otto cycle engine in the race tuned performance (an oxymoron) Prius to obtain the blistering acceleration of 8.5 seconds from zero to 60 miles per hour.

    YMMV,

    MidCow
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    It looks like taxes on diesel are a big part of the difference. Also the difference from the East to the West Coast can be significant. Maybe has to do with requirements in each area.

    http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/oog/info/gdu/gasdiesel.asp
  • rfruthrfruth Member Posts: 630
    Anyone know if the tax on ULSD is the same as conventional diesel fuel ? I found some info thanks in part to the above link but what I found http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/servicerpt/ulsd/ is somewhat out-of-date.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    As close as I can tell the tax is the same for ULSD. I just bought 5 gallons of ECD-1 for my little Kubota and it was $2.53 per gallon in San Diego. Red dye diesel was $1.99.
  • rfruthrfruth Member Posts: 630
    What is red dye, plain ole diesel, why so cheap & why not use it in you tractor ? Don't get me wrong ECD-1 sounds great (wish we had it around here) but have to wonder if someone has to choose between $ 2.00 red dye or $ 2.50 ECD-1 for their TDI what motivation is there to use the more costly ULSD stuff ?
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Red dye is for off road use only. It does not have as much tax on it. They dye it so if you are found with that dye in your on road vehicle it is a big fine. I am running it in my tractor to see if it gives me more power as I have read. It has a higher Cetane rating than plain # 2. Plus the cheaper diesel is at least 500 PPM sulfur. It goes away in two years and most on road diesel will have to be ULSD. Just getting used to the higher price. five gallons lasts me a couple months in that Kubota. They just are very efficient little diesels. At least double the power per gallon used.
  • rfruthrfruth Member Posts: 630
    So what does the cop (whoever) do when they pull someone over who is driving a diesel, syphon out some fuel and check for red dye or will a receipt or the drivers word do ?
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    It leaves a very visible red residue on the filler spout. I don't know anyone that has gotten cited. It is generally sold for off-road and heavy equipment. The dealer will not let you pump it into your diesel PU truck. It is a federal law imposed by the IRS.

    http://www.deldot.net/static/mfta/del_dyed_fuel_law.html
  • sebring95sebring95 Member Posts: 3,241
    Many folks that drive diesels have tanks at home that are filled by a fuel distributor. You can buy non-taxed dyed fuel (for your tractors/equipment/etc.) and then pump it into your diesel car/truck. Not legal, but folks do it. Sometimes the state inspectors show up at agricultural auctions and swab the inside of tail pipes. If you come out and your vehicle is being loaded onto a trailer, you'll soon know why:) The fine is far more than you'll ever save in road tax!

    I have a 500 gallon tank that is filled with standard on-road BP diesel. My Jetta TDI runs substantially better on BP Supreme, but it's not worth the cost to have that delivered since the Jetta only uses a fraction of the fuel. The trucks run perfectly fine on #2 diesel. I just run on-road diesel in my tractors/bobcat because they don't use much fuel either. It's more of a convenience for my pickups so they don't have to stop for fuel. Both have auxilliary tanks and can run 800-900 miles between fuel stops if towing. 1500 miles on the rare instance they're not pulling.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Diesel hybrids a tough sell in passenger vehicles due to cost..:

    http://go.hotwired.com/news/autotech/0,2554,65273,00.html/wn_asci- i
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    If Honda brings the Accord Tourer i-CTDi diesel to America, Look out all you hybrids. That is one great looking car.

    'In our efforts to extend the Force's use of diesel vehicles, to aid both the environment and our fuel budget, our ongoing partnership with Honda and the new diesel accord enables us to achieve all these aims in one vehicle. The performance and reliability of Honda in front line operations have proven to be very successful and I have no doubt that the Accord's new diesel engine will continue that success'.

    http://www.wiltshire.police.uk/news/newsview.asp?id=501
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    From a press release:

    "Honda's new Accord 2.2 i-CTDi Sport has just set 19 world speed records and then achieved 3.07 litres / 100 km (92 mpg) fuel economy as an encore.

    Amongst the speed records set at a test track in Germany, which were all achieved in Production Car Class B (2000 - 2500 cc), the most impressive was an average speed of 130.38 mph over a 24-hour period. Two production cars, randomly selected by FIA officials, were used to undertake the speed records, and apart from the fitting of roll-cages, racing harnesses and radio equipment for track-to-pits communication, no other modifications were made to the cars.

    Following the speed record attempts, the same two cars were then driven 419 miles from Papenburg test track to Wiesbaden, near Frankfurt in order to complete the fuel economy run. The route comprised of a mixture of motorway and non-motorway driving, during which one of the Accords achieved a remarkable 92 mpg average."

    92 MPG over 419 miles - JAMMIN !!! It's only rated at 52.3 MPG, so I wonder what special driving tricks they used to get 92?
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    92 MPG over 419 miles - JAMMIN !!! It's only rated at 52.3 MPG, so I wonder what special driving tricks they used to get 92?

    Very good question if they used production cars like the article says.
    Maybe Xcel set them up, he gets 92 mpg US with his Insight...
  • ncskibumncskibum Member Posts: 42
    Whoever wrote the article was just a little out of date. Chevy/GM have a diesel hybrid available for commercial use this year. It was tested in Iraq over the last two years. I just looked at the web-site where the 1500 hybrid will be offered for general public. The only thing I disagree with is that GM has used the hybrid for generating electricity for contractor work rather than for inproving mileage.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Diesel engines are said to cost more to produce than gasoline engines, hence the reference to diesel-hybrid being a more expensive proposition.
  • electrictroyelectrictroy Member Posts: 564
    Diesels are ~$1000 more expensive, but then again so are hybrids.

    I'd like to see BOTH diesels & hybrids in the same car. For example, a 45 horsepower Lupo TDI with an electric motor to shrink acceleration from 15 to 10 seconds.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    I couldn’t tell how much more expensive diesel engines are to produce but they are claimed to be. And then you add cost of electric power and you have even greater cost. That was the point to begin with.
  • sebring95sebring95 Member Posts: 3,241
    The most expensive part of a diesel engine is the turbo. The VW TDI diesel is no more expensive (sticker price) than the turbo-charged gas engine.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I think Honda will be putting more of their effort into the diesel than hybrid. They realize that the hybrid is to complex and expensive.

    http://www.honda.co.uk/
  • electrictroyelectrictroy Member Posts: 564
    I hope you're right.

    As for diesel costs, what does it matter? Even is gasoline cost $2/gallon & diesel cost $2.10/gallon, the diesel will take you ~1.5 times farther, so you're saving money.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Last time I seriously looked at diesel price was in Seattle couple of weeks ago.

    Regular: $2.07
    Diesel: $2.49

    I wonder if ULSD will add to the cost of the oil.

    As for additional cost of diesel engine, I have heard that it requires more attention due to the very nature of diesel engines, besides turbo chargers of course.
  • electrictroyelectrictroy Member Posts: 564
    Wow. Diesel is a lot cheaper in the east. Like I said, about 10 cents difference.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Here is TX, diesel is comparable to premium grade gasoline.
  • rfruthrfruth Member Posts: 630
    Same here in the Houston area, plain ole diesel fuel at the pumps (no ULSD or TxLED program yet) is now the same cost as "premium" gasoline where before (6 months ago) diesel fuel was priced like "regular" gasoline.

    Is this price increase just one of those things or are we already paying for ULSD ?

    http://www.tnrcc.state.tx.us/air/ms/fuelprograms.html#dsl1
  • fenris2fenris2 Member Posts: 31
    Probably both to a degree.

    As far as I know, diesel is a seasonal fuel in that it is made from the same/similar processes chain that heating oil is made from. So when more heating oil is demanded, less diesel is made - hence prices rise on tightened supplies. Conversely spring/summer sees cheap diesel.

    I believe the estimates were about +$.10 /gal for ULSD. However, I am not sure they have the specific cetane levels (etc) in the fuel specced out yet, so there is slop on both sides of that
  • sebring95sebring95 Member Posts: 3,241
    I've been using BP/Amoco diesel supreme whenever possible. It's a 30ppm 50 cetane fuel that has very little odor and is as clear as water. My TDI runs far better on this fuel, and depending upon the supplier is usually $.05-$.10 per gallon more than the closest truck-stop crud.

    I think we might be over the hump. Diesel dropped $.20/gallon overnight at the truckstop I travel past every day. It was $.05 more than 87 octane gas, which is about normal for winter here. For the last 5 years at least, diesel is $.05 more in the cold months and $.05 less in the warm months. Give or take a few pennys here and there.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    measures, not the ENTIRE BIG PICTURE which is all the OTHER harmful chemicals that exist in more damaging quantities in diesel fuel than in gasoline exhaust.

    The components of diesel exhaust (DE) emissions are a public concern for the following reasons:

    Emissions from diesel engines include over 40 substances that are listed by the EPA as hazardous air pollutants. Components of DE contain potential cancer causing substances such as arsenic, benzene, formaldehyde, nickel, and PAHs. The diesel particulate matter (DPM) is very small (90% are less than 1um by mass), making DPM easy to respire into the deep lung. DPM has hundreds of chemicals adsorbed to their surfaces, including many known or suspected carcinogens. There are many irritants and toxic chemicals in the gaseous phase of DE. Oxides of nitrogen, component of urban smog, are in the gaseous phase of DE. There is a likelihood that people in both ambient and occupational settings can be exposed to DE. DE has the potential to cause adverse health effects including cancer, pulmonary and cardiovascular diseases. Studies show workers exposed to higher levels of DE are more likely to develop lung cancer. In 1990, the state of California identified DE as a chemical known to cause cancer. The International Agency for Research on Cancer has concluded that DE probably causes cancer in humans. The EPA has proposed classifying DE as a probable human carcinogen.

    Acute Effects of Diesel Emmission Exposure:
    Workers exposed to high concentrations of diesel exhaust have reported the following short-term health symptoms:

    irritation of the eyes, nose and throat,
    lightheadedness,
    heartburn,
    headache,
    weakness, numbness, and tingling in extremities,
    chest tightness,
    wheezing, and
    vomiting.

    I'm sorry, Troy, but there are no studies that link these sorts of health issues to gaoline exhaust.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    According to the Santa Barbara County Air Pollution Control District (APCD) 2001 Clean Air Plan, 1999 base year NOx emissions from marine vessels were more than those from all on-road motor vehicles, and comprised just over a third of the total NOx emissions inventory. There is a growing awareness internationally of the significance of shipping emissions. Ships are increasing in number, size, carrying capacity and speed, while fuel use is increasing proportionally. In addition, residual heavy fuel oil – the most common fuel used in large ship engines – is decreasing in quality, while a greater number of engines are being designed to use this lower-quality fuel.

    This makes the pollution from Modern vehicles (those built since 1980s) INSIGNIFICANT compared to the major sources of pollution. These ships on our rivers and coastal harbors burn bunker oil which is as much as 3000 ppm sulfur. Most dirty diesel is less than 500 ppm with the 2006 mandated ULSD it will be 15-30 ppm. The ships that are causing much of the smog in coastal CA. are not included in that mandate. I don't know how to make it any clearer for those with blinders, that think our environmental regulators at the EPA & CARB are doing a bang up job. In short they are the ones that SUCK not the vehicles that save fuel by burning diesel. People in California are paying the price with this smog so people in Arizona can get there cheap TVs & Hondas from overseas.

    http://www.sbcapcd.org/itg/download/awma03finalpaper.pdf
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I'm sorry, Troy, but there are no studies that link these sorts of health issues to gaoline exhaust.

    My understanding is that only the CARB states have the cleaner gasoline. That is how they get the higher EPA ratings. I know the 45 states gas has a higher sulfur content. That is why cars in those states stink. You really notice it when you leave CA and go to AZ or NV.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    But the issue on hand is cars, and related technologies. We are not going to talk about oil burning factories, are we?

    That said, at a gas station couple of days ago here in TX:
    87 grade: $1.90
    91 grade: $2.00
    93 grade: $2.10
    Diesel: $2.19

    So a 15% "premium" over regular unleaded gasoline for diesel continues. If ULSD adds another dime to the tag, the premium grows to 20%.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    So a 15% "premium" over regular unleaded gasoline for diesel continues. If ULSD adds another dime to the tag, the premium grows to 20%.

    The very minimum increase in efficiency of the diesel over gas ICE is 25% so you still have a net gain. Plus our dependence on foreign oil will never be resolved with gas burning cars. Even with the lousy ethanol E85 it only saves 15%. Then you get 25% worse mileage. Where with B100 biodiesel you can tell the Middle East to drink their oil while you refill at McDonald's. Gas engines do not offer any real alternatives where diesel engines do... I still think all electric is the best or serial diesel electric.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Just for comparison ULSD at the SOCO station I use sells for $2.529 two weeks ago. They were selling Premium unleaded for $2.599. I use the ECD-1 in my little tractor and can tell no difference, except the puff of smoke when it starts is gone.

    Gas Diesel price comparison...
    http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/oog/info/gdu/gasdiesel.asp
  • rfruthrfruth Member Posts: 630
    Some of the extra cost of ULSD my be built in already but my question is this, lets imagine its 2007 and you have a new TDI designed for and burning ULSD, how clean will it be compared to a gas burner or hybrid of the same vintage ?
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The only info I can find is on the European diesels. My understanding is the new MB, BMW, Accord and VW diesels all pass the very stringent Euro4 emissions test. As far as Greenhouse gas those diesel cars exceed all but a few of the hybrids and CNG vehicles. The CNG Civic is cleaner than any of the hybrids. If that is you goal go CNG. A lot of cab drivers use CNG cars in San Diego.

    For any vehicle certified to better than Euro 4 emission standard, the noxious emissions score is 9. To achieve this score a vehicle must already be certified to ADR 79/01 in Australia.

    http://www.epa.nsw.gov.au/air/gvgscores.htm
  • electrictroyelectrictroy Member Posts: 564
    diesels are already cleaner than gasoline in every category except NOx: - 2000 VW Manual Beetle (grams/mile)

    ----- Gas TDI
    NOx 1.3 2.7
    PMs ----- ----- (not measured)
    CO2 7.0 4.7
    CO 1.10 0.01
    HC 0.15 0.00 (evaporative)

    VW TDI diesels have already been promoted by fueleconomy.gov's green score:

    2000 = 1
    2005 = 6

    I fully expect to see 2007 = 9 with the European clean-diesel technologies. In other words, equal to a gasoline car.

    troy
  • SylviaSylvia Member Posts: 1,636
    I deleted a few of the "no, you don't listen" "No, you listen" posts

    They are attacking and insulting. Either agree to disagree and move on or stop posting. The bickering needs to stop.
  • electrictroyelectrictroy Member Posts: 564
    "The components of diesel exhaust (DE) emissions are a public concern for the following reasons (snip)"

    Every flaw you list is a flaw of gasoline too. Gasoline has PMs. Gasoline has carcinogens. Gasoline is NOT clean.

    Troy
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    For those truly interested in cutting loose from foreign oil, Biodiesel is the answer. Nothing else on the US market comes close.

     Dr. Bernd Pischetsrieder, chairman of the board of management of Volkswagen, remarked that while Volkswagen will eventually offer hybrids, it won’t be soon.

    Speaking to journalists in London, prior to the SMMT Annual Dinner, where he was guest speaker, he said: “We are not interested in making cars which don’t make money.”

    Biodiesel, he suggested, is the short-term answer and confirmed that his company was working in this area.

    http://www.greencarcongress.com/biodiesel/index.html
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    In the battle of Hybrid versus Diesel, electrictroy has posted that the EU rated the diesel Lupo the "world's cleanest car" back in 2002.

    Does anyone have a link to any page that says that? I have googled my tail off trying to confirm or deny that statement, and cannot find a thing either way.

    I would REALLY be interested to know:

    A) if they really declared such, and
    B) what their criteria was.

    I can't for the life of me see how the emissions of a diesel could ever be declared "cleanest in the world."

    Any links or ideas, anyone?
  • electrictroyelectrictroy Member Posts: 564
    I HAD a link, but it's dead. The EU apparently deleted the webpage as "old news".

    As for criteria, the European Union measures all the same values we do (NOx, CO, HC), but they also include CO2, because they are obligated to meet the Kyoto Treaty. And with the Lupo 3L TDI's 90mpg economy, it's CO2 is only *half* as much as a Prius or Civic.

    So the CO2 is likely the reason it won.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Volkswagen claims that the Lupo 3L can actually do better than 3 liters per 100 kilometers of consumption, although we were not able to test this as we were limited to 3 days of in-town driving since the low-sulphur fuel required for this car is not available here and VW only had limited supplies. None-the-less, we never saw less than 68 miles per gallon during all our around town driving - pretty impressive.

    http://www.vwvortex.com/artman/publish/article_319.shtml
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    I suppose since the 2002 champeenship (unconfirmed) the Lupo fell back into the pack for the EU award in 2003 and 2004?

    So far I have seen NOTHING ANYWHERE on the web that says anything about the EU awarding "worlds cleanest car" to anyone in 2002, 2003, or 2004.

    Did they discontinue the award after 2002?
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Perhaps the standards have changed now. Although not exactly EU, but Civic Hybrid dubbed the cleanest vehicle in UK. Prius came in second, and Vauxhall Corsa 1.3 CTDi is third. What happened to Lupo?

    Here is a link.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    The Lupo is no doubt very clean for a diesel. See this volkswagon PDF file:

    http://www.volkswagen.co.uk/assets/Environmental%20Report.pdf

    But in all their bragging on the Lupo in that document, they NEVER say anything about it ever being rated "cleanest car in the world" which you know the marketing types who produce reports like this would have jumped all over....
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Wolfsburg. Gerhard Plattner, the Austrian journalist and long-distance specialist, has once more entered the Guiness book of records driving a Volkswagen. At the beginning of November, the world champion in economic driving covered a distance of 4,683 kilometres through 20 European countries in a standard Lupo 3L TDI. He achieved his aim of carrying out this journey - which started in Oslo, Norway and finished in The Hague in The Netherlands - with just 100 euros in fuel costs without any problem at all. In fact, all he eventually needed was 90.94 euros, which corresponds to an average consumption of 2.78 litres / 100 km.

    Gerhard Plattner completed his first successful 100 euro eco-tour in August this year. In a standard Polo TDI, he drove 3,129 kilometres through 15 European countries. His average fuel consumption over this distance was just 3.95 litres / 100 kilometres with fuel costs of 90.89 euros.

    Both of these record journeys were by no means carried out at a snail's pace. The average speed of the first eco-tour was 81.69 km/h and the average speed of the Lupo 3L TDI was 80.76 km/h. The eco-tours were accompanied and monitored by independent experts.

    The Volkswagen Lupo 3L TDI was ranked first for the fourth time in a row in the environmental car ranking of the prestigious German institute "Öko-Trend". This repeated success was achieved, alongside the extremely low consumption figures, through low levels of emissions and also the production line which is oriented around ecological aspects.

    http://www.canadiandriver.com/news/021114-3.htm
  • electrictroyelectrictroy Member Posts: 564
    When VW drove the Lupo TDI around the world, they averaged 99 miles per gallon.

    Impressive.

    And practical. We're not talking about a 2-seat car here (insight), or something from the Jetsons (the 1 Liter/240 mpg car), but a 4-seat car with styling similar to a Golf/Jetta Wagon and plenty of room for groceries.

    Troy
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