Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!
Hybrid vs Diesel
As far as I can see, ULSD and future hybrid offers will hit the US market at roughly the same time. Currently the market is limited for both (Prius, Civic and Insight are the only hybrids currently available, Diesels are mostly trucks territory due to emission laws).
So.
Both ways, the immediate advantage is increased mileages. Hybrid technology still has to prove itself on a large scale (we have to acknowledge for the fact that all three offers come from ultra-reliable Japanese manufacturers). Diesel technology, OTOH, is well proven. Hybrids lead when it comes to emissions, which are a problem for Diesels. Diesels undoubtedly lead on the fun to drive front.
I think it's clear by now that EU has made its choice: Diesel. The tax policy sure helps. Diesel went as far as to equip vehicles traditionally associated with pleasure (example: BMW 330Cd). Manufacturers are no longer afraid to boast about their oil burning engines. From the midsize sedan category and up, the majority of sales on this continent are now Diesels. The only available hybrid here is the Prius and its market share is confidential at best.
What choice will the US make?
So.
Both ways, the immediate advantage is increased mileages. Hybrid technology still has to prove itself on a large scale (we have to acknowledge for the fact that all three offers come from ultra-reliable Japanese manufacturers). Diesel technology, OTOH, is well proven. Hybrids lead when it comes to emissions, which are a problem for Diesels. Diesels undoubtedly lead on the fun to drive front.
I think it's clear by now that EU has made its choice: Diesel. The tax policy sure helps. Diesel went as far as to equip vehicles traditionally associated with pleasure (example: BMW 330Cd). Manufacturers are no longer afraid to boast about their oil burning engines. From the midsize sedan category and up, the majority of sales on this continent are now Diesels. The only available hybrid here is the Prius and its market share is confidential at best.
What choice will the US make?
Tagged:
0
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
Well, it means that you haven't driven any modern Diesel
Also, consider the UK where Diesel fuel is actually more expensive than gasoline... This doesn't prevent Diesel sales from skyrocketing, even there.
The "hybrid" part is called for more than just an engine band-aid in the future anyway.
Once the EPA mandates low-sulfur diesel fuel (no more than 80 parts per million), then we can apply modern common-rail delivery direct-injection systems and modern catalysts and particulate traps that will allow a diesel-powered car to meet the strict ULEV standard for exhaust emissions. And applying that to minivans, pickup trucks and SUV's could mean we raise the fuel mileage of these larger vehicles as much as 35-40%! :-)
Hybrids deliver something uncommon, an important marketing factor. Prius offers incredibly clean emissions, a remarkably smooth drive (that's dead quiet at times), and an interior that's completely unique... besides delivering great MPG.
JOHN http://john1701a.com
"Dirty" and "Diesel" is now an oxymoron, kind of. Diesel fumes are the exception now. It's been a while since I've seen a Diesel passenger car stink from the back, and remember that I'm surrounded by them. Let alone a "smoking Diesel". These are close to nonexistent now, plain and simple. Even 36-tons trucks.
I was in fact looking into the future. It looks like the next hybrids will hit the market at the same time U(ltra)L(ow)S(ulfur)D(iesel) will be available too. Hence the topic. With Jeep (Liberty), Mercedes (E320 CDI), VW (90 and soon 130+hp TDI) starting to bring up to date Diesels as soon as this year or next year, I think it will be interesting to see what happens.
TB
Would really like a diesel as my work car.
but if it cannot be sustained to engine speeds where it constitutes significant power, its value to rapid motoring is limited. Such has been the case for all diesels which we have seen in the USA to date
When is the last time you've driven a VW TDI?
Yes, the Golf, Jetta, and New Beetle TDI can do 120 mph...I guess that's not fast enough.
70-100 mph in 5th gear? Not too much trouble. It suprises some owners (friends) of more sporting cars (350Z, WRX, & G35c) how effortlessly it does this.
IMHO, the 2 things that kills the joy of driving are the laggy drive by wire system and the heavy dual-mass flywheel.
You you said might be true for the old diesels which has been permanently engraved in people's minds, but modern diesel is available in the US.
Due to its power-torque characteristcs and its tall gearing, you can't drive it like a gasser. The best performance really comes from short shifting.
As you said, it is a different way to drive but probably not one that I would find as satisfying as that which I currently prefer. The engines that I've found most exhilarating are those with thrust that continues to build to a high rpm limit. Such engines typically don't reach their stride until about 4k rpm, long after most diesels are ready for the next gear. But if and when a diesel with the performance of the 330d reaches the USA at the price of a Honda, perhaps I'll seek a test drive.
An engine with lots of low rpm torque, but little power, gives the IMPRESSION of speed without the danger actually moving quickly.
"1. In California diesel particulate matter (PM) accounted for approximately 70 percent of all air toxics in 2000 and the average potential cancer risk associated with diesel PM is over 500 excess cases per million people;
This will make it a long road to hoe as they say. Good luck to them.
* GM owns Isuzu, which is the first Diesel engine manufacturers volume wise, before Peugeot; moreover it collaborates with Fiat for yet more engines;
* Ford has developed Diesel engines for the EU market, and is cooperating with Peugeot for more;
* Chrysler is now owned by Daimler and therefore has all of Mercedes' Diesel engines at its disposal.
So, if hybrids fail, they can switch easily... And the same is true for Honda, Toyota and Nissan as well.
The 90hp VW TDI might actually achieve adequate performance if it were augmented by electric drive (provided that the increase in mass could be minimized).
Driving the TDI...compared to my last car...Camry V6, it just about equals its in gear passing acceleration times.
0-60 & 1/4 mile times are two common references that gives us an idea of performance. Though it doesn't give the whole story.
Since that is one metric we're looking at, how about another one? How about Handling tests. How about Braking?
I'll be very suprised if you're going to tell me that the Insight and Prius both offer superior handling to a Golf TDI, Jetta TDI, and New Beetle TDI.
http://www.mpt.org/motorweek/reviews/rt2102a.shtml
For CARB, it was discussed in other threads....the head guru at CARB is now starting to embrace modern diesels
For proof: see The Future of Diesel in Sporty Cars -- any chance? thread in the Coupes, Convertibles, and Sports Cars section, message #307
Here's another wildcard....alternative fuels.
You and others have also referred to "in gear" acceleration as important to you. although I'm not certain what this means, I'll assume it refers to acceleration without shifting to a more appropriate gear. For my part, it is unimportant how a car accelerates in a particular gear so long as there is an appropriate ratio available for the conditions of the moment (if shifting were an obstacle, I'd drive an automatic).
It CAN be said that teh VW's acceleration is better than other cars of comparable fuel economy except perhaps the Honda Insight (depending upon whose test numbers you compare).
How many people actually do 0-60 WOT sprints in their daily routine? Maybe you do...but the customers who buy Hybrids or diesels tend to be light on the throttle to maximize their fuel efficiency.
If you're looking to miminize your 0-60 times...you're looking at the wrong segment of the market. The customers in this market are not as concerned with 0-60 acceleration times, they are more concerned with fuel efficiency.
Have you driven a hybrid? Me, yes. Overall would you consider it to be more fun to drive than a VW TDI?
Well, go drive a TDI... See for yourself... And you'll learn that torque matters more than power! It's as simple as that. Power dictates the speed you can reach, torque dictates *how fast* you can reach it... 90hp can lead you at a fast enough speed, and 155 lbft help you get there with ease...
When a Hybrid/diesel/AFV or whatever provides competitive performance at a competitive value, I'll consider it.
I've always looked at the top speed for a single reason: the engine speed at which it is attained. Only one magazine out of the four I read provides this information , the others do from time to time. It tells me whether the gearbox is adequately "geared".
But I always look carefully at in gear acceleration times (mostly 60 to 100 kph, 80 to 120 kph) because that's what real day driving is really about... The only moment when anyone is bound to use full thrust is when passing. And the faster you pass the better. Having tested both the 325i (192hp) and the 330d (183hp), I can witness that the latter is much more at east when passing, downshifting or no
As for going fast Honda's upcoming ('05-'06?) Acura DNX hybrid will boast 400hp! Don't forget that electric motors deliver max torque when power is first applied. 40mpg sportscars anyone?
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
Power is work per unit TIME. Acceleration is the first derivative of velocity, i.e. the RATE OF CHANGE of velocity with respect to TIME. Torque is rotational force and is time independent unless the RATE of rotation is accounted for, in which case it represents POWER. The relationship is P=rpm*T/k (k=constant). At a low rate of rotation, torque must be large to generate substantial power. If one is concerned for the magnitude of work that can be performed, torque is the relevant measure, but if the concern is the RATE at which work is performed, power is all important.
In a real world engine the torque-speed characteristic is seldom linear therefore peak power does not adequately define an engines capability, but it does suggest rough limits. The integral of power over the useful rpm range is more difinitive, consequently SOME diesels may perform better than their peak power alone would suggest as compared to an Otto cycle engine of similar peak power, but not miraculously so, and they are often limited by a relatively narrow useful rpm range.
>> light on the throttle to maximize their fuel efficiency.
That's not true for Prius owners!
By watching the Multi-Display, they eventually discover that BRISK acceleration is more efficient with that particular design. Being light on the throttle actually lowers the MPG, unless you are driving in "stealth" mode (up to 42 MPH using only electricity without the engine running).
So when the light turns green, my Prius is typically several car-lengths ahead of everyone else.
JOHN http://john1701a.com
>>dictates *how fast* you can reach it
If a physics refresher was unnecessary, then that statement must have been a typo.
http://compactcars.about.com/library/bltest_golftdi.htm
And POWER at a given rotational speed equals to... torque multiplied by rotational speed. Clear, now? And this is why PEAK power is so irrelevant to my eyes.
If you want sub 10 seconds 0-60 sprints, get a Toyota Echo or Civic HX.
or for us TDI folks, chip/tuning box it and add larger injector nozzles.
Hybrid owners get a $2000 tax incentive
Diesel owners...many of us are trying to get Biodiesel and many of us run Biodiesel...a DOE approved Alternative Fuel.
I know little of the bio-diesel market. Is it less expensive than petro-diesel? How does its energy content compare? Are there special maintenance considerations?
Right now it is more expensive as soy oil prices currently dictate it. There's also the ability to use WVO or Waste Vegetable Oil, used restuarant oil.
try http://www.biodiesel.org
Aside from price, the other drawback is increased NOx emissions.
It reduces emissions across the board, except NOx.
It has a 3.2:1 energy conversion, basically it produces more 3x more energy than the amount of energy it requires to make the fuel. Ethanol is less than 1:1, thus as actual performance shows, decreased fuel economy.
FOr modern diesels, the Biodiesel will clean the fuel system, so initially you'll change the fuel filter sooner.
For older diesels, you may need to change some rubber seals.
Horsepower=(Torque * RPM)/5252
You respond that power is power, etc. I respond that I don't give a quack about 0-60 times. I don't drive my cars at high rpm's, drop the clutch and squeel the tires, trying to achieve some 0-60 to impress the teenybopper girl in the passenger seat.
I keep my engines in the 2000-2500 rpm range, almost never do I go anymore. I don't rev much. I am easy on the throttle (low vacuum = less stress on all components and leaner mixtures so the gas don't wash the oil of the cyl walls). I try never to lug the engine, which is horrible on the lower end.
Low torque gasser engines achieve high theoretical hp by rating the engines at 5000rpm or more. I could care less. That's not my style of driving. That's not the style of driving of anyone whom I know except the kid down the street with the primered astro van and the thump thump speakers.
In the rpm band I like to drive, a high torque engine is preferable. The gassers probably haven't even caught up with the power of the TDI in that rpm band.
High torque diesels fit my style of driving very well. I don't care about how much power is generated above 3000 rpm.
I like cars that handle tightly. I like cars that get great mpg and have decent acceleration. I like repairing my own cars. I've rebuilt a couple of engines in my day. I like making my cars last a long time. I like having cars with lotsa utility. You know, from another board, I really like shifting my own gears.
I think I am an enthusiast, just not a full throttle guy anymore. I disagree with the point that I am not an enthusiast. I think I'm at least the enthusiast as the dude with the aluminum-winged automatic neon who's knowledge of cars and driving includes: (1) put VTEC stickers on the car; (2) pay someone to put a coffee can exhaust (which detroys what little torque he had); and (3) mash the right pedal when the light turns green.
The next generation of Prius is expected in just 6 months.
JOHN http://john1701a.com
For my part, I don't avoid using any part of my cars capability (top speed and collision mitigation features excepted) otherwise I would consider myself foolish to buy it. In my daily driver I routinely shift in the 3500-4500 range in liesurely driving but excursions to 6500 are not uncommon under full throttle acceleration. I avoid cosmetic accoutrements of any sort but the right pedal gets at least as much exercise as required to maintain position in traffic.
I suppose your style explains why there are diesels, and why I avoid them.
I don't know. I think there are plenty of people who drive like me. Rather gently from stoplight to stoplight. I don't see many people winding their cars out (especially since most drive autos that wouldn't let them wind them out).
>You say that you like cars with "decent acceleration" but are not a "full throttle guy" which suggests that you must buy cars with much larger engines than necessary for your expected level of performance.
Large engines, not really. I usually drive a 4 cyl, with a stray v6 or two being the exception.
I've driven the TDI Jetta and it had good acceleration, as guaged by my seat of the pants. I didn't wind it out, although I know that diesels don't wind well anyway, and wouldn't have whether it was a diesel or a gasser.
It was just a few years ago that nothing except a Mustang or Camaro had more than 150 hp. Now everyone thinks that compact cars are underpowered if they don't have 200-250 hp.
Today, as you note, the bar has been raised and the average level of performance is considerably higher. Unless one is fortunate enough to only drive where traffic density is so low as to be irrelevant, that average is the measure of of a current vehicle.
>> population in which one must operate.
If every vehicle on the road could accelerate to 60 MPH in less than 8 seconds (ignoring the fact that a loaded truck couldn't), the traffic speed on the highways wouldn't be any faster. The flow is already maximized (above the legal limit). Having the ability to accelerate faster really doesn't accomplish anything.
Plus, there are the laws of nature that will insure cruising speeds won't increase. Snow, Ice, Rain, Fog, and how far your lights illuminate at night requires slower speeds regardless of how quickly a vehicle can accelerate.
We have reached (or are very close to) the point of diminishing returns after over 40 years of continuous improvement, where more powerful vehicles don't provide any benefit (other than marketing appeal). It's pretty obvious too. How many times do you get stuck behind a slow merging vehicle that could easily accelerate faster, but the driver simply doesn't push down more on the pedal? I see it all the time when driving my Prius. Even though their vehicle is capable of more, they don't use that power already available.
JOHN http://john1701a.com