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Jeep Liberty Diesel

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  • winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
    Thanks for your input. I hope it is that simple. I checked the hose clamps (the ones I could get to) a few weeks ago and they were all snug. I hope it is something that simple. I will find out later to-day.
  • winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
    I was able to get to the dealer but the lack of power seemed to indicate that the engine was not getting any boost from the turbocharger. As to the weather, it is 12 C right now and raining heavily.

    If the mass airflow sensor had failed, then I would have gotten some lights on the dashboard. EGR seemed to be okay because it never stalled but the idle was rougher when waiting at a traffic light.

    I do not think it was the transmission controller. I was able to get to third gear and the RPMs were not excessive. It felt like the engine air supply or fuel supply was being strangled. The one to two shift was firmer/harsher than normal though. I actually like a firmer shift so I may ask the dealer if they can re-program the trans controller to do this. A firmer, quicker shift is actually better for the trans (less heat, less friction).

    To everyone, your input has been valuable. Thanks. :)
  • winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
    I bought new tires elsewhere and sold the OEM tires back to the dealer but had only 111 miles on them when I did that. I do not know if the dealer will buy back your tires with 3K miles on them, so you might want to consider putting an ad in your local newspaper and get rid of them that way. About 50 to 60 per tire is a good price to ask for them.
  • caribou1caribou1 Member Posts: 1,354
    The funny thing about the mass airflow sensor is that it can fail and give a still (fixed) value that will not tickle the CPU. In fact there is very little difference in the output signal coming out of this device and we should be able to shunt it with a simple component. Bosch published litterature on the new hybrid sensors including the plot of the output signal versus massflow. It's so simple that I'd want to get rid of it :P
  • winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
    It amazes me that a component like the mass airflow sensor will not set off the OBD CPU if it fails. Someone must have been asleep when they came up with that idea.
  • mdamickmdamick Member Posts: 277
    Mine has done that about 3 times.
    Twice when my wife was driving & once while I was driving.
    After I shut it off & restarted it runs just fine.
    I have yet been able to figure out what is going on.
  • caribou1caribou1 Member Posts: 1,354
    Well, if you search for Bosch hybrid sensors, you get here:
    http://aa.bosch.de/advastaboschaa/kidownload?publication=1&cl_id=20&pos=1&attrv_- id=1039

    Now with a bit of mathematics knowing that the engine has 1.4 liter of displacement per revolution and the mass of air being 1.293 grams/liter, you will find that:
    - idling 800 rpm >> 2VDC
    - accelerate from 800 rpm >> 2.5 VDC
    - stable 2000 rpm >> 3VDC
    - accelerate from 2000 rpm >> 4VDC

    If this is chinese to you, I will tell you more tomorrow!
    It's my time to go home now :blush:
  • faroutfarout Member Posts: 1,609
    On my CRD that would be in 4th gear. I wonder if you are in 5 OD at 50mph. Might want to take it up to 60mph and lower it down, and see if it reads the same.

    Farout
  • faroutfarout Member Posts: 1,609
    At 300 miles I got $75. each. At 3,000 miles You might be lucky and get perhaps $40. each.

    Farout
  • faroutfarout Member Posts: 1,609
    I had my oil changed on the 16th of Jan. and the CRD was ready to go the Service manager put the CRD on the lift-rack and called me to look at the fuel Sep. Filter. He gave me a paper on how to change and drain the water off. The instructions went half way down the the paper. After seeing this I said no thanks, I just don't have the skills, or patience. I turn into a "Incredible Hulk" when doing car or repair. The things that can come out of my mouth are not what my family and neighbors should hear. So to maintain my Christian testimony and standing with my family and neighbors I let the dealer do it. I am sure the stress relief has added years to my life....Lol.
    Oh I almost forgot, the service manager brought me a qt of PS anti-gell Cetane booster and said this is what they use on the Dodge diesel, and suggested I use it in less than 15 degree F temps. This gets rather confusing with so many choices and the many different advisers.

    Farout
    Farout
  • winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
    The dealer just called and found the problem. The oil line on top of the turbocharger was leaking. I am assuming that this is the oil return line. They stated that the line had come loose but was not off altogether. They do not think there was any damage to the turbocharger.

    They ordered a new line and it will be in on Monday. I was initially confused on how this could cause a power loss but it finally hit me that the crankcase is a closed system. Air was being pulled in through the break in the return line and acted like a big vacuum leak. Some oil leaked out, but how much I do not know.
  • craigs1969craigs1969 Member Posts: 20
    Chevrolet's first diesel (Europe
  • fordformefordforme Member Posts: 44
    That sounds pretty dangerous. I hope that this is just not another bug in the truck. Almost reminds me of what the Prius people were talking about a few months ago.
  • winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
    The diesel engine is a model licensed from V.M. Motori, the same company that makes the engine for the Liberty CRD.
  • fordformefordforme Member Posts: 44
    You know, you should ask them for an extended warranty on the turbo. Lack of oil is critical for something that spins at such high rpm. Just a suggestion. Good luck. Glad the fix was simple.
  • winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
    I would have been more concerned if the oil feed line to the turbocharger had broken. As it is, I think they are correct in assuming that the turbo will be okay. This dealer is really good.
  • winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
    I purchased an extended warranty when I bought the Jeep so I am covered. I have never had a turbo fail. I take real good care of them.

    Thanks for the suggestion nonetheless.
  • fordformefordforme Member Posts: 44
    No problem! Good luck with the truck. I hope they open availability in the CARB states. My sister just had a newborn and she now needs a small SUV. She has that on her list of trucks to test drive. Can't go wrong with mid 20's overall MPG.
  • supertechsupertech Member Posts: 32
    This diagnosis sounds strange. The turbo oil feed is on top and the return line is on the bottom so it can use gravity to return the oil to the oil pan. This is the set up on all turbos I've seen. It sounds more like the boost hose was loose or leaking. I hope you get a speedy repair, let us all know how it turns out. LOL ;)
  • winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
    Sounds weird to me too. But somehow, I was under the impression that turbo bearings were always fed from the bottom to keep them immersed in oil and that the excess went out through the top. I might be wrong but that is what I was told. It seems to make more sense to bottom feed turbo bearings.
  • crddudecrddude Member Posts: 6
    I was wondering about the fuel heater on the CRD Liberty. When does it turn on? What temps? Etc.? Thanks.
  • lightnin3lightnin3 Member Posts: 153
    Well you 'll just have to take one out for a test drive.
    You won't really know until you drive it for a week.
    Speak Soon ...
    Lightnin3..
  • lightnin3lightnin3 Member Posts: 153
    Hi Winter !
    Burrrr... that sounds like a cold day in the Sault to me .
    I know your a seasoned vet when it comes to Diesels.
    I am curious too what the outcome would be.

    Really I wouldn't go that far as saying engine conponent failure right away.But I would like to know ??
    .
    I'll bet you 2 beers ...It's water in the fuel or waxing of fuel because of the cold weather.
    1/If it's just fuel freeze up, a good dose of diesel fuel additive will fix it,or try changing fuel filters.

    This happen to my friend once with a dodge Ram diesel.He had to change the filter and give her dose of the Lubricity aditive.And it worked...

    2/Check the air filter for iced up ,plugged air intake.

    3/Plug in the oil heater and keep her in a warm spot over night ,preferrably in a heated garage.
    Let me know how you make out...Ok?
    Speak Soon ..very concerned..
    Lightnin3...
  • lightnin3lightnin3 Member Posts: 153
    Wow sounds like you were lucky there.I would definitely get an oil change now while your at the dealer.I would want to baby that turbo.Oil is the only lubricant for her.

    I just came back from the North American Auto show.
    Got to see the engine first hand ,and I can see now the EGR and the cooling oil line for the turbo fits in now.I'll have pictures soon.

    I also told the powers that be that I was disappointed that the Caliber/Compass wasn't being sold here.
    That I would like to see more diesels , like the Liberty if possible.
    I hope others feel the same way.
    Speak Soon...
    Lightnin3
  • jkinzeljkinzel Member Posts: 735
    Quote lightning "I also told the powers that be that I was disappointed that the Caliber/Compass wasn't being sold here.
    That I would like to see more diesels , like the Liberty if possible.
    I hope others feel the same way."

    Thanks lighting for putting that bug in their ear. Guess it’s time to write Chrysler letter thanking them for getting the diesel ball rolling and to keep more products coming. I believe Chrysler could come out on top if Ford and GM don’t get off their fanny and introduce something.

    Again, thanks
    John
  • crddudecrddude Member Posts: 6
    Does anyone know at what Temperature the fuel heater works and etc.? Info would be appreciated.
  • siberiasiberia Member Posts: 520
    Your math seems to check, Caribou1. High marks for including turbo boost in you calculations. Isn't the issue the functional form and parameter(s) of the equation that utilizes these data?
  • caribou1caribou1 Member Posts: 1,354
    Off my nose I would think the amount of fuel (duration of injection pulse) is a factor of mass airflow * engine temperature correction * throttle potentiometer position. There can also be a comparator watching engine speed versus a mapped value to limitate the lower and higher rpms.
    This is what you have in a mechanical diesel pump using a governor mechanism excepting the control of air massflow.
    To make it simple, where there is no recognized fault there is a cheat! >> sensor logic or loose hose not letting the sensor snif what's going in :surprise:
  • drt1crddrt1crd Member Posts: 7
    Does this CRD engine normally produce more smoke than cummins diesels?

    My CRD seems to make alot more smoke than other diesels I have been observing. It is normally under accellaration in the 2200-2500 rpm range when the cloud of smoke appears.

    Is this due to the type of EGR? (Mine has been replaced once @ 6,500 miles now have 11,000.

    Thanks in advance.

    DT
  • winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
    Lightin,

    A broken oil line is what they found. Since the crankcase is a closed ventilation type of system, the break in the oil line caused a large vacuum leak. Took me a few minutes to figure that out.

    As to the other problems you mentioned, not likely. I have always been careful with the fuel I buy and add additives as needed to prevent gelling and gather any moisture that may come with the fuel. A gallon or two of 1-K water clear kerosene is my favorite pour point depressant.

    When the problem occurred, the temperature was in the 40's and it was dry.

    As for a fuel problem, I doubt it. The problem came on suddenly, not gradually.
  • caribou1caribou1 Member Posts: 1,354
    Someone has to follow you in normal traffic to identify the color of the smoke. White is steam, black is soot and greyish brown is good combustion. Usually you only get greyish brown when you clean it out under full acceleration. When people have EGR problems there is a constant and dense flow of black smoke from idling to higher revs. This is common with manual shifters because people load the engine before it reaches the max power band.
  • caribou1caribou1 Member Posts: 1,354
    Your large vacuum leak would be air coming via the crankcase into the engine without going through the air filter element. In this case the sensor would have given the same output as in normal operation. Don't you think so?
  • winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
    What you say sort of makes sense. But if the vacuum leak is large enough, then the mass air flow sensor might send a message to the OBD to say there is a problem. I have read that the system CPU is smart enough to compensate for some vacuum leakage. The thing I take exception with is that the leak occurred outside of the main air intake system and after the mass airflow sensor.

    I have a question for you. Does the turbo oil feed from the bottom and exit from the top or is it fed from the top and then drip back down to the oil pan?
  • caribou1caribou1 Member Posts: 1,354
    When you have such a leak, in fact you are in the same situation as when you open the oil filling plug on top of the engine. As long as your large hoses are well in place, the inlet side of the turbo and the sensor see all the air going in the engine and are not concerned with the crankcase being open to air. But when the crankcase is open then unfiltered air can sneek into the crankcase and be pumped by the turbo via the small oil fumes tube connected to the rockers cover. This tube is the one used for connecting the 'ProVent' oil separator.
    I intend to do an oil change this weekend and I will look into my turbo oil lines. In good engineering practice the return line sees practically nothing. When the turbo bearing(s) start to wear the oil goes into the combustion chamber instead of the crankcase :sick:
  • lightnin3lightnin3 Member Posts: 153
    My point was that they already have a 2.2L diesel in production in europe,and elsewhere like south America
    Why is North American Operations marketing only gassers when the diesel is 1 1/2 times more efficient,and with this new CVT Tranny I figure it should get around 35-40 mpg. A great commuting car I would say.

    I also had a beef that you don't see any advertising on the Liberty Diesel,and how efficient ,and practical a vehicle it is. I asked isn't DCX interested in keeping it's market share of the profitable SUV market??

    I am sure when the summer gas prices skyrocket again,people will again be looking for something more economical.
    But the Liberty still has more room than these commuter cars.Which is what I look for ...practicality.

    From What I understand is ...they are trying to get the new filter for emmissions standards approved for these vehicles.
    Speak Soon ...
    Lightnin3...
  • winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
    There is a problem here. It is the CVT transmission. They can handle only so much torque after which they self-destruct. Modern diesels just generate too much torque for CVT type gearboxes to handle. It is a maddening limitation.
  • lightnin3lightnin3 Member Posts: 153
    Hi DRT 1 CRD ,
    It sounds like you may need some regular maintenance..
    My suggestion would be to fill up with a premium diesel fuel Shell Ultra,or B.P. Premium diesel
    and add , powerservice fuel additive as well the tank.

    Go on a 1 hr trip somewhere.

    This will help clean things up.
    Hope this helps ...
    Lightnin3...
  • lightnin3lightnin3 Member Posts: 153
    Your probably right but I can't see these cars being used for towing or off road .
    Have you seen the new CVT's? they are more like a chain design,rather than a steel belt.
    I guess we'll have to see how reliable they are.

    I also have to say I wasn't impressed with the hybred designs.Alot can go wrong in a short while .Thats why I like deisel so much.
    Simpler ,efficient and reliable.
    Speak Soon...
    Lightnin3..
  • mdamickmdamick Member Posts: 277
    At 50 the OD kicks in on mine. You can feel it and watch the tach drop.
    I just lost something in the driveline, a loud bang and no movement. They may end up reprogramming it to the 55 OD. I will let you know.
  • faroutfarout Member Posts: 1,609
    winter2: I just called my dealer service tec. He states it feeds from top to bottom. Also I asked if the CRD had a fuel heater, and they don't.
    Also I got a response from Jeep about the Bio Fuel. "Jeep Liberty CRD has been designed to operate on biodiesel blends up to 5%." I think DC is saying this is their out if someone has a problem, and has used higher than 5% biodiesel, it may be tough luck. What happens if a state has only higher than 5%?
    Finally if you go to the Jeep web site, click on foreign countries, and go the New Zeland they have the VM.MOTORI 3.L V-6 diesel in the Grand C. and selling for about 2 years so far, perhaps longer.
    The auto manufactures are coming up with so much interesting ideas, I wish I could go to the Show up North!

    Farout
  • winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
    Part of the reason DC is allowing not more than a B5 blend is the lack of standardization of biodiesel. Some is better, some is not so good. Also, it maybe that some of the seals may deteriorate if you use more than B5. There are some people who have posted in this forum who use B20 on a regular basis and as far as I know have not had any issues. I have used blends from B5 to B20 from time to time and find that the engine is a little quieter and has a bit less vibration. I get the same effect with Amsoil cetane improver.
  • faroutfarout Member Posts: 1,609
    The Jeep Liberty CRD does not have a fuel heater. There is a electric engine block heater. Other than putting an anti-gell into the tank, that's the only heat there is for the fuel. I have yet to hear anyone say they have had a problem.

    Farout
  • junkyarddog2junkyarddog2 Member Posts: 1
    Finally got a chance to backroad test my '05 CRD and I felt like I was in a low slung sportscar, hitting lots of stuff in the middle of the trail that I didn't think I should be hitting. Put the CRD up on the rack and measured the ground clearance at the lowest point which was the skid plate at 6.25 inches. Specifications says 9.2 inches!
    Do I have a seriously defective Liberty CRD or was I just seriously lied to???
  • bhcs111bhcs111 Member Posts: 26
    The parts book says there is a fuel heater and I think my service manual talks about it. I would have to check for sure on that.
  • s4ris4s4ris4 Member Posts: 6
    I live in Greece and i ve been owning a Cherokee CRD 2.8 ('03) since 2004. Now i got 45000Km . Very very very satisfied, here in Greece we are like the US , diesels are not common and feel happy especially in the city, where the torque prevails :) I read some comments about poor fuel consumption etc...I am surprised, i usually achive 8.8lt/100 in the highway and my own personal record is 7.9lt/100(yes that's 29.5MPG). I suspect the better diesel here plays a role.I also use Mobil 1 0W-40 lubricant. When i changed to that i immediately got far better consumption , than the usual Mopar crap 15w or 5w. i now looking for a chip to make the 3.7 owners feel sorry :P
  • s4ris4s4ris4 Member Posts: 6
    A typical 2.8 CRD Limited here costs 50,000 Euros, which is too much, but if u think that the 3.7 costs 43,000 , with current diesel prices here (0.85Euros/Lt)i will get my money back after 150,000-180,000Km..Indeed it's not suitable for short trips or travels, but it's funnier to drive that a gasoline, u press the pedal at 1500rpm and u hear the monster waking up and pushing strongly forward...and in the highway when u overtake, u see people amazed, how did the diesels evolve like this :P Can't wait the years to pass and buy A JEEP again, this time the Grand Cherokee 3.0 CRD with 510Nm of torque and 10lt/100 consumption:D
  • caribou1caribou1 Member Posts: 1,354
    I confirm the return line is at the bottom. I can see it just by lifting the hood. There is an aluminium tube fixed to the bottom of the turbo that connects into a rubber hose with a helicoidal spring collar that cannot hold pressure. The rubber hose at the bottom is fixed onto the oil filter block with a screw type collar on mine. This is visible under the vertical thermal shield of the turbo, close to the coolant reservoir mounted on the passenger side. I still doubt this caused the initial problem encountered by winter2 :confuse:
  • caribou1caribou1 Member Posts: 1,354
    What type of mileage were you getting with the original engine oil? I never got better than 9.7lt/100KM at 90KM/H :cry:
    Since I put on BFG T/A 225*70*16 tyres I never got better than 10.5lt/100KM with the same driving habits.
    Now with cold weather I'm doing 11.5lt/100KM. Could this be due to winterized diesel and the different (smaller) tyres?
  • s4ris4s4ris4 Member Posts: 6
    i got something like you 9.7 - 9.8 something like that, but it's strange the more Km i do the more economical it becomes, after the first service i told the mechanic to put 0w-40 lubricant, i changed fuel filter and air filter, and i was amazed to find consumption dropping at 9.2 and less , i told u with 110km/h steady speed i even achieved 7.9! usual consumption is something like 8.8-9.5 at 105-110km/h
  • siberiasiberia Member Posts: 520
    Absolutely, "there is a cheat." LOL ;)
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