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Comments
I do appreciate you guys who share these other posts though - thanks!
Several responders to that link could not find a similar part on their gas pedal.
To shepali, I would think driving in high heels and pivoting on your heel between the brake and accelerator would be more of a problem than driving barefoot regardless of laws. I don't think it is against the law to drive barefoot in every state.
American States
Alabama:
Barefoot Driving: Operation of a motor vehicle by a driver with bare feet is permitted. Exception: motorcycle rider.
Ohio:
Barefoot Driving: Operation of a motor vehicle by a driver with bare feet is permitted but not recommended.
California:
Barefoot Driving: Operation of a motor vehicle by a driver with bare feet is not prohibited.
Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, Colorado, Connecticut, Delaware,Florida, Georgia, Hawaii, Idaho, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, North Carolina, North Dakota, Oklahoma, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Vermont, Virginia, Washington, West Virginia, Wisconsin, and Wyoming:
Barefoot Driving: Operation of a motor vehicle by a driver with bare feet is permitted.
District of Columbia
Barefoot Driving: Operation of a motor vehicle by a driver with bare feet is permitted.
American Territories
American Samoa, Peurto Rico, Virgin Islands: Barefoot Driving: Operation of a motor vehicle by a driver with bare feet is permitted.
Guam:
Driving Barefoot: No information.
Canadien Provinces & Territories
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alberta, British Columbia, Manitoba, New Brunswick, New Foundland, Northwest Territories, Nova Scotia, Ontario, Prince Edward Island, Quebec, Saskatchewan, Yukon Territory: Barefoot Driving: Operation of a motor vehicle by a driver with bare feet is permitted.
We've all seen that RLS, restless leg syndrum commercial, right?
Suppose, for instance, based on the "current" accelerator position, the transaxle has just begun a downshift into 4rd gear. Now, just as the transaxle begins the downshift procedure, a procedure that cannot be interrupted (must run to completion before a new shift command can comince), the driver nudges the accelerator pedal downward ever so slightly.
Oops, wrong gear, shift into third instead.
How could this problem be alleviated via software? think of using a dampening "shock" absorber to prevent dithering of the accelerator pedal. Within the firmware the programmer could easily implement such a feature.
And please keep in mind that these are effectively 7 or eight "speed" transaxles (torque converter lockup clutch usd in gear ratios other than O/D), so the accelerator pedal "notches" for upshifting or downshifting will be much narrower.
But in any case, with my foot up higher on the pedal, I had noticeable increased responsiveness of the car - and I was in a fair amount of stop and go traffic. As my leg got tired, or I unconsciously reverted back to my own habits, the car would noticeably exhibit the original symptoms. Then I started to experiment using my toe only, and noticed the delayed reaction of the gas pedal.
So - I really believe there may be some merit to this otherwise crazy sounding solution.
Having said that - I have also asked around to other people who say that they also drive with their foot pivoting off of their heal between the gas pedal and brake pedal, so that they don't have to completely lift their foot each time (both men and women, so not all wear high-heals - I hope!). So, I'm not sure how that impacts why I experience this phenomenon, and others do not - but it is definitely VERY interesting.
Also, seems like there could be a relatively easy fix for something like this - just by changing the way the pedal is connected, or something. So that too makes me wonder if there is more factors going on - maybe a combination of all the things we've discussed here....
As for driving barefoot, the research you posted here was very interesting - I really did think it was illegal in most states, and come to find out its expressly legal in most. I learn all kinds of things on this board
havalongavalon, "Toyota Avalon 2005+" #11794, 27 Mar 2006 9:41 pm
Although I do like it WAY better than my ES and the Suburban I've been driving for the past 3 months - I must say that I just don't think I was made for the Lexus driving style. My husband likes it a lot, so when he looses his company car he agreed he would drive the GX and I could get something different.
Anyway, I may check back on this board out of curiosity every now and then....but won't be monitoring it as closely has I have been over the last 6 months or so.
Good luck to others who are still in their ES and are having issues....
Thanks again to all of you who provided support and suggestions along the way!!!
Unfortunately he was unsuccessful in his arbitration case, but there are probably some things you can learn from it if you do a search for his posts in that discussion.
Shepali, who just posted here, was able to get a buyback from Lexus along with a deal on a new Lexus. I don't know if you are willing to get into another Lexus, but it couldn't hurt to talk to her. She says she will be watching this forum, so maybe she can give you advice.
Also search this forum. There was an earlier post by a Lexus owner who went through the Lemon Law buyback procedure.
Based on these other cases, I think it is important that you document your case -- You need to have given your dealer a number of opportunities to fix your car (or a number of opportunities to refuse to fix your car) and have this well documented. If I recall correctly, bkinblk lost his case because the Toyota rep said that the hesitation is a designed-in feature to protect the drive train and is present in all of their 5-speed drive by wire vehicles. I don't know how to argue against this unless you can prove that they all don't hesitate. There certainly have been a large number of posters claiming no hesitation at all.
I think it is a good idea also, if you can have the arbitrator actually drive or ride in your car to experience the problem. This can be difficult since there seems to be some inconsistency associated with the hesitation.
A question, have you read some of the recent posts dealing with foot position on the gas pedal? Why don't you see if this could be part of your problem and if you get relief from changing foot position? I think the problem is likely more complex than this, but it is worth a try since some have noticed improved driving after moving their foot up a bit on the gas pedal (this can be uncomfortable for many drivers and should not be a way for Toyota to get out of responsibility!).
Thats not true true Scoti. He lost the arbitration because he Refused to let the arbitrator actually ride in the car to verify that it indeed had unacceptable hesitation. Bkinblk instead chose to simply state that the car's performance was unacceptable.
Whatever characteristics are designed into the drivetrain are not even detectable to me, 3 people I know personally, and obviously the vast majority of the two million owners of Toyotas with that exact drivetrain. The hesitation that some people have described is not something I have ever experienced. Letting an arbitrator actually experience that hesitation would be crucial. They are not just going to just take your word for it.
#1802 of 2421 He who hesitates is lost by bkinblk Sep 14, 2005 (7:26 am)
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.........."The position of the Manufacturer is that the Customer is dissatisfied with a feature of the vehicle which is inherent in its design. There is a built in delay of up to one second in the electronic transmission control to protect the engine. This is not a defect in the material or workmanship of the vehicle. The Manufacturer believes that there is no current concern with the Customer's vehicle which impairs its use, value or safety.".............."The Customer's request that the vehicle be repurchased is hereby DENIED. I have reached this decision because the Customer is alleging a nonconformity, hesitation in transmission shifting, which I find to be a normal characterisitic of the vehicle in its design."
#1304 of 2421 Re: Am I at a right forum ? [scoti1] by bkinblk Jul 13, 2005 (1:19 pm)
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Replying to: scoti1 (Jul 13, 2005 9:57 am)
Just finished the arbitration and all went very well. A Toyota Customer Relations Field Rep was there as well as the arbitor. I presented my case and she hers(Toyota's). We then went on a long test drive where the car displayed some hesitation and sudden jumps in RPM. First I drove, then the Toyota rep drove while the arbitor rode in the back. When we got back, the Toyota rep said that she too noticed about a 1 second delay in acceleration and that was designed for the "safety of the transmission." My reply, of course was " I understand about the safety of the transmission, but what about my safety when I am driving defensively in L.A. traffic?" She further said that the new TSB would correct most if not all the other problems associated the the transmission, but it would not correct the hesitation issue which she said was "normal" for the car and for which they had no fix. I have so much more I could report, but I don't want to use up too much space. Regardless, I left the meeting with a very, very optomistic feeling and I think the arbitor noticed the Toyota rep making key mistakes in her (their) argument. I will know the results of the arbitration in about one week. Meanwhile, I feel so good, I may apply for the Bar Exam. Thank you all for your support these past couple of months.
The facts are simply:
1. Bkinblk had an arbitration where the arbitrator did drive the car and determined that the concerns were indeed valid, but that the manufacturer had not been given a chance to correct the problem.
2. bkinblk had the TSB applied.
3. He went for a second arbitration and REFUSED to allow the arbitrator to drive or ride in the car, insisting instead that the built-in hesitation was the problem. That would be the same built in hesitation that is on every one of the other two million other cars with that drivetrain, yet very very few report a problem. Mine drives flawlessly. I know of at least 3 others personally that do as well. Whatever hesitation may be built-in is inperceptable.
Without a doubt there are cars with an issue, but it is by no means anything that applies to all similar cars. Why you insist otherwise in spite of overwhelming evidence to the contrary is certainly very interesting.
IMO, you should refrain from discussion with some evidently here only to promote the hesitation issue.
First and foremost, comments about the issue by these folks are mostly slanted, misquoted, embellished, or what have you to support the promotional efforts.
Correcting the deliberate misquotes is a waste of time, and won't change anything. It certainly isn't going to stop.
Another consideration is the fact that it's really impossible to verify, one way or the other, anything said in these forums--for all intents and purposes all of it has to be considered in that context. This has to be remembered when reports about arbitration are logged in these discussions.
Also important is the fact that only a small number of actual reports have been logged in these forums; most discussion is by a few individuals going back and forth with endless discussions on the reports, theories, condemnations, etc.
Regarding the hesitation issue itself, it's a given that it's not a widespread issue, and to date (after two or three years of monotonous debate) there's no agreement on (a) whether or not it's a problem or a characteristic; (b) whether or not all DBW systems work that way; (c) whether or not there's any kind of design flaw at work; (d) that it's any kind of a safety issue; (e) that solutions such as TSBs, gas pedal mods, etc., are worthy of consideration.
IMO, what's being said about the issue is doing little harm, and it's not worth arguing about because the real proof is the marketplace in general, and everyone knows where that's going.
Let these folks do their thing--they tell us it's to "help" others, but it seems to me that the "help" being given is a thinly disguised form of brand bashing.
Folks who are here for that purpose aren't going to be dissuaded by rational debate.
I agree 100%. I believe that the posting of partial facts and deliberately distorted information is misleading and unfair to those sincerely looking for resolution to their particular problem. Anyone considering arbitration would be much better advised to have the arbitrator drive their cars to experience the hesitation first hand, rather than trying to make a case that all two million cars with identical drivetrains are flawed, which is simply not true and bound to fail.
check out these posts from texas83 and wilmil:
texas83, "Transmission problems with Lexus ES 300?" #77, 26 May 2003 5:14 pm
wilmill, "Transmission problems with Lexus ES 300?" #343, 10 Dec 2003 12:27 pm
Interesting on the "test drive issue"
hogan4, "Transmission problems with Lexus ES 300?" #655, 24 Nov 2004 10:44 am
We are not going to argue here about what went on in another discussion. As I mentioned anyone can go read it and find out.
We also aren't going to tell others what and what not to post.
And we're going to stop criticizing other members for holding different opinions or beliefs. If someone posts something with which you don't agree, certainly you may post a contrasting opinion. What needs to stop is the criticism of the person who made the post that you disagreed with.
If anyone has any questions or comments on anything I've said here, please address them to me in email and don't post them here.
Thank you.
On page 12 look at the "dithering" of the absolute throttle position signal as the pedal goes from idle, fully released, to WOT (or nearly).
It's very heard to imagine someone's foot doing this so there must be some sort of flaw in the engine/transaxle ECU's signal sampling algorithm.
This sort of on-and-off, on-and-off, and then on again would undoubtedly be quite confusing to the transaxle downshift control algorithm.
remember this is most probably throttle position, not accelerator position. big diff right?
now as the unit shifts up, we are probably seeing the coordinating throttle dither to lessen shift shock or something like that.
an accelerator position wouldn't revert to 10%/
Dang, that's a long time to wait.
Well, good luck to you and hope you have something else to drive until then.
Really tired of the ES transmission performance in "stop and go" traffic. Test drove the new IS and it behaves much differently - didn't have any issue with the "hesitation, harsh downshifting, clunkiness, gear-searching" behavior that has kept this thread going for 4 years now.
If I do this trade in, I know that I may be reinforcing Lexus' bad corporate behavior for not admitting the problem in the 5speed ES, but they seem to have corrected it at least in the new IS models.
I know that you have posted many notes on this website.
The facts about the new IS that you just mentioned are some of the reasons that I am considering that model. Since I live in the "snow belt" I've decided to try the AWD version. I've driven both the IS350 and IS250AWD. The 350 model is very fast and fun to drive but not very practical in MN winters; being RWD and equipped with low profile "summer" tires.
Interestingly, the new IS has been out for 8-9 months and I haven't seen anything on that website about transmission problems that have plagued the 5sp ES models. So, I assume that the control firmware is either different in the IS or it's mating to the new IS drivetrain results in a better performance.
It will be very interesting to see if the new ES350 (despite being front wheel drive, I believe it has the same 3.5L V6 and 6sp tranny as the IS350 ) will avoid the hesitation, gear-searching problems of the 3.3L / 5sp setup.
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#12217 of 12293 Re: Quality Article today [captain2] by joe369 May 01, 2006 (12:45 pm)
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Replying to: captain2 (May 01, 2006 12:26 pm)
Here is the article
LOS ANGELES -- Alan Seider has owned 11 Toyotas since 1982, but his 2006 Avalon likely will be his last.
He says quality glitches have bedeviled his Toyota sedan, which he has driven less than 6,000 miles since he bought it last July. His dealer could not solve the car's problems. Toyota headquarters stonewalled his appeals, he says.
"There have been significant throttle control and transmission hesitation issues," says Seider, 45, a computer consultant from Roswell, Ga. "I've isolated 15 different rattles in the body work."
Seider is far from alone. Internet chat rooms such as Edmunds.com Town Hall are littered with complaints from Toyota loyalists about the redesigned Avalon, which went on sale in February 2005.
The Avalon's launch problems point to a larger issue. To meet demand, Toyota has added factories in North America and thousands of new employees. Executives are worried that Toyota's rapid growth may dilute its quality standards.
Toyota and Lexus divisions still exceed industry averages in various studies that measure quality. Toyota predicts that the Avalon will score well in J.D. Power and Associates' Initial Quality Study, to be released in June.
But the quality gap is closing. And Toyota recalls have spiked in the last two years.
Every production line produces its share of lemons. But Toyota already has issued a string of technical service bulletins to dealers to fix Avalons on the road. Changes are being made on the assembly line. Toyota representatives acknowledge there are some teething problems, but decline to call the Avalon a problem car.
The Avalon is the Toyota brand's most-expensive car, starting at $27,355 including destination charges. The redesigned 2005 model was embraced by consumers; Toyota sold 95,318 Avalons last year in the United States, up from 36,460 in 2004. Avalon sales peaked in 2000 at 104,078 units. It is assembled at Toyota's Georgetown, Ky., plant, alongside the Camry and Camry Solara.
It's a car-buying axiom that one should never buy a car in its first year of production, before the bugs are worked out. But in recent years Toyota and Honda largely disproved that old saw, delivering nearly bulletproof vehicles from Job 1.
Now the Avalon redesign is showing that even mighty Toyota can slip up.
Kevin Clingenpeel, a 37-year-old insurance litigator from Fort Mill, S.C., loved his Avalon for the first 2,000 miles. Then the transmission shifts became erratic, especially in cold weather. The engine developed a persistent knock, which could not be cured by changing grades of gasoline or by using a fuel-injector cleaner.
"I pulled up next to a Ford F-350, and I could hear my valve train clicking louder than his diesel," said Clingenpeel, whose Avalon is his family's third Toyota.
Clingenpeel says his dealer gave the car "a wink and a nod" when he brought it in three times for repairs. Clingenpeel then appealed to Toyota headquarters to send out a district service manager. Toyota refused. Now Clingenpeel is looking to sell the car.
"It's sad because there's a nice car hiding behind all this," Clingenpeel said. "But this is not up to snuff from what I would consider from Toyota."
The Avalon's problems have drawn notice from Consumer Reports magazine, which has for years given the Avalon high marks.
While still giving the 2005 Avalon its highest scores in most categories, the magazine's overall quality rating for the car was average because the Avalon scored below the Buick LaCrosse, Kia Amanti, Ford Five Hundred and Mercury Montego.
Anita Lam, data program manager for Consumer Reports' auto test center, said problems with the Avalon cropped up in steering, suspension and body integrity.
"These are first-year teething problems. We anticipate the second model year will be much better," Lam said.
Toyota spokesman John Hanson called the Consumer Reports ratings "the sum of small irritations more than anything else."
But Hanson acknowledged that Toyota has been concerned with the initial wave of quality problems for the car. Toyota's priority has been to find and remedy problems, get the fixes to the production line, and issue technical service bulletins so dealers can fix the faults on vehicles already on the road.
"The Avalon is the most complex vehicle Toyota Division sells, so just by definition it's a problematic vehicle," Hanson said.
The Avalon's transmission lurch is especially noticeable in low-speed crawls during rush hour, Hanson said. Previous Avalons had problems shifting smoothly at high speed with high engine revs. Toyota fixed the high-speed lurch by changing software algorithms, but the adjustment caused a low-speed lurch.
The low-speed problem "is all software," Hanson says.
Some customers are voting with their feet. In Seider's case, he replaced his wife's Toyota Sienna minivan with a Honda Pilot. He doubts he will replace the Avalon with another Toyota.
Said Seider: "I am so disappointed in Toyota. I've had previous first-year vehicles, but nothing like this ever happened. Toyota's build quality has declined in recent years, and there seems to be nothing the dealer can do. Toyota has reached a size that they've lost sight of the individual customer."
I have had my GX470 for a month now, and it has no hesitation issues whatsoever, and I am very happy with the vehicle. My ONLY complaint is that it has a really hard time at highway speeds in cruise control - it consistently downshifts then upshifts when most cars don't do that. But, that is something that I can definitely live with.
Anyway, thought I'd give you all an update! And thanks again for all your support and input here!
On the other hand, it might be appropriate to create a different thread for all the detailed mechanical speculations on the way the transmission is designed and how it works. I suspect that most readers of this thread are not that savvy and don't understand such discussions.
I'd prefer that this thread be reserved for symptoms and Toyota's resolution to the problem.
Note that a couple of detailed discussions from a Toyota transmission designer would be very welcome.
Thanks.
That was tried and didn't work out. This board doesn't get a lot of activity anyway, so it is easy enough to skip over the posts that are too technical. That's what I do.
As far as your problem, my advice is be squeaky (i.e., the squeaky wheel gets the grease) and continue to voice your complaints to Lexus. You probably want to get to someone at the corporate level rather than the dealership. I am reading more of Lexus and Toyota taking care of people who have this problem (see Shepali's write ups here and alan_s in the Avalon forum).