Good, Bad or Ugly - Current and Future styling trends of BMW

bmwguru · May 2003

The difference between Nissan, Masda, VW and BMW is that BMW's sales volume has steadily increased every year since the mid 80's. BMW took a huge risk in possibly alienating customers who have been loyal over the years. BMW hasn't had to build or rebuild customer confidence in its' products because of bad designs or reliability issues. As far as BMW playing catch-up, radical designs rarely last. Look at what is happening to the sales of vehicles like the PT Cruiser and VW Beetle. When your product is perceived as garbage you have to take risks to attract customers.

riez · May 2003

The New Beetle and Thunderbird were pure retro. The PT Cruiser evokes retro. There isn't much you can change without changing the intent of the retroactivity. Will be interesting to see if all end up being deadends. T-bird demise nearing. Big reason VW and Chrysler waited to go turbo, convertible, etc.

BMW's competitors aren't sitting still. Audi making some big styling changes. MB has too, though not quite as much.

BMW wants to be a leader in design. They believe they have refined the older styles as much as they can and need some new blood to maintain leadership.

I remember the howling back in mid-80s when Taurus' jellybean styling, along with Audi, were heavily criticized. Think the revised big Dodge Ram pickup truck was criticized during its '90s intro. But they caught on.

Lots of people hated the Z4. My neighbor has one. She loves it. I do, too. Tons of armchair critics hate the new 745i. I did, too, until I drove one and got to appreciate it in the flesh. Sales of 745i have been good. Sales of current E39 5 Series falling fast. I think we'll all be pleasantly surprised at how well the new 5 looks on the road.

Don't get me wrong. Some moves appear bad. I didin't like the iDrive. Critics don't either. Nor could I figure it out intuitively in my test drive. Here is an important area BMW needs to fix. Audi's MMI much better!

toyo_z · May 2003

I too am concerned about where BMW is headed. The previous 7 was one of my favorite rides, but this new one just leaves me cold.

Anecdotally, i've noticed a lot of broken down new 7's by the side of the road (3 so far), which is odd for such a low-volume model, and even odder b/c i've never seen an older 7 just up and croak. Could these problems be iDrive related?

randomguy11111 · May 2003

Mercedes - moving a bit toward old BMW style (sorta one sausage, diff sizes) at same time BMW is adopting Mercedes idea of distinctiveness for each car. Has styling really well done, especially on S and E - these are conservative model ranges which are notoriously difficult to do.

BMW - searching for some sort of modernist style with individual model identity. Clearly able to build a common brand indetity with these individuality. But look of individual models is not so great. My problem with 7-series is that it simply looks inelegant. This works with caddilac DNA, but not with BMW. We will see how 5-series goes.

Part of problem is that BMW had styling nailed in 90s. Hard to improve on 99 3-series in styling. While all great driving cars I wonder what people thought of the styling of the 2002 from the 70s?

Jagaur - trapped in retro look that appeals to some buyers but limits growth potential. Need to find a third way. Was once cutting edge. These designs led and defined industry and now they are tied up by them. Interior in particular must better combine classicism with modernity. Obviously from driving perspective they have gone with elegance at the cost of sportiness and responsiveness. Need to get the sport back in the flacid ride quality.

Audi - really a design leader. Bauhaus style has done wonders and really united the entire lineup. Audi TT, A6 and new A8 really aesthetically perfect cars. Ditto for interiors, which are touch staid though.

Cadillac - antithesis of Jaguar, ultra modernist stealthlook. At first, being different for sake of being different. Also produced the monumentally scary Aztec. Styling really seems to be congealing well after all.

Was smart move. I really think Cadillac's values must be sleek, aggresive modernity with use of cutting edge technology. Key weakness remains interior styling and quality.

For those in NYC area, this is like Matisse-Picasso MOMA comparison. Jaguar is old impressionist works, Audi is the pleasing and comforting Matisse with rounded lines and great use of color variation, and Cadillac is the bold in your Picasso with disconcerting angles. Just pray there are no more Aztecs in pipeline.

If I wanted to be cruel drag out this art metaphor well past its usefulness, some bad American and Japanese styles are like those english portrait artists doing dull landscapes and people on horses. The Honda element is a Mondrian. I guess all that remains is waiting for the next truly scary model that is a Jackson Pollack.

Volvo - New look is growing on people, certainly accepted on street. Very clever way to move slowly away from Boxy look and combine sport with safety. Judge them by how far they have come and not necessarily where they are.

Also, they have a great interior aesthetic in their cars that is a great modern, clean look that is also welcoming and well done. Scandinavian modernity so to speak. Big challenge appears to be how sporty to make the driving experience.

Chrysler - see some interesting moves here. Must work on common brand styling cues besides dash and use of silver paint. Nice use of retro flourishes that don't get them trapped by them.

Saab - like the 9-5 and 9-3 styles. Look too similar however and trapped in a very small segment and quirky style that has become more mainstream and less interesting.

Unclear where they extend this. Interiors have to find a more modern interpretation of airplane cockpit that works better. Have you seen a 777-cockpit. Very hightech and looks like Acura or Lexus brightly lit instrumentals.

Lexus - In past, Mercedes me too styling without strong design belief or core values of any kind other than luxury. Liked GS, IS looked like 9-5 to me. SC430 was very nice and underrated.

Infiniti - Individually cool and daring models - J30, original Q, current G35, FX45 and even M45 all have great, neat, creative designs. Great job, if interior execution lets them down. Lack a coherent brand identity however and wonder what cues will eventually link all these cars together in the way European firms are so good at.

Acura - really not sure what they are doing with these cars. Clearly sport hatchback is where they really add something to the table, but such a small part of market. Really being dragged along by great execution of flawed designs and excellent value of vehicles

goose1207 · May 2003

The WSJ recently had an article about the upcoming 5-series.

* Title - BMW has a lot riding on its new 5 series
* Many folks are turning to MB E-series instead of E39 in Europe
* Bangle has been critized heavily for the new Z4 and 7 series
* iDrive drives people crazy - i stands for "infuriate"
* "E60 is the most aerodynamic car BMW has ever built"
* Bangle has a hate site by 17 year old Texan named Trey Thompson, RF'er?
* Bangle compares himself to Andy Warhol!

The '02s and some '03s have their share of problems. It is widely known that there are a significant number of electronic gremlins. BMWNA bought back many of the '02s in exchange for new '03s to keep customers happy. The sales data probably includes the resale of the buybacks by BMWFS to dealers. Also, the current E65 7 is available in markets such as China whereas the E38 7 never was.

randomguy11111 · May 2003

although sales of the 5 are off because it is such an old platform.

For example the RS6 and E55AMG beat the M5 in a recent review based on the fact that as good as an M5 is, it is an aging platform.

Even with this limitation, it is amazing how sales have just slowly slacked off. Normally, even for BMW sales would be off 20-25% in the last few years. This is only hitting it now, as the model is rather old and a replacement has been shown.

This is even more impressive given that the E is a great car. (I think the the E is so nice that I prefer the new E to both the S-class and BMW's 5-series.)

carguy58 · May 2003

First off lets startoff with Acura, their styling doesn't scream sporty but the designs have always aged beautifully.

Infinti-definately great designs but the M45 is not my cup of tea.

Volvo: Still too boxy. The C70 was their best styled model until they put it on the shelf.

Audi-definately the styling leader.

Chrysler-I wasn't too thrilled with the latest refreshening of the Sebring Coupe and Convertible. The Stratus Coupe looks exactly like the Sebring Coupe with the latest refreshening. Pacifica is a definite winner-nice elegant style to it with Audi like interior materials. Chrysler uses Audi like interior materials? yeah thats what I just said. Crossfire will create a buzz: I say Crosssfire to rip off a line in a car mag is AMC meets Mercedes CLK.

Lexus: The RX has always been beautiful. The IS 300 looks good but the interior is too cheap. Still getting younger buyers with the IS300 so kind of a morale victory for Lexus getting younger buyers but not selling enough IS 300's as they want to. The ES has seen better days in styling. 1997-1999 ES 300 styling was nailed perfectly.

Saab-The back of the 9-3 looks BMw-ish all of a sudden. Not a bad thing but you want to seperate yourself from the crowd a little bit. Saab is not my cup of tea but you either love or hate Saab styling.

Cadillac-Moving out of the old man stuff of the late 90's. The new convertible they will come out with will create a buzz. CTS has been a good seller and they are getting the younger buyers they want now. I can't believe Cadillac is making a comeback as it is. Who would have thought it? Interior sill too cheap in CTs though. Thats something Bob Lutz needs to work on ASAP.

merc1 · May 2003

Acura - Dull, but safe designs. Nothing ugly or wierd, just boring. Their CL coupe fell victim to this. Coupes are supposed to be stylish. The TL-S sedan looks better. Time and time again I've hoped for a good looking Acura, and have always been disappointed. The TSX looks ok I guess, but nothing to lust over. I hope yet again, the 2004 TL is coming.

BMW - Definitely going "down-hill". The 7-Series is ugly, the 5 is weird and the next 3 promises to be more of the same. Funny thing is, their new styling theme works on the Z4. It looks appropiately mean and stubby. Not sure about the 6-Series yet.

Audi - Not a ugly or bland car in the bunch. Definitely a style leader. The A6 is timeless, the A4 looks like it will eat the road with sport package wheels/tires. A style leader if not THE style leader. The A8, timeless. A4 Cabrio.....wow....now lets get a better engine underhood!!
Can't wait to see the A4 Coupe this fall.

Mercedes - The new CLK has been a rare styling misstep for Mercedes. The SL is a little overdone in some of it's details. That said, the CL is simply my favorite car of any type. Have you ever seen a large coupe with better proportions or a more seductive roofline? Absolutely the most gorgeous car of it's type on the road today. Nothing in the luxury class looks better, imo. The S, E and C (especially in new for 2003 "Sport" trim) are all lookers, with the S (Sport trim) being tops.

Lexus - Ranges from the dull to wierd if not ugly. I stil find the SC430 to be "interesting" however.

Volvo - Look ok, I guess. Still kinda on the conservative side. When Volvo realizes that luxury cars aren't supposed to be trimmed in black moldings they'll start to look better. I guess the S60 will get that correction later on in life as the S40 and S80 did. I agree with the above poster, the C70 was the best looking Volvo in the time I've been paying attention to cars.

Cadillac - Their new styling direction is a mixed bag. I thought the CTS was the ugliest thing on the road a while back, now I guess it's just "different". The XLR I'll have to see on the road as it didn't impress at the autoshow. The SRX is ugly.

Infiniti - They may be onto something. The FX45 looks like a car a gangster in a cartoon would drive, and it's unlike anything else on the road. I love it. The G35 Coupe let me down somewhat in that its wheelbase looks too long. Kinda like the old 300ZX 2+2 looked. It's still attractive though. The M45 and Q45 are pretty much lost causes, especially the M45.

Overall I look for the Japanese to get better at this styling thing. I look for BMW to get worse, Mercedes to continue with evolutionary styling, and Audi to pull a few stunners in the next couple of years.

M

mtbiker1 · May 2003

Ugly. If I win the lotto and decide I gotta have a BMW, it won't be one of the new crop. Ugh-Ell-Why!

randomguy11111 · May 2003

Here is a link to story on growing importance of interiors...

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2003-05-29-interiors_x.htm

What's in:

Office-style mesh seats without foam or coils.
Unusual cabin materials like Corian, bamboo, copper, ostrich leather-Lycra, tortoise shell.
Patterned carpets.
Two-tone cockpits.
Lots of color.
Electro-luminescent ceiling panels.
Ceiling rail systems with snap-on modules.
Fancy floor mats with logos and embroidery that double as "welcome mats."

What's out:

Overstuffed bucket seats.
Gray or beige cabins.
Grainy plastic, wood trim.
Solid-color carpeting.
Traditional sunroofs.
Small overhead bins.
Plain floor mats.

Scary fact:

An online poll of 3,000 suppliers and manufacturers recently picked the Cadillac CTS, with its high-tech look, edgy shapes and American-European styling, as the 2003 Car Interior of the Year, beating out competitors like the BMW Z4, Saab 9-3, Infiniti G35 coupe and Honda Accord.

broiler1 · June 2003

I was thinking of leasing a new 330ci in the near future but was somewhat concerned that the styling will be changed in the near future considering this current design has been around since 1999, of course notwithstanding the usual minor enhancements made on an annual basis.

Do any of you know when the new design is supposed to be released? If so, do you have a link to the photos of the new model?

Thanks

msgreen · June 2003

Several articles and press pieces are out now - including Edmunds - suggesting that BMW is going to give the 7 Series a significant face lift for next year which will aim to "improve" the styling of the highly controversial rear end. If BMW is alarmed enough to perform such a change only two years into the model run, and given the similarity of the new 5 series rear end to the 7, it would suggest that we might see some early changes in that car too? Anyone hearing this? I know that I have an E39 that I was considering trading on an E60; however, will definitely hold off further plans until I see one in person. Frankly, just from the pictures, if BMW changes the 7, I hope they do the 5 as well....

mjc440 · June 2003

The current issue of MotorTrend (the one with the new Caddy roadster on the cover) has a small picture of a slightly disguised new 3-Series. MT claims that the 3-Series redesign will be less radical than the 5's & 7's. From the little I can see from the picture, it doesn't look too bad. I hope they punch out a little more power from the 2.5L - 200HP would be nice.

goose1207 · June 2003

The 3 will be redesigned as an '05 model. Since you're interested in the coupe, that probably won't debut until '06 since BMW always introduces the sedans first.

I doubt that the new design of the 5 will be tweaked. According to BMW and the media, the E60s styling is already a toned down version of the E65 7.

rroyce10 · June 2003

...... Whether there is "implications" or not, the reality is .. the New "7" isn't selling and bunches of the ones that have sold, are being traded and their re-sale is in the dumpster and thats scary.

Lot's of dealers are screaming to BMW for a little help .. incentives, rebates, dealer cash, "whatever" it takes to move these Dead Dudes ... BMW is kinda going blind to this, too much ego and not enough "oop's" -- with the new "5" coming out, this might change their view from their "tall status" ~ to looking UP all over again and thats a shame ...

Terry.

indiana97 · June 2003

I have read that the new 3 series (sedan) will be out in 2005 but will be sold as a 2006. Given the 3 series cycle of 7 year redesign, this has been true back to the origional 320i series (sedan): 1978-1984, 1985-1991, 1992-1998, 1999-2005, 2006---. I would think the 2 door would be out as a 2007.

riez · June 2003

indiana97... If you like introduction and production data, check out Jeremy Walton's book, BMW 3 Series Enthusiast's Companion (Bentley Publishers, 2001). Per it, the first 3 Series (E21) was "announced in the first week of July 1975 to the German press and European LHD markets, the 3 Series was also sold in RHD...in Britain in Autumn, 1975.... On sale in US starting November 1976 [320i MY 1977]." The E30 3 Series "debut of the 318i in the US in 1983". "In the USA, the E36 generation premiered in four-door 325i format for model year 1992." "It was July of 1998 before the latest 323i and 328i arrived in America."

In all forms worldwide:

-E21 in production from June 1975-Sept 1983.
Initially sold in Europe as 316, 318, & 320i 4 cyls.
-E30 in production from 1982-Jan 1994.
Sedan majority 1982-1990.
-E36 in production from 1990-2000.
Sedans in production until 1998. Some built at Spartansburg SC plant.
-E46 in production since 1998.

bigbri2 · June 2003

I owned a 2002 745i that was re purchased by bmw na. I m considering getting a new 2003 745li. I keep reading about the body style being tweaked but have never herd if that is officially gonna happen or just a rumor. The only thing I have herd that is going to be different on the 04s is the bluetooth technology. Anyone know 4 sure when the body will b changed on the 745?

rroyce10 · June 2003

..... I don't "think" that even BMW has really started that bold move .. lot's of false pride going on there.

Personally if I were you, I would be lookin' at a pre-owned 745Li with 4/6/8k and saving $20 grand, their re-sale is Not good.

Terry.

goose1207 · June 2003

The cosmetic changes will be introduced with the '04MY this fall. I've heard that the dlrs preview is next month. I would not buy a pre-owned '02 or '03 because of all the buybacks. Plus, the value of the '02/'03s will fall even further when the restyle comes out. The dlrs are giving these cars away with their below market lease rates and lofty residuals.

ksoman · June 2003

I am starting to wonder about how much car prices really drop with redesigns... because if you plot the average price graph year on year, most curves look the same.

I also wonder for another reason, that being, with new computer aided designing and more modern flexible platforms and such things, more and more makers keep improvising their car's body shell (some might call tweaking) through the standard 4-7 year life cycle of the car anyway... just about everybody seems to be doing the refresh after 2 years game lately... does that even matter anymore?

ksso

riez · June 2003

ksoman... You have to adjust for (1) inflation, (2) the extent of the redesign (e.g., did it include new engines, transmission, etc. which can be expensive to develop), (3) changes in standard equipment, and (4) relative currency changes (say between euro and dollar--so that something might rise in price dollar-wise but not euro-wise and vice versa).

Believe the data shows that in most cases a car is less expensive over time. Most expensive when first produced (i.e., in the early model years). The nominal price may actually rise, but that can be due to (and less than) general inflationary pressures and often once optional equipment is made standard. For example, didn't the MY2003 5 Series get standard sunroof and rear head protection? And all MY2003s added another year of "free" maintenance (so it is now 4/50 rather than 3/36). And keep in mind that in less than a few years the euro went from about $1.17 to $0.84 and back to around $1.17.

From a cost accounting standpoint, the unit cost of production will decline as plant & equipment costs associated with the new vehicle are amortized over time. There are also a lot of intial start-up costs to creating a new design. And there is a production learning curve. Should take fewer hours and fewer inputs to build over time as they get used to the new design, plant & equipment. So, unit cost of production should decline over time.

karmikan · June 2003

A pretty effective way of tracking the "real" cost of a product over time is to graph the average annual salary against the price of the item. This automatically compensates for variables such as inflation, increased productivity etc.

I've seen this calculation done for cars and the price (the number of months the average person has to work to buy a specific car) has steadily declined over the past several decades. Factor in the increased standard content level such as airbags, CD players etc and the decline is even more pronounced.

merc1 · June 2003

Well there is another new BMW to examine for this topic, the X3:

http://www.germancarfans.com/photos.cfm?PhotoID=3030617.001

http://www.germancarfans.com/News.cfm?NewsID=2030617.001

M

ksoman · June 2003

I agree with you, however my point is, the "relativity" or in my world, "rate of change delta" are kinda similar, not looking at pure $s (no adjustments for inflations etc..) and as murphy would slap me and say, no rule fits everything, there are always those exceptions called collector cars...

ksso

ksoman · June 2003

Looks like the death valley in the background.

I have actually seen some X3s with light camouflages while i was driving around the German countryside in January and then again in March.

The more SUV's i see on the road (and despite I adding to the national statistics of overweight people), I'm more and more and more convinced I'm headed into the non-SUV direction as I gather materials and babies... if I need space, i'll probably go with a a6 avant or a 5 series wagon.

ksso

ksoman · June 2003

This 1 year long term report from Edmunds is interesting.

http://edmunds.com/used/2002/bmw/7series/100070588/roadtestarticl- e.html?articleId=62788&editorialpage=page012&tid=edmunds.- e.roadtests.longterm..3.BMW*

Personally I think iDrive is a blink of an eye learning curve.. but then I'm a hard core geek.

ksso

paper_tiger · July 2003

I plan to purchase a 3-Series in the near future, but my main concern is this picture.

Can this website be trusted?
As much as I'd love submit to my erges and run out of my home and purchase a new 3-Series right this minute, I'd hate to buy one if they'll change their model the following year.

Please help me BMW experts!

ksoman · July 2003

unlike a lot of masked pictures and software edits, this looks like a real picture...

i'll surely not buy that.... but my next car is likely to be a a6 avant when i replace the s-type... so well anyways

ksso

donmbmw · July 2003

I too was concerned about getting a car that would be "out of style" in a year, but some things occurred to me.
1. The 3 series is a classic beauty that will always be appreciated.
2. The sneak photos I have seen don't look to be much of a radical departure as say the 7 series was, so I don't think it will be such a big dea.
3. I'm able to buy a brand new 330i right now. i teseted the infiniti and it cant compare very nervous chasis not nearly the bmw refinement.
I'm just waiting for the allotment of 04's to come into my dealership

randomguy11111 · July 2003

you have a red metallic car and a silver metallic car both claiming to be 2005 3-series that are completly different. Look at the lower bumpers, the actual bulbs in the headlights...

What is this?

P.S. The silver looks like a BMW interpretation of a PT-Cruiser.

karmikan · July 2003

The text says that the red car is the new 3 series and the silver car is the X3 (Xactivity mini sport ute). That would account for the difference.

kuseler · July 2003

Looks like BMW is listening, take a look at:

www.auto.t-online.de

Good looking car, much less radical than the current 7 and new 5 disasters.

Also, there is the new 7 face lift, very nice.

BMW, thanks.

coo1 · August 2003

I just bought a 2002 745i demo with 4000 miles for $55425. My question is 1) Is this a good deal based on your recent sales? 2) How is this vehicle? iDrive? Snow handling etc? Any comments/suggestions will be welcome as this is my first BMW. Thanks

cheezhed · August 2003

I personally would have paid that for a 2003 but it sounds like you got a nice low mileage car. Despite the criticisms I think the "7" is classy; the look will continue to grow on us. How do you find the idrive? Apparently once you master it, it's phenomenal. The graphics sure look great. What's the color?

Anyway, once I buy a car I don't cry over spilled milk. Enjoy it.

indiana97 · August 2003

I see posts re: redesigned 3 series. I would think that the redesign will come out Fall,2005 as a 2006 model for the sedan then the following model year for the coupe and M3. In keeping with a 7 year redesign of the 3 series this would make sense. Just like the redesigned 2004 5 series will be out this fall (2003) as a 2004. Also, I have seen magazines that refer to the redesign as the 2006.

designman · October 2003

dan_m_power, good post (in the 5-series forum) with regard to the Z18 prototype. I can see todays youth calling it awesome. My generation would call it funky. What I like is that its sort of a historical blend of BMWs... definitely has more styling talent than any current bimmer. This probably means it will never make it to production. BTW, thanks for pointing out that site... bmwinfo.com

Hey guys, this forum has a good topic but its languishing... lets stoke it up!

lemko · October 2003

...the commercials showing the new BMW Grand AM... er...5 Series?

designman · October 2003

Haven't seen the commercials yet but have seen billboards.... serious effort with lighting/image-editing to make the side contours less stark and mollify the effect of the eyeliner. Also, shooting it from below ground level foreshortens the dorky height... similar to the flash sequence on their homepage. Finally, the motion blur of the wheels eliminates their ugliness. Whoever was the art director did a great job. Too bad... eventually you have to see it au naturale.

bmwseller · October 2003

The cars tall stance and angled surfaces give it a much more aggressive, forceful, strong presence. It's tougher looking, faster, sweeping. The headlights blend with the lines. They are smart and mean. The slope in the front gives the higher body the sense of moving forward, in a hurry. You do like it, don't you?

msgreen · October 2003

No, I don't like the style (unfortunately). As a current E39 owner, I was all set to trade for a new E60, but didn't like the early photos. Now that I have seen it, driven it and had a chance to look "up close", I am more convinced that I don't want it. Yep, drives great - almost any Bimmer owns the competition - but this is a car of far too many contradictions and compromises, from interior design/quality, to awkward lines/flow on the outside. I'm a BMW fan and for the sake of the company, hope the E60 sells, but I won't be one of the buyers, and from the sound of things, I think I will have alot of company.

designman · October 2003

Youve made reference on many occassions to the tallness of the new 5 as if it is some sort of redeeming quality. Height, and the appearance of height in any car, particularly a sports car and sport sedan is a negative. BMW concurs by way of their advertising. This is why they photograph the vehicle from such a low view point... makes it look lower, hence sleeker.

Also, have you ever noticed that you will never see the ugly part of a car in an ad? Case in point... rear end of the Z4. Beauty shots of the 5s butt will be nonexistent also.

They did the best that they possibly could with the photos, that is, they distorted its proportions and covered it over using rarely seen lighting and the magic app, Photoshop. To me its clearly an admission on BMWs part that the car needs serious help. They should try giving it to Regis and Kelly when they have those makeover sessions.

bmwseller · October 2003

I'm delivering these new 5's now and I can tell you that the people who are buying them are even more passionate about how much they "love" the car than the people who are expressing their dislike for the car.

Tall is masculine, strong, athletic, forceful. Hence, there is the "short man syndrome". Is tallness a negative on a sport sedan always? Do you set the attractive standards, FABIO, or is there a definitive guide? You should love the Z4 then. It's very short/low appearing.

bentleyfam25 · October 2003

Interesting article today in the Wall Street Journal on BMW accelerating its "scheduled" redesign of the 7 series. Removes the bustle and cleans up the headlight lines. Also some discussion of reworking the I-Drive. Reason is that 7-series sales are significantly down (23% year over year in September) overall, but particularly in Europe since a lot of buyers don't like the Bangle-ized version. Also that 7's are being discounted (!) in order to sell them.

Hmmm...does this mean that it makes sense to switch out of BMW for a couple of years on the 5-series, until they revisit their design? I suppose only market acceptance will tell.

So a question for BMW seller, since you seem to be on the front lines on this. With all sincere respect to your excellent company and your job, I've noticed that the number of your posts are increasing in defense of the design changes. Is this an indication of concern at BMW? I'm assuming you are a retail salesrep. So, how many E60 5 series has your region sold and ordered since Sept 1 (for instance) compared to E39 5-series sold and ordered over the same period last year? Whatever the merits of Bangle's redesign, the proof will be in the actual sales. Don't take this as some kind of flame or agressive challenge -- I'm sincerely curious -- but what are the actual sales numbers?

Thanks--

bmwseller · October 2003

The sales figures for October will not be very telling because there is still not a good availability of the e60's. We have the two demos still here but we've sold all the others that we've gotten and many (maybe half)of the incoming orders are sold. But, it's brand new and we'll probably have a real grasp on how well the car sells in the spring. I'm doing REAL well with the new and I did REAL well with the previous 5.

I look forward to seeing the #'s myself but to me everything is local. Ultimately, I could sort of care less about nationwide sales compared to how many I sell. Don't get me wrong I have the utmost confidence in the product and company and I wouldn't go work for mitsubishi or ford but this isn't a hobby for me. It is the means by which I raise a family and build a career.

Within the next couple of weeks we should begin to accumulate somewhat of an inventory and I'll sell the cars. My clients are basically shopping me against MB and Lexus and I'll get most of those deals.

riez · October 2003

Easy to see why BMW is having to discount and redesign the new 7 Series. It just isn't selling well. MB cleaning up. Even Audi doing well.

Units Sold in USA
Make Model September 2003 August 2003 YTD 2003 YTD 2002

Mercedes-Benz S-Class 2,025 1,622 15,981 14,534
BMW 7 Series 1,457 1,817 14,410 16,296
Lexus LS 430 1,739 2,168 15,583 19,909
Aura 3.5 RL 590 769 5,457 7,557
Audi A8 520 93 2,311 831

BMW 5 Series 2,911 2,061 33,129 28,932
BMW M5 64 28 1,356 1,248

kejaco · October 2003

I've enjoyed reading all the discussions on the new styling trends at BMW. It's clear that most BMW purists don't care for the new styling, but the general public might. My decision to purchase an '03 530i (manual trans, sport/premium pkg) after seeing photos of the '04 530i does not influence my opinion that the '04 is not an improved design. If I truly liked the '04 better, I would buy it, but I don't and won't. The E60's interior is downright ugly; there's no "flow" to it all. The entire car looks as if 10 different committees designed it without talking to each other. When the local BMW salesman told me that the new style should attract more women buyers, it finally hit me how to best describe the styling: It looks FEMININE. Its nose does make a great looking Pontiac though. On a positive note, the E60 with sport pkg/active steering is quite impressive. Like I said recently in Roundel magazine, perhaps I'll eventually warm to BMW's new styles, but I shouldn't have to.

designman · October 2003

When people resisted the ingress of the computer into the mainstream in the 80s... THAT was resistance to change. They paid the price of having their careers turned upside down. The issue of criticizing the new 5 is nothing like that, especially since most of us were looking forward to the new style to begin with. This is a matter of aesthetics, pretty vs ugly. Its that simple.

Ill tell you another thing thats simple as far as Im concerned. This new 5 is the ugliest bimmer of all time, although this dubious distinction will be short-lived with the arrival of the new 3 and 1. And if you really want to see the fine mess that BMW is getting itself into go browse the concept cars. It just gets worse and worse.

BTW this is all the fault of the Quandts for hiring Bangle and probably not evaluating him properly. As a fellow designer/director Im actually starting to feel sorry for him because this junk doesnt come directly from his hand. Furthermore, Id bet he has little to do with final selection... rather, pedantic committees doing what they do best, throwing wrenches into the wheels. He should get back to the drawing board and let someone else pick up the baton. Creating is one thing... inspiring staff and playing diplomat to the empty suits is another. I really hate seeing people get fired and being the scapegoat for the shortcoming of others. Sad to say though, its likely to happen. And yes indeed, its in the numbers.

BMW engineering, hang in there. It must be torture for you guys.

bmwseller · October 2003

BMW is nearly just a memory now .....

Too bad they didn't just keep making the car look like it did in the good old days.

bentleyfam25 · November 2003

bmwseller, I sympathize with your frustration with the comments on this board and respect that you make your living selling the car. A couple of comments on the interest in sales numbers:

--If 5 sales are picking up, and a new market has been found by bmw...that's great and they're right. New generation, different audience etc. As important, you have a good living to make on selling it to a new market and that's fine too. So, the complainers realize that the design won't change and decide to stay or go to a competitor, but BMW has made the right decision.

--If there's a quick burst of early adopters and the bulk of the bmw target market holds off, then the car (and the company and sales employees) will suffer. That's too bad. Note that there's a lot of nearly-BMW alternatives out there now, more so than when the E39 came out. As a BMW fan, I'd say that none of the Infintis, Lexuses, Audis, Jaguars etc quite come up to BMW, but they're close -- and if the E60 styling is offputting enough to drive a fan to a close alternative, they won't come back for at least 3 years. That's bad for bmw (or maybe it teaches them a few things and good in the long term). It's certainly bad for the retail sales space.

--Hence the question about sales. If E60 sales begin to roll off quickly, I would personally wait out this sales year in the hope that some relatively painless interior redesigns would improve the current look, and some sheetmetal changes in the exterior could evolve the look pretty quickly. If sales remain strong, then I'll either learn to like it or go to a competitor. They'll be right, and all the complainers (including me) will be wrong.

--I think the bottom line about the Bangleization of the 5 is that it is a unnecessary gamble on BMW's part. A two year design evolution would have tested a core market. After the market reaction to the 7, I'm surprised they took such a risk. Too early to tell whether it really succeeds.

Anyway, my 2 cents. For your sake, I hope it's a great sales year, but speaking as a "market of one", I'm delaying considering a purchase until next summer so (a) electronic I-drive teething problems work out (b) I'm past any early adopter burst of sales, and most importantly (c) I can see if the '05 has some meaningful changes in design. Maybe BMW'll lose me, maybe not; but if the currrent design remains the same, the chances are high that I'm gone. Again, a market of one -- but there's others who feel the same way. Hope there's not too many, for your sake.

Good luck, and stay on. Your comments and enthusiasm are welcome.

Good, Bad or Ugly - Current and Future styling trends of BMW

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