Good, Bad or Ugly - Current and Future styling trends of BMW

randomguy11111 · April 2003

1. You guys have some amazing metaphors...Buck Rodgers steeling wheel..

2. Perhaps it will grow on you. Did the Z4 grow on you at all?

merc1 · April 2003

Someone touched on this before and I agree, BMW's new styling direction works for the Z4 (i.e. sporty or sports cars) but not on sedans. However, the new 6-Series promises to be ugly too.

M

argent · April 2003

I already sounded off on the Z4 (less controversial in the metal than on paper, but not appealing either) and the 7-series. The 7 was ugly then, is still ugly now, and will be ugly until it's restyled. Since the 5-series looks a lot like it, I highly doubt it'll "grow on me." It's not challenging, it's just awkward and ill-conceived.

I liked the looks of the old 5-series -- and the one before it. I wouldn't even be willing to test drive the new one. I would consider some peculiar-looking cars in other segments. For example, I'd consider a Subaru WRX wagon, certainly an odd duck, but that's a $24K turbo car with a hooligan streak, not a $45K premium sedan.

randomguy11111 · April 2003

had styling of previous XJ-8. It is almost impossible to tell the two apart from each other....

carguy58 · April 2003

The front end is way too overstyled in my opinion. Then again I don't like the looks of the 7 Series but 7 Series sales are up so what do I know? I think Bangle is really going overboard with the styling. I mean like somebody said before the 7 Series looks like the Chrysler New Yorker of the mid 80's. I also think the back end kind of mirrors a 01+ Sebring. Basically what you get with the new 7 Series is a little old school and New School Chrysler styling with the 7 Series styling. The Z4 has the Pontiac Grille with the back end kind of looking like a Acura RSx. The 5 Series looks the current Pontiac Grand Prix up front. BMW is getting like Honda and Toyota: making the cars too American Looking. I don't why Japanese and German Manufacturers are trying to get the cars so American looking.

randomguy11111 · April 2003

The new E (my personal fav), look for used 5 series or go with something like the GS300....

mariner7 · April 2003

carguy

It's called globalization. When the head of BMW design is American, the head of GM design is French (I think), every company has a design office in California or London. There won't be a national design style anymore, just like other auto technologies like ABS have no national boundaries.

I wouldn't call the new look American, until I see them looking more like CTS and Lincoln! Then they all need help...

I admit the new 5 front end looks contrived, but still think it's the best looking 5 in many generations. In the past, was there ever a 5 that was a visual stunner? This one comes closest, I think!

logic1 · April 2003

The new GM chief interior designer is a French woman from Renault, I believe.

Cherry is still the head of design. He will retire and be succeeded by one of the Daimler/Chrysler merger cast-offs. Certainly a lot of international intrigue going on.

And look at the Japanese as well. Many of their more famous designs actually hail from their facilities in Southern California in conjnction with some of the famous private groups out there.

mg330ci · April 2003

Those recent ads photographing the car from below do work......as long as you don't see its front face, it is ok.

argent · April 2003

With the demise of the current BMW 5-series, I just probably wouldn't shop in that category. I don't personally need the space or size of a car in that class, and at this point none of the offerings are appealing in terms of styling, performance, or value. The Infiniti M45, Lexus GS430, and doubtless the new 5-series perform well, but they're very ugly. The Audi A6 is aging, and too blobbish for my tastes. The Mercedes E-class is nicely styled, but I don't like the heavy-handed electronics and artificial control feel at all. The Volvo S80, Lincoln LS, Cadillac Seville, and Acura RL barely register on the radar in any way.

If I needed space and luxury, a V-6 Passat seems like a much better value. If I wanted sportiness, a 3-series BMW is more appealing. If I wanted security and badge snobbery, I'd rather have a Benz C320. And if I wanted dependability, space, and value for the money (at the cost of some blandness), an Acura TL Type-S is the best deal.

Previously, the only one of the mid-level luxury cars that made any sense to me was the BMW 530i. Now none of them do.

randomguy11111 · April 2003

How depressing...

1. I'd say give the new E a chance or perhaps a CLK (can you go coupe?). Both are beautifully styled

2. You could be the proud owner of a Passat W8.

3. Am skeptical you'd be happy with M45 or GS430.

4. As a single, non-tall guy, I could never see the purpose for the 5-series in as much as it seemed identical to the 3, but longer, so I am sympathetic.

5. Buy a used M5. You get the old styling and a fast car at a lower price.

r178 · April 2003

Just trying to past this along. Enjoyhttp://www.bmw545.com/

argent · April 2003

I have no problem with the _styling_ of the Mercedes E-class or the CLK. I don't like the way the E-class drives. The control feel is too artificial, and the electronics are heavy-handed.

I think the Lexus GS is vulgar. It's classic noveau riche -- it has an abundance of everything except taste, and the toothy 'dollar grin' grille is more Buick than Buick.

I liked the 5-series BMW because it wasn't too far removed from the 3-series in character and feel, but had more room for those who need a back seat and a bit more trunk room. But the new one is so hideous that it makes me recoil. (I'd be VERY, VERY hesitant to buy a used M5, or M3, because of the possibility that the previous owner may have abused it or not maintained it properly, unfortunately.)

I hate the Passat W8. It's a poor value -- a massive amount of extra money over the V6 that is not compensated by performance or luxury. The W8 engine is one of those engineering feats that's clever rather smart; in that, it reminds me of some of GM's early-60s efforts (e.g., rope-drive Pontiac Tempest or Oldsmobile Jetfire turbo). Its sole virtue is compact size. It's heavier, less powerful, and not as smooth as the BMW or Benz V-8s in that size range. It worsens the weight distribution of the already nose-heavy Passat . It's also frighteningly complex, and can't possibly be cheap to produce -- probably a big part of the reason the W8 Passat costs so much more than the V-6.

merc1 · April 2003

Whats even more interesting about the Passat W8 is that it sells better here than in Germany or the rest of Europe. It's being dropped though, the W8 while a very good engineering concept just didn't liven the car enough. A different interior would have helped too. I know the W8 was history when VW announced that the Phaeton and Toureg would be using Audi's 4.2L V8 instead.

M

idletask · April 2003

At my dealership yesterday. I was there to test drive the 330 Cd so I didn't drive it

The car was black. Moreover the sun was low in the sky. Well, wow, now *that* was a looker. I just love it. It looks wayyy better in person than on photos. Now I tell you all, just wait till you SEE the 5, I think you'll be in for a similar surprise!

logic1 · April 2003

Glad you are on board with the Z4. I really like the look of that car.

I am looking to seeing the new 5 and the 6 Series as well.

goose1207 · April 2003

7-series sales are up because the car is available in countries like China, to name just one whereas the previous design (E38) wasn't. Also, I believe that BMW is counting "sales" garnered from all the '02 buybacks that they have done; double counting.

I read an article in Auto. News that said, "If the new GTO is a hit, Wangers says, it could help Pontiac morph into a true U.S. competitor to BMW and other brands of high-performance cars." Wangers is the mktg exec of the original GTO. The GTO doesn't need to be a hit to morph into a BMW competitor, Bungle is already doing a great job at that.

idletask · April 2003

People continue to judge without seeing.

randomguy11111 · April 2003

I think it is nice that they have some differences. Prior to that, I could see no logical reason other than kids or height to go for the 5 series (whereas the E-class is very distinctive)

More generally, I thought the BMW look worked best on 3 and got a bit weaker as the car grew longer. The old 7 was still a bit too bland for the luxery driver's market. I still wish the trunk could be avoided.

I would also like to go on the record as saying that the Z4 is an improvement in every possible way over the Z3. Not only is it bigger, nicer and should have much nicer handling, but the Z3 was a giant phallic monstrosity.

bgt1 · April 2003

Couple thoughts:

I see now the "changes" Bangle is moving the new lines to and thought it was just isolated in the z4. The "retro" interior look is great inside the z4 but for a 5 series sedan, it doesnt look as well.

Why is the new front end not including the grill as part of the hoood? I noticed this on the z4 but did not think it would carry over to the 5 series. Ive always loved opening the hood and having the entire front end with grill come up too to get a better view under the hood.

I agree with everyone else on here that the front end is looking a lot like a grand am and the back end kinda like a Accord. ughh to both.

Im sure it will grow on my like the z4 did but it sure is.... "different".

randomguy11111 · April 2003

unfortunately, it does appear that the hood raises just above the grill. That definitely does not look as ease.

I suspect they would have tried the styling both ways and so there must be some reason not to freeze the grill - perhaps to keep the lines on either side that run the length of the hood nice and clean. But personally, I agree that keeping the hood as a nice clean flowing piece of aluminum or whatnot right into the grill is nicer....

goose1207 · April 2003

Bungle is doing away with the kidney grilles being part of the hood. Alot of folks are worried about what he will do to the '05 redesign of the 3-series.

idletask · April 2003

I mean, the only thing you won't have access to anymore is the motor fan. In both cases anyway you'd have to unscrew it to get it off. So...?

BTW I borrowed a 330 Cd for this weekend. The styling is absolutely great. I prefer it over the "old" design, by and large. In particular the headlight redesign is spot on. And oh man, what an engine! Now I just wish it were easier to grab the front seatbelts!

xmf314 · April 2003

To me the new 5 series looks like another Bangle bungle. Since a blindfold and last cigarette might be too drastic a punishment for Bangle, I suggest BMW should just give him the boot.

idletask · April 2003

And have you seen the car in person at least?

Oh wait, I know the answer already...

xmf314 · April 2003

I have seen some very detailed pictures of the new 5 series in the British auto magazine Car. I sure do not find it attractive from any angle.

bgt1 · May 2003

Ok, so maybe from a mechanic perspective its not a big deal that the grill is not part of the hood....BUT, ive always associated a bmw's grill as part of the hood. Its like a Corvette that its hood opens backwards or a Ferrari with the doors that swing up. Its all part of the style of the car. And I didnt think it should have been taken "away".

Heck, next thing you know, they will be getting rid of the kidney grill altogether!

goose1207 · May 2003

They are getting rid of the kidney grilles on all the new designs...they've been replaced with Pontiac grilles.

chile96 · May 2003

If I recall correctly, most Ferrari's doors open as a regular car w/ rare exceptions. You are thinking of the lamborghini or defunct deloryian(sp?) - 2 different "swinging up" methods.
Anyway, I was recently at a Pontiac/GMC dealership sizing up the new Grand Prix's and the sales rep made the comment that Pontiac's styling is so aggressive and sought after that even German cars, i.e. BMW's, are beginning to follow their leads!!!!!

No, I'm really kidding but I'm sure that will happen somewhere to some unsuspecting customer in the future. It is a real travesty about removing the grill from the hood - guess just a change of the times. I remember when the Bimmers had their hoods open backwards and was disappointed when they made that change. What's next, removing the sky & propeller emblem in exchange for a knockoff Pontiac sign...lol.

Take care
fo

lemko · May 2003

...copying Pontiac. Take a look at some of Mitsubishi's latest offerings.

bgt1 · May 2003

my bad, Lamborghini, not Ferrari!

How sad all that is. And probably not too far off.

So, forget about the exterior, its already a Pontiac. How about the interior? Can I get my BMW with big, plastic, ugly, GM buttons and knobs on my bmw dash please? :P

Kirstie_H · May 2003

bgt1, if they can't get GM to do it, perhaps they can outsource to Fisher-Price and get the same results

chile96 · May 2003

mike331 · May 2003

Its been 2 weeks and not 1 issue. My 03 745li has been flawless so far. I test drove an Audi A8, mercedes s430, lexus ls430 and I can say with 110% certainty that this car far outperformed on every level everything i test drove. First impressions from those who see the car is "awe". The body style will get tweaked, you'll wake up, and this car will be the standard for performance and luxury worldwide. Funny thing about the process is that even buying a car in this catagory, they still send out the monkey who wants to sell you paint protection and carpet protection...at $100 off the regular price!!...
lol...I thought to myself what the hell they are thinking.

stray_cat · May 2003

"It is a question, not a statement. I know a group in the early '80s had a hit with the song. I was pretty young. I asked whether that group was the Cars. I did not say that group was the cars."

actually, since you opened with the title heading, "Give credit where credit is due", (a statement), you were in fact STATING that it was the cars who originally did the song, which they didn't, and that i wasn't giving them due credit. check your facts before suggesting that someone else doesn't know what they're talking about.

funkcity · May 2003

So you send in an American designer to get even with the non-supporting German government and you hit them where it really hurts!

The front end loses its attached grill-to-hood unique identity.... and Bang! one down!

You take the back end partially from the 7 series complete with a Catalina Island landing strip for a trunk lid.....and Bang! two down!

You add lights to the back of the vehicle.
No attempt is made to properly blend the rear lights into the natural body lines of the car. It seems that the test mule rear lighting setup was most unfortunately what stuck!...and Bang! three down!

Just for fun we'll add the iDrive controller !
Hey there's an idea!!...and Bang! four down!

And Out.

I guess we showed them...yeah we really showed them!

Now if ever BMW needed an Italian designer it is really NOW!!!

funkcity............out

carguy58 · May 2003

in motor trend. The back end looks like a botched 1999-2000 Mazda Millenia(which is a gorgeous looking car.) We have seen the front end with the famous 1997-2003 Pontiac Grand Prix like design. Combining a Pontiac and a Mazda together doesn't look that good at all.

blkonblk330i · May 2003

For those of you who have not seen the new 5er yet, check this out:

http://germancarfans.com/photos.cfm?PhotoID=3030331.001

idletask · May 2003

Given the vast majority of posts in this forum, I'd say the subject should be s/^Good, //. It looks like the instigator of this forum just made his mind even before he created it. No objectivity at all is to be seen, but then can styling be objective?

Is it just me or do I feel that people make an analogy to existing cars just because they want to?

Isn't a more accurate statement rather "it doesn't look like anything else"?

Once again, nothing replaces seeing the car in real life. Just look at the Z4, on photos and then in real life. Not the same at all.

randomguy11111 · May 2003

Some quick points.

*I created this forum. I wanted a thoughtful discussion of a divisive issue. Not endless debates about Pontiac Grand-am front designs.

*I like the idea of a new look from BMW and see it as necessary to get away from the one sausage, different size problem they had. I am not sure if I like the execution they have done.

*I love the z4 look even if I am very iffy on the 7 series trunk.

*I'd buy the new 5 series, but not on styling. This says a lot because I am deeply impressed with the new E-class.

*Chris Bangle, BMWs lead designer, is very controversial but also influential. He was named designer of the year.

*He and the new designs get mixed reviews. Mixed reviews, contrary to the incorrect modern moving going usage, means some love and some hate.

Mixed reviews means it divisive even among those with great experience or mature styling tastes. This does not mean bad. It means it divides and provokes people. I have no axe to grind either way. I hate Lexus styling (except SC), but generally like the work of Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Infiniti (lately), Jaguar and even new Volvos.

*Mercedes is pursuing the opposite style - making its car look more alike. The C and S are very similar looking, even if innards are different. Is this good or bad? Dunno. They have switched positions - Mercedes looking at continuity, BMW looking for sharp model differences. Who is right? Who knows....

toyo_z · May 2003

well, according to the reviewer on the front page (the review of the z4), the 7-series is going in for a major restyling -next year-. Which will make the current 7-series the shortest-lived design ever for a BMW.

I guess the market has spoken.

randomguy11111 · May 2003

I didn't say I liked the 7-series rear either. Necessary for aerodynamics, but poorly executed.
I have similar concerns about trunk on Chrysler 300M.

Again, the point is a discussion of the future trends and people's responses at a level deeper than "good" and "sucks".

bgt1 · May 2003

not a MAJOR restyling, some minor ones. I beleive all they aer "tweaking" is the back end- that was the most controversial part.

alphamale · May 2003

Another issue being ignored is re-sale values. How does these Revolutionary redesigns affect 5-series resale? The 97 5 was a totally different look, as is this one.
  I certainly appreciate the onl 7 much more now! Movies like "The Transporter" don't help, either!
  Looks like the 2006 3-Series will be Bangle's Final Frontier.
  If BMW wanted an aggressive new direction from Bangle, they got it, for better or worse.

toyo_z · May 2003

It may be a "minor" restyling, but if they replace the current hiddeous butt with a more shapely one, then those poor folks who were "early adopters" of the new 7-series will be stuck with cars that they can't sell. That's the danger of floating a re-redesign so quickly.

I wonder if BMW will have to prop up the "big butt" 7-series resale value in order to help those customers stay with the brand.

bmwguru · May 2003

Yeah the 97 5 series looked a lot different from the previous 5, but you could see the evolution from the 95 7 series. The 2001 7 series is a radical departure from BMW styling, both interior and exterior. There was a familiarity to getting behind the wheel of a BMW. Sitting behind the wheel of the new 7 is a bit unsettling to those who have driven BMW's for many years. It's almost like being in another company's vehicle. Bangle's designs just take a lot of effort to embrace. I'm all for change, but to basically throw out BMW's heritage, just to change is crazy. I hope that BMW's resale values don't plummet because of Bangle's risk taking. Only time will tell.

nvbanker · May 2003

My partner bought an 03 "7", and while they love it "when it's not in the shop", I think the butt is unbelievable. Not sure about the i-drive either. I hear that's a gonner too next year....

Conversely, the new 5 looks ok, and I LOVE the Z-4!

carguy58 · May 2003

Will sales go down? I just don't understand why they are going so radical with their styling. The last company to do that was Pontiac and look what happened to them. I don't think BMW as a company or its owners want to be laughed at the way Pontiac was a 5-10 years ago. The styling leaders now: Mazda, VW, and Nissan are not very radical with their designs but their very sophisticated without being off the wall. BMw designs of the 7 Series and new 5 Series just look "off the wall". A photo of the The new 6 Series in one of the auto magazines claimed the 6 Series design looks like Pontiac's of the past. I did a catch a photo of the new 3 Series too. The Back of it looks very "french" in design. The front end is not that good looking. All of a sudden BMW can't designs front ends of their cars anymore. I remember when Nissan couldn't designs rear ends of their cars in the mid 90's. We all saw what happened to Nissan. I'm not a big BMW fan but they are turning off young people with going radical with designs.

riez · May 2003

carguy58... 745i sales rose over 740i.

You don't think the new Nissan Maxima isn't radical styling? Or the Mazda RX8? Or that the New Beetle wasn't a radical departure from where VW had been in the early 1990s? Or that the new Infiniti G35 hardly looks like its sister I35 or G20? Or that the G35 coupe breaks new ground for Infiniti styling? Or just compare the Cadillac CTS to the Catera.

Is BMW merely playing catch up?

carguy58 · May 2003

Companies like Nissan/Infinti, Mazda, Cadillac, and VW around the mid 90's had big sales declines. In the late 80's/early 90's Nissan and Mazda could no wrong. Then they started to style cars along the lines of the Toyota and lost alot of buyers in the mid 90's. So basically Nissan and Mazda are returning back to their routes. Cadillac had to go radical because their buyers were the oldest in the industry. One you dump your styling routes buyers go away from that specific brand of car unless your Honda and Toyota and have a high following for your reliability which those companies do.

BMW was the styling leader in the late 90's/early 00's. They are going in a totally different direction now so its basically a new era styling wise at BMW.

The 7 Series is not a high volume selling car which the 3 and 5 Series are.

I'll give BMW credit they make some of the best automobiles in the business without question but their new styling direction is very debateable.

Good, Bad or Ugly - Current and Future styling trends of BMW

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