BMW 1-Series

blueguydotcom · October 2007

135 for 30k? No way in hell. try 35k unless you mean european delivery pricing. The 128 will start at 28-29k.

135 at 35k...

Sport package = $1000
Premium Package = $2200
Navi = $2100
Cold Weather = $1000
Comfort Access = $500
Ipod/USB = $400
Automatic = $1200
Metallic Paint = $475
Park Distance Control = $350
Laser Cruise (assuming it's an option) = $2400
Wheel upgrade to 19 inchers = $900
Sat Radio = $500
HD Radio = $350

I can see breaking 40k as pretty easy. Heck just sport, navi, premium, paint and auto pushes the price to 43k.

Flipside, a comparable 335i coupe with those features will run you about 49k

fedlawman · October 2007

All the 1-series really "needs" is the sport package, and it's standard on the 135i. All the other stuff is just wasted money (IMO).

I'm having a hard time putting 135i pricing in perspective with the 300 hp Mitsubishi Evo and Subaru STi on the market. It's a BMW, so it's got to cost more than those $31K economy rockets, yet it can't get too close to the $41K 335i. Somewhere in between (around $36K) is my best guess.

qbrozen · October 2007

don't forget (as I believe has been discussed here before), those both have complicated AWD systems.

jwaggoner · October 2007

That sounds great and it will be a great seller for them but where is BMW going to cut costs? Motor is the same, many of the same materials as the 3 series, only 150 pounds lighter than the 3 series.

fedlawman · October 2007

"both have complicated AWD systems."

More complex than RWD, yes, but not complicated.

blueguydotcom · October 2007

Still you'll have to upsize the wheels or pay extra for the sports seats - like all BMWs I'd imagine. Regardless of their bad marketing (M parts...lol), the 1 will be like other BMWs so the option sheet will be long.

FWIW, I'd go the sport, comfort access route. Don't want the other stuff. And I'd do ED too.

qbrozen · October 2007

well, I don't know what you consider complicated personally, but the EVO and STi use systems that are quite different than those on their lesser brethren (and even very expensive vehicles with "AWD").

Here is an excerpt from motortrend:
For the sake of simplicity, the all-new 2008 Lancer Evolution's Super All-Wheel Control (S-AWC) system should be regarded as the creation of a divine being, for who among us can question the intent of a devilishly complicated system that utilizes multiple clutches and limited-slip differentials, well over a dozen varied sensors, and four-acronym-driven subsystems: Active Center Differential (ACD), Active Yaw Control (AYC), Active Stability Control (ASC), and Sport-Antilock Braking System (S-ABS)? I certainly cannot; even after sitting through a detailed Powerpoint presentation, complete with colored animation, I can barely explain how it works.

fedlawman · October 2007

With the exception of the extra differential and driveshafts (mechanical components that really don't require frequent maintenance), all of those acronyms that are mentioned in the above quote pretty much apply to the BMW too (except for the center diff, of course).

Add all the additional electronic nannies & goodies found on a BMW (Comfort Access, Bluetooth, Brake-fade compensation, Driver memory settings, Adaptive xenon headlights, etc.), and you have a RWD car that's at least as complex, if not more so, than any Mitsubishi or Subaru.

Not saying you're wrong, just providing a counterpoint...

qbrozen · October 2007

electronic nannies & goodies found on a BMW (Comfort Access, Bluetooth, Brake-fade compensation, Driver memory settings, Adaptive xenon headlights, etc.)

but isn't all or most of that stuff optional? We were talking base priced 1-series vs EVO/STi, weren't we? I mean, I thought your point was that a 1-series, with an equally powerful engine but better materials and fit and finish, had to be more than an EVO/STi? In which case, I replied that the EVO/STi have AWD ... in other words, there are more differences than meet the eye that might make them closer in value.

And, of course, there is much more to these AWD systems than slapping on an extra diff and driveshafts. How many limited slips does the mitsu have? it is 2 or 3, i believe. one in the center and one on each axle? Or at least one center and 1 rear. And those rely on electronic inputs, too, not just mechanical like the old-school LSDs.

fedlawman · October 2007

From your perspective, you're right. Differentials cost money, and certainly, the EVO and STi have a lot of value-adding content built into them. However, I don't believe that the actual cost of parts/components figures directly into the MSRP of a car today.

You make a good point that I didn't originally consider, and you may end up being right (I hope so, because I would love to see the 1-series come in a few grand cheaper than I'm guessing).

I still believe that the BMW 1-series is, on paper, a performance peer of the EVO and STi, but since BMW is a "luxury marque" here in the US, BMW will price it higher than the EVO and STi - regardless of the actual cost/value equation of the 1-series.

qbrozen · October 2007

yeah, you are probably right. And it will be a shame.

Even if the 128i is $28k to start, I think it will be a hard sell. At $30k, I think it may be a loser. I could see buyers at $35k on the 135i. More than that and it is tough to justify.

ateixeira · October 2007

That's a long list of options but BMW should not be criticized for offering choice.

If you walk in to a dealership and they don't have any models with less than $8000 in options, then you have a legitimate complaint...

jaxs1 · October 2007

The car makes less and less sense the closer in price it is to a 3-series. If it was way lighter than a 3-series and therefore performed much better, then it would make more sense, but it sounds like all you get is a smaller back seat and not much weight savings.

ateixeira · October 2007

If you're choosing a coupe in the first place, how important is the back seat anyway?

jaxs1 · October 2007

Reasons to go with a smaller car are to have a lighter vehicle that can accelerate, brake, handle better with the same size engine as well as use less fuel. If it only weighs a little less than a 3-series, you won't see those benefits.
Why make the already small 3-series coupe's back seat even smaller if there is no significant cost savings or performance benefit going with the smaller car?

ateixeira · October 2007

The reality here is BMW just needs a car to slot beneath the 3 series now that it doesn't have any car under $30 grand.

If the 1 series is too good it would cannibalize the 3 series.

Besides, if light weight is the goal, why are we talking about massive 19" wheels, heated seats, Navi, etc?

Who here is interested in a base model 128i with no options? That'll be the lightest one.

qbrozen · October 2007

i would say still important, otherwise you'd choose a true sportscar, would you not?

ateixeira · October 2007

A lot of times the back seat is psychological. You can seat 4 "in a pinch". It drops insurance premiums.

We drive alone 90% of the time. Plus, if you own a BMW you probably have more than one car, and the other car will likely be your more practical one (X5 perhaps?).

ateixeira · October 2007

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FullTests/articleId=122859

Even a Caliber is 3248 lbs.

BTW, I'm just playing Devil's Advocate here. Truth is I expected there to be more weight savings as well.

Perhaps the days of light vehicles are just long gone?

fedlawman · October 2007

You're right on the money - it's all about marketing a new entry level car to consumers now that the 3-series has "grown up."

If the 1-series only weighs 100 lbs less than the 3-series, the choice will simply boil down to whether you want the added cabin space of the 3 vs. the lower price of the 1 - they will both be virtually indistinguishable from the driver seat.

I also agree that, from a "fun to drive" point of view, a 128i with no options will be the one to get.

ateixeira · October 2007

Plus, most of the weight you add for the 135i is on the front axle, so the 128 may be better balanced.

kyfdx · October 2007

128i will have 230 hp... It will be plenty fast...

It will be a trendy little car.... I think we aren't getting a hatch or sedan, to keep from cannibalizing 3-series sales..

qbrozen · October 2007

That thought has crossed my mind, too. But, if I'm honest with myself, I know that I will be kept awake at night knowing there was a faster model available. ;b

ateixeira · October 2007

I'm surprised people aren't even discussing that.

Since when is 230hp not enough? It's lighter and more affordable. Even if it starts at $28k, imagine euro delivery, maybe $25-26k?

That seems like a much better value than a loaded 135i. The 128i euro delivered would only have to compete with the VW GTI and base WRX, maybe MazdaSpeed3.

kyfdx · October 2007

An E46 325i with Sport package and only 184 HP is a hoot to drive... The 128i will make that look sick.

blueguydotcom · October 2007

Euro D on a 128 will start at around 23-23.5k (assuming 28-29k MSRP) with 1k dealer profit and shipping included.

That's a stripped car though. Add sport, xenons and you're up around 25k. Or the price of a negotiated WRX.

kernick · October 2007

Don't forget the new Volvo C30 as a competitor to the 128i. If you keep your finger from clicking off the options you'll be able to get a Euro-delivered C30 1.0 model for about $21K. I know its FWD, but so are some of the cars you mention.

blueguydotcom · October 2007

It's a Volvo. It's not even on the same planet.

punkr77 · October 2007

I think way to many people imagine the need for a bigger vehicle.

I lived with a 4 seat coupe as my only car twice. Once for 2 years (Civic EX coupe) and once for 6 years (SVT Cobra). I can count the number of times I actually wished for a bigger back seat on one hand. Now that I'm married, and the wife has a sedan, I feel even less desire for the extra 2 doors. My only complaint was with the Mustangs' small trunk opening (the trunk itself was a great size, it was just difficult fitting anything large through the opening.

That said, the closer the 135i comes to 40k, the less interested in it I am. Especially with the 370Z, and WRX STI on the horizon for less and the Skyline for close to the same price. I'll be very interested on seeing the bottom line price. All I really want is big power, small car, RWD, manual tranny, and a sunroof. Everything else is just fluff to me.

fedlawman · October 2007

I don't completely understand the weight difference between the 128i and 135i.

The turbos and plumbing alone can't weigh 200 lbs. What else is adding weight to the 135i?

jaxs1 · October 2007

More standard equipment?

shipo · October 2007

Heavier engine block, heavier transmission, heavier brakes, heavier wheels and tires, greater number of heavy heat exchangers...

Best Regards,
Shipo

nyccarguy · October 2007

would take the 128i with little options (Sport Package & Heated Seats).

230 hp is plenty for me.

I'll be shocked if BMW brings this car in with a base price of less than $25K. This thing will be a screaming ED deal though!

fedlawman · October 2007

Oops, I didn't think about the block. I didn't know the transmission was different, although I see the gearing is different (more aggressive on the 128i (lower gears and final drive) to aid acceleration).

I do think the difference in weight for the brakes and wheels are negligible.

Thanks

qbrozen · October 2007

you are right. The volvo is much comfier. ;b

sorry, but I just had to do it. I am a fan of many vehicles and many manufacturers and unfounded bashing just seems silly to me.

ateixeira · October 2007

Sport package, sure, although once again you're adding more weight (and unsprung at that) if that means going to bigger wheels.

Xenons, though? Is that truly necessary?

A good halogen light with good optics is fine. Are BMW's halogens that poor?

Or, is your night vision poor?

We don't have autobahns here in the US. Realistically we do not travel at more than 85mph on public roads.

I can see needing xenons in a land where you drive 120mph, but here in the US, xenons are just unnecessary.

Honestly, spend your money on LASIK. I did. My night vision improved tremendously. No more glare from glasses, or dried out contacts. I paid about what the xenon option costs and it's a lifetime upgrade!

You just don't need HIDs at the very, very slow speeds you travel on american roads.

jaxs1 · October 2007

Maybe people who live in rural areas where there are no street lights or who drive aggressively through winding mountain mountains at night.
Otherwise, people buy them because they look cool under the pretense of "safety."

qbrozen · October 2007

I paid about what the xenon option costs and it's a lifetime upgrade!

Ok. I need your doc's info! My bro-in-law had his done 2 years ago and it cost $5k. I've been trying to figure out how to afford that ever since.

kyfdx · October 2007

A lot of people have more trouble with night vision after LASIK.. Halos, sensitivity to headlights, etc, etc..

On the whole, LASIK is a wonderful thing, but YMMV... You don't hear about the dissatisfied customers..

Anything that helps me see better is a good thing... I vote for HIDs..

qbrozen · October 2007

Yeah, i've heard the stories, too, but I hope they've gotten the method down better by now. I mean, they've been doing it for what now? 15 years? Plus, I know there are different methods. There is the old slice and dice and then the one that is completely by laser. My bro-in-law got the latter done, which is the more expensive option and supposedly higher success rate.

fedlawman · October 2007

I think Radial Kiratotomy is the "slice and dice" method.

I would prefer HID's to halogen headlights if the cost was small ($300 or $400), but I wouldn't pay $1,000 for them - the 20 year-old halogen headlights on my car work just fine for me.

I tend to agree that most people want HID's because they look cool (literally and figuratively speaking).

ateixeira · October 2007

IIRC it cost me $2400 for both eyes. I went to lasikplus.com.

No ill side effects here, I'm a poster boy for LASIK. They should pay me!

Funny thing is I had problems with the contacts due to my allergies, so my night vision improved dramatically. My vision is also sharper than it was even with glasses.

Any how, back to HIDs, I can see how they'd be needed on an autobahn, at double the speeds we drive here. But 55mph? Any more range and you almost see TOO far in front of you.

kyfdx · October 2007

Are you implying that I'm shallow??

ateixeira · October 2007

There are bad lights - my Miata's sealed beams were HORRIBLE. You could barely tell they were on.

I replaced them with e-codes and H4 halogen bulbs, much better now!

They key is the optics - the lens itself. With the right shape and focus even a halogen light can be just fine. More than good enough for 55mpg speed limits, anyway.

A picture is worth 1000 words, right?

Look below. On the left is the E-code lens, with a halogen bulb, 55 watts.

On the right is the sealed beam, also 55 watts. THE LIGHTS ARE NOT OFF. They are really that bad.

Proof that good OPTICS can make or break a headlight. :shades:

blueguydotcom · October 2007

Nothing unfounded about it. We've owned a Volvo and we've owned Fords. Both brands have reached the automotive equivalent of heaven as they're totally dead to us.

Unfounded would be if we haven't owned them or experienced them. The little Volvo is a Mazda3 with Volvo/Ford parts tossed in.

blueguydotcom · October 2007

I have perfect vision. BMWs non HID light are trash. I won't buy a car minus HIDs. It's that simple. No reason for it.

55 mph? Where are speeds that low? I do travel at 85+ at night on the freeways. I've seen the north side of 130 on Interstate 15 in the dead of night - albeit that's rare. 100+ on desolate roads isn't rare for me. Additionally, we drive often in totally unlit, "woodsy" areas. HIDs transform a narrow, twisty road into daylight.

I paid far less for my lasik 5 years ago as I've never paid for xenons as a stand-alone option. For lasik I knew the cost, arranged the surgery for January 5, set up my flex spending to cover the cost and got the surgery done. Then I submitted the bill and got a full refund. The next month, I left the company. The beauty of flex spending...I paid several hundred dollars for Lasik. My employer's flex spending picked up the rest. lol

And there's no way i'd consider a BMW without the sport package. Might as well date Jessica Alba and ask her to wear a mumu.

Sorry but those two features are mandatory for me. One last one that I miss: comfort access. To pay $500 so I never have to look for a key again: worth at least 1k to me.

ateixeira · October 2007

I haven't tried Bimmer lights at night, so I wouldn't know. I guess try before you buy.

You drive a whole lot faster than I do. But you also drive a whole lot faster than 99% of americans.

If I was with Jessica I'd want to hide her, just to keep her all to myself!

qbrozen · October 2007

it is still just your personal taste, though. And, yes, you are entitled, of course. I've also owned all of the above, and much more. Volvo, IMHO, is NOT on a "different planet." It just appeals to different senses. Driving dynamics = BMW. Driving comfort = Volvo. BUT, that's not to say the other doesn't do the opposite well. My volvo still handled good (at least the best-handling FWD I've ever had) and had great power (T5). My bimmer isn't exactly uncomfortable. It is just, when you compared the 2, it is obvious which excels at which. If I could combine them, I may very well have my perfect car.

Oh, and no, the volvo is not a mazda3. and the mazda3 is not a volvo. and the focus is not either of the above. the platform was a JOINT VENTURE.

blueguydotcom · October 2007

From our experience, the Volvo was poorly assembled, had parts literally springing off the car and the drive/ride was unbearably Buick-like. My 2003 ZHP was too soft me; how do you think I could live with a Volvo if the performance package equipped BMW was spongy?! I don't want buttery-soft seats. I don't care about wind-noise or tire roar.

They're all based on the Focus. As Volvo and Ford have little interest in quality, performance, handling or anything resembling driving I stand by my assertion...the C30 is a car that's below what I would want - thankfully German and Japanese companies exist. It essentially doesn't exist - just like American cars.

qbrozen · October 2007

They're all based on the Focus.

I guess then the 1-series is based on the mini?? It must be. They are vaguely related, right?

I don't know what volvo you had, but that is a description i have never heard before. It is a good thing I don't base all of my assumptions about bimmers on the one I had the misfortune of having come into my father's shop while I was working there 18 years ago, or I would never own one today (although that one still haunts my dreams).

And if little interest in driving or handling nets an S60R with a suspension setting that professionals deem only worthy of a track ... ok by me. And if a Buick can outhandle my 6-speed Accord like my Volvo did, then I have to say I wouldn't mind that Buick and can you tell me which one?

But, whatever. You go ahead and be biased. It is your right.

And, besides, this isn't the place. I too have the C30 and 1-series on my "must see" list. Maybe after the 1-series is here someone will start a comparison topic. Although the 1-series hatch would have been much better suited.

BMW 1-Series

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