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Cadillac STS/STS-V: What's New for 2007?

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  • pearlpearl Member Posts: 336
    just read the CR "2004 Cars" edition for April '04. While the STS obviously is not yet included, the "reliability" marks for Caddies is ugly. CTS gets a solid black circle (poor) as does the Seville and Escalade. The Deville gets a half black circle (worse than average) while the SRX is "too new" to be rated. As for depreciation, all rated Caddies are average to below average. Folks, this is NOT what Cadillac needs to send to the world as the STS is introduced. There is an email from Cadillac earlier in this thread which talks about quality, fit/finish/etc. Like it or not, the Japanese kick our butts in all of these categories, and while a recent survey said that European marques were declining vs. US brands, CR does not reflect that yet, and at minimum, their depreciation levels are MUCH better than U.S. brands. If I am the Cadillac GM and read this report, I would have subordinates in my office the next morning to figure out how to make the next CR report MUCH better. Some of this may trace to "bad" dealers, but ultimately it all comes home to roost at Cadillac's front door. They don't need it, especially as they near the launch of the STS - BMW killer, and neither do those of us who hope to one day be Caddy owners.
  • theo2709theo2709 Member Posts: 476
    Something is very wrong with the CR report. JD Power rated the CTS with 88 problems per 100 vehicles, third best for any car in North America.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    JDP looks at just the first 90 days in their IQ study. They do have a 5 year durability study, though.

    CR looks long-term, new, 3 years, 5 years, ...

    -juice
  • tornado25tornado25 Member Posts: 267
    I don't want to start a CR flame war, but what I will say applied to JDP/Choicepoint/CR, all of them. These surveys, to an extent, are similiar to these boards.

    There are diehards, regulars here who come here to talk about their CTS because they love it--which is cool! But, most people stumble onto a board specifically to complain or ask a question about a problem.

    So, take the JDP initial reliability study. If I'm a Joe Schmo CTS owner and I get the survey in the mail and I've had no problems, but I'm not an "enthusiast" or otherwise am ambivalent, I probably don't return the survey. However, if I've had problems, you can bet JDP is going to hear about it. At least JDP to an extent is statistically sound, as they choose a sample of all CTS owners and send them a survey. They can't control response rates, except to note it in the margin of error.

    CR, OTOH, only sends surveys to its readers. Maybe CR readership is a sound statistical sample of CTS owners. But, we don't know that--maybe only after a problem does that owner buy CR. Or, maybe the reader is an overanalytical worrier who researches everything and used CR in his purchase.

    In any event, let's say CR readership is demographically representative. Their responses still are driven in the same way as JDP's--people with problems or are just complainers are more likely to reply than people that may be perfectly happy, just aren't gung ho about cars and don't realize a response of all "goods" is just as important as a reply of all "poors".

    In any event, I just can't bring myself to accept CR's data because I don't *believe* it to be demographically representative. JDP isn't perfect, but IMO is more statistically sound.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    JDP emphasizes their IQ study, which only covers the first 90 days! Who cares? It's under warranty anyway, and it's only a forecast of how reliability will turn out.

    That might matter if you lease a new car every 2 years. But give me long-term info any day, far more useful.

    Their Durability Study at least has *some* significance.

    -juice
  • tornado25tornado25 Member Posts: 267
    "JDP emphasizes their IQ study, which only covers the first 90 days! Who cares? It's under warranty anyway, and it's only a forecast of how reliability will turn out."

    You're absolutely right. But, the one thing it does help with is determines how well the car is put together from the very get. That is, is Caddy's probs/100 go down over time, that tells me they are doing a better job putting together the car or paying more attention to detail, etc. Aside from that, it doesn't do much else.

    I was reading an article today that was linked somewhere (I think in the Chrysler 300 board) that pointed out that the car with the most problems today has fewer problems than the best car 10 or 20 years ago. The point? Our expectations have become so high that any squeak, rattle or minor failure is a big deal. FWIW--but that improvment makes it that much harder to judge who *really* is good and who isn't.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    You would think so, but not necessarily.

    The fact that the H2 got poor scores for gas mileage does not mean it was put together poorly.

    It's silly that they even factor that in, that's not a quality issue. It's burning gas just fine (actually, TOO well, LOL).

    They also factored in the Mini's cup holder design. Gimme a break.

    -juice
  • pearlpearl Member Posts: 336
    I agree that the CR commentary re problems/reliability/etc are very subjective; however, they do base their results on real data (and not just onesy-twosy inputs). Bottom line is that the CR ratings make the Caddy line look very bad in terms of reliabilty and potential trade-in value. Whether anyone likes it or not, CR is the "gold standard" for rating/evaluating cars in America - at least those most likely to be purchased by non-exotic buyers. Millions of people read their magazine and accept it as their bible for every type of purchase. Bottom line is that Caddilac MUST do better on quality re STS....
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Well, after seeing the success of the CTS, I think they might be willing to invest a little more in quality control and materials cost.

    -juice
  • cornellpremedcornellpremed Member Posts: 58
    There's a strong correlation between the cars that do well on JD Power's IQS, and their long term survey.

    The Consumer Reports results are just bogus. I remember when the "black circle" for the CTS came out. It was a while back, not long after JD Power declared the CTS to be the 5th most well built car sold in America (after 2 Lexuses, and 2 Chevrolets).

    Something ain't right with the CR survey. I think their sample size must have been vanishingly small. Then again, their methods in general are much more suspect than JD Power's.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I'll respectfully disagree.

    If you look at cars like VWs they do well in the IQ study but fall flat in the Durability Study.

    Mazdas tend to be the opposite. The Isuzu Trooper wasn't so good in the IQ study but took #2 in class for the Durability Study.

    IQ is just a forecast, often misleading.

    And please, someone tell me what poor gas mileage has to do with Quality?!

    CR is just gathering data and they report more detail, so IMO it's more valuable info. You just have to take it FWIW.

    -juice
  • cornellpremedcornellpremed Member Posts: 58
    "If you look at cars like VWs they do well in the IQ study but fall flat in the Durability Study."

    Volkswagens are junk. They're superficially well put together, and fall apart easily. Volkswagen/Audi is the perfect example of what's wrong with the German auto industry. They stress perceived quality at the expense of actual quality. You can only fool people so many times.

    Volkswagen picked up a lot of yuppie buyers in the late 90's, but now these people aren't coming back to VW because of the bad experiences that they've had.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,148
    Let's get back to the upcoming Cadillacs, please.

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  • bostnwhalrbostnwhalr Member Posts: 128
    Hey, I thought I'd throw this one out there since none of the automotive press has mentioned it to date.

    The reviews are coming in on the new Chrysler 300C. While the styling is quite different, it has a very American bad-[non-permissible content removed] look to it with the chopped greenhouse. Old E-Class chassis, 340hp HEMI, tons of room, nice handling, 18" wheels. Nice interior (for a Chrysler). Available with AWD (this Fall). $33k base to $40k max. Available now.

    Autoweek did a recent story on it. Really appealed to a wide range of people, particularly younger people.

    http://www.autoweek.com/cat_content.mv?port_code=autoweek&cat- _code=coverstory&loc_code=index&content_code=04277743

    Now, no one has mentioned this, and I'm probably out here in left field, so please don't spank me, but do you think that the 300C is a valid competitor to the upcoming STS? I know, the Cadillac name is more prestigious, but if you're looking for an American luxury sedan, with decidedly American attitude, wouldn't you consider the 300C (unless you're a GM loyalists)? My gut instinct tells me that people might. Plus, the 300C will underprice the STS by $15k or so.
  • rctennis3811rctennis3811 Member Posts: 1,031
    I think people will actually cross-shop the two! They're both big, bulky, powerful American sedans. Princing-wise though I'll take a 300C over an STS V8.
  • cornellpremedcornellpremed Member Posts: 58
    Where did you see the STS pics?
  • theo2709theo2709 Member Posts: 476
    At the GM Media site. ;)
  • rctennis3811rctennis3811 Member Posts: 1,031
    Oh, so you have that special ID huh. Lucky...
  • rctennis3811rctennis3811 Member Posts: 1,031
    Yes, we have all seen that picture and we, too, are all stunned by the good looks. Might as well since I'm talking about the interior make some comments:

    -real wood looks awesome
    -dash looks great
    -door panelings stink. i would love to see layers of leather overlapping each other in the door panels just like Lexus does
    -and is it just me or are the climate controls TOO low? I would've rather had them up a little bit higher, but that's just a small thing.

    Overall Caddy did an awesome job!
  • theo2709theo2709 Member Posts: 476
    "-door panelings stink. i would love to see layers of leather overlapping each other in the door panels just like Lexus does"

    Who said it doesn't have that? ;)
  • gteach26gteach26 Member Posts: 576
    I must have been on Pluto because I hadn't seen that interior pic yet -- still, it was a refreshing surprise to see how far caddy interiors are coming along.

    Is the caddy emblem on the steering wheel on that pic covered up with something or is it supposed to look that way? I know we'll see the real deal in a few weeks -- just curious. The steering wheel emblem on the XLR looks very nice -- I hope the STS has something similar.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Interior looks OK, but could have been a little more imaginative.

    -juice
  • theo2709theo2709 Member Posts: 476
    Requested parts of the interior:

    door handle
    emblem
  • gteach26gteach26 Member Posts: 576
    That emblem on the steering wheel looks nice. Do you know where I can find more interior pics before New York? If you cannot post them here feel free to email me. :)
  • theo2709theo2709 Member Posts: 476
    I would, but your email is private!
  • mbukukanyaumbukukanyau Member Posts: 200
    Is an Infiniti M45 and Lincoln LS competitor not a Cadillac STS competitor. I think GM will be forced to revamp Chevy Impala and perhaps a Pontiac to counter the ford Chrysler onslaught with Sedans.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    HAs anyone seen the back of this car yet? I would like to see the back and more inside pics of the car. If there is a way to see them let me know.
  • rctennis3811rctennis3811 Member Posts: 1,031
    WOW! Thank goodness the production version has overlapping layers of leather on the door panels! Great job! You do have a media ID for the GM website don't you... ;) Lucky...
  • gteach26gteach26 Member Posts: 576
    I am de-privatizing my email as we speak.. I didn't know I had it set up that way... If you've got 'em, fire away with links and pics... and thanks!!
  • gteach26gteach26 Member Posts: 576
    and in it was carved with the letters "STS" on the gorgeous wood paneling on the dash -- thanks theo2709. So far, on my initial impressions (yes I know I haven't seen it in person, sat in it, yada,yada), the STS looks like an import killer -- at what will probably be a MUCH better bang for the buck. Funny, just a few short weeks ago Caddy was nowhere near my radar -- now it sits at the top of my list for my upcoming car search. I've never driven a V8 northstar -- must be sweet.
  • theo2709theo2709 Member Posts: 476
    That was only the V6 version gteach ;)

    Pics of the Northstar trim with the aluminum accents are to come.
  • sevenfeet0sevenfeet0 Member Posts: 486
    I'm sorry to hear that you've had problems with your 1999 STS, but you've provided no details outside of your blistering editorial and accusations of the two local dealerships in Nashville. I don't care much for Crest Cadillac, but I've never been treated with anything but respect at Andrews, both in sales and service. They haven't been perfect, but they've been very good overall.

    Also, the name of the manager you dropped here. Does he work for Andrews? Crest? Is he a Cadillac zone manager? Have you discussed your vehicle issues with the Cadillac zone manager? Finally, your car is now 5 years old and is undoubtably out of warranty. What was your experience getting the Cadillac zone manager to handle your issues while the car was in warranty?

    I'd like to take your gripe seriously, but you haven't given enough detail outside of vitriol. It might be understandable, but please educate us of your problem and what you've tried to do to get a suitable resolution.
  • d2000one1d2000one1 Member Posts: 47
    Please send me the pictures that you have also. I would love to see it.

    Thanks,

    d2000one
  • gteach26gteach26 Member Posts: 576
    Does anyone have a good idea of when the STS is coming out? I know April is the intro... when will production begin? Also, is the V8 coming out much later than the 6? The caddy website just has a cryptic "fall 2004"
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I smell a troll. That post should be deleted because it mentions specific names.

    -juice
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,148
    goner.

    No names posted unless it's your own, and even then I'd be wary!

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  • 1txbanker1txbanker Member Posts: 8
    theo2709, could you please email me the pics of the new STS. I am a huge fan and love what I have seen so far. My email is in my profile.

    Thanks.
  • mbukukanyaumbukukanyau Member Posts: 200
    Lets see em
  • theo2709theo2709 Member Posts: 476
    Both of your emails are private. I'm not sure if I went to send them anymore, anyway. I may be mean and make you wait until April. ;)
  • mbukukanyaumbukukanyau Member Posts: 200
    Check again
  • theo2709theo2709 Member Posts: 476
    OK, mbukukanyau, you get the last batch. ;)
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    Hook me up too, I know my email isnt private. I want to see some clear pics of the interior.
  • 1txbanker1txbanker Member Posts: 8
    My email is public. I would really appreciate the pics. Thanks.
  • 1txbanker1txbanker Member Posts: 8
    Any news on the final engine specs? Has anyone heard if Cadillac will offer a manual on the V6 model? It seems to me that in price, engine choices and size this will compete well against the BMW 5 series... which offers a manual with both the V6 and V8.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,148
    Let's steer clear of asking to contact each other via e-mail.

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  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    He doesnt have to contact me, just send me the pics via email. I still want to see them.
  • theo2709theo2709 Member Posts: 476
    "I know my email isnt private. I want to see some clear pics of the interior."

    Check that again.

    Anyway, I've been getting good responses back. Cadillac may be able to win over some import buyers with this one.
  • golfnut5golfnut5 Member Posts: 202
    There are many comments on this board about Cadillac competing with the imports. It is not a matter of competing with the imports it is a matter of beating the imports. If the new Caddy's are only just as good as the imports, import drivers will not switch over to the new Caddy's. GM has made giant steps, but needs to keep pushing hard and BEAT the imports. Beating means better quality at a better price.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    I thought it wasnt private because another townhall member emailed me to harrass me a few weeks ago. sheth79@aol.com

    sorry about that
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,148
    1487, I'd delete that post once contact has been made - spammers mine the boards for e-mail addys.

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