Cadillac STS/STS-V: What's New for 2007?

mbukukanyau · July 2004

Cadillac is really not a new brand like Lexus. Its not like the are starting from Scratch. No, they have been around for 100 Years. That should factor into the equation. Meanwhile, Cadillacs are holding up their value. Check out Auto trader for a Used CTS. Its not cheap.

bhill2 · July 2004

The problem is that they are not starting from scratch; they are starting from less than scratch. They lost the luxury car crown to other makes because of cheap shortcuts and screw-ups. Now they have to try to overcome that history and claw their way back up the reputation heap. If they really have their act together with the product, selling them at a lower price for a while might be a good move.

sevenfeet0 · July 2004

I'm not sure given what I've seen that the STS pricing is really out of line. The comparison to the Jaguar S-type is a good one, but there are others. Most people don't think that BMWs are great values (in fact, lousy), but they command top dollar on reputation and street cred.

For the top dollar prices of a 545i (55K for an automatic), a V8 STS starts below 50K. The real deal for a lot people will be the 255 HP V6 STS. It starts at around $41K, just like the 525i and the Cadillac gives you significantly more horsepower. Even the 3.0L V6 found in the 530i only give you 225 HP and will cost you 45K to get into that vehicle for a base price.

Cadillac learned from the SRX that they can sell a lot of V6 versions if they give the customers a choice. Cadillac offers all three major option packages with the V6 engine on this car. How many 545i's do you see on the road versus their 525i and 530i sisters? I think it you crunch the numbers and do the comparisons, Cadillac had a good story here.

sevenfeet0 · July 2004

I was in my local dealership yesterday, and although the STS is still a few weeks away from being delivered to a dealer showroom, the product brochures are available so I picked up one and was pleasantly surprised by a few things.

First, Cadillac spends a lot of time and pages dissecting the engineering of the car, which tells me that they sincerely believe that the engineering is competitive to everything else out there. There are photos of the bare chassis, cross sections, bare engine blocks (V6 & V8) and transmission.

Second, the fold-out centerfold of the brochure is the dashboard, which means that they obviously think the interior is competitive. One thing about the top of the line 15 speaker Bose system is that for the first time in Bose history, it seems that they are trying to support standards in the video and audio business. In addition to being able to display DVD movies on the large touch screen when the vehicles is in park, the new system supports DTS audio discs and DVD-audio discs. In fact, Cadillac boasts that this is the first application of a 6-DVD changer in a vehicle as opposed to just a CD-changer.

More to come as I finish reading the rest of the details...

mbukukanyau · July 2004

Also consider that the STS is much bigger than the 5 being mid point between the 7 and the five.

rcf8000 · July 2004

It will be interesting to see whether the car magazines will comparison test the STS and 300C. The results of that would be VERY interesting, considering the huge price difference.

joegod · August 2004

What is in the QAF package ? I have been looking
through the Features and Options packages and have not found what is included.

rayainsw · August 2004

"QAF Performance Handling Package, includes Tires,
P235/45ZR18 18" Michelin Pilot Sport, front and
P255/45ZR18 rear (summer only tires) and
Performance Brake Linings
1 - Not available for 2005 Model Year start-up. Requires
(M22) Transmission, 5-speed automatic, RWD. Not
available with (MV3) Transmission, 5-speed automatic,"

This option / package did not initially have an RPO designation.

This quote is from a later, updated order guide.

Cheers,
- Ray
Still waiting for real, production examples to check out . . .

mbukukanyau · August 2004

"It will be interesting to see whether the car magazines will comparison test the STS and 300C. The results of that would be VERY interesting, considering the huge price difference."

That is like saying to compare the crown Victoria or Lincoln town car with a Benz S class

erickpl · August 2004

one of the mags did a comparo between a Ford Focus (modified) vs a Lamborghini...

-Paul

sevenfeet0 · August 2004

The 300c is a nice vehicle, but it lost to the CTS in the recent Road and Track comparison test (V6 version).

rcf8000 · August 2004

There are a lot more similarities between the STS and the 300C than there are differences. They are about the same size and weight, but the 300C has a roomier back seat and trunk. They both have IRS. According to Car and Driver tests, the STS is quieter and better handling, but the 300C is quicker. Like comparing an S Class to a Crown Vic? NOT.

abe · August 2004

car and driver didnt compare the sts with the 300c because of price differences. they compared the 300c with the crown vic and a bonneville. the sts has a few more gadgets than the 300c and handles a little better than the 300c. still would be a nice head to head comp.

eaton53 · August 2004

The 300C will lose. I've driven one and it's fast, but not athletic at all - its weight can really be felt in the corners. An SRX will out-handle it and it rides quite a bit higher than the STS.

"One-dimensional" is how I would describe the 300C.

mbukukanyau · August 2004

Apparently a WRC based Focus is a Lambo in Sheeps clothing. I saw that comparo

rcf8000 · August 2004

Not to belabor the point, but in Road and Track tests the 300C turned in a higher slalom speed than the STS with 1SG package. So I don't think the 300C is a "one trick pony".

eaton53 · August 2004

Regardless of what their slolom speed was (I've never done a slolom on a public road in my life), it handles about as well as an '04 Malibu Maxx - I drove them back to back. They both put up quite a fuss in hard cornering... drifting out, tire squeal, etc. It's not athletic, nor particularly confidence inspiring.

I've also driven and SRX with and without Magnaride. The one without would also drift out in a hard corner. The one with Magnaride was awesome, especially for an SUV. A much better drive than the 300C. Of course, that's to be expected given the $55K sticker - although I was offered a similarly equipped demo with only 2K miles at another dealer for $40K.

pearl · August 2004

It was part of an early marketing/demo effort by Cadillac - by invitation (which you could get by visiting your dealer). They had two cars - a CTS-V, and and an STS, at a Baltimore hotel (I think that this is part of a traveling road show). Both cars were black with black interiors. Given that the lighting in the room was not bright the interiors were somewhat hard to truly gauge, but I liked the STS - material quality seemed good and everything fell right to hand, or could be adjusted. Seats felt comfortable, but firm, with lots of controls for adjustments. The steering column could be moved electrically up/down/in/out. While you couldn't turn anything on (so the instrument panel was black/dark), my sense was that this would be an easy car to get used to. Two negative impressions were that the driver's footwell seemed narrow - I wanted to be able to place my left foot a little further left, and outward visibility did not seem great - however, this may have been an impression gained by the low light in the room. Outside, this car is more than a "larger CTS". It's lines are softened, and while it is only about six inches longer than the CTS, seemed bigger than that to me - just an impression. Trunk space is not very good, so fold-down rear seats will be important if you plan to carry very much. There were no body side protective moldings on this car - perhaps they will be options, if not, expect some dings (the CTS had them). No question that the STS looked good and will turn some heads. Cadillac reps in the room said that they would start showing up at dealerships in about three weeks.

bigdaddycoats · August 2004

"There were no body side protective moldings on this car "

They do not have them. I find this a serious omission I would not want my $50k car having door dings on it because of a lack of side moldings.

markcincinnati · August 2004

I have not driven either car. I have driven an SRX with Magna. I watched time and again the Speed Channel "love fest" test report of the 300C RWD.

The early, not mainstream, comments about the 300C AWD are impressive as is the fully loaded price just south of $40K (W/AWD).

Now, certainly there are differences between a $40K and a $60K car. But, this, IMHO, would be a comparison that, were I Cadillac, I would NOT relish. For even if the Cadillac won, which one would presume it would, many would say "it ought to, it costs 50% more!"

However, if the subjective vs objective differences added to a "final" score are "close," the Cadillac will, in effect, lose on value.

The 300C was favorably compared on the Speed Channel review to cars including the 7 Series and the Audi A8.

I thought these comparisons were "far fetched" to say the least.

But they are out there and I see this comparison (300C vs STS) as valid, very valid indeed -- especially in AWD guise.

1487 · August 2004

why is everyone obsessed with comparing the 300c to the STS? The 300c is a better value than EVERY V8 luxury car in the $50K range, not just the STS. MB shouldnt relish a comparison between a $60K E500 and a 300c. Why is everyone assuming the STS will be the only victim of the 300c?

rayainsw · August 2004

http://www.detnews.com/2004/autosconsumer/0408/11/f01-238683.htm

First drive impressions of the AWD in print that I have seen.
- Ray
Still waiting for an RWD to see and drive . . .

mantag · August 2004

went to the bethesda, md hyatt for the road show by invitation. my impressions are still mixed. overall - a nice effort. it will sell, but:

did not notice there was no body side moldings!
side turn markers look cheap - they should have been incorporated into the side mirrors - even a chevy tahoe has that!
no under hood light.
rear leg room - still marginal
trunk lighting - no improvement - s/b some sort of a strip flourescent light - no one has that!
interior head-liner, still that cheap fuzzy looking cloth - geez!
interior felt cramped.

i'll wait for the 2006 sts-v before i even consider.
still love my 1999 sts crimson pearl!

pearl · August 2004

now that I have had a chance to see an STS "in the flesh" and sit in one, I basically like the car (obviously still anxious to drive one); however, I am concerned that Cadillac is over pricing this car by bundling desirable options with things many people don't want. Caddy has been wandering in the wilderness while the Germans and Japanese took the luxo car market away from them. Now that they are back with potentially desirable models - and even if they hold up immediately in terms of quality, resale, etc - they will need a least a couple of years to entrench themselves against competition that now has the reputation they once did. I think that Lexus did it right when they started 15 years ago by offering a great car at a good price, then as they gained acceptance were able to move the price up fairly quickly. The base price on the STS models isn't too bad; however, some options (e.g. AWD) are only available in conjunction with all kinds of other gegaws that many people won't want. $62+K for an STS just to get AWD will run off buyers that Cadillac otherwise could attract. Just my opinion, but I think they are not starting this out right.

jb7227 · August 2004

Ordered new STS June 30th from dealer - V8, RWD, 1SF pkg, adaptive cruise, & tuscany leather (Blk/Cashmere)
Was told to expect delivery around Labor Day

We have road show coming to Boston on Aug 30th

Wonder how much dealer will be willing to negotiate (MSRP should be around 62K)

Only thing im not crazy about - the Caddy logo on adaptive cruise models looks a little too big - to hide the sensor, evidently

theo2709 · August 2004

What is this road show exactly? You've piqued my interest.

jb7227 · August 2004

Maybe "road show" might be a stretch - according to the invitation, there will be a showing of the 2005 STS w/cocktails and hors d'oeuvres at the Boston Harbor Hotel (Rowes Wharf) - I would assume that some GM marketing brass will be there however I dont imagine we will be able to drive any cars. I figured it would be wise to take a look at a car that I ordered two months ago sight unseen!!! (except for magazines) Hopefully, cars will be arriving at dealerships soon. I saw an article in Automotive News that Caddy is anticipating 70% of demand will be for the V6 - they are learning from their mistakes with the SRX launch when they produced mostly V8's (and customers got sticker shock)

pearl · August 2004

This "road show" is probably the same one that I went to ten days ago in Baltimore. They had an 05 CTS-V and a new STS (both with black exterior/interior). Cocktails/snacks served and lots of local dealer folks hovering around. I posted my comments on both cars earlier in this thread. Since then, I finally had a chance to read the CU test of sporty cars in which they liked the CTS-V, but trashed it (and other CTS's)for bad reliability. I was praying that this would not happen. Cadillac absolutely does not want to come out of the gates with basically desirable cars that have an immediatley bad rep for quality. The CTS has sold well and perhaps the STS will too; however, if buyers start spending alot of time in the shop for repairs/recalls we will see a big drop off in sales without the customary big discounts/rebates/etc, which will immediately torpedo any resale value. If I were the Caddy GM, I would be on my staff 24/7 about quality. For those of us cheering for them, they just cannot let these cars sink for crappy quality. Geez, you would have thought that this would have been job one for these cars.

bigdaddycoats · August 2004

Cars are now being shipped to dealers.

mbukukanyau · August 2004

I finally had a chance to read the CU test of sporty cars in which they liked the CTS-V, but trashed it (and other CTS's)for bad reliability. I was praying that this would not happen. Cadillac absolutely does not want to come out of the gates with basically desirable cars that have an immediatley bad rep for quality.

I wonder where they get their data since JD powers rates Cadillac as more reliable than Toyota 3 Years in a row. And CTS is one of the mass marketed cars for Cadillac after Deville and Escalade.
The Grand River Michigan plant where the STS/SRX/CTS are produced has been ranked ahead of all plants in the US for quality control for years ahead of NUMMI and Toyota/Nissan/ Honda plants in North America.

markcincinnati · August 2004

CU's ratings for cars, and this is speaking my opinion, are not a basis for chosing a car, period. All cars are expensive to maintain and repair.

Most cars can be had with extended and extensive warranties, and many dealers will sell you prepaid scheduled maintenance packages that approximate Audi's and BMW's "all inclusive" service programs.

If you like the car and if you find multiple sources (automotive journals, not "horizontal" publications such as CU's) that rate it highly, go for it.

CU saying a car is or is not reliable impresses and influences me not. Now, let's see what they have to say about the Whirlpool washer and dryer pair though. . . .

Remember CU used to rate Radio Shack speakers "well"? At the same time Stereo Review and High Fidelity rarely rated speakers from "the Shack" highly. Sometimes CU impresses me as a car magazine (if they really were one) that weighs the car and figures out that the Porsche isn't as good as the Mustrang, since the Mustang is heavier [sic] -- CU equates quality and reliability, as if they are interchangable words, their meanings are so close. Most of us rate mechanical things for several reasons and although reliability certainly could be one of those reasons, it is hardly the sole determinate of "quality." Regardless of their reliability according to CU, the CTS and the SRX for that matter, seem to be quality cars.

pearl · August 2004

Unfortunately, MANY people read CU and swear by it, particularly their frequency of repair ratings, which was my point. I have no idea how accurate they are (I believe that they are mostly compiled via reader surveys), but the issue is that you don't want your favorite (fill-in) brand showing all those black circles for poor reliability when your competition has the red ones for high reliability. This is just very bad publicity that Caddy does not need as they bring the STS out of the gate.

ken6 · August 2004

I've just priced the new STS out on Edmunds and it came up even higher than it had previously - I see the AWD has a gas guzzler penalty for 1k - this is the biggest draw back that I can see to this car, small fuel tank, poor range. At 60 miles per day for my commute, I'm thinking the Mercedes E320 cdi is a better choice for a little less money. What does it take to be deemed a "gas guzzler" anyway - the E500 has the same problem?

rayainsw · August 2004

"small fuel tank, poor range"

Perhaps not the biggest issue - for me - but an issue.

Several cars that Caddy seems to see as STS competition have 22 - 23+ gal. tanks, at least. (Audi A8L = 23.7, Jaguar XJ8 = 22.3) And the Jag offers a 6-speed trans, with rpm @ 60 mph = 1600 and commensurate very good (for a large and heavy luxury / sport sedan) highway fuel mileage.

In fact, the Jag would (theoretically) allow a comfortable highway cruising range of 28 (EPA mpg) times 20 gal. (with a reserve) of over 550 miles. Pretty impressive to me.

- Ray
Still waiting for the first STS to be delivered to the local dealer . . .

rayainsw · August 2004

"I've just priced the new STS out on Edmunds and it came up even higher than it had previously"

You need to be a bit careful with some of Edmunds pricing. In the case of the '05 STS, it will allow you to configure / price a set of options that is really incorrect. For instance, you can specify both 1SG and 1SF option groups (1SG actually includes equipment in 1SF) and also add a sunroof for another $1,200 - and the sunroof is already included in the package.

Thus, it shows a MSRP of just over $70K. Should be just over $60K for a 1SG (Premium / Luxury / Performance, including sunroof) - on caddys web site.

- Ray
Thinking even $60K is too high, but that's another story . . .

bigdaddycoats · August 2004

The local dealer here in Rochester, MI just got one in. Parked right in front this morning.

joegod · August 2004

Fill us in, what's the story. Did you check it
out ? What color - V6 vs V8 - Window sticker price ? Etc.

bigdaddycoats · August 2004

Sorry, I did not have time to check it out today. Maybe tomorrow. It is silver. Light platinum, I think.

pearl · August 2004

I have now decided to wait until the new GS, M45, RL, A6 come out, as well as a closer look at the E500 before I get too hot over the STS. I think Caddy has made a big mistake in pricing this baby so high with desirable options. We'll see, but given this cost, it is not instantly obvious what advantage the STS has over other competitors. I am looking forward to seeing/driving all of them.

quemfala · August 2004

Just think of CU's target audience -- they would tend to trash any vehicle that they didn't consider "green". For my money, I'll do my own research, drive the car, check the warranty and get some excitement! Look at the atrocious quality and service of some VW's and they still are selling.

bigdaddycoats · August 2004

The dealer had two and they have both been sold. They now have a third one - a base V6 with no options, $40995. It does not appear to have been preped yet. If I have some time this weekend I am going to check it out.

markcincinnati · August 2004

A base STS for essentially an MSRP of $41K.

A Chrysler 300C with AWD and ALL possible options will be about $40K.

Having not driven either, but having driven a very nice SRX (which was $50K) and having my buds here at the office tell me that the 300C when well equipped is a lux sport, emphasis on lux and grunt, but not a "rough around the edges car" -- makes me hope that one or more of the car "journals" gets an American giant test underway quickly.

The AWD fully equipped Chryco will be over $20K less than the Cadillac. I know the ruckus this is likely to cause, but -- I think the Cadillac is "better" -- but not $20K better, perhaps $10K if the STS V8 AWD with the high zoot packages were only $50K compared with the $40K V8 AWD 300C.

You can't argue, either that a used STS will not plummet in value, just like an Audi A8, BMW 7 or Mercedes (pick your class) E or higher.

Magna ride is a wortwhile and valuable "differentiator" -- maybe On*star is worth a few bucks, maybe the hood ornament is worth a thou or two -- but these cars, until or unless properly vetted by the auto journalists are at least superficially similar enough that one would have to think twice about the $20 grand.

I remember the time when ford produced a car that if you squinted your eyes pretty good and you were about 100 feet away kinda, sorta looked like a Mercedes E.

So, Ford started a campaign comparing this Ford sedan with a Mercedes sedan, they showed the cars parked side by side, painted the same color.

They spoke of the Ford in the same terms that Mercedes was usually spoken of. They said the Ford had a "library quiet ride" and a suspension system that would rival the Merc, and on and on and on. There was NO comparison.

Then Chrysler brought out the Lancer and must've paid Motor Trend or some other Automotive Journal to run a test of the Lancer and a BMW 5 series, "as if" they were remotely in the same class.

Those days, those comparisons were obviously apples to pears.

The STS vs the 300C "ought" to be apples to pears, if for no other reason than the price. But unlike these "leaps of faith" from the past, there is some merit in the comparison. Sure, the outgoing 300M would not hold up as being in the same league as the new STS, but the 300C when luxed-up as close as possible to the STS content level (with its option packages that include the kitchen sink) is "at least in the same continent" unlike the old comparos where the cars weren't even from the same planet!

As a current Audi owner and currently looking at the new A6 (and not ruling out downsizing to the all new upcoming A4 with the "big engine") the Acura RL, possibly another Japanese or two from Infinity or Lexus -- I have to keep an open mind and at least test the 300C AWD when it comes out in a few months. Yet, equipped as I would want it, the STS is over $10,000 higher than any other "contenders" for my money and over $20,000 higher when compared to the 300C.

The STS pricing seems out of bounds -- I thought the approach was the Lexus approach, you know start low, set expectations high with a "bargain" price and blow everyone's mind by exceeding expectations by a country mile.

At this price point, I cannot see how Cadillac can EXCEED my expectations -- so I tend to look elsewhere.

I guess I'll just take my licks from y'all now.

eaton53 · August 2004

The 300C lacks athleticism.

You can put a nice interior in a Crown Vic or Camry and get the "luxury" part, but the "sport" part of the luxury sport equation is the expensive part. It's even harder to get the balance between luxury and sport just right, which IMO has been done in the new Cadillacs.

etcarroll · August 2004

Hey Big -

If I recall, you're about my size, 6'3". 300lbs here, would you be so kind as to;
put drivers seat fully down and back on track,
note foot position,
where knees and elbows lie,
note thoughts on hip and shoulder room.

TIA
Gene

rayainsw · August 2004

"$1,500 Offer* for non-GM owners toward purchase of a new 2005 Cadillac STS.

*Offer valid toward purchase of any new and unused eligible 2005 Cadillac STS. Not available with employee discounts. Only one conquest offer may be applied per eligible transaction. Conquest and loyalty offers cannot be combined. Must show proof of current non-GM vehicle registration and take delivery by 09/07/04. See dealer for details." - from the Caddy web site

Same for a Lease.

- Ray
Owner of a non-GM vehicle . . .

rayainsw · August 2004

I have seen 17 / 26 posted in C+D and R&T for the RWD V8.

I still see no official mention of EPA estimates on Caddy's web site.

Anyone seen a window sticker for a V8? I understand they are starting to arrive at dealers . . .

- Ray
Still waiting to see one in 3D . . .

rayainsw · August 2004

Well, looking at pictures of a V6 STS on eBay - mentioned in another thread  I am immediately struck by the EPA rating of 17 / 24.

For the V6.

Car and Driver and Road and Track both reported (mfr. Est.) EPA 17 / 26 - for the V8!!

Has anyone seen a window sticker for a V8? Whats the bad news?

Thanks,
- Ray
Disappointed . . .

rcf8000 · August 2004

Since the rating for an RWD V8 SRX is 15/21, I wouldn't be optimistic about the STS's mileage. Also, the real-world mileage reported in the various car magazines' tests of the STS have been pretty low. Considering that the cars are arriving in dealerships, it is amazing but perhaps not surprising that Cadillac is slow in getting the numbers out. I also wonder about the various rear axle ratios being offerred, which is unusual. One would think that the mileage would be different with different ratios.

seville · September 2004

Bad news! Drove a V8 and it screamed. Problem is my golf clubs would not fit in the trunk horizontally. They did fit vertically. I have been an STS owner for over 10 yrs. Guess I'll have to look at the S mercedes or the 300C for the performance and space I need/want. Didn't see much difference in the STS and CTS side by side. Sorry Cadillac, but you screwed up!

eaton53 · September 2004

S-Class - A lot more money for equal performance.

300C - Can't match the STS athleticism. Heck, the V8/Magnaride SRX is more athletic, even with the added ride height.

Glad Cadillac's got their priorities straight - hauling [non-permissible content removed] over hauling golf clubs. That's why Buick exists....

Cadillac STS/STS-V: What's New for 2007?

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