Cadillac STS/STS-V: What's New for 2007?

jerrymcshane1 · January 2005

I take it your INCLUDING the $1,500 customer loyalty rebate? I've "priced" 2 STS 6 cyl. each with the paint job as the ONLY option. Sticker on both is $41,990. My BEST deal (then the dealer asked me how much LOWER he had to go to sell me the car) was $38,295 which includes the above mentioned rebate. This is ONLY about 8.5% OFF the sticker for a dealer profit of about $2,837. About $1K MORE than their holdback. You're correct though, these cars are HOT, which means NO deals at all on them right now.

volvodan1 · January 2005

Holdback isn't a part of profit. $1,000 over invoice is a great deal on these. If it's anything like the CTS, there will be virtually no incentives.

jerrymcshane1 · January 2005

My "math" on this car your referring to. Sticker $49,950. Back out the destination charge of about $650. Leaves you with $49,300. Take the dealer HOLDBACK of about 4.25% on this number and you get about $2,100. BACK this number out from the wholesale cost (from Edmunds, $45,229) and you get $43,129. TAKE ANOTHER $1,500 from this price and you end up with the NET DEALER COST of about $41,635. If he wants $46,500 he's making about $4,865. Which is about 12% on his money. Cadillac dealers were content with just their holdback money as their profit. Which in this case would mean a quote of about $43,635 (their cost $41,635 + $2000 holdback)But this car is HOT. I bought a new 02' Seville SLS at the end of the 02' season for $37k. Sticker was $48.5K and the reabte was $7K. Times have changed with Cadillac as of late.

sls002 · January 2005

Profits are what the dealer pays taxes on when he files his income tax return. Markup is the difference between what the dealer pays for the car and what he charges the customer.

GM imposes a holdback charge for some reason, which is money that the dealer gets periodically from GM. However, if the dealer owes GM interest charges for new cars sitting on his lot that are not paid for, this is deducted first, I guess.

Anyway, from my point of view (a customer point of view), the invoice price is not the actual dealer cost. The actual cost is the invoice less the holdback.

But a dealer needs to make money on the cars he sells to stay in business. Getting a car at invoice is a pretty good deal in general. Paying list price plus additional dealer profit for useless extras is not a good deal.

volvodan1 · January 2005

Holdback is the manufacturer pays to the dealer to help finance the cars. It generally averages out to a break even situation for the dealer because for every car that is sold in a matter of weeks there are cars that take months or a year to sell.

tetedepierre · January 2005

I drive a CTS Sportlux. A neighbor bought an STS and I was looking at the instrument panel. IMHO it is a poor design compared to the CTS. Tiny buttons and the DIC info is hidden on a little screen to the left of the steering wheel. Could someone on this panel tell me why you would buy an STS rather than a CTS

rayainsw · January 2005

"Could someone on this panel tell me why you would buy an STS rather than a CTS "

Availability of the new Northstar 320 HP with Manumatic 5 speed automatic trans.

- Ray

Wishing for the ability to "cherry pick" options and axle ratio . . .

volvodan1 · January 2005

Also nicer interior. Available "high end" options like AWD, adaptive cruise, & ventilated seats.

jerrymcshane1 · January 2005

And ANOTHER $10-$20 grand too. The STS (V-8)is just a "glorified" CTS on steroids.

sls002 · January 2005

A fully loaded CTS (luxury/sport) will run about $44,000. A luxury V6 STS with premium package (includes wood trim) will run near $45,000. A sunroof will run the STS price up more. I think that the STS offers a more luxurious interior than the CTS at these prices. However, the CTS does get a nav system and the sport package, so the question is what do you want. If one puts together a CTS from the standard package, adding the sport or luxury packages as one sees fit, the CTS price tag can remain under $40,000.

The questions are what you're looking for. With the V8, the price tag rises to the level of the current Deville or the old Seville. Adding more stuff to the V8 runs the price tag to levels that we have not seen at Cadillac since the 1953 Eldorado or perhaps the late 80's Allante. The Allante was more like the current XLR though.

Personally, I am interested in what Buick does with their RWD sedan that should show up in the 2007 model year time frame.

volvodan1 · January 2005

Agreed. Anytime one brands line is looked at many times you could say the step up is "glorified". It's "glorified" if you don't see the value. The STS is larger, evolved design, more luxurious, etc.

The buyer has to see the value. The STS's are selling well for us. Some prefer the CTS and don't/ can't see the value in the STS. That's fine. I remember showing a Volvo S80 and the customer said "I could buy 2 Taurus's for that money." Of course. They both have 4 wheels and get you from point A to point B. That's why there's $15,000 cars and $50,000 cars

jerrymcshane1 · January 2005

What's (volvodan1)'s best "guestimate" as to HOW MUCH an STS costs GM to produce? Say the sticker for a V-8 is $52K. What's your "take" on the TOTAL cost (material, labor, overhead (fixed/variable) on this vehicle? Would love to know the true numbers that GM assigns to the production of the above mentioned vehicle.

bigmike5 · January 2005

I test drove the two last month. Albeit, the CTS was a 6 and not the hot V. None the less, the difference in the two cars was, IMHO, profound. I did the STS first which was probably unfair to the CTS. But the STS V8 was a horse. Body style and dimensions of the two were prety similar, but I found the CTS interior to be fairly stark and not particularly attractive. On balance, to me it was like comparing a thoroughbred triple crown winner to a good quarter horse. Both are good for what they were produced to do, but the STS was just a stunning ride. The one I drove stickered around $58-59K. I wasn't interested in a STS-6 so I did not test drive that one.

sls002 · January 2005

The vvt northstar is available as a crate engine for less than $5,000. The V6 costs something as the base engine, so the V8 STS does not cost $10,000 more to build. The STS is about 6 inches longer and 2 inches wider. The wheelbase is 3 inches longer.

rayainsw · January 2005

http://www.gmpartsdepot.com/store/product1.aspx?SID=2&Product- _ID=1297&Category_ID=63

- Ray

Wonder if this would fit my current 'ride' . . .

[kidding - sort of]

jerrymcshane1 · January 2005

Pretty informative stuff rayainsw. That's a darn good price for such a reliable/powerful engine. Is there a warranty with it? The Ford "crate" V-8's, that run over 400 hp, are in the $14K range. I'm NOT knocking the new STS but my point is that the V-8 version costs way TOO much. This newer Seville "line" is smaller than its predecessor but MORE COSTLY. I think the V-6 STS is a better deal.

sls002 · January 2005

I think it may be instructive to recall that the original Seville (1976?) was a small car but was more expensive than the big Fleetwood Sixty Special.

volvodan1 · January 2005

I don't have a clue what the "cost" is to make an STS. All I know is if it stickers for $52K, we probably own it for $47K - $48K.

The customer that is looking for value will buy the V6. Other than the engine, for $9,000 you buy into the oppurtunity to get options that are only available on the V8, (adaptive cruise, AWD, Tuscany leather, etc.).

That being said, I don't blame Caddy at all for pricing it where they have. Most customers who get the V8 WOULDN'T EVEN CONSIDER a V6.

ME - "Mr. customer, there is also a V6 available for the STS."

CUSTOMER - "A V6 is too small for me. I only buy V8's."

So if the engine is $5,000 of the spread, the prestige of owning the V8 is the other $4,000. : )

sls002 · January 2005

The point is that the V6 probably costs $2000 to $3000. This makes the V8 a cost of $2000 more or less more than the V6. The cost of building an STS is probably not much more than the CTS. There are a lot of expenses involved in developing the sigma platform and putting it into production. The profit margins on the CTS/SRX and STS will have to make it all worthwhile. I think the V8 STS is priced at a reasonable level compared to the competition.

The sigma factory was designed to build 150,000 vehicles per year. With the CTS running close to 60,000 and the SRX about 30,000, there is room for about 60,000 STS's. Pricing the STS much lower would result in more sales demand than there is production capacity.

volvodan1 · January 2005

..I didn't account for the cost of the V6.

sls002 · January 2005

Since the northstar V8 has been in production since 1993, the production line is probably well paid for. The 3.6 liter V6 is a new engine and may actually cost more than the V8. The retail price of a vehicle and the cost of building it are considered only to the extent that the cost of building should be less than the sales price. There should in fact be a significant profit margin.

pat · February 2005

Full Test: 2005 Cadillac STS - enjoy!

jerrymcshane1 · February 2005

Give me $60K and sure I'll enjoy it. But NOT on some stupid car that will be worth $.50 cents on the dollar in a couple of years.

clpurnell · February 2005

I know you guys aren't listed in the title but the STS is definately in the same class. would value your opinions.

clpurnell, "New M35/45 vs Lexus GS vs BMW 5 vs E-class vs A6 vs RL" #, 8 Feb 2005 4:53 pm

rjlaero · February 2005

The STS is a damn nice car, buy Caddy is pigeon-holed into programming the US shopper with big discounts year in and year out.

The car is overpriced, but I'll bet you'll get damn near 10 grand off leftover cars at the end of the year. It happens all the time and Cadillac will never shake this discount stigma mentality.

volvodan1 · February 2005

....it's overpriced compared to what? And as for the "discount stigma", the CTS has been out for over three years and there are no incentives on it. The only incentives for last year were $1,000 end of year cash. We're halfway through the model year and no cash on Escalades. No cash on STS's. The only big cash is on Devilles, which is the last "old" Cadillac.

I guarantee there will not be 10 grande on the hood at the end of the year. They are selling great and there is no need for it.

carnaught · February 2005

I believe there is a $1500 incentive on the CTS now.

volvodan1 · February 2005

0% is all I'm aware of.

rjlaero · February 2005

A top of the line STS AWD V8 is 63K.

You can get an Audi A6 Quattro 4.2 w/ 335 hp that has naviagation, bose, cold weather, 18 inch wheels for 56K. $7,000 is a lot of beans and the Audi interior is best in class.

You also have to pony up 60 grand to get the AWD and can't get it in less expensive versions. I don't like Caddys take it or leave it 8 to $10,000 option packages.

My local dealer here in Raleigh, NC has a slew of unsold 2004 CTS V's w/ the 400 hp engine just sitting on the lot. They're advertising CTS V's in the paper for 7 grand off.

2004 Escalades for $14,000 off sticker.
Up to $10,000 off SRX;s

Don't get me wrong, I like the STS and think it's a damn nice car by Cadillac. But just like every other Caddy product, hugh discounts are going to move cars and that's why they have inflated MSRP's to account for the dicounting and huge rebates that will come year in and year out.

We'll see who's right at the end of the year.

jerrymcshane1 · February 2005

There will NOT be much , if any, in the way of cash incentives on the STS (except maybe on the V-6 model) in the months to come. Why? Cadillac does NOT have to offer them. This is America remember? Where MATERIALISM reigns supreme. When a "hot" new model comes out, the Americans will fall all over themselves with their "gotta have" mindset. I too priced an 04' Escalade when the loyalty campaign was around and SURE they were giving good prices. The current oil prices along with the fact that the new STS is now the FLAGSHIP Cadillac was the reason. The Seville was once the "holder" of that title UNTIL the Escalade replaced it. Now we're back to the car scene again. This TREND stuff is an incredible "force" for sure. NEVER underestimate the STUPIDITY of people when their EGO'S get in the way. Just look at the real estate industry and what these people are paying for their high tech, heated toilet seats, castles. NEVER in America has money, materialism, and more money been so obvious.

sls002 · February 2005

The cash incentives may depend on region. For my zip code, Edmunds indicates that there are cash incentives for the following Cadillac models: CTS & V, Escalade & ESV, and SRX. The Deville shows dealer marketing support.

rayainsw · February 2005

"I don't like Caddys take it or leave it 8 to $10,000 option packages. "

I agree - one of my issues with the STS is the packaging / pricing of options. 1SF and 1SG in particular.

I have posted a few additional details in the context of my test drive this weekend in an M45 Sport. . .

- Ray

Also interested to see what incentives appear at (past) year end on un-sold STS-s . . .

sls002 · February 2005

When the CTS was new, the options were available in "packages" too. Since then, things have changed. I would guess in a couple of years the options packages will change on the STS too.

I expect the six speed automatic that will appear first on the STS_v to become the standard transmission. This will make the axle ratio less of an issue for either performance or fuel economy. With a 4:1 low gear, the 3.23:1 axle ratio would probably be ideal for performance. With an overdrive ratio of 0.67, a 3.23:1 axle ratio would still give good fuel numbers, and 3.08:1 would probably be as high (or low numerically) as you would want. So the 1SF or 1SG packages may fade out.

rayainsw · February 2005

"a Cadillac spokesperson said the first all-wheel-drive V6 STS cars will be 2006 models that will go into production this September or October."

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Articles/articleId=104692

- Ray

Wondering if this is an indication of a larger revamp of the STS option / packaging / pricing policy . . .

rayainsw · February 2005

I also expect that the six speed will eventually find its way into a wider range of STS-s.

2 keys here for me are:

1  When is eventually going to arrive? I expect that this depends to some degree on how this trans. holds up behind the S/C STS-v motor.

2  Will it become standard across all STS models? Or become optional? Stand alone? And / Or as part of the higher level option packages like the 1SF and 1SG?

1A  Another issue bearing on when the STS (non-v) might see this trans. available may be production capacity for the new trans., as they ramp up in Wollow Run  and there still are rumors that the C6 Corvette may receive a high torque capacity version of this trans. for 2006.

If (a very, very large IF at this point in time) the 2006 (perhaps mid-model year  Jan / Feb 2006?) STS V8 1SE were to become available with the six speed and the 3.23 final drive ratio currently only available on the 1SF, I might be more interested  but Id still want the ability to select (& / or de-select) specific options.

Specifically, as things stand right now, the 1SF package includes 2 rather expensive options (NAV and HID-s) that are of no particular interest to me. And Id prefer not to pay something like $3K (best I can estimate at MSRP) for them, in order to receive several items that I would want.

I do appreciate (and am quite willing to pay extra for) options / upgrades like the Magnaride, 6-disk, Moonroof, performance brakes, and LSD.

If I could order a 1SF (six speed) without the NAV and HID-s for an MSRP of something in the mid-$50Ks, this could sway me from the M45 Sport (no options required for me, approx. MSRP = $50K) that I am currently leaning toward. Perhaps.

And Id want the option of adding the Performance Handling (QAF)  currently available ($795) only on the 1SG.

Presuming a deeper O/D for the sixth gear ratio, Id also be more likely to believe the highway EPA rating (26) currently assigned to the 1SF  and perhaps I could more easily deal with the (rather silly, seems to me) 17.5 gallon fuel tank capacity.

And finally (for today) I wonder if the STS will implement some sort of rev match on downshifts algorithm - on the six speed and 5 speed, if it remains. My recent test drive in an M45 suggests that this is a useful addition to the Manumatic functionality.

Well see.

We certainly do live in interesting times  from a high performance hehicle standpoint.

- Ray

Watching and waiting  for now . . .

sls002 · February 2005

I guess you have not kept up with what GM is doing, but six speed automatics are the intent for all FWD as well as RWD cars. I had hoped the FWD's with the 5.3 liter V8's would get the six speed too, but apparently this will not happen quite as fast as that.

The STS_v is to get the first RWD six speed. The gears are: first 4.02:1; second 2.36:1;, third 1.53:1; fourth 1.15:1; fifth 0.85:1, sixth 0.67:1

I think the fuel economy numbers (EPA) are for the base model -> which is the 2.73:1 axle ratio. For whatever reason, the EPA is only concerned with the AWD model otherwise. With the higher performance gears, fuel consumption will be worse. However, as the six speed automatic becomes available, one would expect that the 4:1 low gear would not require the 3.42:1 axle ratio for best performance. With a 3.23:1 axle, the low gear is about 13:1 overall compared to 11.7:1 on the 1SG with the 3.42:1 axle ratio. The top gear ratio is 2.16 with the six speed compared to 2.6:1 with the five speed. The base axle ratio now give about 2.07:1 in overdrive. With a 3.08:1 axle ratio, the six speed would beat that, but the first gear ratio is still 12.4:1, lower than the current 1SG package.

pault1 · February 2005

I am considering trading my 2003 Seville for a new STS V8 RWD and want to know if anyone has any experience with the rear wheel drive on wet or snow covered pavement. I live in NJ. Is this car a hazard on the road compared to the FWD Sevilles? Is FWD better? Thanks everyone.

rjlaero · February 2005

Snow tires will help, but there isn't anything worse than a rear wheel drive car in winter.

That's true for Caddy... and every other car company out there.

pault1 · February 2005

Thanks. But I thought the STS had some features that improved traction including better weight distribution. Will this car slide around on wet roads during the summer?

erickpl · February 2005

pault1,

It might slide around in the summer. It depends on how you drive it and how heavy your right foot is.

Seriously though, as long as you have decent tires and drive properly for conditions, you should be fine. The technologies for traction and stability control really help keep a modern car in its place.

In the winter, it should be fine, but you have to consider the degree of winter you have. Winter in FL - no problem. Winter in Vermont - another story. If you shod your RWD vehicle with good snow tires, like Blizzaks, and realize that after a certain amount of accumulation you won't be driving it anyway, you'll be fine.

If you get 10" of snow, chances are the front bumper will be a snowplow anyway. Stay home and play in the snow!

But for only 2-5" or so, you'd be doing good. You CANNOT drive it like it is dry, that's a given. But prudent driving for the conditions - you'll be fine.

In my opinion, FWD is a bit overrated. I had several FWD vehicles, and didn't find them any better in snow/ice than any of the RWD vehicles I have driven.

All my cars are either 4wd (Jeep Wrangler, Grand Cherokee, and Chevy Avalanche) or AWD (BMW). Not one of them has issues on snow/ice if I use my head before I use my hands and feet.

-Paul

xkss · February 2005

here is a GM press release:

http://media.gm.com/events/autoshows/05naias/brands/cadillac/stsv- %20overview.html

xkss · February 2005

copy the above link and add

"%20overview.html" to

"http://media.gm.com/events/autoshows/05naias/brands/cadillac/sts- v"

orlandogtp · February 2005

I am looking at a V-6 with Luxury Package and Wood package. Sticker is 44,340. I can get the GM "supplier discount" price, which the local dealer quoted me as 41,376 (plus the typical dealer "fees", 400) for a total of 41,776. The dealer quotes invoice of 41,814 so nominally this is essentially invoice before holdback etc.

I know these vehicles are selling well, but am wondering if anyone knows if this is about the best one can do or if I could strike a better deal just by negotiating. Problem is if you have supplier discount you must disclose at first dealer contact, which effectively prevents you from negotiating below that "non-negotiable special price", at least with that dealer. thanks

carnaught · February 2005

Bro.-in-law recently bought a V6 STS which stickers for $50,500 for $47,500 and that's the absolute lowest that dealer would go.

rayainsw · February 2005

February 21 issue of Automotive News:

"DETROIT -- For the first time in its three-year history, General Motors' Lansing Grand River plant will face downtime. GM said late last week that it is idling the plant to trim a backlog of unsold Cadillac CTS and STS sedans and SRX SUVs.

The plant will close for a week starting Feb. 28. As of Feb. 1, Cadillac had a 134-day supply of its CTS, a 138-day supply of the STS and a 129-day supply of the SRX."

- Ray
Who thought the lack of STS-s was due to a lack of production capacity . . .

cadman777 · February 2005

They need a slow down and get their heads together and address the poor quality issues of the STS. I have the STS V6 with performance lux package. After 900 miles the navigation system froze. Took a month to get a replacement. The rattles in the vehicle are just too hard to believe. Check the quality of the trunk liner. Its held on my three pieces of velcro. The pass thru to trunk rattles and the seats creek. I have matchbooks wedged in everywhere to stop the rattles. Maybe I just have a bad vehicle as most are reporting how great this vehicle is.
A vehicle that supposedly is to compete with the premium imports should not rattle. Anybody else
dissapointed or is it just me ???

jerrymcshane1 · February 2005

134-day supply on the CTS? And here Cadillac had us all believing that the CTS model was the new crown Jewel for Cadillac. In that, the YOUNGER crowd were now "frequenting" their showrooms because of this lower priced entry Caddy. Last year Cadillac had one of their BEST years. Looks like all buyers has already done their business and/or the foreign luxury makers have experienced a newfound "surge" in demand, once again, over the U.S. rivals. Isn't 60-65 day the norm in this area? You're talking no less than TWICE that with the CTS/STS. I retract my earlier comments that GM will NOT revisit the cash incentive on Cadillacs. The LOWER production numbers will not solve their over stocked problems. Never has.

acenj · March 2005

I'm not sure who thinks sales are on the STS are strong - i had a dealer tell me yesterday they're waiting on rebates as teh cars aren't moving. I have a hard time believign that sales on this car are strong when most dealers have at least 10 on each lot.

Aceman

sls002 · March 2005

Thus far over 13,000 have been sold. I think sales will match the Seville sales for 2003 without difficulty. Car sales are sluggish, at least for GM, so I don't think the STS will set sales records compared to the old Seville.

acenj · March 2005

I'm not sure matching 2003 seville sales is anything but an insult. The 02's, 03's, and 04's (if they had that year?) were HEAVILY discounted so you would hope that a new design would pump up the sales. Personally, I really like the exterior, think the interior is blah but can live with it so long as it has navigation. I just think the dash w/o navi doesn't make me feel like i'm sitting in a 45K+ car. Now as for the engine, being a prior vett owner, I can't wait to get the v8!!!! GM - GET THOSE REBATES ROLLING!!!!!!!

Aceman

Cadillac STS/STS-V: What's New for 2007?

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