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Comments
Steve, Host
you can read a discussion about interior trim showing through on outside in a review of the Freestar in CarConnection.com (http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=6483). In the review, the reviewer noticed the trim showing through and asked Ford engineers why and got no adequate answer (though it seems to me Ford didn't want to spend the money to fix this design flaw). I see it as a design flaw since i have yet to see any other model car (Ford or any other mfg.) ever have this! To see for yourself, go to a Freestar and from the outside look at the driver's seat area or front passenger area. Clearly, from outside you can see 2 inches of interior trim showing through the glass! I personnally found this to be unattractive and unacceptable for a car i would spend close to $30,000 on and therefore for THAT reason and a few others (60/40 split 3rd row), we bought the Sienna. Maybe a Ford employee on this message board can provide an answer to why Freestar has this.
"We were quite puzzled with an odd Freestar design choice, to which no one had a clear answer for us. When looking at the Freestar from the side, you can see the interior front-door panel sticking a good two inches above the outside doorline. It looks like a glaring mistake, as if the design budget got cut and it had to stay that way, and when we asked we got three different stories from three different people on the project as to why the panel is the way it is, revealing something about the communication within Ford. One said that the door and power window mechanisms wouldn't fit in a lower panel (which seemed unbelievable as the door is so huge!); another said that a decision was made to keep the panel because it gives people more of a feeling of safety (also hard to believe as you look down the gap from the panel to the real window sill!); and yet another said that he doesn't know why and the panel has simply been carried over from the original Windstar, which had a higher door beltline. Would this happen at Honda or Toyota? We don't know, but we don't notice the panels sticking up on those vans, either."
Dashboard was OK. A little too much plastic on the doors. My 96 Explorer at least had vinyl on the doors. But I felt the Windstar was a better layout but what do I know?
Overall it's a nice van but the biggest problem I had with the van was the cost. To get the items you truly need, you had to buy it separately. The cheapest Freestar they had on the lot was $28k. That was for an SE. For that price I can get a loaded Odyssey, sienna LE, Nissan Quest, or MPV. OF course they do have a bunch of Windstars available with big rebates on them.
I'll continue my search later this week with the Quest, Odyssey and T&C.
Are there any Ford loyalty coupons floating around these days?
I'm always curious as to why MV/SUV owners defect and switch styles. Thanks,
Steve, Host
I'm beyond that macho image and the "want" for an SUV. We've had two Explorers (1991 and 1996) that have served us very well. And the funny thing is my wife does hunt and does go off road but she can travel with her father for that. Other then that, we don't do the off -road thing. Snow? I live in the suburbs and I'm not stupid enough to try and drive in 6 inches of snow with any vehicle. Most places cancel school and other functions well before the snow storm ever hits. So a front wheel drive minivan will do just fine for the drivng we do.
My in laws would prefer we buy American (whatever that means). I started with the Freestar since the local dealership had a special going on this weekend. I'm not aware of any loyalty programs through Ford. Not completely sold on the re-design. They've improved the Freestar in some areas (engine, noise, shifting) but I think they also went cheap on some other things (too much plastic esp. on the doors). I thought the Windstar interior was better overall. We also looked (did not test drive) at the Quest which had better seats and some other items that made the Freestar look overpriced. And this was the base Quest we were looking at. But the proof is in the driving which we will do very shortly.
Steve, Host
Today, Ford said they would exchange the van due to the number and level of defects in the paint.
Thanks for your support!
Randy
As for the Freestar, why hasn't Ford been called on the carpet for obviously false and/or deceptive advertising? The Freestar is a regurgitated Windstar. The door panels don't line up because one is old and the other is a carryover. The van is an improvement over the Windstar, but you can only fix up an 20 year old pushrod V-6 so much, same goes for the tranny and rear suspension. They just don't come close to the competition. Once Chrysler puts the folding middle and rear seats in the new 2005 in January, GM finally comes out with their redesign next year, not to mention the 2005 Odyssey redesign, the Freestar will still be an improved vehicle but will badly trail the pack. If you buy one, better plan to keep it for many years, because the resale may be even worse than the Windstar. As Ford ups the rebates to try and sell the new ones, it will depress the resale value even more. Sorry to see an effort like this by Ford. If the "All new F-150" was as lame as the Freestar, heads would roll in Dearborn. Of course when you look at Ford's stock price, why haven't they rolled already? The Freestar certainly won't help the bottom line.
P.S. I'm 6-1 and the Odyssey has plenty of front seat room. I'm puzzled by the post that says it cramps taller passengers.
I agree that the Honda has a better resale value, but what value does comfort have? The Honda lacked some features that we wanted, like driver's door keypad and the roof canopy airbag. Honda was also a bit more restrictive on the configuration. I agree that Ford does not hold the value for bi-annual trend setters, but we kept my wife's 96 Windstar for 82k miles and 8 years, only replacing a catalytic convertor in those miles. By the way, that was under warranty.
Good luck on your hunt!
Randy
I'm a little over six feet tall and quite long of leg and have never had the problem of having too little leg room in my brother-in-law's Odyssey. In fact, I bet I could not reach the pedals if the seat were moved all the way back.
Hey, if the van fits you, great! Next time, we will try another dealer.
1): Value/affordable.
2): Long-term reliabilty.
3): Performance.
4): Convenience, comfortable.
With the similar equipments, Freestar has higher MSRP than Honda, and Toyota's van. We can see what the sale volume world be.
I just get to see lots of new vans..
Randy
Yes, The Windstar may MSRP for more than the Odyssey, but noone should pay within $5-7K of MSRP on a Windstar (Freestar). You can get the similarly equipped Freestar for less than the Odyssey or Sienna, but my experince is that you will lose much more in resale and to some extent, quality.
My 2002 Windstar has 30K miles and has been just fine - routine maintenance only. It's a little noisier and not as refined as the Odyssey was, but interestingly, we have been more comfortable in the Ford than we were in the Honda. My company Freestar SE arrives at the end of December. Looking forward to the flat folding third seat. I've seen it and it looks and operates just great.
Here is something that might work for you. Try ignoring the trim level and pick the options, one-by-one. Put the options in the order that they are important. Then look at the option matrix and see what unit meets the majority of your needs and then add on. For us, it was 4.2 liter engine, power sliding side doors, and safety canopy. Since we have 3 kids, we needed bucket seats in the second row, for easy 3rd row access. That pointed us the the SEL. We didn't want leather, so we stayed away from the Limited.
If you want your trim options narrowed and you are looking at the higher end, try Mercury Monterey. I looked at one today and out of the box, it is nicer than Freestar.
Good luck,
Randy
I hope Ford has a lot of money for the rebates on this vehicle.
Ford should have went to a simpler pricing plan. Put more bang for the buck in the individual models and offer fewer options. Much simpler for the consumer and dealer. Plus I bet it would make assembly at the factory much easier and lead to better reliability and fit and finish. And they need to get rid of that car expert as their spokesman. I'm not sure how convincing he is.
To make a comparison, if you let the Freestar models range from 1 to 5, (5 being best), the Mercury Monterey ranges from 4 - 5 1/2. Mercury's lowest line (Convenience) is about the same as Freestar SE. Monterey Luxury is the same as high end Freestar SEL and Mercury Premium is a bit over Freestar Limited, (no front sensing on the Freestar).
If you have read my previous posts regarding Freestar and the problems we had with our SEL and the crummmy paint, we got the letter from Ford authorizing the exchange of the van. We have done a bunch of looking and we have found that the Monterey is a better package for us. We are trying to make the "hostage swap" soon.
Good luck,
Randy
I think the Freestar rebates will reach $3500 before March. Nothing ground breaking with this vehicle and they will have a tough time convincing people that this is not just an upgraded Windstar.
trainboy: Spending a minimum of $30k on a minivan with 2 young children is not an option which is why I thought the Freestar would be the best choice of the two. Pretty much we have one main requirements: 2nd row bucket seats. Everything else is negotiable.
The Freestar is positioned as the price leader, and will usually have various trim levels, to satisfy the majority of consumer's. The very base level one will serve businesses that maybe do NOT need fleet variety, but for personal business owner's that just need the plain basics. Then the Limited addresses those who want everything. For those who wants everything, with a touch of luxury, have the Monterey.
As stated be someone earlier, you pick the equipment that suits you best, and compare them in the various price levels. You have versatility with options, something that isn't too often found on other brands. Honda for example, on their sedans... Have LX-V6, and EX-V6, if you want a sunroof, you must jump onto EX, BUT it has leather which some people might not like (like myself), so I've always found their method a bit annoying.
This is mainly kept to reduce complexity upon the build, overall lowering costs overall. And majority of the time people will upgrade to the higher trim, to receive something they really want. It's typical human aspirations to do so. Ford will have much more leverage in their packages, and from 10 years ago levels, I would say it's much more simplified now, than it was back then.
You can work this to your advantage. Awhile back I accompanied a friend on buying an Explorer. I gave the guy the list of what he wanted, in the color he wanted, and the price I wanted, and didn't give in. Seeing the computer in front of my face, they went thru the inventory lists of every such Explorer in the tri-county area. IN other words, IT DID NOT exsist with the options needed. SO the salesperson knowing that when I bring someone is, it's because they are VERY serious...
So he got the closest match my list and the only difference was it had Side Airbags (that my friend did NOT care for one way or another), and yet gave it to us at the price I initially wrote down. So in other words, they thru in Side Airbags and still got the rock bottom price I was looking for.
TIP: The only time THIS idea might backfire, is on certain incentives which have a.... " * Applies to vehicles found only on the dealer's lot" Therefore, you must pick something WITHIN that lot to qualify for certain incentives. But in my friends case, that wasn't the case.
In checking the Ford website, you can add buckets to the SE model which is next to lowest cost if it is that necessary. This last weekend, the rebates were $2500 in Calif on the Freestar, which could get you out in the upper mid $20's, provided you didn't go on an option binge. If you don't need the safety canopy airbag, then look for an '03 Windstar and save even more.
Good luck,
Randy
I just purchased an '02 Chry Town & Country Limited -- loaded with everything but AWD, with 15K on the odo, and paid $20k and change to a dealer. Found the original bill of sale from the first owner taped inside the manual -- he paid $36k.
The perceived quality gap between the Americans and the Japanese brands works in the favor of one looking for used. I shopped the Sienna, and dealers were getting $25k for ones with much less equipment than in the T&C I ended up buying.
Letters to the Editors
Steve, Host
By far, the Sienna had THE WORST packages. Mostly costing over $3000K to get an item or 2, that wasn't available in a simpler model. OR requiring you to upgrade to a certain package, to be able to select. THEN try to find that in a dealership, and good luck. When all was said and done, it came out to $33K, oh and with hardly any discount. The only "discount" was that the guy is a friend of mine, and can work magic.
The Oddysey is much more simpler, but my friend wanted some toys of the EX NOT available on the LX, but dislikes items that they push on you, on the EX. Hence, they want to upsell you.
I believe the Freestar was a situation where she was able to get a midline model, add 3 common options, and that was about it. Now if you compare it to the Windstar of 7 years ago, I can tell you it's simpler now. I remember back then you didn't have all these trim levels, I believe it started out with 2, then grew as the years passed.
For reference sake, we ended up at Mercury, looking into the Monterey, and she fell in love with the Mountaineer instead. Scary part, she WILL drive it as the vehicle is intended for, and so far she's hit 2 shopping karts out of the way, jumped a few concrete medians when traffic backed up, 1 garbage can that had rolled onto the street, crossed a grassy mudd filled turnpike median when traffic backed up, and made her own exit.
Overall, she's having MUCH more fun with this vehicle, whereas before she saw herself buying a minivan for the "oh but I have kids, so it's expected" excuse.
comission off a new Civic. Around $400 for a new Accord. Used? Sky's the limit. He averages around $600 comission on used cars, and made as much as $1000 on a few loaded used SUVs. Shocking when you first think about it, but it makes sense when you consider manufacturing costs and stuff.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20031202.wford- 021/BNStory/Business/
Toyota can't build the Sienna fast enough, because it doesn't have the capacity to do so, whereas Ford does.
Ford isn't laying off worker's for this, when unit allocations get trimmed, they stop the factory (or remove shifts) and called temporary layoff... if worker's do not need to come into work, they are paid 96% of their usual wages (union contract). Unlike what "layoff" is in other business, which might mean a pink slip....
Unfortunately for Ford, they had promised a 3rd shift for that same auto plant under the last round of union negotiations, and if the need isn't there, they end up paying these worker's for it anyways.
Another reason I'm not fond of unions.... (rolling eyes)
So far it's too early to tell how sales are going, and I don't expect them to be astronomical in any sense either. There will be much less fleet sales involved with this new redesign.
Let's not forget (as I've followed up in the Aviator forum)... When a media report stated the Aviator was not selling well, and was going to be cancelled because of it...2 months after it's introduction. And later it was dismissed by Ford stating they had no plans to cancel the vehicle, and I've followed up with sales numbers each months to show sales met the initial forecast Ford had predicted.
Therefore let's give it sometime till the fat lady sings... Then when she does, she might be waving a rebate check next to her white flag. :-)
Awwww, thanks. But actually I have some major beef with Ford, BUT it pertains to other issues. In fact, I personally wouldn't do a Freestar, and would choose another vehicle as I've mentioned in other posts.
But I try to be fair about how I deal with likes/dislikes and I try to present another view/thought (even if deep down inside, I'll agree with the original thought), just so someone sees/understands the situation.
And sometimes trying to line up the facts, and contribute information that might help other's. Too quickly most are critical to downgrade domestic products because of their personal biasness.
I myself (as stated earlier) would have prefered this Freestar program to take another venue, different drivetrain/platforms/etc. BUT there's numerous other factor's involved and I'm barely scratching the surface of what I would do.
In fact, if there was a "What would I do with Ford" Thread, It would cover at least 300 pages worth. But in reality, at least for my needs, there's never a 100% perfect fit vehicle out there for myself, or for someone else. And as human beings, we usually aspire for more, and much better.
As an owner at various times of the Nissan Quest, Honda Odyssey and a Windstar, and living next door to someone whose 2004 Sienna blew it's transmisson at 2,500 miles, I think all these vans have their pros and cons.
I grew up and still live in a big GM factory town. It saddens me and everyone else to watch the factory turn out obsolete Cavaliers day after day (Current rebate $4000). Until they decide to introduce every new vehicle as the class leader -which they are very capable of doing, things will only get worse.
I have to agree with vulawgrad that there is not much innovation in this vehicle. Sales will pick up once Ford puts he $3k and $4k rebates on this vehicle so it is priced where it belongs, mid $20s as opposed to low $30s. Sort of reminds me of the 1995 Windstar re-design when Ford decided against putting a second sliding door on the driver's side. They would have been the first minivan with this feature. They didn't think people wanted this feature.
(I'm not calling this a defect(yet) but my message center is not monitoring my oil system. My dealer is aware of this and checking with Ford. It may be simply enabling it. Would anyone out there no what the problem might be)
Since then the factory suggested they replace the instrument cluster, which the message center is a part of. That was done, to no avail, it didn't correct it.
To day I hear that what was printed in the owners manual was in error. my answer to that was, That wasn't except able as it was part of my 2000 Windstar and besides, I feel it's the most important function of the monitering center.
Can I have some input as to my problem