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Ford Freestar/Mercury Monterey

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Comments

  • vulawgradvulawgrad Member Posts: 13
    I find the discussion about buying an "american" car to be silly. First- isn't the Freestar made in Canada? (no offense to Canadian friends!) I hope all of you who are worried about buying Toyotas/Hondas b/c Japanese corporations are making money also buy all your products from American companies who hired American workers. If you do, tell me where you shop b/c I find it almost impossible to find products made in the USA or even products made by American corporations anymore! The USA has become a service industry! From furniture to computers to toilet paper, almost nothing is made in the USA anymore. Hopefully you never shop at Walmart, Target, Sears, etc where almost every product was made in China or made by China for a foreign corp. I bought a Toyota Sienna b/c it was (to me) the best minivan on the market for the money and after 4 months owning it i am satisfied. I was appeased that American autoworkers built the car. I'm happier that middle income auto workers got paid (rather than having to work at the Home Depot) and i don't worry about who ultimately gets the profits. The day American corporations start caring about us average citizens instead of polluting the environment, sending more and more jobs oversees, avoiding taxes, building cheap products etc is the day i worry about an American corp getting my hard earned money!
  • gearjammer62gearjammer62 Member Posts: 108
    vulawgrad wrote: "and i don't worry about who ultimately gets the profits."

    You fail to understand that where the auto profit goes, so goes the tax revenue.

    The more money going to the Japanese gov't in the form of taxes, the less is going to the US gov't and the less revenue is available for your fight against pollution.

    Also, companies don't avoid paying taxes by moving jobs and manufacturing overseas. They are taxed on the profits based on where the company is legally chartered. IBM builds computers in China, but pays US taxes on it's total corporate profit, including revenue earned on those products manufactured overseas.

    Finally, I doubt that the only alternative for the people who asembled your Sienna would have been to work at Home Depot. If one is able to work on an assembly line building a vehicle to the high standards that Toyota requires, they are likely able to do many other jobs to the extent that their skill, ambition and desire will allow them.

    It's faulty logic to assume the best an auto worker could do elsewhere is a minimum wage job! But it sounds like you did your part to prevent them from such a dire fate.

    I'm glad you're happy with your Sienna. And so is the government of Japan.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    They are taxed on the profits based on where the company is legally chartered.

    I don't know much about tax, but would explain why lots of US companies reincorporate offshore. I remember that Stanley Tool was going to move their HQ to the Bahamas until they backed down in face of public outcry.

    Citizen Works

    Interesting stuff, but not especially on-topic. Please take it to Toyota to pass Ford and become #2 in global sales or somewhere else in News & Views.

    Let's get back to the new Freestar in here please.

    Steve, Host
  • spartanmannspartanmann Member Posts: 197
    Ant - You must be totally aghast at the millions in interest paid by Ford on their corporate debt to bondholders in Japan. Apparently it's OK for the Ford family to enrich those darn foreigners, but somehow its unpatriotic to buy a virtually completely designed, sourced, built and serviced in America "foreign car". I quit worrying about whether or not the Ford family was being enriched after I took delivery of my new 1997 "American Ford Escort" that of course was built in Mexico.
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    Yep the Escort was built in Mexico, just like there's one plant producing the Focus there now... Although that will all get allocated to Wayne Michigan, so the Futura is assembled there.

    I personally don't care if a vehicle is made in Mars, but as Gearjammer stated: "The more money going to the Japanese gov't in the form of taxes, the less is going to the US gov't and the less revenue is available for your fight against pollution."

    The reason the BIG3 have had to build assembly plants outside of the U.S., simply... UNION. Unions were great decades ago to protect worker's from bad work environment. But times have changed, and it's purpose is pointless, time to move on...

    Then we have foreign automaker's building plants on the U.S., not having to deal with unions (read: more porfittable), and in the case of Japanese automaker's, their government purposely devalues their YEN to make them more profittable over american trades. (Something that has been discussed in the last WTO meetings since it's not fair)
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Ok, enough, let's get back to the Freestar. That other stuff belongs over in News and Views.

    Steve, Host
  • artgpoartgpo Member Posts: 483
    Read the new issue of Consumer Reports. They have included an update on the Freestar and it is very unfavorable.
  • cartagramcartagram Member Posts: 115
    Would that update be in the new March issue? I've got February but didn't see anything Freestar-related.

    Or, can you summarize their evaluation?
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    Consumer Report saying anything favorable towards american manufactured vehicles?

    That's not surprising to say the least :-)
  • artgpoartgpo Member Posts: 483
    Actually this issue is about large SUVs. The Cadillac SRX is the top rated SUV reviewed for this issue OVER the Lexus 470, Nissan Titan and Dodge Durango. The top rated mid-size car when tested is the 2004 Chevy Malibu. Have you read CR lately?
  • cartagramcartagram Member Posts: 115
    The value of Consumer Reports is that they more-or-less objectively test important aspects of a vehicle. If they run a Freestar over the same course as a Sienna, and measure decibels, it gives a good measure of noise levels.

    Of course, you have to trust CR to get several things correct. For example, did they make sure the compared vehicles have the same tire pressure, a roofrack, etc., prior to running the test?

    And you have to make sure that the test is fair and is fairly representative of how people typically use the compared products. A couple years ago, they critiqued the lack of a floppy drive on an iMac. Objectively true--but not representative of the way most iMac users worked and worked around getting files from one computer to another.

    Bottom line is that CR gives you some objectively measured data. You have to decide if their opinion is based on the data, or whether you care about basing decisions on their data and conclusions.
  • gearjammer62gearjammer62 Member Posts: 108
    While not glowing, the CR article was not that negative.

    Here's what their ratings were:

    Acceleration - very good
    Transmission - very good
    Routine Handling - very good
    Emergency Handling - good
    Braking - very good
    Headlights - good
    Ride - good
    Noise - good
    Driving position - very good
    Front seat comfort - good
    Rear seat comfort - good
    Third-seat comfort- poor
    Access - excellent
    Controls and displays - very good
    Interior fit and finish - good
    Cargo area - good
    Crash tests:

    IIHS offset - good
    NHTSA front - driver & passenger - Excellent

    In the narrative they said it wasn't up to the standards of the Sienna or Odyssey, but that shouldn't come as a shock to anyone. The main complaints were typical CR comments against American cars -sub-par fit and finish, ride and handling, harsh sounding engines. CR seems to say that about every American car they test.

    But there were many positive comments, such as " Overall handling is sound, with restrained body lean in corners, and responsive steering... Emergency handling was secure... The optional 4.2 liter provides good performance...the four speed automatic shifts smoothly, but isn't as refined as the class leaders. Braking distances were very good on dry pavement and just a bit longer on wet....most controls are easy to to operate...the cabin has plenty of storage space..."

    Most of the complaints seemed to be nit-picking, with the overall theme being - it's not as good as the Japanese vans. Can't remember the last time CR ever said a US car was...
  • drwilscdrwilsc Member Posts: 140
    I found it interesting to compare the CR report on the Freestar with their last report on minivans (October, 2003).

    Odyssey 0-60 8.4 sec
            18 mpg
    Sienna 0-60 8.8 sec
            21 mpg
    Freestar 0-60 9.2 sec
            17 mpg

    As you can see, the large pushrod engine in the Freestar offers no advantage over the smaller, more sophisticated Honda and Toyota engines
    Also, note that the above are hard core numbers, not CR's nor anyone else's 'opinion'
  • samnoesamnoe Member Posts: 731
    The problem with CR’s ratings is, that by (most)domestic models they point out the bad parts much more than the good parts. They usually “forget” to mention some good points, the same points which they are very happy to report when Honda or Toyota has them.

    I have many examples, and I even mailed a letter for CR to show them.

    Now let’s go trough the report, step by step…

    “Overall, the Freestar doesn’t compete well with the best minivans, such as the Toyota Sienna & Honda Odyssey..."

    “The engine is noisy and the interior fit & finish are not up to that of the better models...”

    Of course, they did not forget to mention: “The Windstar’s reliability has been subpar since its introduction in 1994”.

    “The Freestar has an unsettled ride, though bumps are reasonably well-absorbed”... (BTW, who ever drove a Windstar or Freestar know that this is not true: It has a smooth ride, but bumps and potholes are very sharp and upsetting sometimes).

    “Road noise is audible on must surfaces”.

    They do not mention that the Freestar is a big step-up from the Windstar, with much more modern controls, and better materials, they just let you know that it’s still not up to Toyota’s level of quality. They forget to add that the new Freestar is much quieter than Windstar.

    “The 4-speed automatic shifts smoothly but isn’t as refined as that of the class leaders”. (Who cares....? if it’s smooth, who needs “refined”? I don’t even know what that means... it’s smooth, and that’s all I need!)

    “Adjustable pedals make it easy to find a comfortable driving position, but the steering wheel adjusts ONLY for height...” Let me ask you: Which minivan, except for Toyota’s Sienna, has telescoping steering wheel? Most minivans have neither the telescoping steering wheel nor the adjustable pedals. Instead to give credit for Ford for the pedals, they left you with a bitter taste in the mouth: “but the steering wheel adjusts ONLY for height.”

    Of course they also “forget” to mention that the Freestar have ALL controls lighted at night, power controls for the windows & door locks, cruise controls, and more. If Nissan would have it, they would say, “it’s a nice touch, everything is illuminated”...

    “Rear head restraints are too low when fully down to adequately protect from whiplash...”, but here too, they don’t tell us that it’s for a reason: You could fold the seat straight in the floor without removing the headrests.

    And what about the excellent crash-test results? Like it was non-existence.

    My point is: You can see if CR likes that car or not. Everything they wrote IS TRUE. But when they like something, they're talking so positive, and almost no bad points. But in case they do not like it, it seems like the current article.

    Sorry about the long message. And please, let’s not start a new conversation about CR’s reports, we have had enough of that already.
  • gearjammer62gearjammer62 Member Posts: 108
    "Hard core" numbers? They are the test result numbers CR achieved, and they are different than the numbers I have seen in Car & Driver, Motor Trend, and even here on Edmund's, on the same vehicles. So, who has the real "hard core" numbers? Certainly NOT just CR.

    Also, the Sienna requires premium unleaded gas to achieve the numbers CR cited. While there is an overall mpg advantage on the Sienna, "real world" mpg always differs from what the EPA states, or even what a car mag review reports over the course of a one-week test. Maybe the Sienna will get 21, 25 or 17 average mpg, depending on the driver.

    So, while the Sienna achieves a whopping 4 tenths-of-a-second acceleration advantage over the Freestar, whether or not it's worth buying premium gas for that paltry of an advantage is questionable.

    If you look at the whole picture, not just performance, but economics, there certainly may be an advantage to the old Ford pushrod.

    I doubt the average driver would notice a .4-second acceleration difference in daily driving. But they will certainly notice paying for premium unleaded gas at the pump every week.
  • spartanmannspartanmann Member Posts: 197
    Is this the same Consumers Reports that has the Ford Focus rated first? So much for bias. The CR tests are very straightforward and there's no arguing if a car is noiser and rides worse than another one. Test drive the Freestar and Sienna to compare if you don't believe. Where CR goes wrong is they throw in "projected long term reliability" into their recommendations. There are many times one car has tested better overall but has not been recommended because of reliability projections. That why Toyota and Honda get recommended more than they should as CR always assumes that their reliability will be tops. Of course domestics could benefit from this assumption if they bothered to design the same reliability in over the years. When you read a CR review, stop at the end of test and ignore the recommendations. You'll get a very fair description of the comparative advantages of the vehicles. As for the acceleration numbers being different from other tests, obviously they would be as temperature, wind, road grip are different for each test. The relative differences in numbers are roughly the same regardless of who tests these vehicles. It should not surprise anyone that a 20 year old pushrod engine is going to be less powerful and fuel efficient than a modern engine design.
  • cartagramcartagram Member Posts: 115
    The reason that CR doesn't compare the new Freestar with the old Windstar is that the article is aimed to the greater readership that will be shopping for a minivan from among several brands--not for the smaller readership of former Windstar owners looking to upgrade.
  • laundryguylaundryguy Member Posts: 89
    Folks,

    The Freestar is a definite improvement in many areas over the Windstar as many of the previous posts support. Consumer Reports may be rightfully tagging Freestar with Windstar reliability issues if the components in question were not upgraded. Many of them were addressed. Several were not, and they went backwards in other areas.

    Things that are true pluses on this vehicle:
    a) 26 gallon gas tank - this is huge for the average minivan owner who drives 12,000+ miles a year. You will stop at the gas station every 9 - 10 days rather than every 7 or so days with a 20 gallon version (like Quest). Basically 21 - 22 usable gallons (or 440 miles a tank at 20 mpg) assuming you fill it up as it nears empty or the add gas light comes on.
    b) Flip 3rd row seat will help it compete against foreign competition. Pulling a rear third seat out is asking for a trip to the chiropractor as most are awkward to carry and weight 120+ lbs.

    A few negatives
    1)3rd row legroom. Unfortunately, they stole space from the 2nd and 3rd row legroom to get the flip seat it in and unless you have toddlers or very young school age children in the 3rd row, it will be deemed intolerable for long trips. This is a show stopper for anyone with big kids who will be using the 3rd row. 2nd row legroom not much better, but instead of being 8 to 10 inches less than competition it is only 2 to 3 inches. Feels like a short wheel base van now compared to what is out there.
    2) No side curtain air bag standard. Standard on all the competition for same base price.
    3) No CD player in the base model. Come on Ford guys - cassettes are dead - everyone has CD's these days. The only question should be is a single player CD on the base model or a multi-disc capable model. Competition offers CD in base model for same or lower price.
    4) Not a lot of flexibility in those 2nd row seats in the base model compared to the foreign competition out there.
    5) Needs to upgrade towing capability to 3500 lbs pronto - still just 2000 lbs - although talk of 3500 lbs sometime around April. Hopefully, when available (and maybe that explains the delay), the base engine will have sufficient oil and tranny cooling capability so tow package is no more than wiring and a hitch, which most of the competition has moved up to. Even for those who don't tow boats or other toys, this should give you peace of mind that the tranny and engine are overdesigned.
    6) Base model allow for captains chairs option rather than making you step up a trim grade.
    7) Base model should have reading lights standard in both second and third row seats. Competition does for same price.
    8) Base model should have cruise control standard - competitive models do.
    9) Illuminated vanity mirrors should be standard in base model. Competition does for same price.

    These are the ones right off the top of my head. If rebates get to $4000, than SES trim level may be able to compete against competition. S and SE just seem to be missing too many of the "basics" that now exist in minivans.
  • vulawgradvulawgrad Member Posts: 13
    CRs fuel estimate (and EPA estimates) are usually accurate on the gas mileage (usually minus a mile). This is true for all cars so no advantages to any particular brand when you compare! In comparing freestar to other cars- it is cheaper to put in midgrade or premium fuel in your car and get 5-6 mpg extra! I use midgrade fuel and get 21.5 mpg on Sienna. No advantage to Freestar there.
  • samnoesamnoe Member Posts: 731
    Most of the things I'm with you, but a few exceptions:

    1) Toyota Sienna CE (base model) does NOT offer cruise control standard, and no lighted vanity mirrors.

    2) Cassettes is NOT dead. At least for me. I still have 100's of recordings on cassettes which I don't have the time to convert for CD's. But I agree that a CD player should be standard. But I don't like those cars which does not offer cassette at all - no option! Just 6-CD changer. I like Toyota b/c they always offer both, 6-CD + cassette option.

    3) Reading lights is a good point, I've even contacted Ford for that before they released the Freestar. All competitions gives you reading lights for all seats. This is not luxury, but important and very useful.

    4) Captain chairs is OK, but I also like it the other way, give me an option to take a bench even on the SEL. I love bench seats for many reasons, mainly b/c the room I gain to put in another suitcase in between the seat & door.
  • muskyman1muskyman1 Member Posts: 1
    I read the report from CR also and after reading it I wondered if I owned the same car they reviewed. I have the Limited with the 4.2. Most of my driving is city/rural not freeway. The worst milage I got was 19.3 mpg, the best 21.6. I have filled my tank 11 times. I had traded my 1999 Windstar SE. Freestar is great!!
  • bewhite25bewhite25 Member Posts: 35
    I am a die-hard fan of the Ford Motor Company and I think that they have been doing some great things lately, with new vehicles like the 2004 F-150 and the upcoming 2005 Five Hundred. However, I'm a little disappointed with the Freestar. Don't get me wrong because it looks like a very good vehicle and is definitely an improvement over the previous Windstar, but I think it's still not up to par with the competition. What really upset me about this the most is how Ford "pulled a GM" in designing the powertrain. Instead of coming up with a new sophisticated overhead cam engine and 5 or 6 sp. auto tranny, it simply pulled two pushrod engines out of the parts bin and matted them to an outdated 4 sp. auto. Although some of you are upset with how CR seems to overpraise Honda and Toyota, they do offer smooth DOHC engines and 5 sp. transmissions. Ford didn't even meet the competiion. It still fell behind. In fact, I think the only other places you can find OHV engines in the Ford lineup is the 3.0L's used as base engines in the Taurus, Sable, and Ranger, the soon-to-be replaced 3.8L base engine in the Mustang, and of course the 6.0L Powerstroke, but that is also a diesel. I think if Ford wanted to take the minivan market seriously, it would've come up with something more impressive in this regard. I suppose there is a good chance that when the Duratec 35 comes out it will be put in the Freestar, but couldn't Ford have put in the SOHC 4.0L and 5 sp. auto from the Explorer until then? Also, the exterior styling isn't that attractive. In my opinion, the front end is chunky and doesn't have a smooth, modern look to it. And although it might not be a widely chosen option, I believe that AWD definitely should've been offered. Ford should have thought of this from the start when designing the platform for the Freestar. I live in the Midwest and if for some reason I would buy a minivan, I definitely would want AWD.
        Ford is a great company and can make great vehicles. The Freestar is a comfortable family hauler, but I don't think it has the refinement or innovation to dethrone the competition.
  • laundryguylaundryguy Member Posts: 89
    Like a post above - I was (sometimes I think/wish) a die hard Ford guy. I had an 1989 Escort and a 1995 Ford Windstar. Dad had a 1991 Aerostar and a 1997 Ford Tempo. But (3) out of those (4), the Escort, Windstar, and Tempo, gave us lots reliability problems. The Aerostar is hard to grade since the engine block cracked in half just a few hundred miles before warranty was up (75,000 miles) and Dad got a new engine for free which gave it new life to 150k. If discovered 1000 miles later we would have been 0 for 4 in cars from Ford in the 1990's.

    But I was still crazy enough to still take a look at the Freestar because of the mega rebate for intense suffering/pain/agony suffered with the Windstar.

    Gotta agree that a CD/Cassette combo offers much more utility for us old folks from the 80's. I got 200 hundred cassettes too and at least they can be played in a car (unlike the old vinyl). Didn't check competition thoroughly for combo CD/cassette, but not a show stopper to me.

    Regarding cruise control standard on the base, I was referring to Nissan Quest, which also has standard lighted vanity mirrors and lights in all the rows. I like the Sienna as well, but the missing cruise control seemed like a short coming on the base model and you pay full MSRP, which you may recover if you trade and don't drive into ground.

    Really liked the Quest and its test drive, but can't find a way to buy one with the reliability issues of undersized heater/fan, radios that break relentless with no apparent short term fix, and door closing issues (which wouldn't open at test drive in 4F cold). Going to wait it out and see if something better shows up in the fall or if Nissan can get their act together on these few issues. Really like a few Freestar features, but they could have done so much more knowing where the competition was and where they are going.
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    " I suppose there is a good chance that when the Duratec 35 comes out it will be put in the Freestar, but couldn't Ford have put in the SOHC 4.0L and 5 sp. auto from the Explorer until then?"

    Not really, the next Ford family of minivan will be riding on a new Mazda6 derived platform. It will be a totally different vehicle as we know it. And yes it'll have the Duratec 35.

    The 4.0L SOHC couldn't be placed into the Freestar because that's a RWD specific engine/tranny combo. Much more money would have needed to be invested to make it FWD, let alone, the structure is Taurus derived and that would have required quite a bit of firewall modification to make that combination fit.

    " I believe that AWD definitely should've been offered"

    The Freestar/Windstar are Taurus platform derived, they do not have the capability for AWD.
  • samnoesamnoe Member Posts: 731
    You must start to realize, once for all, the story of the Freestar:

    The Freestar isn't an "All-New" model, as Ford claimed. As we all know, it's an updated Windstar. Since Toyota came out with the new Sienna, and Nissan with the Quest, Ford understood that the Freestar will no longer play a big role in minivan sales, and there is "something" they gotta do about it, and in a rush! before it's too late.

    So they revised the Windstar, they tried hard to improve everything possible in a hurry, especially interior quality, improve some reliability issues of the old engine/tranny problems, make it quieter, stiffer frame, and fold-flat rear seat. They hoped, at least it should be better than the Windstar, so it will be a bit more competitive.

    However, a new engine, transmission, AWD, and some other stuff was impossible in such a short time. Of course they now want to release the new minivan on the Mazda6 platform, but, as you see, this will take them several years. It will also take them many years to come up with the new Duratec engine, as well.

    So if you like the Freestar, you should know Ford did (almost) the best they could in the Freestar, and would they have more time & money, they probably would give you some more.
  • spartanmannspartanmann Member Posts: 197
    Very true - I think Ford would have been better off to keep the Windstar name and simply introduce it as the improved version that it is. To call it "All New" and give it a new name without following through doesn't seem productive. Buyers are going to research the van anyway and aren't going to be fooled. In a few years they apparently will have an "All New" van, but will buyers bother to research it again or just assume its another updated Windstar?
  • bewhite25bewhite25 Member Posts: 35
    Thanks for clearing that up. I have to say that I too don't see why a whole new name was thought up for an updated model, especially when the name "Windstar" at least had recognition as being a safe vehicle. Well I guess it really doesn't matter to me either way since I would never buy a minivan.
  • keeblerdaxkeeblerdax Member Posts: 2
    Hi everyone!
    Does anyone know how to find out about the $4000 rebate to previous Windstar owners. Can it be combined with the finance options?
    Thanks!
  • cartagramcartagram Member Posts: 115
    I, too, am interested in hearing what is being presented to former Windstarians. My local dealer in Huntsville, AL, said that the "Windstar rebate" was for people coming off a lease.

    Otherwise, he said, there was the standard $3000 rebate plue $1000 of "dealer cash" as an incentive.

    Not sure if the dealer cash is simply a sales pitch that simply means they'll agree to take $1000 off MSRP for you if you beg and cry loud enough.
  • samnoesamnoe Member Posts: 731
    One more word about the cassettes: It has a big advantage over all other media types:

    You can buy a media converter (or whatever it's called) at many stores (radio shack, walmart) for less than 20 bucks, that is a cassette which you put in your cassette player, and has a headphone plug to plug in any headphones jack, and plays the media on the cassette player.

    If I'm not clear enough, let me give you an example; You have your CD player, MP3 player, or you want to watch a movie on your portable DVD player, or use your laptop to watch a movie, etc. you take that cassette, and plug the other end into the headphones jack, and now you hear everything on the speakers of your car, or cassette player at home!

    My friend did it several times, and it's a good thing if you don't want to install an aftermarket DVD in your car. If your car is equipped with a cassette player, you can connect every media which have a headphone jack. My friend used a laptop to watch DVD's, and everything was amazing. Good view from a 15" monitor, and beautiful sound from the cars speakers.

    that's one more reason why every car should stay with a cassette player.
  • klauscklausc Member Posts: 6
    I just test drove the new Freestar and was not impressed. There is plenty of torque to get moving and the 4 speed was OK, but it didn't feel any different than the Windstar.
    There are no reading lights which means my daughter will still resort to a flashlight; The seat cushions are too short to support my long legs; There is too much plastic for a list price over $36,000 (limited); No light in the glove box; Where are the fog lights that work in the fog; Why doesn't the rear seat fold flush into the floor; Head restraints need to fit flush into the seatback when not in use so we can see out the rear window; Why isn't there a trash bin for the second/third rows; Why are ashtrays and lighters optional?
    It seems the Ford design team has been taken over by the accounting department. I don't mind paying for quality, I do mind paying for lack of quality and trivial $5 dollar items which should be put in every car and truck. Hey Ford, make sure you remember that we are your customers, not the dealers.
  • willie19willie19 Member Posts: 139
    New to this forum and would like some advice regarding the purchase of 04 Freestar Sport model (Canadian Version).My wife and I are thinking of Sport Value Package which includes :
    Advance Trac
    All-speed traction control
    Brake Assist
    Reverse Sensing System
    17" bright machined alum. wheels
    P235/55R17 BSW all-season tires
    The MSRP for the above value pack is listed as $1200 with package discount of $205 stated in Canadian $.
    My question to you savvy guys is this:
    Will the larger 17" tires give me a better/worse ride as in handling,extra fuel consumption,erratic speedo reading, traction in snow, etc. I think this is a good package but unsure about the tire size. Another question re self sealing tires is extra at list Can.$250. Is this worthwhile? Thanks.
  • samnoesamnoe Member Posts: 731
    I'm not the big expert, but usually, bigger tires result in better handling, but not a lot. Fuel mileage should be the same; traction in snow not a big difference, but may be a bit better.

    I have now my 2002 Windstar with 16" self sealing tires, and while I don't know if it's a worthwhile option, I must say that in almost 25 months I never had a flat tire, so it seems to do a good job. These tires adds a bit to the car weight, though.
  • laundryguylaundryguy Member Posts: 89
    I liked your advice and plopped money down on a 2004 Ody yesterday with CD and cassette. Best of both worlds and can accept some future media types I had not thought of.

    Really, you can get a 2004 Ody LX for less money than a Freestar, with more leg room, CD and cassette player, a 3rd row flip seat, better gas mileage, 3500# towing, and of course inherent reliability. Paid $24,700+tax. Would have been around $22,900 or so had I not added the towing package ($1223), CD player ($495), and mud flaps ($120). Also, comes with cruise control and 240 hp at that price. Even the older Ody is better than the new Freestar. Think how far behind they will be after the new Ody comes out in September. If you really want a Freestar - wait until Fall after piles of 2005 Dodge/Chryslers are on the lot and new Ody comes out to compete with the Sienna and MPV. You will probably see unheard of rebates. Had to laugh that even the Chrysler dealer thought rebates were not far off on brand new product hitting the lots. Figured out priced too high for what you get already.
  • samnoesamnoe Member Posts: 731
    Congratulations on your new purchase. I hope you will enjoy it every minute... I've also enjoyed reading your deleted post in the Windstar problems. The Honda won't give this much problems for sure...

    Good luck and enjoy!
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    The power liftgate feature is being cancelled from now till the 2005 models start being produced. Therefore, if that's a must, you might have to make do with one already at the dealership. I'll be posting this on the Monterey forum as well.
  • vulawgradvulawgrad Member Posts: 13
    see current issue for review. (Ford was picked for best truck so no anti-ford discrimination there.) "It's got a fast-yet-frugal V-6, a supremely comfortable cabin and seats that pull the easiest switcheroos. It's a bargain."
  • laundryguylaundryguy Member Posts: 89
    Samnoe,

    I followed your advice on this and it really ended up being something I initially missed when weighing the value of options. I have one of those 9" TV's strapped between the front seats. My wife and I liked it to keep the kids in line for long trips, but the driver was nearly deaf from turning it up to get the sound to the back seat. I went to Radio Shack and for $19.99, got the headphone jack to cassette converter. I works great, except for a little hiss picked up running through the cassette apparently. Still much better than the previous setup.

    Really glad I got the cassette and CD player together - best of both worlds and really handy for anyone with the portable TV.
  • trainboytrainboy Member Posts: 66
    Been there and done that as well. We folded down the 2 row seat and the kids sat in the back. What we did differently is we got them headphones. I used a coiled cord and a splitter plug-in gizmo. We had to change the DVD every couple of hours at bio break time. A couple of times we had to look back to see if we lost them because it was so quiet.

    A buddy of mine uses his laptop computer and a small power inverter for movies. Again, his kids use headphones as well.
  • laundryguylaundryguy Member Posts: 89
    Awhile back we tried the headphones - had two splitters to net out four headphones. Kids did not like sound in one ear only plus the cheap head phones ($2 at Menards) I got were wrecked by about Georgia in a Wisconsin to Florida trip from getting in and out and stepping on them. Wireless head phones sold with new vans would solve those issues and give stereo sound I believe as well. Anyhow, headphones would give Mom and me the opportunity to listen to stereo while they watched the movie. May give it a whirl again down the road now that they are bigger and less likely to destroy the head set wiring.
  • trainboytrainboy Member Posts: 66
    I bought some $10 units at Best Buy; I think they were Sony and fold up somehow. Marking the kid's name on them give a bit of ownership. Having their name on them means they have to put the headphone on the seat when they get out. If your headphone gets wrecked, then you listen to the radio, like mom and dad.
  • spartanmannspartanmann Member Posts: 197
    New CR issue lists Toyota Sienna as best minivan. Before you all start with the bias stuff, be aware that only one vehicle was named to the Ten Best list in two categories - Ford Focus.

    The issue also shows domestics doing better than Europeans on initial quality but still far behind "Asian" manufacturers, both Japanes and Korean. How new Korean manufacturers can have better intial product quality than Ford and GM is worth considering. As usual CR falls down by not differentiating quality of "Asian" manufacturers between domestically assembled cars and cars that are actually imported.
  • samnoesamnoe Member Posts: 731
    And they also agreed that the Windstar's reliability was improved to "average" for '02 and '03 models.

    No Bias here (This month's CR magazine says on the cover "UNBIASED ratings & reviews"...) Nobody will say that Freestar beats Sienna, or comes even close. It's just sometimes that they point out the good in Toyota and the bad part in Ford's and GM's. But let's not get all over and over the same topic again.

    Let me finish off with CR's own words (pg. 16): "Our latest survey of subscribers' experiences with their cars shows that vehicles from Detroit's Big Three automakers are now slightly more reliable, on average, than those from European makers. They also tend to hold up better than the European makes as time passes, It's the first time in decades that U.S. cars have done so well".

    So that shows us that U.S. makers are working hard.
  • tamu2002tamu2002 Member Posts: 758
    So for every 10 domestic cars you get 1.8 problems, for every 10 asian cars you get 1.2 problems. Is that worth calling a "big" difference? The data suggests for every 10 domestic cars, on average 8 cars are problem free, which is the same # of prolem free cars for every 10 asian cars.

    The bottom line is initial quality is pretty much the same across the board. I think it's misleading for them to tell the public that "there's a big gap in quality between domestics and asian cars". In reality the difference is really minimal. I have read the issue so I don't know the difference in long term reliability.
  • tamu2002tamu2002 Member Posts: 758
    One has an 18% chance of getting a domestic new car with ONE problem, and 12% chance if he buys an asian brand. The difference is 6%, and we're only talking about your chance of having ONE problem here.

    Now what's the difference between their prices again...You get my point.
  • spartanmannspartanmann Member Posts: 197
    Quality sells - Period! There is a direct correlation between intial product quality and long term reliablity. The same manufacturers are the best at both. To pretend this is only a slight difference and doesn't matter is putting your head in the sand. All the Big 3 PR types immediately got out their blurbs about passing the Europeans. They obviously understand the importance of competing on quality.
  • tamu2002tamu2002 Member Posts: 758
    One has an 18% chance of getting a domestic new car with ONE problem, and 12% chance if he buys an asian brand. The difference is 6%, and we're only talking about your chance of having ONE problem here.

    Now what's the difference between their prices again...You get my point.
  • tamu2002tamu2002 Member Posts: 758
    Spartan, your point is well taken. I was only talking about the initial quality. And contrary to what one might expect, better initial quality doesn't necessarily translate to better long term reliability. There're plenty examples of that in the J. D. Power ratings, where asian brands with lower initial quality ratings actually turned out to have better mid and long term reliabilities. I still believe there's a correlation, but probably to a much lesser degree than we thought. My 2002 Malibu has a 5-star initial quality rating, better than the Camcord. I certainly hope its long term reliability will be better too :) So far so good.

    Numbers don't lie. According to my math, initial quality IS pretty much the same among manufactures. But long term reliability might be an entirely different issue.

    And again, minor difference might have a big impact on consumer perception as you said, which is why I said CR's remarks might do a disservice to the public.
  • spartanmannspartanmann Member Posts: 197
    Top sellers are Accord and Camry. They are consistently among the best in both intitial quality and long term reliability. Lexus puts almost everyone else to shame in both categories as well. No surprise they are dominating the luxury market.

    I agree there is never an exact correlation between the initial quality and long term reliability, but the combination sure seem to work for Honda and Toyota. If the Bid 3 ever catch up in either department, you'll be buried under the PR blizzard.
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