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Comments
You fail to understand that where the auto profit goes, so goes the tax revenue.
The more money going to the Japanese gov't in the form of taxes, the less is going to the US gov't and the less revenue is available for your fight against pollution.
Also, companies don't avoid paying taxes by moving jobs and manufacturing overseas. They are taxed on the profits based on where the company is legally chartered. IBM builds computers in China, but pays US taxes on it's total corporate profit, including revenue earned on those products manufactured overseas.
Finally, I doubt that the only alternative for the people who asembled your Sienna would have been to work at Home Depot. If one is able to work on an assembly line building a vehicle to the high standards that Toyota requires, they are likely able to do many other jobs to the extent that their skill, ambition and desire will allow them.
It's faulty logic to assume the best an auto worker could do elsewhere is a minimum wage job! But it sounds like you did your part to prevent them from such a dire fate.
I'm glad you're happy with your Sienna. And so is the government of Japan.
I don't know much about tax, but would explain why lots of US companies reincorporate offshore. I remember that Stanley Tool was going to move their HQ to the Bahamas until they backed down in face of public outcry.
Citizen Works
Interesting stuff, but not especially on-topic. Please take it to Toyota to pass Ford and become #2 in global sales or somewhere else in News & Views.
Let's get back to the new Freestar in here please.
Steve, Host
I personally don't care if a vehicle is made in Mars, but as Gearjammer stated: "The more money going to the Japanese gov't in the form of taxes, the less is going to the US gov't and the less revenue is available for your fight against pollution."
The reason the BIG3 have had to build assembly plants outside of the U.S., simply... UNION. Unions were great decades ago to protect worker's from bad work environment. But times have changed, and it's purpose is pointless, time to move on...
Then we have foreign automaker's building plants on the U.S., not having to deal with unions (read: more porfittable), and in the case of Japanese automaker's, their government purposely devalues their YEN to make them more profittable over american trades. (Something that has been discussed in the last WTO meetings since it's not fair)
Steve, Host
Or, can you summarize their evaluation?
That's not surprising to say the least :-)
Of course, you have to trust CR to get several things correct. For example, did they make sure the compared vehicles have the same tire pressure, a roofrack, etc., prior to running the test?
And you have to make sure that the test is fair and is fairly representative of how people typically use the compared products. A couple years ago, they critiqued the lack of a floppy drive on an iMac. Objectively true--but not representative of the way most iMac users worked and worked around getting files from one computer to another.
Bottom line is that CR gives you some objectively measured data. You have to decide if their opinion is based on the data, or whether you care about basing decisions on their data and conclusions.
Here's what their ratings were:
Acceleration - very good
Transmission - very good
Routine Handling - very good
Emergency Handling - good
Braking - very good
Headlights - good
Ride - good
Noise - good
Driving position - very good
Front seat comfort - good
Rear seat comfort - good
Third-seat comfort- poor
Access - excellent
Controls and displays - very good
Interior fit and finish - good
Cargo area - good
Crash tests:
IIHS offset - good
NHTSA front - driver & passenger - Excellent
In the narrative they said it wasn't up to the standards of the Sienna or Odyssey, but that shouldn't come as a shock to anyone. The main complaints were typical CR comments against American cars -sub-par fit and finish, ride and handling, harsh sounding engines. CR seems to say that about every American car they test.
But there were many positive comments, such as " Overall handling is sound, with restrained body lean in corners, and responsive steering... Emergency handling was secure... The optional 4.2 liter provides good performance...the four speed automatic shifts smoothly, but isn't as refined as the class leaders. Braking distances were very good on dry pavement and just a bit longer on wet....most controls are easy to to operate...the cabin has plenty of storage space..."
Most of the complaints seemed to be nit-picking, with the overall theme being - it's not as good as the Japanese vans. Can't remember the last time CR ever said a US car was...
Odyssey 0-60 8.4 sec
18 mpg
Sienna 0-60 8.8 sec
21 mpg
Freestar 0-60 9.2 sec
17 mpg
As you can see, the large pushrod engine in the Freestar offers no advantage over the smaller, more sophisticated Honda and Toyota engines
Also, note that the above are hard core numbers, not CR's nor anyone else's 'opinion'
I have many examples, and I even mailed a letter for CR to show them.
Now let’s go trough the report, step by step
“Overall, the Freestar doesn’t compete well with the best minivans, such as the Toyota Sienna & Honda Odyssey..."
“The engine is noisy and the interior fit & finish are not up to that of the better models...”
Of course, they did not forget to mention: “The Windstar’s reliability has been subpar since its introduction in 1994”.
“The Freestar has an unsettled ride, though bumps are reasonably well-absorbed”... (BTW, who ever drove a Windstar or Freestar know that this is not true: It has a smooth ride, but bumps and potholes are very sharp and upsetting sometimes).
“Road noise is audible on must surfaces”.
They do not mention that the Freestar is a big step-up from the Windstar, with much more modern controls, and better materials, they just let you know that it’s still not up to Toyota’s level of quality. They forget to add that the new Freestar is much quieter than Windstar.
“The 4-speed automatic shifts smoothly but isn’t as refined as that of the class leaders”. (Who cares....? if it’s smooth, who needs “refined”? I don’t even know what that means... it’s smooth, and that’s all I need!)
“Adjustable pedals make it easy to find a comfortable driving position, but the steering wheel adjusts ONLY for height...” Let me ask you: Which minivan, except for Toyota’s Sienna, has telescoping steering wheel? Most minivans have neither the telescoping steering wheel nor the adjustable pedals. Instead to give credit for Ford for the pedals, they left you with a bitter taste in the mouth: “but the steering wheel adjusts ONLY for height.”
Of course they also “forget” to mention that the Freestar have ALL controls lighted at night, power controls for the windows & door locks, cruise controls, and more. If Nissan would have it, they would say, “it’s a nice touch, everything is illuminated”...
“Rear head restraints are too low when fully down to adequately protect from whiplash...”, but here too, they don’t tell us that it’s for a reason: You could fold the seat straight in the floor without removing the headrests.
And what about the excellent crash-test results? Like it was non-existence.
My point is: You can see if CR likes that car or not. Everything they wrote IS TRUE. But when they like something, they're talking so positive, and almost no bad points. But in case they do not like it, it seems like the current article.
Sorry about the long message. And please, let’s not start a new conversation about CR’s reports, we have had enough of that already.
Also, the Sienna requires premium unleaded gas to achieve the numbers CR cited. While there is an overall mpg advantage on the Sienna, "real world" mpg always differs from what the EPA states, or even what a car mag review reports over the course of a one-week test. Maybe the Sienna will get 21, 25 or 17 average mpg, depending on the driver.
So, while the Sienna achieves a whopping 4 tenths-of-a-second acceleration advantage over the Freestar, whether or not it's worth buying premium gas for that paltry of an advantage is questionable.
If you look at the whole picture, not just performance, but economics, there certainly may be an advantage to the old Ford pushrod.
I doubt the average driver would notice a .4-second acceleration difference in daily driving. But they will certainly notice paying for premium unleaded gas at the pump every week.
The Freestar is a definite improvement in many areas over the Windstar as many of the previous posts support. Consumer Reports may be rightfully tagging Freestar with Windstar reliability issues if the components in question were not upgraded. Many of them were addressed. Several were not, and they went backwards in other areas.
Things that are true pluses on this vehicle:
a) 26 gallon gas tank - this is huge for the average minivan owner who drives 12,000+ miles a year. You will stop at the gas station every 9 - 10 days rather than every 7 or so days with a 20 gallon version (like Quest). Basically 21 - 22 usable gallons (or 440 miles a tank at 20 mpg) assuming you fill it up as it nears empty or the add gas light comes on.
b) Flip 3rd row seat will help it compete against foreign competition. Pulling a rear third seat out is asking for a trip to the chiropractor as most are awkward to carry and weight 120+ lbs.
A few negatives
1)3rd row legroom. Unfortunately, they stole space from the 2nd and 3rd row legroom to get the flip seat it in and unless you have toddlers or very young school age children in the 3rd row, it will be deemed intolerable for long trips. This is a show stopper for anyone with big kids who will be using the 3rd row. 2nd row legroom not much better, but instead of being 8 to 10 inches less than competition it is only 2 to 3 inches. Feels like a short wheel base van now compared to what is out there.
2) No side curtain air bag standard. Standard on all the competition for same base price.
3) No CD player in the base model. Come on Ford guys - cassettes are dead - everyone has CD's these days. The only question should be is a single player CD on the base model or a multi-disc capable model. Competition offers CD in base model for same or lower price.
4) Not a lot of flexibility in those 2nd row seats in the base model compared to the foreign competition out there.
5) Needs to upgrade towing capability to 3500 lbs pronto - still just 2000 lbs - although talk of 3500 lbs sometime around April. Hopefully, when available (and maybe that explains the delay), the base engine will have sufficient oil and tranny cooling capability so tow package is no more than wiring and a hitch, which most of the competition has moved up to. Even for those who don't tow boats or other toys, this should give you peace of mind that the tranny and engine are overdesigned.
6) Base model allow for captains chairs option rather than making you step up a trim grade.
7) Base model should have reading lights standard in both second and third row seats. Competition does for same price.
8) Base model should have cruise control standard - competitive models do.
9) Illuminated vanity mirrors should be standard in base model. Competition does for same price.
These are the ones right off the top of my head. If rebates get to $4000, than SES trim level may be able to compete against competition. S and SE just seem to be missing too many of the "basics" that now exist in minivans.
1) Toyota Sienna CE (base model) does NOT offer cruise control standard, and no lighted vanity mirrors.
2) Cassettes is NOT dead. At least for me. I still have 100's of recordings on cassettes which I don't have the time to convert for CD's. But I agree that a CD player should be standard. But I don't like those cars which does not offer cassette at all - no option! Just 6-CD changer. I like Toyota b/c they always offer both, 6-CD + cassette option.
3) Reading lights is a good point, I've even contacted Ford for that before they released the Freestar. All competitions gives you reading lights for all seats. This is not luxury, but important and very useful.
4) Captain chairs is OK, but I also like it the other way, give me an option to take a bench even on the SEL. I love bench seats for many reasons, mainly b/c the room I gain to put in another suitcase in between the seat & door.
Ford is a great company and can make great vehicles. The Freestar is a comfortable family hauler, but I don't think it has the refinement or innovation to dethrone the competition.
But I was still crazy enough to still take a look at the Freestar because of the mega rebate for intense suffering/pain/agony suffered with the Windstar.
Gotta agree that a CD/Cassette combo offers much more utility for us old folks from the 80's. I got 200 hundred cassettes too and at least they can be played in a car (unlike the old vinyl). Didn't check competition thoroughly for combo CD/cassette, but not a show stopper to me.
Regarding cruise control standard on the base, I was referring to Nissan Quest, which also has standard lighted vanity mirrors and lights in all the rows. I like the Sienna as well, but the missing cruise control seemed like a short coming on the base model and you pay full MSRP, which you may recover if you trade and don't drive into ground.
Really liked the Quest and its test drive, but can't find a way to buy one with the reliability issues of undersized heater/fan, radios that break relentless with no apparent short term fix, and door closing issues (which wouldn't open at test drive in 4F cold). Going to wait it out and see if something better shows up in the fall or if Nissan can get their act together on these few issues. Really like a few Freestar features, but they could have done so much more knowing where the competition was and where they are going.
Not really, the next Ford family of minivan will be riding on a new Mazda6 derived platform. It will be a totally different vehicle as we know it. And yes it'll have the Duratec 35.
The 4.0L SOHC couldn't be placed into the Freestar because that's a RWD specific engine/tranny combo. Much more money would have needed to be invested to make it FWD, let alone, the structure is Taurus derived and that would have required quite a bit of firewall modification to make that combination fit.
" I believe that AWD definitely should've been offered"
The Freestar/Windstar are Taurus platform derived, they do not have the capability for AWD.
The Freestar isn't an "All-New" model, as Ford claimed. As we all know, it's an updated Windstar. Since Toyota came out with the new Sienna, and Nissan with the Quest, Ford understood that the Freestar will no longer play a big role in minivan sales, and there is "something" they gotta do about it, and in a rush! before it's too late.
So they revised the Windstar, they tried hard to improve everything possible in a hurry, especially interior quality, improve some reliability issues of the old engine/tranny problems, make it quieter, stiffer frame, and fold-flat rear seat. They hoped, at least it should be better than the Windstar, so it will be a bit more competitive.
However, a new engine, transmission, AWD, and some other stuff was impossible in such a short time. Of course they now want to release the new minivan on the Mazda6 platform, but, as you see, this will take them several years. It will also take them many years to come up with the new Duratec engine, as well.
So if you like the Freestar, you should know Ford did (almost) the best they could in the Freestar, and would they have more time & money, they probably would give you some more.
Does anyone know how to find out about the $4000 rebate to previous Windstar owners. Can it be combined with the finance options?
Thanks!
Otherwise, he said, there was the standard $3000 rebate plue $1000 of "dealer cash" as an incentive.
Not sure if the dealer cash is simply a sales pitch that simply means they'll agree to take $1000 off MSRP for you if you beg and cry loud enough.
You can buy a media converter (or whatever it's called) at many stores (radio shack, walmart) for less than 20 bucks, that is a cassette which you put in your cassette player, and has a headphone plug to plug in any headphones jack, and plays the media on the cassette player.
If I'm not clear enough, let me give you an example; You have your CD player, MP3 player, or you want to watch a movie on your portable DVD player, or use your laptop to watch a movie, etc. you take that cassette, and plug the other end into the headphones jack, and now you hear everything on the speakers of your car, or cassette player at home!
My friend did it several times, and it's a good thing if you don't want to install an aftermarket DVD in your car. If your car is equipped with a cassette player, you can connect every media which have a headphone jack. My friend used a laptop to watch DVD's, and everything was amazing. Good view from a 15" monitor, and beautiful sound from the cars speakers.
that's one more reason why every car should stay with a cassette player.
There are no reading lights which means my daughter will still resort to a flashlight; The seat cushions are too short to support my long legs; There is too much plastic for a list price over $36,000 (limited); No light in the glove box; Where are the fog lights that work in the fog; Why doesn't the rear seat fold flush into the floor; Head restraints need to fit flush into the seatback when not in use so we can see out the rear window; Why isn't there a trash bin for the second/third rows; Why are ashtrays and lighters optional?
It seems the Ford design team has been taken over by the accounting department. I don't mind paying for quality, I do mind paying for lack of quality and trivial $5 dollar items which should be put in every car and truck. Hey Ford, make sure you remember that we are your customers, not the dealers.
Advance Trac
All-speed traction control
Brake Assist
Reverse Sensing System
17" bright machined alum. wheels
P235/55R17 BSW all-season tires
The MSRP for the above value pack is listed as $1200 with package discount of $205 stated in Canadian $.
My question to you savvy guys is this:
Will the larger 17" tires give me a better/worse ride as in handling,extra fuel consumption,erratic speedo reading, traction in snow, etc. I think this is a good package but unsure about the tire size. Another question re self sealing tires is extra at list Can.$250. Is this worthwhile? Thanks.
I have now my 2002 Windstar with 16" self sealing tires, and while I don't know if it's a worthwhile option, I must say that in almost 25 months I never had a flat tire, so it seems to do a good job. These tires adds a bit to the car weight, though.
Really, you can get a 2004 Ody LX for less money than a Freestar, with more leg room, CD and cassette player, a 3rd row flip seat, better gas mileage, 3500# towing, and of course inherent reliability. Paid $24,700+tax. Would have been around $22,900 or so had I not added the towing package ($1223), CD player ($495), and mud flaps ($120). Also, comes with cruise control and 240 hp at that price. Even the older Ody is better than the new Freestar. Think how far behind they will be after the new Ody comes out in September. If you really want a Freestar - wait until Fall after piles of 2005 Dodge/Chryslers are on the lot and new Ody comes out to compete with the Sienna and MPV. You will probably see unheard of rebates. Had to laugh that even the Chrysler dealer thought rebates were not far off on brand new product hitting the lots. Figured out priced too high for what you get already.
Good luck and enjoy!
I followed your advice on this and it really ended up being something I initially missed when weighing the value of options. I have one of those 9" TV's strapped between the front seats. My wife and I liked it to keep the kids in line for long trips, but the driver was nearly deaf from turning it up to get the sound to the back seat. I went to Radio Shack and for $19.99, got the headphone jack to cassette converter. I works great, except for a little hiss picked up running through the cassette apparently. Still much better than the previous setup.
Really glad I got the cassette and CD player together - best of both worlds and really handy for anyone with the portable TV.
A buddy of mine uses his laptop computer and a small power inverter for movies. Again, his kids use headphones as well.
The issue also shows domestics doing better than Europeans on initial quality but still far behind "Asian" manufacturers, both Japanes and Korean. How new Korean manufacturers can have better intial product quality than Ford and GM is worth considering. As usual CR falls down by not differentiating quality of "Asian" manufacturers between domestically assembled cars and cars that are actually imported.
No Bias here (This month's CR magazine says on the cover "UNBIASED ratings & reviews"...) Nobody will say that Freestar beats Sienna, or comes even close. It's just sometimes that they point out the good in Toyota and the bad part in Ford's and GM's. But let's not get all over and over the same topic again.
Let me finish off with CR's own words (pg. 16): "Our latest survey of subscribers' experiences with their cars shows that vehicles from Detroit's Big Three automakers are now slightly more reliable, on average, than those from European makers. They also tend to hold up better than the European makes as time passes, It's the first time in decades that U.S. cars have done so well".
So that shows us that U.S. makers are working hard.
The bottom line is initial quality is pretty much the same across the board. I think it's misleading for them to tell the public that "there's a big gap in quality between domestics and asian cars". In reality the difference is really minimal. I have read the issue so I don't know the difference in long term reliability.
Now what's the difference between their prices again...You get my point.
Now what's the difference between their prices again...You get my point.
Numbers don't lie. According to my math, initial quality IS pretty much the same among manufactures. But long term reliability might be an entirely different issue.
And again, minor difference might have a big impact on consumer perception as you said, which is why I said CR's remarks might do a disservice to the public.
I agree there is never an exact correlation between the initial quality and long term reliability, but the combination sure seem to work for Honda and Toyota. If the Bid 3 ever catch up in either department, you'll be buried under the PR blizzard.