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Ford Fusion/Mercury Milan

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Comments

  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    We have had a Jetta with tiptronic for about a month, so have had very limited experience with the "automanual". Our transmission also has a "sport mode" in addition to the normal "D" drive mode. I have only driven it a couple of times, but so far I would say that I am more likely to use the sport mode than the tiptronic. The sport mode tends to shift more like I would with a manual.

    I can think of a couple situations where the tiptronic might be useful or convenient. One being dowshifting on a long steep decline and the other being to downshift in advance (as I might do with a manual) when you are planning to pass on a 2 lane highway.

    Also with a 6-speed the automatic, it probably looks nicer having the tiptronic instead of P-R-N-D-5-4-3-2-1 on the transmission selector. What does Ford do about all those gears with the selector on their 6 speed auto?
  • jcat707jcat707 Member Posts: 169
    I agree that Ford most likely won't lose any sales over the lack of an automanual feature. The Camcords don't offer one and look how well those sell. I was just wondering why Ford doesn't offer them in more vehicles.
  • driverdmdriverdm Member Posts: 505
    I own a 2004 Mazda6 and I can't tell you how much I love my manu-matic. It has become such a love of mine that it is my ultimate drawback to the Fusion/Milan. The lack of that feature makes me look at other cars or just wait for the new Mazda6. I lived in Boston for some time, making a stick impratical. Traffic usually involved a 1 to 3 hour wait. The control that a manu-shift gives you and the extra excitment is really what makes it such a good option. It makes the car more than just an appliance like a Camry. I think Ford made a mistake by not including it. At least I can count on Mazda, the are in it for "the relentless pursuit of fun".
  • mayberryguymayberryguy Member Posts: 145
    Most domestically built autos use the same Air Bag supplier.
  • mayberryguymayberryguy Member Posts: 145
    Save yourself the pain of waiting for AWD on the Fusion. Go buy a Subaru Outback or Legacy right now and get Standard AWD, Standard Side Air Bags, Standard ABS, and Standard Side Curtain Air Bags. You can also get 250hp in a 3.0l or 250hp in a 2.5l Turbo. Not to mention you get a longer warranty.

    This is what is wrong with Ford and GM of late. They have slashed prices and content too much and are getting killed by everyone else who makes these safety items STANDARD. Does anyone else agree?
  • mayberryguymayberryguy Member Posts: 145
    BMW and Subaru have excellent "sport shift" automatics.
  • exalteddragon1exalteddragon1 Member Posts: 729
    The manumatic issue will be a big deal to many buyers.

    For basically the same price, they could get a bigger Camry that (at least now) does not have a manumatic, the only way to justify a smaller car for the same price (and milege) is features, and sporty handling.

    The Fusion has style, it just needs the nav, xenon, and manumatic to match. Then the competition is in trouble.
  • johnclineiijohnclineii Member Posts: 2,287
    Most domestically built autos use the same Air Bag supplier.

    Yep, and most domestically built autos have the same capacity restraints on side air bags and curtains. Gee, whiz...

    I think what I said is that supplier favors the companies that haven't beaten it up over the last nickel and dime on price, like GM and Ford do and have. The companies that treat it as a co-partner in the business (only relatively speaking) are getting first dibs on the limited supply. Imagine that. Companies would rather do business with someone who is at least not a royal pain to do business with. (I still think this will some day be the downfall of the world's largest retailer---who is notorious for beating up suppliers over cost reductions, and who is, correctly or not, largely attributed with the move of many suppliers' production plants from the USA to the Far East).

    How does any of this have to do with the Fusion? As has been pointed out, the Fusion's primary non-domestic name plate competitors, though priced slightly higher, come with many safety features that are extra cost--or not even available at all--on the Fusion.

    We haven't even taken into account that with larger volume and build simplicity, standard features end up costing less PER UNIT than they would to buyers who chose them as options.

    Separately, exalteddragon1, don't miss that you have inadvertantly (?) exhibited the attitude that causes the USA to miss out on many great small cars (like Ka and Mondeo). Many in this country DO think bigger is better than smaller and will not pay more for a smaller car than for a lesser equipped large car. This is part of why Contour didn't succeed.

    In the USA, companies have frequently avoided building smaller cars due to the attitude that small cars must have small prices and cost less than large cars...which results in fewer small cars being well equipped, and moving customers up to larger cars than they would otherwise buy (which does at least three things, one good for the auto companies, one probably a good thing for the customers, the other not so good for the customers and the Nation: the auto companies make more money, as to get automatic climate control, for example, customers have to buy a midsize or larger car; larger cars have better safety--just as a matter of physics--IF all other things are equal; but use more fuel and are harder to park and take up more space on the highways).
  • mschmalmschmal Member Posts: 1,757
    This guy is a little confused. Subaru formerly of Fuji Hevy Industires IS OWNED BY GM!

    Keep watching Subaru and you will see GM totally screw up another good car company. the Saabarus are only the first step you can be sure.

    Also, Subaru sales are WAY down this year and so is Honda.

    The only car company that is really doing well is Toyota.

    I will probably end up buying a Fusion...I mean I get the A-plan price. But would I rather have a Audi? DAMN RIGHT.

    Don't think that price dosen't matter. GM is kicking butt through June with the "pay what we pay" compaign and its mostly a gimick. (cheaper price is exchanged for less rebates.)

    Think of all those people throwing down their hard-earned dough for Malibus and G6s all because they falsely believe they are getting a lower price.

    Damn right lower price will get some people to consider a Fusion who otherwise wouldn't look at a Ford. Just the way Hyundai's 10 year warranty got some people to consider a Hyundai who otherwise would not have.

    Mark
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    This guy is a little confused. Subaru formerly of Fuji Hevy Industires IS OWNED BY GM!

    Umm - Fuji Heavy Industries (FHI) is 20% owned by GM. Subaru is wholly owned by FHI. Get those facts straight.
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    Oh man, thank God you didnt say that on one of the Subaru forums.

    ~alpha
  • mayberryguymayberryguy Member Posts: 145
    Um, you should check your facts. Fuji Heavy Industries OWNS Subaru. GM only has a 20% share of stock, a long way from controlling ownership.

    Subaru posted record sales in April with the other months close to breaking records. GM will not tell Subaru what to do. Subaru is selling well in spite of some of the lowest rebates, which as of right now the biggest rebates are $1500. Some models are not rebated at all and still selling well.

    They build a product that is good value and fun to drive along with reliable and people are still buying them. How well would GM and Ford do if their highest rebate was $1500? Not well I think.
  • mayberryguymayberryguy Member Posts: 145
    I would like to see Juice get wind of that post...lol
  • chris65amgchris65amg Member Posts: 372
    "BMW and Subaru have excellent "sport shift" automatics."

    I liked Toyota's in the MR2 as well. Ford doesn't seem to do them, though. Not really that I care, but it would be an interesting feature. Audi's DSG is really good. I've heard mixed about BMW's SMG though. I know people who love it, and people who think it's worse than I-Drive :P

    I have a very positive outlook for Subaru. They are spreading out to different markets like crossovers and whatnot. Also, Subaru runs a plant in my hometown that pretty much keeps the place running. Well, that and Purdue University.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    GM owns 20% of FHI, but they don't own the other 80%. GM has one single member on the FHI board. It's not a majority by a long shot.

    Proof of their independence came when they rejected using a GM platform for the Tribeca, note it has a boxer engine and is a pure Subaru design. Saab sort of got stuck with the leftovers - yet another TrailBlazer clone and a warmed over WRX.

    Subaru sales are not down at all, they are in fact up about 5% from last year, which by the way was a record year, best ever. April 2005 was Subaru's best month ever.

    Fusion looks very promising and will be a big hit for Ford, a nice follow-up to the very successful Mustang launch. Now they should try to infuse some of that excitement in the Five Hundred.

    -juice
  • savethelandsavetheland Member Posts: 671
    Ford sells more Mustangs than Subaru, well Subarus. Subaru is a niche car. Mustang too btw. But Fusion is not, it is just mainstream with some sporty flair.

    Who needs manumatics, it is waste of money and engineering resources, just another way to rip off customers. If you need better control and feeling go buy manual that is superior to any manumatic and is less prone to failure.
  • johnclineiijohnclineii Member Posts: 2,287
    a. I didn't know Subaru sold ANY Mustangs! :)

    b. It's easy to criticize manumatics and send people out to buy manual shifts when you don't frequently drive in bumper to bumper traffic jams for three hours at a time where the CHOICE NOT to shift gears is a near essential. There is a market for these things, probably a far larger market than for manuals, quite frankly...
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    There is a market for these things, probably a far larger market than for manuals, quite frankly...

    That is just about certain, since the market for manual in the US is, I believe, less than 10% and probably half of those choose manual for purely economic reasons.

    Didn't Edmunds recently announce the coming end of the manual transmission when they tested the audi/vw DSG? :)
  • gogophers1gogophers1 Member Posts: 218
    Save yourself the pain of waiting for AWD on the Fusion. Go buy a Subaru Outback or Legacy right now and get Standard AWD, Standard Side Air Bags, Standard ABS, and Standard Side Curtain Air Bags. You can also get 250hp in a 3.0l or 250hp in a 2.5l Turbo. Not to mention you get a longer warranty.

    And while you're saving yourself the pain of waiting for AWD, cough up another $12K as a Subaru with a 6 or turbo pushes $30K.

    On a different note, what about those spy shots of the 2007 Accord? Hmmm... looks a lot like the 2005 Accord if you ask me. Even GM changes more than the tail lights on their mid-cycle refreshes.

    I think some folks here are having difficulty with the Fusion concept. It's meant to be an entry level midsizer. If you want NAV, AWD, curtain airbags, ESC, HID, TMX, seat coolers, mood lighting and dual rocket thrusters, you're missing the point. This isn't an entry level luxury car. It's a Ford. Expect style, good handling and affordability along with a handful of a la carte options to suit your individual needs. Check the boxes you need/want and leave the others empty.

    We've got some chronic complainers on this board and it's tiring. Why isn't this standard? Why isn't this optional? Blah, blah, blah... These are the same folks that go into Red Lobster and get all huffy because they feel their dining experience wasn't "five-star level."

    The problem with making everything standard is that you close the door on certain customers. Take the Sonata. It's quite a nice car and I was interested until I found out that in order to get the sunroof, I had to settle for a slushbox - brilliant thinking. Apparently sunshine and not shifting go together in Hyundai's mind. As do alloys and not shifting (it's common knowledge that folks who prefer shifting themselves hate alloy wheels... uh huh).

    Personally, I like Ford's idea of not tying expensive features together that are critical buy factors. Don't want to pay extra for side airbags? Fine. Don't want to be forced into an automatic if you want a sunroof? That's good too. Variety is the spice of life my friends. Just because you want to veg out behind the wheel doesn't mean all drivers should be forced into an automatron. And just because you feel that piloting a car without full perimeter airbags is akin to engaging in some type of Kamakazi mission doesn't mean everyone shares this belief.
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    "The problem with making everything standard is that you close the door on certain customers. Take the Sonata. It's quite a nice car and I was interested until I found out that in order to get the sunroof, I had to settle for a slushbox - brilliant thinking. Apparently sunshine and not shifting go together in Hyundai's mind. As do alloys and not shifting (it's common knowledge that folks who prefer shifting themselves hate alloy wheels... uh huh)."

    Seems like a well calculated risk based on the fact that about <10% of new vehicles are sold with manual transmissions, and that percentage is probably lower for the Sonata line. Since its not a particularly sporting vehicle anyway, chances are those buying the 5M are probably doing so for reasons of perceived economy.

    Thank you for pointing out that the Fusion is a Ford. Correct me if Im wrong, but the Accord is a mere Honda, Camry a simple Toyota and yet both can be outfitted with many of the options you perceive as premium, and in some cases they're standard. As a frame of reference, I love Red Lobster, and havent ever had a bad experience there. :P

    I think the Fusion looks like a great entry. I dont think its smart for Ford to play a value card by simply showing prices with even attempting features parity. I also think that the freshened Accord and the new Camry (to debut in February) are going to continue to be tough competition in the midsize segment, as is the newly capable and enjoyable to drive Sonata. And of course, the 6 is due for freshening as well.

    With regards to your statement on safety: "And just because you feel that piloting a car without full perimeter airbags is akin to engaging in some type of Kamakazi mission doesn't mean everyone shares this belief" This is the family sedan segment, and safety sells. God knows that Ford trumpets safety ratings moreso than any brand this side of Volvo (which is Ford anyway). That said, for all their mention of safety, theres not much said about vehicles where the equipment isnt standard, such as on the Focus' or Escape's IIHS side impact without optional bags.

    my .02

    ~alpha

    PS- A base Legacy GT is $26.3K MSRP, you do bad math if the difference from base Fusion V6 (w/o AWD) to that figure is $12 grand.

    (FWIW, that Legacy doesnt have a moonroof or leather, BUT does have ABS, side curtains, AWD, multifunction trip computer, full power accesories, 17 inch alloys, heated front seats, electroluminescent gauges, 6 disc in dash CD, and dual zone auto climate control).
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    Sorry about that last post, I cant seem to enter paragraphs for some reason?

    wierd.

    ~alpha
  • gogophers1gogophers1 Member Posts: 218
    That is just about certain, since the market for manual in the US is, I believe, less than 10% and probably half of those choose manual for purely economic reasons.

    You believe is right. The friends I have that drive sticks aren't doing it for cost reasons. They're doing it because they enjoy the experience. Personally, I would pay extra for a stick if I had to and in some cars (e.g., the GTO and Corvette) that's just the case.

    On the other hand, I have no problem with automatic transmissions - for other people. From what I've witnessed out there, the majority of drivers can barely figure out what passing lanes and turn signals are for let alone how to work a clutch and shift at the same time. Throw in a little traffic and a stick of chewing gum and it's a 20 car pile-up. The last time I went to the DMV they were handing out licenses to anyone with a pulse, correctible vision and $18. So long as these folks are on the road, I say keep those automatics comin'.

    As far as "manumatics" are concerned, I too fail to see the point. What possible purpose could a person have for manually shifting an automatic transmission? It's like turning the agitator by hand in a washing machine - very strange.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    The "I believe" was in reference to the 10% figure, because this is an approximate number I thought I have heard/read...looks like current figure is 12-13%:

    http://home.hamptonroads.com/stories/story.cfm?story=76901&ran=172509

    The fact that you know a couple people who choose manual purely because they enjoy dirving them, does not mean that others are not choosing them to save money. I don't think, for example, many MTX Hyundai Accents are being bought with MTX for the pure pleasure of driving them.
  • fsmmcsifsmmcsi Member Posts: 792
    Ford is on to something. All of those who have observed that Ford allows far greater freedom of choice with regard to options have identified one of their key competitive advantages.

    A few examples:

    When my wife and I were shopping for a car to replace her 1994 Thunderbird LX V8, we considered and rejected both the Accord and Mazda 6 two door models because you have to have the sunroof with side air bags. However, I did not fit in either car with the sun roof, and the side air bags are a proven safety feature we will not do without.

    I just ordered a 2006 Explorer Limited V8 to replace my 2002 Mountaineer, and was happy that Ford did not force me to have the 3rd row seat and rear air conditioning, expensive things I never used on the Mountaineer.
  • johnclineiijohnclineii Member Posts: 2,287
    and:

    * I rejected a Mazda 626 in the early nineties because to get it with ABS, you had to have a sunroof....No, thanks.

    * One of the reasons I bought the Five Hundred I now own is that I could get it equipped the way I wanted with options like AWD, the safety package and reverse sensors but without leather or sunroof. I could easily have afforded both, but wanted neither...

    * Honda and Toyota both package their cars in such a way that if there is virtually any major options, you will get both sunroof and leather. For many, this is a plus...but if you don't want those things AT ALL, it isn't...Toyota shows option configurations in its brochures that it may or may not be building, and sells differently equipped cars in each region of the country. You may be able to get a Camry equipped a certain way in New Hampshire but not Alabama, unless you either do a very long mileage dealer trade or travel to New Hampshire and get it!

    * Dealers much prefer simple take it or leave it packages, especially on hot selling cars that someone WILL buy, regardless of what. Until very recently, that was true in spades for both Camry and Accord. Incentives were unheard of, and prices OVER MSRP were not unheard of...when there are more buyers than cars, manufacturers can and will force options on people (look at what you must get and pay for to get a 300 with a Hemi...) Conversely, if a car isn't selling at all well, you get things for a lower price that normally would not be standard, such as a 10 year, 100,000 mile powertrain warranty...or if the cars competing against you offer such a thing, you as a manufacturer may have to match such offerings..It's all marketing, and it is a science...
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    These are the same folks that go into Red Lobster and get all huffy because they feel their dining experience wasn't "five-star level."

    Now THAT was priceless!!!!
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    And while you're saving yourself the pain of waiting for AWD, cough up another $12K as a Subaru with a 6 or turbo pushes $30K

    Don't expect a similar Fusion/Milan to cost any less. In fact the MazdaSpeed 6 costs more than a similarly equipped Legacy GT. And that's what a hopped-up Fusion would share parts with (SVT Fusion, anyone?).

    You can actually get a Legacy GT for $23k or so, much less than you think.

    -juice
  • shado4shado4 Member Posts: 287
    "The new 2006 Ford Fusion. Safety available at extra cost"

    Sorry, gogophers1, if you think we are chronic complainers. But when it comes to safety, I WILL complain loud and large to all who will hear me. It pisses me off that Ford fails to see the significance of making safety items standard or even available, just like it pisses you off when you chronically complain about manufacturers bundling options together that result in depriving you of a manual transmission. We've heard your rant before...manual trans, sunroof. No ifs, ands or buts. Frankly, it's getting tiresome. :P
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    The same situation occured in the 500 Forum. Previously to the car being released, you had many people complaining/whining, for one thing or another.

    We had the "Oh it's not powerful enough"... Yet, all the owner's buying it (and in the forum) have no issues with that.

    Then we had that "Oh, another Ford that won't be reliable"...

    A few suvey's have already been released, putting it at the head or near the top in it's segment... etc.

    The same will occur with the Fusion, yet you will always have nay-sayers in Forums, and that's ok, everyone has their opinion and proof will be in the pudding later.
  • chris65amgchris65amg Member Posts: 372
    ""The same will occur with the Fusion, yet you will always have nay-sayers in Forums, and that's ok, everyone has their opinion and proof will be in the pudding later.""

    I really doubt it. Ford had a flop with the Five Hundred in terms of power. Compared to other full-size sedans of similar cost, it is depowered by no small degree. Look at a Limited. It starts at 27k or so, yes? And the 300 Limited is somewhere roughly around there (28k, possibly?). It's a bunch more powerful. My problem isn't with the base model, as the Five Hundred actually outpowers the base 300 and Lucerne. But once the trim levels go up toward that 29k average car price in America, the Five Hundred falls short. As for reliability, it's about time.

    I think that the Fusion will do well, but as for Ford wanting to displace the Camcord, it's not going to happen. Don't ask why or how, but it probably won't. A Ford is a Ford and a Camcord is a Camcord. I am being rude, I am sure, but I know several people who won't buy Fords. Ah, pudding is good.
  • exalteddragon1exalteddragon1 Member Posts: 729
    The whole deal with the manumatic is choice. When you are in traffic, you leave it on auto, when you are tired, you leave it on auto, when you have a nice stretch of curvy road and you want to have some fun, you move your shifter over and enjoy.

    I test-drove a Saab and a Lincoln with a manumatic, the salesperson at the lincon dealer would not let me use it (guess who lost my business?) and the saab guy was about my age and let me rip it.

    The saab's engine is only 4 cylinder, but you would be hard pressed to tell with the manumatic, it made everything so much fun, what an exiting drive! And no "clutch pedal" or whetever you call it that you have to press to move your shifter. That's so annoying, i can't imagine how people drive manuals and thank god i am in the USA where we don't have to.

    Ford needs to offer this option, if for no other reason than to back up the marketing of this car. If its sporty, give me some sporty features! This car is smaller than a camry, and claims to make up for it with the "fun to drive" factor. Well, if you can't afford two cars (one manual one auto) than a fun to drive sport sedan with a manumatic and roomy enough to be comfortable sounds like the right mix.
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    And the 300 Limited is somewhere roughly around there (28k, possibly?). It's a bunch more powerful.

    AWD 300 Limited starts at $31,370 with the 3.5L V6 whereas the AWD FH Limited starts at $28,090. The former has 250 HP/250 ft-lbs to move 4034 lbs around and the latter has 203 HP/207 ft-lbs to move 3815 lbs around.

    I'm not sure I'd say it's a bunch more powerful given those numbers. Put the $3000 you save buying the FH into engine mods and you can take on the 300's Hemi! :P
  • badgerfanbadgerfan Member Posts: 1,565
    Why immediately jump to a Five Hundred Limited for your comparisons when the base Five Huindred SE starts at MSRP $22840 including shipping, and you can buy one for about $21K, and it is decently equipped with the most of the stuff people want these days without being overloaded with the less necessary bells and whistles. And, for a MSRP $24640 you can get the SE AWD version. Certainly these are not overpriced!

    Your main beef is the price of the uplevel units, but this occurs on virtually all mass market (non luxury cars). You can push a Camry, Accord, Altima or even an Impala easily into the mid to high 20's as well. Even Avalon, starts at MSRP $26890 including shipping and without AWD. And I agree Avalon has more bells and whistles (though no AWD option, a small trunk, and no folding seats-Oh but it has covers over all the controls, and a lot of metallic colored plastic and fake wood in the dash so it must be oustanding! ;) )

    Yes once you get into the near $30K range the argument can be made that there are more cost effective choices out there than Five Hundred with higher performance engines, but power is only part of the whole story here, and will be remedied shortly with the optional 3.5 Duratech.

    "A Ford is a Ford and a Camcord is a Camcord". Well, based on the postings I monitor in the CamCord discussions (check the Maintenance & Repair Edmunds discussions for yourself), the Camcords ain't all that great and are living on past perceived reputation in my opinion.
  • gogophers1gogophers1 Member Posts: 218
    The saab's engine is only 4 cylinder, but you would be hard pressed to tell with the manumatic, it made everything so much fun, what an exiting drive! And no "clutch pedal" or whetever you call it that you have to press to move your shifter. That's so annoying, i can't imagine how people drive manuals and thank god i am in the USA where we don't have to.

    If you get a thrill from moving the lever back and forth when the mood strikes, more power to you. What you do with your automatic is your business. I'm just happy to hear that you're not doing it in heavy traffic.
  • savethelandsavetheland Member Posts: 671
    a. I didn't know Subaru sold ANY Mustangs!

    It will do, in the end :) Mustang outsells 13 brands, according to the press:
    link '05 Mustang roars to 47 percent sales gain

    "The redesigned car is selling better than Chrysler's popular 300 sedan. It also is outselling 13 brands, including Scion, Saturn, Mercedes-Benz and Subaru.
    "

    b. It's easy to criticize manumatics and send people out to buy manual shifts when you don't frequently drive in bumper to bumper traffic jams for three hours at a time where the CHOICE NOT to shift gears is a near essential. There is a market for these things, probably a far larger market than for manuals, quite frankly...

    If you cannot drive stick - don't do it. But do not think that manumatic is anywhere close to stick. You gain nothing driving manumatic, except of wannabe rich factor. Driving stick you gain control over the car.

    BTW Ford is also on the top of dependability survey:

    link GM, Ford, Toyota among top performers in vehicle dependability survey
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,250
    "Or a Corolla GT-S from the mid-80's. 110 or so hp!". i remember those. 16v I-4. there was a good looking blonde divorcee where i worked back then, who drove a red one. ;)
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • johnclineiijohnclineii Member Posts: 2,287
    Oh, I can drive a stick....but as I said, it ain't no fun at all in three hours of bumper to bumper slow moving traffic. And clutchs ain't cheap...
  • tacoboytacoboy Member Posts: 25
    I have driven MT cars my whole life and am very disappointed the Fusion V6 is auto only. I'll probably buy a Mazda 6s with the MT instead.

    That said I don't think automanuals are useless. Most cars upshift way too soon, an automanual lets you hold a gear longer for much better part throttle acceleration. Also, it's nice to be able to drop a gear prior to passing rather than waiting (hoping) that the auto will kick down on it's own. Maybe these are not issues with good AT cars , but the rentals I've had would have been completely devoid of personality without the automanual feature.
  • theman123theman123 Member Posts: 170
    Wow !!! that's very interesting.
    The one thing that got me about the surver is that Mercury is only 1 point behind Toyota. Lincolns are more dependable than Infinti. Man that's some news. Our good friends over at Hyundai are not even with the industry standard. As well is Mr. Mercedes-Benz. Ford is way ahead of Nissan as far as dependablitity. Man that survey is going to stur a S@#$ storm. I just wonder what the Import lovers would have to say about that one. I better leave that topic alone. With that, I really think the Fusion is going to sell now :)

    J.D. Power and Associates Dependability survey
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    To me these quality surveys don't do a thing for me. Do I care that a 2002 Malibu was the most reliable car in its segment. NO, I've driven them and I don't care if it breaks or not, it's still a POS. It doesn't feel like quality to me.

    There is a difference between quality and reliability. Mercedes proves this point. They are very high quality cars, the few I've had the luxury to drive or ride in just scream vault like build quality, just not reliable due to mainly electronics. A timex is reliable, but a Rolex is quality. I'm sure I'll get flamed but that's how I see it.

    In my garage is a 2000 Suburban, 2003 Taurus, and a 2001 Nissan Pathfinder (soon to be turned in off lease). The Pathfinder is by far the best built vehicle of the lot, the Burb and Taurus don't come close, neither did the 01 Impala we had before the Taurus in terms of powertrain refinement and overall solidness and build quality. I like the burb for its utility, but my god, could their be a worse built vehicle for $40K in terms of squeaks, rattles and interior quality. The Taurus, while reliable, feels cheap and unsubstantial in every way.

    Granted I've sampled a new Armada and they don't seem to be screwed together as well as my current Pathfinder, and all of the Nissan's have seemed to be cheapened up, though, their v6 & v8 powertrains are second to none.

    One more thing, I'm not on this thread to bash Ford. I'm am intersted in the Fusion and it has definitely grabbed my attention
  • johnclineiijohnclineii Member Posts: 2,287
    High quality, as you apparently define it, dieselone, means nothing when a Mercedes is your only car, you need to get somewhere NOW, and the darn thing won't start or run. I've had it happen to many of my friends. They now own Lexi. And people wonder why the Japanese manufacturers are doing so well. BMW and Mercedes both seemed to forget that the FIRST duty of a car is to run, first time, every time. (That includes not having some high falutin electronic system so complicated that the average owner can't start the car without a manual, which BMW seemed to forget to not do).

    A nice, well put together interior and a drive train with high levels of refinement don't matter much if the customer can't get to where he needs to go because the car either wouldn't start or suddenly stopped running.

    Hopefully, the Fusion will be reliable and will have an acceptable level of quality for the price. But, at least in my book, reliability is a LOT more important than perceived levels of quality, refinement, etc. For instance, to ME, no vehicle has a better interior for the price than a Passat. But, again, I would never own one. See, I own ONE vehicle, not three. It has to run when I need to get somewhere. I don't trust a Passat. I've seen what happens to friends who own them. I have another friend who is a VW mechanic, and I have heard his stories told in unguarded moments. Stories about coil wires, vehicles suddenly coming to a halt without warning, stories of virtually new cars being towed to the dealer, where, mysteriously, nothing can be found wrong...and then it happens again next week.

    I DO trust a Ford. A Five Hundred. It's out in the car park now. If a Fusion is virtually as safe and more fun to drive, when AWD comes next year, I may well trade for one....or I may get a Five Hundred with the new engine.

    Reliability? I bought a Five Hundred the first year of production, in the second month! I did the same with the Impala back in MY 2000. I really do not think Ford (or for that matter, GM) has the reliability issues that it once did...
  • dave2222dave2222 Member Posts: 78
    Please tell me that my friend is wrong on this.

    He told me the Zephyr will be getting the 35 for marketing reasons and to differentiate it from the Fusion, but the Fusion wont be getting the 35 at all. WHAT IS FORD THINKING?! It doesnt make sense. The 35 should be standard on the Zephyr, but optional on the Fusion. Dont they realize the camry is getting a power boost next year and its already outclassed HP wise by the Altima, Sonata, and Accord? Please tell me theres 35 Fusion models. Im praying that ford isnt using the mazdasetup as a sad excuse for an SVT version.

    The 35 may only account for 20% of the sales of the fusion, but it can still be profitable. If they used the Zephyr calibration program they could easily put it into the Fusion. I hope Ford isnt making this mistake.

    The Fusion is supposed to be a more edgy sedan, correct? The Altima is one of its biggest competitors. Nissan has shown the ability to sell the 3.5 at a profitable level. It makes perfect sense that Ford could sell the Fusion 35 at a profitable level. The 35 cost is already spread over multiple vehicles as well the first being the aviator. Also if the Fusion wants to steal some of the performance customers from Nissan theyll have to at least offer the 3.5
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    I agree GM & Ford have really improved the reliability of their cars.
    But I still don't put much stock in the quality survey's, they don't tell you the nature of the problems. Here's an example:

    My 00 Suburban (53kmiles) and 01 Pathfinder (60k miles) have both had two problems that needed to be repaired that I consider outside of normal wear and tear items.

    The PF has required a replacement 02 sensor @ 25k (under warranty) and a valve timing position sensor @ 45k miles that cost me $300 since it was out of the 36k bumper to bumper warranty, neither issue caused driveability issues other than a SERVICE ENGINE LIGHT.

    The Suburban had a pitman arm wear out @ 46k miles costing me $300 and at 47k miles the transmission died requiring a $1500 rebuild and obviously leaving the vehicle undriveable.

    With these two scenarios, which would be reported as the vehicle with higher reliability. They would be the same since they both had two problems, yet the seriousness of the problems are very different and tell a completely different story.

    I'm not trying to turn this into a domestic vs. foreign debate as it doesn't really relate to the Fusion. I am really looking forward to seeing this car due to the fact my wife's job may be changing requiring us to replace her company car (taurus) in the fall.

    I really would prefer to buy used but their are two new cars I'm considering and they both happen to be Fords. The Fusion and a Mustang GT convertible.
  • frizz2112frizz2112 Member Posts: 84
    I agree that you have to take these surveys with a grain of salt. I used to own a Mercury Mystique, and despite the fact that it was the exact same car as the Ford Contour, built in the same plant, the Mercury consistently did much better in quality surveys. You really have to look in great detail at the survey to figure out just what it's measuring. In this case the type of buyer was probably important; Mercury buyers are older on average than Ford buyers. You also have the recent case where Hummer went up dramatically in the quality ratings just by informing people that they would be getting crappy mileage. Apparently, a complaint about poor mileage in a Hummer constituted a "problem" in that survey, just like a faulty transmission would have.

    That said, I think if you look at all the quality surveys and average them out, you get a pretty good idea of how a car is likely to hold up. You just can't get too specific with them.

    As far as actual reliability vs. perceived quality, is concerned: Sure, actual reliability is most important to the owner of a car, but to the buyer, perceived quality can be more important. If you sit in a car and it feels cheap, you get the impression that it's a cheap car, and are less likely to buy it. If the car feels tight and has good materials, it gives the impression that it will be reliable. This is where Ford needs to improve IMO. They seem to be making nice gains in reliability, but in perceived quality, they are still somewhat behind. Hopefully the Fusion is an improvement in this area.
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    Yes, the Fusion will get the Duratec35 as well. The Aviator will be the first vehicle that debuts the engine, this coming spring '06 Then it gets phased into the Zephyr and the other midsizers, then the 500/FS receives it....etc.
  • johnclineiijohnclineii Member Posts: 2,287
    Yeah, but will the AWD get the 3.5 in either the Fusion OR the Five Hundred, that is the question...
  • mayberryguymayberryguy Member Posts: 145
    And while you're saving yourself the pain of waiting for AWD, cough up another $12K as a Subaru with a 6 or turbo pushes $30K

    How many people have been on Fords website to actually build a Fusion? I did a SEL with 3.0 and loaded it up with all the goods as well as some of the possible "future" option offerings. The MSRP exceeded 32K. You have got to be kidding me. I would definitely would want AWD no questions asked. Do you realize the price market that a loaded up Fusion would be playing in? You can have an AWD Subaru Legacy GT Limited with 250hp for 30K, not to mention AWD versions of the Volvo S40, BMW 325xi, Audi A4 for around 32k. Is this really intended to be an entry luxury market car?

    Does Ford really expect to sell many loaded up Fusions? I agree it is nice looking car and I've owned many Fords in my day, but I can't see paying 32k for a Fusion when you could have numerous other offerings for the same money.

    This is only my opinion, but I can't be the only one thinking this, can I? I qualify for X Plan through my employer but I can't see enough of a savings with that to make this a reasonable case. I just bought a new BMW 325xi 4 months ago for less than 30k out the door and MSRP was 32k. I just don't see how they are in the same league, in my opinion.

    This isn't to say that they will not sell well on the bottom to mid range packages because I think they will, but on the top models they are priced too high if the future option pricing is close.

    I am not beating up on Ford because I don't like them. If you take a look at my profile I have owned a good portion of Ford vehicles over the years and they are good reliable cars. It does worry me that they are not offering all of the safety items as standard and that they are pricing the top models in entry luxury pricing range.
  • johnclineiijohnclineii Member Posts: 2,287
    yeah, if those option test prices remain true, Ford is still playing the game of trying to get customers to move UP to a larger (and more profitable for Ford) car. In this time of higher gasoline prices and increased environmental awareness, I don't know that that is very smart...

    Then again, isn't that the same game Subaru is playing? Have you seen their newest offerings and the astounding prices they intend to try to charge for their new large seven passenger SUV?
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    You can have an AWD Subaru Legacy GT Limited with 250hp for 30K, not to mention AWD versions of the Volvo S40, BMW 325xi, Audi A4 for around 32k. Is this really intended to be an entry luxury market car?

    True, but the Fusion will most likely have the Duratec35 with at least 240HP by then. Since HP seems to be so important to many around here, that is more HP than all of the other cars you mentioned have except for the Legacy. The Fusion's interior won't be any worse than the Subie's at that price point either so what's the big deal? I haven't checked the standard features list of the other cars lately but I'm assuming that a $32k Fusion would have more content that is optional on the others as well? Things like a navigation system, premium stereo, etc.?

    IMO I don't see the Fusion getting that pricey unless it's an SVT version. In which case those other cars you mentioned will all be left in the dust. If you want some reasoning for that then take a look at the Fusion's cousin, the new MAZDASPEED Mazda6.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    I did a SEL with 3.0 and loaded it up with all the goods as well as some of the possible "future" option offerings. The MSRP exceeded 32K. You have got to be kidding me. I would definitely would want AWD no questions asked.

    Sorry, but it is kind of silly to load a car up with all available options and possible future options and then complain about the price. You can get MSRP of a Taurus or an Impala up to about $30K, just with real existing options. I am sure there are not too many buyers paying $30K for those cars. (Adding, currently unavailable, AWD would probably put them at about $32K, as well)

    AWD is an expensive option. Interestingly a co-worker, who has always implied that one can not live without 4 wheel drive, recently settled for a FWD Honda minivan because his wife wanted it. He has since found that his minivan with 2 wheel drive and stability control is better in snow/ice than his 4 wheel drive SUV.
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