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Blackwood was the answer to a question no one really asked. A truck with an unusable pick-up bed. Then what's the point?
The Marauder project is to test a few things out (which we will see in the future). It's a niche product and sales are as they expected, and they are making money off of it.
So, I don't know if it was so much the product. Clearly, it was never intended for mass appeal. But if they had got them out there when they said they would, add 4WD and a tan interior, I think they may be around today. But, what do I know?
From the beginning, I knew the vehicle would fail. Mainly because of it's "Only black" exterior, next you had limited versatility on it's pick up bed. If someone wants a "trunk" that large, they would buy a Town Car, or Navi. Then the exterior wood-look stickers, surely didn't appeal to me. And lack of 4wd. They stripped the vehicle of what a truck should be... Versatile !
I would think, if they would have gone with just doing a 4dr version, of the F-150 (Supercrew), have 4WD as an option, and throw in some toys not available on the F-150, they would have done much better. For those who went ga-ga over the pcik-up bed set up, should make that an optional item.
At least not much was lost (just face) from this mistake. Considering the vehicle is really an F-150 with a Navi grill, the lose on investment wasn't much.
Now in regards to the Mariner, It surely won't be THAT strict of a niche vehicle. The Blackwood focused too narrowly on a specific customer, one which didn't answer the call. Whereas the Mariner will feed a much broader niche.... the "I want a Ford, but tired of the same look" niche...
"The Marauder project is to test a few things out (which we will see in the future). It's a niche product and sales are as they expected, and they are making money off of it."
However, on page 34 of the May 2003 issue of Car and Driver:
"Mercury estimated it would sell 12,000 to 18,000 Marauders in 2002. Instead, this muscle car turned out to be anemic- just 2910 of them were sold, and that was with a $3000 cash back deal. Do you think people found out a V6 Accord is quicker?"
What? Is Car and Driver just flat out lying? If they arent, how is Ford making money selling 2910 examples during the Marauders 6 month sales period in 2002?
Since this is a Mariner board:
Car and Driver, p 28, July 2003
"All right, we're kind of stretching on this one, but then, so is Mercury. The Mariner is just a gussied up Ford Escape that won't go on sale until Fall 2004 as a 2005 model. What exactly is taking Mercury so long to get it out is a mystery. We include it in this coverage because it looks pretty good for a small ute all dressed up in Mountaineer-like garb. The interior, with sassy satin aluminum trim, actually kind of upscale- for a Ford escape."
~alpha
The consumer who wants a Marauder, really WANTS a Marauder. They will not cross shop and buy an Accord. Granted, if the person just wanted simple "speed", they would buy a Mustang, or WRX, etc. Numerous other cars can be had, at more affordable prices if speed were the case. My realistic sales numbers for this vehicle is pegged at 8000. A manufacturer can state they which to sell 100,000, but manufacturer's are becoming very optimistic. GM being one of the biggest optimistics.
The Marauder is about RWD, V8, muscle sedan power on body on frame construction. Trying to hark back to a past where the Impala once played. Unfortunatly it's not executed as I wish it were. There's numerous things I dislike about the vehicle, and the overall results. Personally, I believe Ford should use the 4.6L DOHC engine, and place it in the Town Car and give that car some dignity for the price it's commanding. Hmmm maybe this is what the Marauder is testing.....
Any which way, even if sales are bad, the vehicle makes money. Just think that engine used to be used on the Mustang Cobra, Continental, Mark8. Those factories need to be kept up and running, so using the engine on a Grand Marquis, giving bigger wheels, and some part upgrades, will not break the bank.
The Mariner is taking "long" (depends how we view it) because originally the car should NOT have been mentioned as early as it did. But to keep the auto-journalists happy, and all these wallstreet analysts from downgrading Ford stock, Ford was pressured into releasing such information, earlier than expected. To prove to people, that there's a transformation going on.
As for the Mariner project, the vehicle will use a 2.3L I-4, which is currently in use in the Mazda6i and Ford Ranger. That engine is already being phased into the Focus Zx3 Power Premium coupe for Mass., CA. and NY. Making 148HP and 152 TQ. That engine will be phased in to most of the Focus models next year (2004). But retooling the factories to build this engine, will take time.
You can't stop 2-4 engine factories all at the same time, to retool for one engine configuration. So being the Focus will receive that engine first, the Mariner will need to wait it's turn. Which is why we must wait "that long" for the Mariner. The Escape will receive the 2.3L I-4, before the Mariner as well.
Why do the Focus and Escape get special treatment? They are heavy seller's, they need the attention or they get rediculed by auto journalists. Why can the Mariner wait? Because it's a new product for Mercury, how can they complain, whine, over something that's not sitting in their dealership yet.
Remember, you and I know what's going on in the marketplace because we are educated about these topics. To regular Tom,Dick and Harry, they might have no idea and will just buy what they see at the dealership AT that time, without any knowledge of what's to come in the future. The only downside is knowing, waiting, and anticipating.
Do you know for how long I've been waiting for the 500/Montego project to finally debut. Do you understand how I've had to wait 4 DAMNED years to see it's final results? Let alone, waiting to see people's reaction towards that project. Talk about irony !! After the 500/Montego debut, then the Futura will be the next one I'll be anticipating for. And it has only just begun...
I thought I would never be looking at a Mercury, but the upcoming models look sharp. Now, if only Ford could brand it as a sophisticated performance brand - with power and suspensions that a Ford may not get. Ford better not let this Mercury revival go down the drain in a few years. I think there could be some untapped potential in Mercury that a Ford, Lincoln, or even Mazda just won't have.
1) I wish somebody at Ford would SERIOUSLY make over the Mercury brand into something special. Warmed-over Fords just ain't gonna make it.
2) If you're just gonna warm over the Fords, why bother unless you're going to give them something unique/distinctive to hang their hats on.
3) Badge engineering at it's worst I think is the Taurus/Sable combo and the Contour/Mystique.
4) Platform sharing at it's best: Lincoln LS and Jaguar S-Type. Honda Passport and Acura MDX. This is the kind of thing that needs to be done. Tweaking the grille and tailights to me is a total waste of time and effort.
5) The Mountaineer? Closer to badge engineering than platform sharing but a start.
6) Mariner? I've just seen the pix, but it looks like a better differentiation - looks upscale where the Escape looks cheap. A reasonable job, but that's just based on 3 pix.
7) Marauder? Someone said Accord V6 is faster? In what respect? MM does 0-60 in under 6.5 doesn't it? Accord with that #? I doubt it. Please point me to pages showing this info if you've got it. MM was a great idea. Just what I've been saying - something to distinguish Mercury from Ford. Yet the execution left much to be desired. Using the Crown Vic rear end? Bad. Using 'after-market' guages - Mickey Mouse. 4.6L? Well, I had a Mark8 with the 270hp version of this V8 and the thing was a rocketship. Great/smooth engine. Lack of low-end torque a problem? Yeah, I guess, but wouldn't be that big a deal for me. Black only? Big problem. That went out with the Model T I thought. I saw a blue MM yesterday at dealer. Had a lt grey interior. It looked really sweet.
8) Mercury brand overall? Who the h decided in the 80s with the intro of the Sable that Mercury was a car for women??? I noticed right away back then that they were marketing it to women, and thus assuredly alienating some men. This is the brand that James Dean drove? That had the Marauder, the Cyclone, the Eliminator ... in the 60's/70's??? Why market-out 1/2 the population? And they're STILL doing it today. Witness comments above in this topic about Mountaineer being designed so your dress wont get caught? Puh-lease. And the Mtneer does NOT offer a 4WD system, only the AWD, which is pretty much useless for anything other than driving in the rain. WHY? Why can I get a 4WD Explorer, but only an AWD Mountaineer? It makes me wonder if Merc can reinvent itself this way. Badge engineering? Marketing to women? And, a woman in charge of the division? (Please don't call me any names, I just don't see Merc regaining a lot of it's former machoness while being shepherded by a female, that's all.)
I could go on, but I better stop.
BTW, ANT14, thanks for a lot of great, and accurate from what I know from other sources, information.
Putting that name on a mini-van is blasphemy! They shoullda thunk up something new, or used the relatively unknown, forgettable 'Montego' name for the van and name the car the Monterey.
Car and Driver, July 2002 Mercury Marauder Road Test PAGE 89
0 to 60: 7.5 seconds
Quarter Mile: 15.5 sec @ 91 MPH
Street Start 5-60: 8.0
30-50 Top gear: 3.4 seconds
50-70 Top gear: 5.0 seconds
Car and Driver, October 2002, Accord EX-V6 Road Test PAGE 50
0 to 60: 7.0 seconds
Quarter Mile: 15.5 sec @ 92 MPH
Street Start 5-60: 7.2 seconds
30-50 Top gear: 4.0 seconds
50-70 Top gear: 4.1 seconds
Looks like the Accord has the big American muscle car beat in 4 of the 5 tests, and by quite a large margin on the Street Start, which is more representative of real world acceleration than the 0-60.
I have no idea where you saw "under 6.5 seconds" for the MM, but if you remember, I'd like to see those stats. Car and Driver seems to usually extract maximum performance from mainstream vehicles, as compared to Motor Trend, R&T, or Consumer Reports.
Are those pages good enough for you or would you like me to find another source?
~alpha
But because of costs, and Ford's transformation into using more european inspired performance, it wouldn't be feasable. As in, what makes those vehicles great, will be implemented into Ford's light up soon enough.
I also studied the idea of making Mercury's, higher performance versions of Ford's. At that time (before my time) I've heard that is what WAS a Mercury. But it overlaps with Ford's SVT program, so it wasn't possible. So Ford reverted back to what made most sense (economically) for them, and what has worked much better for them in the past....and that is badge engineering.
There's a few things that are being studied and tested with the Marauder project. Once that results of that comes thru, and Mercury tests a few other vehicles, then they will be able to carry out their next mission. Right now, their most important mission is to just GET vehicles, later on they can worry about the other details.
Elena Ford has done well in pushing more Mercury vehicles, it's just too early to tell being it has just begun.
Something that I abhor, is Ford's managment indecisions or concentration of carrying out a plan. Hence, everytime a new designer/stylist/leader/top personel enters a divison of Ford.... ALL these ideas are calculated, marketed, surveyed, re-calculated, meditated, etc. When finally they begin to move on with their plans, there's a management switch, and all those ideas are trashed. Then more time is spent on finding the "next mission".
Lincoln just suffered this issue about 2 year's ago, which places them in the position they are in now. Their brand mission has been tuned, and the steps have been taken. But originally Cadillac's idea to go upmarket, was really Lincoln's. But because of management issues, Jac Nasser's catastrophy, that was not to be. So Lincoln is now facing another mission...American Luxury vehicle, at affordable prices for american's. But it's confirmed, Lincoln WILL NOT go upmarket.
Are you sure the Passport and MDX share platforms? Maybe I've missed something, but the original Passport was a rebadged Isuzu Rodeo, and I was quite sure the MDX is built on the Odyssey minivan platform......
That being aside, you make a good point about rebadging..... It can be taken too far with too little value. Like your 80's Oldsmobuick.
Motor Trend (JULY 03) on the new (not really) Mariner:
"While this upscale-division Escape features the same cool, brushed aluminum-look front and rear fascia and interior details of the Mountaineer, there's enough Ford-like sheetmetal here to show the limitations of badge engineering".
~alpha
This doesn't distract from Mariner's simple mission. It's a styling sophisticated touch, alternative to the evergreen and common Escape.
I was thinking of the Honda Pilot but couldn't come up with the name. And I think you're right, both the MDX and the Pilot are loosely based on the Odyssey. All 3 different and well-done.
I think those 80's, 90's and still existing cars are also known as 'chevtiacoldsbuidilacs'
And although I own a Civic, I don't enjoy driving it or any Honda really. No fun. Haven't driven a Pilot, but I expect it to be as much fun as the Odyssey it's built on.
The Freelander is cute as a button, and I like them. But Rover has quality issues......
The Pilot is in another category (midsize, 8 capacity) and the direct competitor would not be an Escape/Mariner (small sized, seats 5). IN fact I wouldn't even place the Explorer itself as a direct competitor being it's truck-based.
But if there's $26K to spend, then there's various options. If space and people capacity is a premium, obviously someone would pick a lower trim level Pilot, or even Oddysey for that matter. If it weren't a priority, then they would have the CRV itself to choose from.
All manufacturer's price their vehicles in a way where at certain price points, you can have a stripped version of a larger vehicle, or a better equiped version of a lower vehicle. And this comparison is just that. But there's many out there who aren't in it for the size, or capacity, and just want a decently sized SUV, without the fuel milage or size penalties of the larger offerings.
Next Freelander, I believe will use a new platform shared with the future Focus. I have to check on that...
So if you look at Ford's platform family, you would think... "Hmmm then how about a Mazda6 based Escape"... Could be. But at the price point the Escape starts, base model's wouldn't make much money from using such a platform. Evidence is with the base Mazda6i starting around high $19K, we would need to push the Escape's pricepoint LOWER than that, hence, not economically correct considering an Escape's range is between $17-26K.
Anything lower than that platform, would be next generation Focus platform. Same one debuting under the next Volvo S40/V50, Mazda3 to be introduced this fall. And Volvo is planning a smaller sport ute off this same platform (Xc50). (This I can confirm)
Another reason not to use the Mazda6 platform for the Escape replacement is because Ford will introduce in 2006 as a 2007 model.... an SUV based on the Mazda6 platform, slotted between the Escape and Explorer, that will allow for 3 rows of seating. Think smaller Freestyle, at a lower pricepoint. (this I can confirm and is definate) This one is one of those "10 vehicles based of Mazda6 platform" announcement they made some months ago.
The platform/vehicle strategy for their upcoming vehicles is rather simple. You have their large 500 sedan, then platform alternative CUV the Freestyle. Then let's work one tier down, you have Mazda6 based Futura, CUV, and next minivan on the similar platform. Then bottom tier you have Focus, and platform alternative SUV Escape. And if Ford would like to go down another notch, they could introduce the european Fiesta with platform alternative SUV Fusion (S.A. Ecosport). Latter example depends on a few other factor's and nothing that can be confirmed at this time.
What COULD occur, is having a 5 passenger/2 row Mazda6 based Escape, with a lengthed 7/8 passenger/3 row Escape Extended within the same grouping. (like Chevy Trailblazer, EXT) BUT Escape uses a 4x4 system making it SUV like, whereas the Mazda6 based CUV will be AWD, taking away the "ute" part of the vehicle. I cannot yet confirmed if the next Escape is Focus based, but the details are there to state so, this project is still a bit off from being finalized.
Where this "CUV/SUV" slotted between the Escape and Explorer, is headed depends how it'll be named E=SUV like F=Car like. Which is evident in the Freestyle, it's more CUV because of it's platform, as well as it's name. It's a CLUE as to it's positioning. You can think of this new Ford CUV as a car based alternative to the Explorer, NOT that the Freestyle isn't already, but at a lower pricepoint. Think Pilot/Highlander as it's main competitors.
As for Freelander, Yes confirmed by the media actually, it's next generation Focus based.
~alpha
What exactly is this post pertaining to? I didn't comprehend it.
As to how they are positioned, Sport/standard/etc. depends on the persons point of view. As example, some might see the base I4 Passat as standard, while VW is general is perceived as standard offerings, yet others will argue their 4 year warranty (that will definatly be used) dignifies them as being luxury, yet some of their vehicles could be seen as sporty. That same dressed Passat W8 that they consider luxury, is really just a base $20 basic Passat with some dressing and flavor on it with a $35-40K ticket. So even in trim levels, that formula might not work.
Now as to what people "peceive" a brand, is all up to them. Personally I think the Lexus Es330 is a dressed up Camry and I would refuse to pay extra at that. YET other's believe beause it has a "L" in the hood, and their butt is licked at the dealership, that they are special. It's all perceived notions.
I'm still not sold on the future of Ford, but this is certainly a step in the right direction. I hope the F150 does well for the brand, but it seems a lofty goal that they want to sell 1 million units its first year out, given last years sold shy of 900,000.
It will be interesting to see which pickup- the F150, the Ram, or the TITAN is dynamically superior. I've been really impressed by the TITAN thus far (again, only paper impressions).
~alpha
(ANT, your email addy is not listed on your member profile- if you have a moment PLEASE drop me a line at either jmc415@hotmail.com or jcolacur@ethus.jnj.com- I will be graduating at year's end, and would like your take on careers in the automotive industry. I will not ask unnecessarily specific questions, as I recognize the limitations you may have in what can be said.)
Alpha, The interior you saw was probably the Lariat version. It has wood with aluminum, satin/nickel finishes. Although the wood will obviously be critisized for not being real. But for the lesser versions, other trims, configurations, touches are available. Ford is tripling it's investment costs on interiors.
Last year sales on the F150 I believe were 871,000, their highest was the previous year around 941,000. I doubt they can accomplish 1MIL this year, but next year when all factories switch over to the new F150, then It could happen.
So you want a career in the automotive industry, yikes... Which sector? :-)
~alpha
PS- I still the Mariner will tank. It will be way too far behind the mechanical/refinement 8 ball by the time it comes out, classy interior or not.
So at first, starting from that sector on, might be more beneficial, and your able to infultrate other sectors of the company, much more efficiently. Engineering degree might NOT hurt, but I would start that maybe as an after thought, IF I would see the manufacturer might benefit by me possessing that degree.
Also, once your inside a company, just ask around... Who has what.. Who had what to get where? Who slept with who, etc. And that way your able to direct your degree, to where it might be needed most.
The above pertains to the manufacturer itself. Outside that realm, the vehicles itself might have outside "help" by hiring marketing companies to handle their accounts. Sub-contracted work you might say. And then you have FAR outside involvement, like maybe marketing and sales, OF a supplier, THAT builds/develops parts, for certain automakers. Such as Delphi, Visteon. And you might be able to start there, Maybe as you gain experience, you might be hired even by some manufacturer's themselves, and have other opportunities, within the organization as well.
Overall it's very vast, from the manufacturer, to the suppliers, to the marketing, to the consumer survey groups, to far outsiders like auto-journalists, etc. Or extreme senarios, you could be lobbying Congress, to implement stricter gas, or emmissions. So there's much to take into consideration.
Just do a list of what you can, and cannot deal with. Personally, I'm NOT a people person. I rather hide in an office in the corner, than having to deal with people directly. Therefore, I would look at a senario that I do not deal with people head-on. I also lack patience and tolerance. Therefore projects that involve others, that might compromise my patience and tolerance, I rather just avoid. SO that's something I would take into consideration as well.
Corporate world in general, is all about hypocrisy, butt kissing, and connection. Some (like me) can act the part quite well and play very P.C., now it all depends how much your willing to deal with, before it infringes on your own personal beliefs.
Back to the Mariner: well, theres not much to say. Its a pretty Escape.
~alpha