Mazda - Does it have a good future in US?

scottdude · May 2003

Ok, I finally drove a Mazda 6 this weekend and no, I did not have a born again experience that made driving take on a whole new meaning for me.

But yes, I will say the car was fun to drive. In fact, I only had about a 10 minute test drive and afterwards as I was driving home in my sensible but unexciting Civic, I did have this yearning to "go again"... kind of how you feel after you've been on a roller coaster ride. I suppose if I had that feeling everyday with a 6, that could change the way I look at driving.

As I've been researching the 6 for the last few weeks, it's been amazing to me that almost every single consumer and professional review (and I've read probably more than a hundred by now) uses the word "fun" to describe driving this car. And now I'm using that word also.

I'm still not sure why I thought it was fun. The car handled very well and really zoomed along, just like the Mazda commercials say. I also liked some of the "little things" like the remote seat release in the trunk, storage bin over the red LED stereo display (also cool) and the controls on the steering wheel (including a radio mute button). All of these were nice touches.

The inside did not seem to be much bigger than my Civic, though. Not sure if that's a bad thing yet. I guess it added to the small sport car feel.

So will I buy one? I'm not sure yet. The salesman turned me off a little right at the start by saying "No discounts or special financing, these cars are hot right now!" Guess he didn't know about the 2.9% for 60 months financing deal from Mazda. Of course, by the end of the test drive he was all eager to make a deal.

I think I'll take another, longer test drive at another dealer. Would like to take it on a freeway and some bumby roads.

I'm also going to test drive a Camry, Accord and Altmia. Looked at the new Gran Prix too, but it seems about the same size or smaller than the 6 with a lot cheaper looking interior... but costing thousands more!

chikoo · May 2003

And yes. a test ride on the freeway is "guaranteed" to make you make a deal righaway, if you are really looking to buy one.

regfootball · May 2003

"Looked at the new Gran Prix too, but it seems about the same size or smaller than the 6 with a lot cheaper looking interior... but costing thousands more!"

yeah, but that doesn't seem to matter to the general faithful.

I wasn't blown away by the 6 on the test drive...but indeed is pleasing to drive, moreso than just about aby affordable car these days.

upsetter1 · May 2003

Grand Prix is bigger than Mazda6. Mazda6 is compact like GrandAm.

Mazda6 actually is hot seller, it sells better (and is better) than any other Japanese car, read this:

"The hottest-selling car in Europe? It might just be the Mazda6, which is driving a major turnaround for Ford's Japanese brand.

Mazda sold 34,869 units of the upper-medium model in the first four months of 2003. The Mazda6 went on sale almost a year ago.

Its success helped boost Mazda sales by more than 40 percent in the January to April period, to 70,184 units. Mazda sales were up nearly 57 percent in April alone, to 18,276 units.

Mazda's growth has been the single biggest reason Japanese carmakers captured 12.2 percent of the western European market in the first four months of the year, up from 11.1 percent in the same period last year. Still, Honda, Nissan, Toyota and Lexus, and Suzuki all grew sales last month.

The Mazda6 has also done well in Germany. The model accounts for more than half of Mazda sales there. It helped Mazda grab nearly 3 percent of the German market in the first four months of 2003, up from 1.85 percent in the same period last year.

The Mazda6 was narrowly beaten by the second Renault Megane in the European Car of the Year voting last year.

Europe's new-car sales were 1,219,605 units in April, down 6.5 percent. ACEA, the European automakers' association, blamed the war in Iraq and depressed economies.

Volkswagen-brand sales fell by 15.4 percent in April, to 120,713 units. "The month-to-month trend is deteriorating," said Jürgen Pieper, auto analyst at Metzler Bank in Frankfurt. "I would expect that pattern to continue at least until they bring out the new Golf in the autumn."

Kia's sales surged by nearly 70 percent in April, to 10,780 units, outselling brands such as Mitsubishi, Saab and Lancia. At 0.9 percent, the Korean brand had the same market share as Britain's MG Rover.

-- Reuters News Service contributed"

andre1969 · May 2003

I've sat in both. I can fit comfortably in the front seat of a Grand Prix. Not so with the 6. Back seat is pretty much useless to me in either one, though. The Grand Prix, however ,has a high beltline that kicks up in back, adding to an extra-claustrophobic feeling in back.

nippononly · May 2003

according to last week's Autoweek, sales here in the U.S. have disappointed Mazda so far...right now it is on target to sell 40-50K this year, when they had hoped for 100K? Compared to Europe's 34K+ figure, the U.S. number of 13K+ (through April) seems really low. Compared to Accord/Camry, that figure is about 10% or so...I wonder how that compares to 626 sales back in the late 90s.

What is the availability date for the Mazda3?

jaserb · May 2003

or does it seem like a Focus ZX3 with the Mazda6's 2.3 would be one heck of a fun little car? It might even be faster in a straight line than the SVT. I'm not much of a Focus fan, but a 3-4 year old Focus 2.3 for 6 grand or so would be awfully tempting a few years from now.

Is the 2.3 also going in the Mazda3?

-Jason

nippononly · May 2003

...the 4-cyl from the Mazda3 is going in the Focus, isn't it? It is actually the other way around...this new engine is what aided Ford in certifying this year's Focus as PZEV in California. At least, that is what I heard from the kind people here at Edmunds...

upsetter1 · May 2003

Ford offers two fun to drive vehicles in Europe - Mondeo and Mazda6. Mondeo may be a bigger car, but if Mazda6 fails in USA and Contour was failure too, is there any sence to bring Mondeo to USA.

mazfan1 · May 2003

Mazda told me that the Mazda3 suppose to come to the U.S. Fall/Winter of this year. I also heard that Mazda will use the existing Protege engines. I hope that dont happen! I dont care what the focus use.They can use something else. I just hope Mazda put the new 2.0 liter with I think 140h.p. on base trim (i) and the Mazda6's 2.3 liter 160h.p. in the (s) trim. If the focus get the 2.3 liter then the Mazda3 should to. I like the Mazda3 10 times better anyways.

wonderwall · June 2003

That Mazda 3 looks pretty sharp. I think if Americans weren't such lemmings the car would put a serious dent in the Civic/Corolla sales. I;ve been looking at cars (the Protege is one although i haven't test driven one yet)and the one feature every saleman touts is the damn cup holder even after I've mentioned handling, braking, etc. I think if Mazda can capitalize on handling and driving feel then they can take sales from Volkswagen. I test drove a Golf this weekend and it handled like the Cavalier I rented while out in Boulder, CO a couple of months back. Nothing at all like my 1997 Jetta, which IS fun to drive... But the Protege, either ES sedan or Protege 5 is at the top of my list. I'm waiting to test drive it until I get more serious.

fezo · June 2003

I saw a Protege wagon with a gold package on Saturday.

lemko · June 2003

...but weren't the Mazda 323, Ford Escort, and Mercury Tracer all the same car at one time? My girlfriend had a 1991 Mercury Tracer.

nippononly · June 2003

were always the same car. 323 and later protege were related to the Ford vehicles, with some significant component sharing.

a_l_hubcaps · June 2003

Well, if you want to get technical about it, the Escort and Tracer were not always the same car. The 1987-90 Tracer was Mazda-based and was not the same as the 1987-90 Escort. Both Escort and Tracer went onto the Mazda platform for 1991.

-Andrew L

boaz47 · June 2003

has a fine future as long as they have Ford keeps paying the bills. I was surprised that they managed to talk Ford into allowing then to produce another rotary car. But more power to them.

upsetter1 · June 2003

What does it mean that Ford owns 30% of Mazda ? Mazda seems to be perseieved as another Ford division. Yesterday in Autonews I heard that Mazda6 uses Duratec engine from its parent company. The key words are "parent company". I know that Mazda wasn't born by Ford, but still.

I always thought that Ford lacks "cool" division like Pontiac or Dodge. Ford brand is kind of boring Chevrolet, Mercury is kind of more refined Ford for folks who want something more distinctive. So now seems that Ford finally decided to make Mazda kind of Pontiac - pseudo sport "zoom-zoom" division to catch younger audience. It is evident that Mazda cannot compete with big guys like Toyota/Honda/Nissan or GM/Ford/DC.

On the other hand Mazda is not intergrated into Ford as Pontiac, still has some unique Mazda technologies. They even refused to built Mazda6 on Mondeo platform, kind of rebelion against "parents". Mondeo might be a better platform than Mazda6, but folks from Mazda wanted to keep some distance from Ford.

On the other hand if laws in Japan change, Ford will be forced to buy remaining 70% of Mazda. If it is changed in another direction Mazda will simply die. So not much choice for Mazda. It is still alive because of Ford.

But anyway wants Mazda or not - the tendency is unification, so basically it will become kind of Pontiac of Ford sooner or later. If you don't believe - all new NA Fords will be based on Mazda6 platform and will use Mazda I4 engines and Mazda already uses Ford's (or will use new GM/Ford design)transmissions and V6 Duratec.

maltb · June 2003

Ford doesn't want to own Mazda at this point. Maybe if the debt goes down and the profits go up, they'll change their mind.

nippononly · June 2003

whether it lives or dies it will be at the hand (nay, the whim!) of Ford.

The big launch of the 6 did not go so well - less sales early on than they were hoping for - but that story is not complete yet. Give it a few months.

In the meantime there is the new 3 as well. They clearly did something s-o-o-o-o right with the Pro5, they should focus on that and continue it. There is a lot of slough in the Mazda closet - time to dump the ones that do not say zoom zoom!

upsetter1 · June 2003

Launch was very successful on other markets. I even read that Mazda6 is considered as a car that saved Mazda (kind of Ford 49 or Taurus:). In Europe Mazda traditionally was leading Japanese brand. Now it is back with new Mazdas.
Toyota desparately tries to immitate VW with new Avensis (traditional rival of 626 aka Carina). But who wants immitation of Golf from Japan ? It is Europe after all.

About Ford buying only 30% I think that they spent just enough money to control the company. Why to take risk. I don't know European laws though.

chikoo · June 2003

but obviously the engineers at Mazda thought otherwise and decided to create a new platform altogether. This leads me to beleive that there must be something inherently wrong or antiquated with the mondeo platform that the engineers know about, but not the common man.

guest · June 2003

They are making profits just not in the US. As far as Ford saving Mazda they did have a part in putting Mazda into bankruptcy with the lousy Ford Tranny in the 626. Mazda's No.1 thing to do right now is straighten out those nutty option packages on the 6 out. They have lost sales because of the crazy set-up on the option packages in the NA market. Also other markets are more toward the handling aspect of cars(i.e. Europe.) The US Market doesn't care about how a car handles that much. They like horsepower thats why the Altima has done so well in the NA Market in part because of the horsepower factor.

As far as Mazda being Pontiac I don't think so. Both Pontiac and Mazda went different ways in the 90's: Mazda making their cars too bland and Pontiac overstyling their cars. Mazda and Pontiac both did have good sales in the late 80's/early 90's.

If Mazda just gets their act together they won't have to worry about Ford buying them. Just keep Ford Parts out of Mazda cars.

Remeber Ford has owned part of Mazda since the 70's so its nothing new.

One of the things Mazda has going for them is younger buyers. Mazda had no younger buyers in the mid to late 90's.

Mazda sales are down this year but I think they might repass Mitsu and Kia again. Mitsu sales are way down from the last couple of years. Kia really doesn't have anything exciting to offer except the 10 year warranty.

lemko · June 2003

...wasn't too impressive. The styling alone made a Camry look sexy. It reminds me of the Japanese version of the Ford Tempo.

guest · June 2003

was not a bad looking car at all. The 88-92 and 93-97 were alright looking cars. Buyers kind of went away from the 626 when it was redesigned in 97-98. The camry and 626 buyers were 2 totally different buyers.

maltb · June 2003

Remeber Ford has owned part of Mazda since the 70's so its nothing new.

Well, there is something new to it:
Ford's original investment in Mazda was one of necessity. Ford had land in Japan that was bought by eminent domain and needed to invest it somewhere in Japan (to avoid tax penalties) so they happened upon Mazda without a big intent. It wasn't until '96 that Ford saw Mazda as an opportunity to develop in Asia. With the controlling additional investment, they have leveraged themselves into a better position there. In the current situation, Ford is in a much better position to use Mazda resources without bearing liability. Smart move on their part.

nippononly · June 2003

repass Mitsu (currently in financial strife due to big losses at its financing arm), which I see losing market share in the years to come, but I don't think it will repass Kia.

Kia is getting set to expand its lineup rapidly, while still selling on price for most of its models...price sells, and Mazda won't be able to match those prices...its only hope is to pursue the consumers who want some zip from their purchase...

Question is, if the '3' and RX8 sales don't go the way Ford wants in the first year, what will its "freak-out response" be? A lot of Mazda's future rests on that.

I REALLY hope RX8 sells like gangbusters, or you can bet that is the last rotary-powered car we will see from them.

boaz47 · June 2003

as if investing companies are doing their best to buy just enough to control the companies they invest without taking on their debt. Renault has less that 50 percent of Nissan but they still control the direction of the company. All their stock is voting stock and they got control of finance. Ford has a position much like that with Mazda. It would be nice if GM had the same deal with Fiat but the Italians seem to be made of different stuff.

I agree the RX-8 may be the last chance to see a rotary in the US. It shows persistence on the part of Mazda because they didn't give up on rotary design and at last talked Ford into giving it another try. I also found the P-5 to be a step in the right direction. I haven't driven a 6 yet but so far it sounds like a great car.

upsetter1 · June 2003

I drove both (older) 626 and Carina and 626 had better handling and was more stylish. Both cars were very reliable. AT wasn't issue, in all other world only rich drive cars with AT. So there were no issues with transmission. The problem was that Mazda had aging car and made horroble redesign. When I saw new 626 it turned me away from Mazda immidiately and I never considered Mazda since then.

GM has very bad reputation, but if new GrandAm will look similar to concept shown in Detroit and based on new Vectra platform with sport tuning and good engine it may be a big hit. Will GM do it that way or will do it usually wrong we will see. I know its hard to believe that GM can do anything right, but they did exciting cars cars back in 60s. On the other hand americans like bland cars, you can do nothing about it.

guest · June 2003

I think styling is in the eye's of the beholder myself. I wouldn't want anything Pontiac made from 1992-1999 because it looks too overstyled.

I thought the early to mid 90's Toyota's were pretty boring. I thought last generation I saw an improvement in styling now with the latest they are going in step back in styling.

Keep in mind Mercedes, BMW, and VW sell well. I don't think the Passat is a boring looking car.

I think Acura's have a nice look to them. A little bland yes but still have a nice look to them.

Cadillac has managed to sell in your face styling cars and turn themselves around so has Nissan with "sporty looking cars".

I think Americans if offered will buy "sporty cars".

Ok on the subject of Kia: everything they have is based on a Hyundai platform and is basically a watered down Hyundai. They only thing they have the Optima. I wouldn't buy a Sedona. Spectra and Sephia are nothing great. I think Mazda will repass them.

About Mitsu they need a new designer. I think Chrysler is having too much input into Mitsu exterior designs. Mitsu on the new Galant really dropped the ball. I don't think buyers will come focking like they did in 98-99 when the last generation Galant came out.

upsetter1 · June 2003

I don't think that new Mitsu design does anything to do with Chrysler. Chrysler is one of few companies making stylish cars. With new direction Mitsu going to be not just boring, but ugly. I din't buy Mitsu because of low quality, but they at least looked good so I could consider one. But now there is no sence even to consider Mitsu because both quality and looks are bad. So only way to attract (younger) buyers is 0% 0% 0%, but will they like new style or will (and I think already did) choose cool Mazda.

Kia and Hunday are fast growing and they are taking place traditionally belonged to American cars. Those who want to buy more car for less money - the quality usually atributed to American cars, are buying Korean cars also because of good warranty (not trasferable though). So Japanese from one side and Koreans from another are just squeezing big three out of business.

Yeah speed is increasing on freeway so modern cars need better handling to be safe. Drivers need to be better educated and trained and speed limit needs to be increased to 80-85 mph on freeway (at least on the fast lane). Its 21 century.

Hey I heard in France they have something like 85 mph and it is a small country where people don't hurry !

regfootball · June 2003

I would be fine with Kia and Hyundai just being GONE from the US.

vcjumper · June 2003

It will be tough to thrive without making vehicles sized for American families. They can certainly stay alive though. SINK, DINK market is there to fight over with VW. Tribute and MPV will keep plugging away I guess.

maltb · June 2003

thrive without making vehicles sized for American families.

Are we talking head count or waist size? :-)

guest · June 2003

I know Chrysler does make stylish cars but I think there is too much of their influence in Mitsu's styling of late.

I think Mitsu's quality has gone up in the past 5 years.

I like Hyundai a little bit. The Elantra and Tibiron are nice looking cars.

Kia I wouldn't miss them.

vcjumper · June 2003

Are we talking head count or waist size? :-)
I read the WRX STi is not getting the same sport seats that the Canadian and other markets will get because they are too confining.

upsetter1 · June 2003

I think they decided that they cannot compete in family car segment. Outside of US nobody buys American style midsize cars, even Camry, they cannot sell any Camries or Tauruses or even Accords in Europe (the only available first world market other than USA).

Mazda6 is a typical family midsize car in Europe that fits well to higher speed limits and better handling required on twisty Europeans road. To make a special family car only for America doesn't make much sence because Ford already covers that segment and competition is too tough with huge incentives.

I think it was right decision to keep Mazda as a cool division for younger buyers. Ford will make bigger family cars based on Mazda6 anyway.

I hope that new Stratus will have better style than Galant. But both of them have issues with quality, so it will take time to persuade buyers that now it is okey to seriously consider DC. Man, my boss has 1989 Celica and new Mercedes. He loves superreliable (and fun to drive) Celica and hates Mercedes because of quality issues. He even told me that will never consider Mercedes again, only Lexus for that matter. Can DaimlerBenz really be helpful with quality issues?

andre1969 · June 2003

isn't necessarily that Americans are too fat, but too tall, too! I've seen it mentioned in several different sources that Subarus, even the bigger Legacy models, just aren't designed for anybody over, say, 5'11"-6' tall. From my experience, neither is the Mazda6.

guest · June 2003

I'm 5 foot 6 so I wouldn't have a problem driving a car like that. As for Ford making cars based on Mazda 6 thats a different audience so I don't think its going to hurt Mazda really in terms of sales for the 6.

As far as DC products are concerned(Chrysler and Mercedes) Chrysler has gottten a lot better with that. Mercedes quality has seem to go downhill ever since the M-Class in what was it 1997 or 1998? I think Mercedes is making too many new products at once. I have heard representatives of dealers and representatives of Mercedes have had meetings about these quality issue's to straighten these quality issue's out.

gotenks243 · June 2003

The 6 does have great touches for taller *drivers*. The length the wheel telescopes is above even that of a German car. With the wheel telescoped and tilted as far out as possible, a long-legged 6'1"er like me can actually let the clutch all the way out without their leg bumping the wheel. In most other cars, I have to tilt my left leg out away from the wheel to let the clutch out. About the only other car I can think of that I can do this in is the G35 Coupe. Protege and RSX come close. Whether the position I need to achieve this feat is optimal for wheel position, gauge reading, and outward visibility is another story, but it's a nice touch regardless.

Mike

gee35coupe · June 2003

Who does? Not quite the same market as the 3 is it? Totally different priorities when it comes to the stereo. Especially the kind in the 6/3 that has the readout separate from the headunit.

Not gonna go into the Honda vs. Mazda thing. I'm sorry to disappoint.

I'm not buying. Along with others. I'm offering ideas as to why.

magnetophone · June 2003

It's a shame the 6 doesn't sell well here. It is a superior car to its competition in most ways.

wonderwall · June 2003

My mother just bought a 6. It's a very nice car. My wife and I are both very jealous. She bought a standard 6 with the automatic transmission and 4 cylinder and no real options other than alloy wheels. I was really impressed at how sharp the handling is. I drive a 97 Jetta and have driven BMWs and so on for the heck of it on a couple of occasions when i had the chance. The 6 is very Germanic to me in it's driving style. That's probably one of it's downfalls to many people. It's fun to drive but not nearly as cushy as a comparable Camcord.

guest · June 2003

It sells pretty well in New Jersey than in other places in the US. I have seen like 20 of them so far. The people on this board from other parts of the US have seen about 2-7 6's so far I would say on average.

bottgers · June 2003

With build quality on par with, or at least nipping at the heels of Honda and Toyota, and style surpassing both, I don't see how Mazda can have anything but a stong future here in the states.

the_big_h · June 2003

in regions where Mazda dealers are plenty (read: on the 2 coasts and around major metropolitan areas)

not as well in the 'heartland' (like Iowa or something, lol)

grbeck · June 2003

It's a shame that the 6 isn't selling better...I've seen a grand total of one on the roads around Harrisburg.

We have two Mazda dealers in the area. Plus, drivers around here do buy their share of vehicles with foreign nameplates. I don't know what is holding this car back.

bottgers · June 2003

I think the 6 just needs some more exposure to the market. It's still a relatively new model and a lot people don't even know about it yet. Give it 6 more months to a year, and this thing will start selling like hot cakes. I'm still waiting for the MPV we ordered to get here. Can't wait! Zoom zoom!

guest · June 2003

need to improve customer service. I feel like Mazda management must step up to the plate and make Mazda's dealer unit across the US good at customer serice. I have heard of alot bad Mazda dealers that have terrible customer service. I feel like since Mazda doesn't have a luxury brand unit like the rest of ther Japanese Counterparts do(Honda has Acura, Toyota has Lexus, and Nissan has Infinti) Mazda could offer Saturn like customer service and win customers that way. The troubled thing is Mazda dealers are aligned with alot of other makes at their dealerships across the US. I have heard some Mazda dealers have closed up shop across the US because they couldn't compete. As we all know Mazda dealers for the past year from what I have read on these boards have really rejected potential sales they could have had on the 6 all because Mazda dealers said they couldn't order 6's with specific option packages. Those were sales lost to mostly the Honda Accord, Acura TSx, and Saab 9-3. Mazda could not afford to lose sales to Honda out of all makes.

landru2 · June 2003

6?

Real catchy.

chikoo · June 2003

Mazda6, not just 6.

I prefer to call it MZ6

Mazda - Does it have a good future in US?

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