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Mazda - Does it have a good future in US?

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Comments

  • chikoochikoo Member Posts: 3,008
    of TRUCKS!!!
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Ford has always been in charge of trucks for the Ford and Mazda brands. The $64,000 question is, what will become of the next-gen XC90? Will it turn into a rebadged Freestyle? But that is a question for a different thread.

    Mazda being in charge of the mechanicals for Proteges and Escorts from 1990 on served both companies very well.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • boaz47boaz47 Member Posts: 2,747
    and their long term report on the RX-8 it doesn't look like there is a big future for the rotary. Fuel consumption is still a problem as is oil consumption. Autoweek liked the car but the problems are not corrected from the old RX and we all have read how Mazda had to beg ford to allow them to bring the Rx back. Mazda has to pray that if they decide to pack a rotary in the Miata, as some people have suggested they might, that they find a way to fix fluid consumption both inside and outside of the combustion chamber.
  • newcar31newcar31 Member Posts: 3,711
    "that they find a way to fix fluid consumption both inside and outside of the combustion chamber."

    What fluid is consumed outside of the combustion chamber? Oil and gas would be consumed inside of the combustion chamber. Does the RX8 use up a lot of windshield washer fluid too?
  • boaz47boaz47 Member Posts: 2,747
    Hopefully the oil isn't being burnt on purpose? oil is supposed to lubricate outside the combustion chamber. Unless it is a diesel and then some oil is expected to burn within the diesel fuel. If the oil is burning and not being lost to leakage or pressure blow by the problem is even more serious. Several cars today seem to have some kind of non combustion oil loss. Saturns come to mind as well as some Hyundais. But if the RX is burning oil the problem is not a mystery as Autoweek indicates. The mystery is solved by pulling a plug. It will also require plugs far more often. If it is blow by it never enters the combustion chamber but is pushed out from escaped pressure after the valves or seals. A rotary has the potential to seal quite well enough to keep oil out during intake but not well enough to prevent some hot gasses from escaping after combustion.
  • newcar31newcar31 Member Posts: 3,711
    "Several cars today seem to have some kind of non combustion oil loss...

    ...If it is blow by it never enters the combustion chamber but is pushed out from escaped pressure after the valves or seals."

    I'm not sure what you're getting at here.

    What kind of fluid "consumption" would occur outside of the combustion chamber? If the engine is low on oil, oil either leaks or is consumed (burned in the combustion chamber). It doesn't just disappear.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    lubricates the apex seals in the Mazda rotary, and as the seals wear, the oil consumption can become excessive. And it is more than one might expect in a non-rotary engine even when new. Autoweek went through several quarts, right? When I had my RX-7, I kept a case of oil in the back.

    The gas mileage they are getting is truly dismal, more of a standout than the oil consumption. They are at 15.9 in mixed driving, with individual tanks falling as low as 13. That is awful by my standards, and is 20% less than their long-term 350Z managed. (which has a lot more torque and more power too). But they mention there is nothing like a rotary for fun driving, and I agree. The way it winds out is unlike anything else. As long as you have got the money for gas and a good oil connection! :-P

    so, yes, boaz, a small amount of oil IS being burnt on purpose. And it doesn't have valves, does it?

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • boaz47boaz47 Member Posts: 2,747
    not valves like we see on a traditional engine I agree. The theory is more like what you get from a two stroke. Not the same I know but it seems that it is a flaw in the design that they have not solved, along with fuel consumption in excess of engines of similar size. Oil loss outside of the combustion chamber is caused when pressure passes through the valves, or in the case of a rotary the seals to the lubricated parts of the engine. In the case of a non rotary the oil in the valve cover can be forced passed the PCV valve or the breather. If you look at the breather hose on many new cars you will notice more oil build up that on most of the other hoses. This is only conjecture on my part but if a car is burning a quart of oil between changes and the plugs are not getting fouled the oil isn't being burnt in the combustion chamber. If it were the plugs would foul. So there would have to be blow by. In the Rotary the seals can be worn enough to allow blow by and still good enough not to allow oil to be sucked into the combustion chamber. If as Autoweek says they were adding more than a Quart between oil changes, sometime a lot more than a quart, then the oil must not be being burned because they didn't indicate the car was a smoker or that performance suffered much.

    Whatever the cause the oil consumption and fuel mileage shows the new rotary has not solved the problem that was one of the major drawbacks of the old rotary. I still like the concept because of the decreased weight. But I hardly believe people want to carry sever quarts of oil in their cars to add evey few gas fill ups do you? If that problem is not solved Ford may require Mazda to pull the rotary, again. Or do you consider the results reported by Autoweek acceptable? My opinion is that it is not.
  • the_big_hthe_big_h Member Posts: 1,583
    oil consumption is normal in rotary engine, as it is INJECTED INTO the combustion chamber to provide lubrication and seal. as such, it is burned with the air/fuel mixture during combustion. i really don't see a problem with this as long as people are educated in why it does what it does.

    as for fuel consumption, well, the latest ECU reflash for the RX-8 seems to be improving the gas mileage across the board (both highway and local driving), so the engine is a major improvement over the previous rotary engines, it's just that Mazda engineers are still working out the kinks in the software/electronics to maximize its potential.

    regardless of these 2 'issues' (i call them quirks to an unique engine), Autoweek does praise the RX-8 in its fun-to-drive quotient and all the intangibles that make a car great. Overall that long term update is a positive one :-)
  • boaz47boaz47 Member Posts: 2,747
    But then if burning oil is normal in a Rotary one has to wonder why Autoweek bothered to complain? Also one must ask how that effects emmisions? I used to ride a two stroke street bike. I believe the 500 Kawasaki, the 750 Kawasaki and the owc30 Yamaha race bikes were way ahead of their time. But they used oil in the combustion chamber and that made them a minus on the street. In fact two strokes are better for power to weight but use fuel like a rotary as well. For that reason they are being phased out of water craft on most any lake in our state. So if rotary engines inject oil into the combustion chamber aren't they by definition, Dirty engines?

    No one can say the RX isn't a fun car. A Cobra with a 427 would be a fun car as well. But to get better fuel mileage and have to factor in oil mileage doesn't bode well for the long term success of the rotary in my opinion. To use more gas than the faster more powerful 350 nissan or the XC90 doesn't show much improvement over the old Very fast twin turbo RX-7. The question I have to ask is this, is the RX-8 a better car than the old RX-7? At this fuel mileage and this reported oil consumption I have to wonder. It is a better price I agree but it sure wouldn't make me jump ship to get one. You have every right to call it a quirk. I call it a flaw you can drive a 350 through. I think the Corvette and the SSR get that kind of fuel mileage.

    I am glad they brought back the RX I am just sad that they didn't live up to the press of fixing the problems of the rotary fuel and oil usage.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    "The question I have to ask is this, is the RX-8 a better car than the old RX-7?"

    Well, I do believe that the overall car is much better than the old one - $10K cheaper than the old turbo for the same performance, and a back seat people can use occasionally if you are into that sort of thing...

    The looks of the '93 were better though. The issue with the engine consuming oil and gas is offset by the engine's compact size, low weight, and ability to slot in behind the front axle - this car has great weight distribution. And winding that rotary out to 9000 rpm must be pure nirvana, I am sure.

    Mileage is not out of this world low, either. Their long-term Z was getting 18 overall for them, with their typical heavy footed driving style. And of course, the Z was going through a set of tires every 18K miles with the suspension/alignment issues the Z has right now. Now, do I want to spend $40 every 18K miles on oil, or do I want to spend $600 in the same period of time buying tires?

    A Cobra will smoke this car, but will cost more than $10K more and have a punishing ride as a reward for your money. The Mustang GT will be quicker off the line for the same money, but will be outhandled and outaccelerated by the RX in every other test you might want to put on.

    It is a shame that all the hype that Mazda put out about this new rotary consuming less oil and improving fuel economy was just that - hype. But it is still a great car that can be tons of fun for a good price, and is totally unique into the bargain. It is not dead yet. Didn't I hear that its sales had surpassed the Z's, at least for a single month or something?

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • newcar31newcar31 Member Posts: 3,711
    "This is only conjecture on my part but if a car is burning a quart of oil between changes and the plugs are not getting fouled the oil isn't being burnt in the combustion chamber."

    If the oil is being burnt, it's going through the combustion chamber.

    Like I said before, if the car is low on oil, it either leaked out, or went out the tailpipe.
  • audia8qaudia8q Member Posts: 3,138
    Here is mazda's near future plans

    The Miata Ibuki design has been dropped for a new design...the new design looks like the current car with the nose off the RX-8. I have a picture if you email me....No rotary. 2006.

    The RX8 will be offered as a 2 door coupe and convertable for 2006-2007

    MX-Flexa has been approved for Europe and Asia, no decision for North America. If it comes to the NA market, it will be 2007 model year. Based on MZ3 platform.

    MPV..total redesign for 2007 model year. Will be MZ6 based. AWD is under serious consideration. The platform will also be used for Ford Freestar and Merc. monteray redesigns.

    B-series.....total redesign for 2009 along witht he Ford Ranger

    Tribute goes to MZ6 platform for 2008 model year. total redesign planned for then.

    A premium sprot wagon is planned for 2007. It will be based on a stretched MZ6 platform. Will have a 3.5l V6 from ford. will be highest price point vehicle for Mazda, starting around $27K. This vehicle will be the size of the Honda Pilot and will offer third tow seating.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    if this is what we have to expect for Mazda in future: that every new segment it jumps into will first be occupied by a rebadged and slightly tweaked Ford (like Tribute), to be followed a few years on by a new model entirely designed by Mazda, which Ford will then use as the basis for all its future Ford, Mercury, (Lincoln?), and Volvo products in that segment...

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • the_big_hthe_big_h Member Posts: 1,583
    ... now that it has been cleaned up in emissions to meet Euro II standards (comparable to LEV II in US?). It is A LOT cleaner than any previous rotary cars were capable of.

    there IS a market for it, not nearly as big as say the midsize family sedan market (for reasons stated above), but it'll carve out it's own niche and stay in there as long as price is held under control :-)
  • jrosasmcjrosasmc Member Posts: 1,711
    Why in the world is Mazda (or Ford) delaying the redesign of the B-Series trucks for so long? People don't want to wait four more years for the new truck to come out.

    And besides, it'll be the longest-running Japanese-brand truck series ever, if it keeps this up.
  • tzoomertzoomer Member Posts: 18
    How are Mazda sales doing? Have Mazda6 sales improved?

    I haven't seen a newspaper ad in over 8 days from the Mazda dealer for my 3-county area, despite daily spreads from other dealers and weekly ones from Lexus, BMW, and even used car lots. The last one from my multi-brand Mazda dealer was a 1/8th page below the fold in the classified section. They also have no visible role in the community or at sporting events (whether billboards or Spec Miata racing). You'd think they'd be trying hard to make up for the loss of their core Oldsmobile franchise.

    The Mazda TV ad during the Sunday Olympics was pretty generic, didn't give a good view of any one car, just the lot of them zooming in a cloud of desert dust.

    Incidentally, re customer service: local after-sale Suburu customer service is superb (if they don't fix it right they make it right for free). But Suburu is the entry brand for an otherwise all-brand-German upscale dealer, so perhaps Suburu customers benefit from trickle-down service quality. I would guess the quality of customer service fundamentally depends on the dealer's standards rather than the brand; it's just that in out-state areas they can be few and far between if your local one is a lemon. I have no complaint about my Mazda dealer.
  • boaz47boaz47 Member Posts: 2,747
    Is doing pretty good. Outsells the Nissan Maxima, but then their sales are compromised because the Altama is a better deal if you want that size car. I have no idea how well the Mazda3 is doing. I also don't know what the yearly sales for the Rx is going to be.
  • carlikercarliker Member Posts: 285
    Mazda is supposedly doing pretty well. The Mazda 3, Mazda 6 (3 versions) and the RX-8 are raising sales higher than in several years. I like the fact that Mazda is giving it a good effort.
  • mazdax605mazdax605 Member Posts: 89
    Hey guys,

    I know this has been talked about before,but I have to chime in.The rotary engine by design burns oil.It always has,and probably always will.The amount that it burns is proportional to how much you use the loud pedal.Autoweek has been complaining about the oil consumption as well as the fuel mileage.These two things are linked.The more you step into it the more fuel you will burn,and the more oil will be burned.It is pretty simple.I have yet to look at the oil injection pump on my new RX-8,but i have rebuilt them on both my RX-7,and my rotary truck.I wish people would do some research on these things before they condemn them.They don't burn an excessive amount of oil if you drive them normal.It is just a fact of life with a rotary.You need to lubricate the apex seals,and the only way mazda has figured this out is with oil injection.It isn't a bad engine design,or poor engineering on Mazda's part.I have been getting 18-19 mpg with my new RX-8 in 90% city driving.Now granted i have yet to really open it up yet with it being so low on miles.I want to break in the engine right.Auto week should be ashamed of themselves,talking about too much oil being burned,and then not telling the regular joe car buyer that it is normal with this engine design.Rant off.

    Chris
  • boaz47boaz47 Member Posts: 2,747
    A very valid rant against Autoweek, except for one small thing. It was Mazda press releases that indicated they had the oil burning and gas useage fixed. A quart of oil between oil changes might not be excessive but Autoweek indicated that they were using considerably more than that. And not driving a sporty car spirited seems like a waste of a sporty car to me. If someone needs to question their ethics wouldn't it be the ones that advertised that oil usage and fuel consumption were addressed before they released the new Rotary? I still say, if a new engine is burning this much oil how much will it burn after 50K miles? The Major complaint against Rotary engines the last time Mazda made them was, fuel usage and oil consumption. Is either cured?
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  • mazdax605mazdax605 Member Posts: 89
    Valid rebutale boaz47,

    " still say, if a new engine is burning this much oil how much will it burn after 50K miles?"

    I would say it will burn the same amount no more or less.I have a 83 RX-7 with close to 200k on it and it burns the same oil as it has always burned.The thing is it is all proportional like I said.I bet the new RX-8 has some sort of electronics like the 2nd and 3rd generation RX-7's have to determine how much oil is injected.But I know for a fact on my carberated rotaries there is an actuator rod on the carb linkage that varies a proportioning valve on the oil injection pump.So therefore the more fuel you give it the more oil you give it.It will only burn as much oil as you want it to.And as far as fuel mileage goes I would say mazda has fixed it for the most part.There are plenty of people out there getting good mileage with these cars,and not babying them.The other thing about the rotary is that it is sorta mis labeled as far as displacement is concerned.It is often called a 2.5 or 2.6 litre engine in other countries due to how the displacement is measured.The thing about this car is people buy them thinking "oh well it has a back seat and a small engine, it must get great mileage".Well it is a sports car in disguise.Not the fastest sports car out there but a sports car non the less.The biggest thing mazda fixed with these new engines is the emissions problems.Ask any one who owns an older rotary that lives in a state that mandates emissions testing and they will tell you they have had problems I am sure.We all have to remember that the rotary in many ways is still in it's infancy.The piston engine has had far more development time,and Mazda is going it alone.I think Mazda has done a great job with the new engine,and if they keep it up we will all be singing the praises(even auto week)about the hydrogen rotary.I am sorry for another rant.I don't mean to piss anyone off.I love the rotary,and hate it when these magazines slam it with out even knowing how it works.

    Chris
  • jrosasmcjrosasmc Member Posts: 1,711
    Wow, you have a rotary pickup? What year is it?
  • mdaffronmdaffron Member Posts: 4,421
    ... that spawned this discussion last year.

    "Mazda has made alot of profits in Europe of late but in the US is facing declining popularity. Sales have been down for the past year ..."

    Well, so far this year, sales are up 18 percent.

    I think Mazda DOES have a good future here.

    End of topic. Next?

    :D
  • logic1logic1 Member Posts: 2,433
    Mazda sales are up primarily due to the popularity of the Mazda6 and the Mazda3.

    Mazda will drop the Tribute. MPV sales are slow. Miata sales are down. The RX8 did not set the market on fire the way Mazda hoped.

    Even the Mazda6 sales are problematic. Visit the Hertz website and look for a mid-size sedan rental. Hertz describes the car you will get as being a Mazda6 or similiar.

    Next year, Ford will launch the Fusion, which the market knows is a Mazda6 clone. It probably will not be quite as sporty, but the Ford dealers are more convenient to most consumers. Ford dealers also are more willing to deal.

    That leaves the Mazda3 as the primary torch bearer, unless Mazda can shake things up for the better elsewhere.

    The debate continues.
  • logic1logic1 Member Posts: 2,433
    Mazda sales are up primarily due to the popularity of the Mazda6 and the Mazda3.

    Mazda will drop the Tribute. MPV sales are slow. Miata sales are down. The RX8 did not set the market on fire the way Mazda hoped.

    Even the Mazda6 sales are problematic. Visit the Hertz website and look for a mid-size sedan rental. Hertz describes the car you will get as being a Mazda6 or similiar.

    Next year, Ford will launch the Fusion, which the market knows is a Mazda6 clone. It probably will not be quite as sporty, but there Ford dealers are more convenient to most consumers. Ford dealers also are more willing to deal.

    That leads the Mazda3 as the primary torch bearer, unless Mazda can shake things up for the better elsewhere.

    The debate continues.
  • mdaffronmdaffron Member Posts: 4,421
    The 3 and the 6 have raised Mazda's sales farther than any other attempt they've made in the last decade. It doesn't matter where everyone else is; their sales are up and that's what's important to them. If they survived in this country through the last, slack half of the 1990s, then they can surely survive when sales are up by nearly a fifth, no? What does it matter what Ford comes out with? Do you think the general public knows or cares that the Fusion and the Mazda6 are related? People who buy 6s buy them because they like them. People who will buy Fusions will buy those because they like them. I don't think there'll be much "winning over" of potential 6 buyers by the Fusion, since those who know will want the Mazda, and those who don't know won't care.

    And Mazda's dropping the Trib to come out with another offering (or two, as I hear). The 3 and the 6, along with the RX-8, are only the first waves of their comeback. Wait and see what else rolls out of Hiroshima in the coming months.

    Meade
  • logic1logic1 Member Posts: 2,433
    Mazda6 numbers are where they are because of Hertz. What consumer following the car will have will be compromised when the Fusion becomes available.

    The market is not stupid. Most anyone looking to buy a 20k+ sedan will know that the Mazda6 and Fusion are basically the same vehicle, just as the market knows the Tribute and the Escape are the same vehicle.

    The Tribute may or may not have looked slightly better than the Escape depending upon ones esthetics. This was not enough to bring sufficient traffic to the Tribute.

    The Mazda6 may offer one or two things, such as the manumatic than will be available on the Fusion. Although, even there I wonder. Ford is going to push the Fusion pretty hard. Ford may even add a few things to the Fusion that Mazda does not offer.

    That leaves the 3. I have not seen any concrete future offerings from Mazda. I do not know what Mazda intends to do to win former Miata owners such as myself back.
  • mdaffronmdaffron Member Posts: 4,421
    As a subcompact competitor, maybe?

    http://www.mazda.com/publicity/release/200406/0628e.html

    Sharp car! (Almost "Mini"-esque, I dare say)

    Meade
  • audia8qaudia8q Member Posts: 3,138
    ....Mazda sales are up primarily due to the popularity of the Mazda6 and the Mazda3.....

    no kidding. look at most carmakers. 80% of the sales come from 20% of the products. Nothing new here. Toyota didn't build the company of celica's they did it with Camry's...the same ones that can be found in rental fleets.

    ....Mazda will drop the Tribute....

    Wrong. The Tribute isnt going anywhere and its also scheduled for a redesign for the 2007-2008 model year....They are planning on adding a sport wagon to the line up though.

    ...Miata sales are down...

    After 12-13 years with only one redesign and the award of best selling car in its class of all time, its no surprise things are slowing down a little...but the MiataSpeed has enhanced the lines profitability and its also why there is a new redesign for next year. Toyota has done so poorly with the Miata's competator, the MR2, they have dropped it from the future line up.

    ..."Even the Mazda6 sales are problematic"...

    The Mazda6 keeps hitting sales objectives. So they are doing something right.

    ...Visit the Hertz website and look for a mid-size sedan rental. Hertz describes the car you will get as being a Mazda6 or similiar...

    So what...three weeks ago I was in Florida and my rental car was a Toyota. Does that mean they are doing poorly?
    Not exactly shocking to find Ford company product in a Ford owned company like Hertz.

    ..."Next year, Ford will launch the Fusion, which the market knows is a Mazda6 clone..."

    have you seen the Fusion? it looks nothing like the Mazda6. People buy cars not platforms.

    ..."Ford dealers are more convenient to most consumers..."

    I agree...4400 Ford dealers vs. 750 Mazda dealers. But having alot of dealers does not mean success...If that was the case there would only be Ford and chevy dealers.

    ..."Ford dealers also are more willing to deal.."

    What does that mean? Honda dealers arent willing to "deal" like a Ford dealer but they somehow manage to sell cars. Most people buy products not deals. The willingness to deal is directly tied to the marketplace and supply and demand...nothing else.

    ..."The market is not stupid"...

    Are you sure? Look at some of the stuff people buy.
  • logic1logic1 Member Posts: 2,433
    either in Sept. R&T or C&D that Mazda is dropping the Tribute.

    Toyota sells more than 400k Camrys. It sells a much lesser percentage of Camrys to rental fleets than Mazda sells Mazda6s. Hertz typically resells its cars when they get around 20k miles. That means in less than a year, I can buy the loaded Mazda6 I rented last weekend for half of what a new Mazda cost. And after my Mazda dealer experience, I can sure tell you I'ld rather buy a used 6 from Hertz than a new one off the dealership lot.

    I do not know the percentage of Mazda6s sold to Hertz, but there are a lot of them. If the number is over 5 or 10% (and I wager it is) that will present a challenge to new car sales.

    The Fusion and the Mazda6 will be the same except for cosmetic differences. People buy cars based on a lot of things. Convenient dealerships and better prices - both of which favor the Fusion over the Mazda6, are important factors among those things.

    Honda dealers sell Hondas, not Mazdas. End of story.

    Miata sales have not slowed down a little, they have fallen off a cliff. RX8 sales are nowhere near what Mazda hoped. Any new Miata will now have to compete with the Pontiac Solstice and whatever the Solstice cousin at Saturn will be called. I also think there is a good chance Daimler will bring the Smart Roadster here and make the little Dodge that showed well in the auto shows last year.

    Will have to see the sport wagon.

    From my perspective, Mazda's primary hope rests on the 3. It is doing well with the 3 right now. Remains to be seen how long this will last.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    is going to be a Freestyle clone, you watch. It will be a repeat of the 2001 MY with Escape/Tribute that year.

    Reports of the Trib's demise are overstated by the way. They have just restyled it and changed things a little to make it less "Ford" for the '05 MY, so it should carry on for at least another two years. I will be very curious to see what Ford does with the Escape after '07, and whether Trib continues to be an Escape clone after that. If Ford decides to build the next Escape on the Mazda3 platform (which is also used by the Ford Focus [European] and Volvo S40), it may be that Mazda gets to design its own Tribute more from the ground up than the current Ford clone.

    After the Z's initial sales spike, it is now selling at the same rate as the RX8, or so I have been led to believe by Motor Trend earlier this year in the "Sales Trends" report. Alas, the RX8's sales do not seem to be tracked by autosite.com. But if this is the case, then I think RX is doing OK.

    As for its oil consumption, a quart between oil changes is about what I used to get (maybe a little less than what I got) on my 100K '88 RX7. That was OK. Autoweek is reporting two, even three quarts of oil between oil changes, so that ain't that great. But I am not sure what is going on there. As for fuel economy, this car is a revver. But despite driving it like they stole it (by Autoweek's own admission) they are still getting about 16, which is only 2 points or 10% less than their long-term 350Z. Seems like it is far from great, but it is in the ballpark for cars in its range...

    Mazda did wind up dumping a lot of Mazda6's to the rental fleets last model year because they launched the car badly, but while this would typically be a bad thing, in Mazda's case it might have a silver lining in that lots more people got to experience the car. Given that Mazda is a relatively unknown, unthought-of brand and all...

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • logic1logic1 Member Posts: 2,433
    In a way, I wish GM had not gone with the Classic and instead sold the new Bu to the rentals. People would see it is a nice car.

    And the Mazda6 is also a nice car, by the way. It is notably smaller than the Accord/Camry and the G6. In the US this matters. I think it will not help sales.

    If the Mazda Sportwagon is a rebadged Freestyle, doesn't it run into the same problems as the Tribute?

    Finally, I have no pride of authorship on the article about the Tribute demise. I did not write the article. If it is wrong it is wrong. But it was in print.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    will probably get little inputs from Mazda in much the same way the Trib is not EXACTLY the same as the Escape - a couple extra hp, tighter suspension and steering, some minor cosmetic stuff (which to my eye made the Tribute look a lot better than the Escape, for instance).

    The real problem is that the Freestyle is a high-roofed car built on the Mazda6 platform, and the 3 and the 6 are relatively close in size, so if they continue Trib after that, will it and the Mazda version of the Freestyle steal sales from each other too much? That has to be the question on the minds of Ford product planners. Of course, Freestyle should be able to accomodate the much-vaunted third-row seat, which will make a big difference in terms of the people shopping it vs the Trib.

    And GOSH, I hope the Freestyle's launch goes better than the Escape's, what with stalling cars and something like a dozen recalls over two years.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • mdaffronmdaffron Member Posts: 4,421
    I guess they're going down the tubes, along with Lamborghini.

    Honestly pal, if you have half the production, you don't need as many plants, as many people on the payroll, as many dealerships, etc.

    Just because you sold less cars than the other guy doesn't mean you're going anywhere. The important thing is your bottom line and whether you're meeting your projections:

    http://www.mazda.com/publicity/release/200407/0730be.html

    Meade
  • logic1logic1 Member Posts: 2,433
    the difference between a Mazda6 and a Ferrari or a Lambroghini or even a BMW or Benz, is that the 6 sells in the low profit margin highly competitive mid-sized sedan market, while the exotics do not.

    Mazda will have made much less on every 6 it sells to Hertz than to the consumers, meaning profit targets will not be met, no matter what the sales are.
  • mdaffronmdaffron Member Posts: 4,421
    If your overhead is lower, you don't have to make as many of a product to generate your profit.

    Hertz or no, Mazda HAS met its profit targets for the 6. Didn't you read the links I provided?

    Meade
  • audia8qaudia8q Member Posts: 3,138
    we are wasting our time....logic is busy dealing in half truths and his versions of reality. when people toss bombs without any facts it makes an honest debate difficult.
  • logic1logic1 Member Posts: 2,433
    development costs for a mid-sized sedan are pretty much the same for a company that expects to sell 400k models and a company that sells only 100k.

    Mazda would not have developed the 6 were it not for the fact Ford had plans to make other cars on the platform.

    The question in this forum is whether Mazda has a future in the US. Your first post in this debate suggested there is no argument that it does not.

    My point is that if Mazda's volume vehicles are turning into fleet only, Ford may decide the next mid-sized car from its family of brands does not need to include a Mazda.

    Your link does not work. In any event, it is a publicity piece from a foreign manufacturer. It is impossible to tell from PR pieces how much domestic Ford or GM make on sales of any one model. I doubt there is any reliable publically available source for how much money Mazda makes on sales per Mazda6.

    Mazda is not a big profit maker for Ford. It has value as a product developer. Whether that value will continue to manifest itself with Mazda selling mass market vehicles in the US is still an open question, IMO.
  • logic1logic1 Member Posts: 2,433
    I am saying there are arguments possible. If you do not like the arguments, make a reasoned response.

    I disagree with you. Deal with it. Personal attacks are against the forum rules and do nothing to foward your position.

    For the record, when I review your post and my reply in what has been until now a frank and friendly debate, I do not see how you can say your post contained anything other than your version of reality. Certainly, I see no authority for any claim you make. But then, I did not expect to. We are car fans debating cars in an open forum.

    Debate has never meant everyone agreeing with the other's position. Except of course if you live in Mao's China or Stalin's Soviet Union.
  • newcar31newcar31 Member Posts: 3,711
    "Toyota sells more than 400k Camrys. It sells a much lesser percentage of Camrys to rental fleets than Mazda sells Mazda6s."

    "I do not know the percentage of Mazda6s sold to Hertz, but there are a lot of them."

    HUH?
  • logic1logic1 Member Posts: 2,433
    Hertz has a lot of Mazda6s on its lot. So many, that Hertz now refers to the Mazda6 as its default mid-size.

    Per autosite, Mazda sold 34,444 Mazda6s through June of this year. If it sold only 10k to Hertz, that would be almost 30% of its total sales.

    On the other hand, I believe Toyota limits its total sales to rental fleets to below 10% of total sales.

    Accordingly, even though Toyota may sell more cars to rental fleets overall, its percentage of lower profit sales is significantly smaller than Mazda with the 6.
  • mazdax605mazdax605 Member Posts: 89
    Hey jrosasmc I do have a rotary truck.It is a green 1974 model with factory AC,and the previous owner put a 5 speed in it.It has been lowered,and has a ported motor in it.I just need to sort out some carb issues I am having with it,but it hasn't stopped me from driving it.I love the little thing.if you want i can send you a link to pictures of it.

    Chris
  • npaladin2000npaladin2000 Member Posts: 593
    I just had a look at the Hertz website. When it considers a Ford Taurus "or similar" a "Full Size" car, there's very little room between that and a Focus, which Hertz markets as a "Compact." As a matter of fact, the ONLY thing that fits in between there in the entire Ford family (Lincoln, Mercury, Mazda, Volvo) size-wise is, in fact, the Mazda6. That slot used to be occupied by the Contour, but that's gone bye-bye.

    As for Hertz having a lot of them on their lot...well, Hertz has a lot of lots and I doubt all of them are saturated with Mazda6 models. The Hertz locations here sure aren't. Also, since Hertz is OWNED by Ford, it's hardly a surprise that they would have Mazdas, likely more of them than, say, Enterprise.

    I'd like to throw something out there that proves that Mazda not only has a future in the US, but a good one. People used to think that Mazda was just going to turn into another Ford reseller. But now Ford is basing several of their models on Mazda platforms (Ford wasn't planning on using the 6 platform, but they discovered it was so good they decided to). Now it looks as if Ford is re-selling Mazdas. Mazda's volume vehicles include the 3, which is practically selling itself right now (they recently added another production line for it), and the 6, which has proven to be such a good platform that Ford is now using it's platform as a base for models of its own. The Miata is up for redesign soon, and then it will likely take off like a bullet again. They're adding 2 more models to their already wide (wider than Subaru's, who are considered a success) lineup. Mazda does most of Ford's 4 cylinder engine development, and sells highly-tuned versions as it's own. Most of all, they've found a successful image for themselves and are sticking to it. Said image is endearing them to the largely untapped "tuner crowd" or at least those who aren't wedded to Civics with unpainted spoilers and a bunch of stickers (and they're even attracting some of them with the promise of REAL performance).

    Mazda is growing and is here to stay. Live with it. ;)
  • npaladin2000npaladin2000 Member Posts: 593
    ...on the Hertz website, when it says "Mazda6 or similar" for midsize car, they don't havee a Mazda6 pictured. That's a Mazda626, I believe...the previous generation model. ;) And likely the reason they're lising the Taurus as a "full size" is because it has a V6 engine. Comes standard with one in base form...that anemic Vulcan excuse for a V6 that has less horsepower than most 4 cylinder engines, like the one in the base Mazda6 :D
  • logic1logic1 Member Posts: 2,433
    A decent enough company, but not very profitable either for its parent company or for its partner, GM.

    Whether Ford intended to make the Fusion is debatable I suppose. But Ford always had international plans for the Mazda6 platform. It is incorrect to say that Ford latched onto the platform only after seeing the 6.

    Moroever, I the Mazda6 is primarily a rental car, and Ford can make Fusions for less money than Mazda can make Mazda6s, doesn't it stand to reason that Hetz would take Fusions over the 6? And if so, who buys the 6?

    When the new Miata finally launches, it will have competition from more sources and at a level it never had before. It is certainly worth debating whether Mazda can count the new Miata a success at this time.

    I've said all along the 3 is selling well now.
  • newcar31newcar31 Member Posts: 3,711
    "What don't you understand?"

    What I don't understand is how you can say that Mazda sells a higher percentage of cars to fleets than Toyota if you don't know the percentage of cars that Mazda sells to fleets.

    I'm not saying that Mazda doesn't sell more percentage wise, I'm just saying how do you know?
  • logic1logic1 Member Posts: 2,433
    The 626 was the Mazda 626. The Mazda6 is one word.
  • logic1logic1 Member Posts: 2,433
    But I said it appears quite likely Mazda sells a higher percentage of Mazda6s to Hertz than Toyota does Camrys to rentals.

    Do you have anything to contradict that?
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