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Chevy Uplander/Pontiac Montana SV6/Saturn Relay/Buick Terraza

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Comments

  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    the extra deep garage I have, the Odyssey would fit just barely in there with the front bumper sitting against the back wall and the liftgate sitting against the garage door.
  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    I don't know. Couldn't find the picture when I clicked on the link.
  • a_l_hubcapsa_l_hubcaps Member Posts: 518
    GM is building 2005 versions of the existing Venture and Montana for awhile before the new vans come out. The CSVs will probably not show up at dealers till the very end of the year (Nov/Dec).

    -Andrew L
  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    what's funny about this is that this discussion has less posts than the Future Odyssey discussion even though we know nothing about the next Odyssey on that discussion, and we have most of the facts about the GM vans on this board.
  • samnoesamnoe Member Posts: 731
    When people try to "guess" what will be in the future car, everybody is writing about their dreams. That's what the Odyssey forum is for. And besides big part of the discussion is if we need a smaller size van, and if we need a Acura minivan, and what about the Japanese van, etc.

    But the new GM minivans will mainly be unchanged, and everybody has seen the pics already, and said the likes and dislikes, now there is nothing to talk about anymore until after the first test drive.

    Andrew: You say that there will still be 2005 models the older version until Nov/Dec. My question is if the new versions will be called 2006 MY? (2006 in 2004 does not make sense?).
  • player4player4 Member Posts: 362
    You just said it "But the new GM minivans will mainly be unchanged" thats why this thread's got less posts because peeps are not interested in little dumb makeovers. adn no we aint dreaming i bet you everything o at least MOST of the stuff we "DREAMED" about is coming true!! But anyways this isnt about trashing other therads.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I'm just waiting for the $25,000 rebates. Then I'll buy one (for free). ;-)

    -juice
  • tamu2002tamu2002 Member Posts: 758
    I don't understand why GM decided to forgo this important safety feature while all its competetors offer it. Makes no sense to me. This could be a make or break factor for us. I also think they should make more features standard and simplify the options like Honda and Nissan do. Dodge/Chrysler is doing just that with their 05 vans.
  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    me too. I'm waiting for the $35,000 rebate so I can get the loaded model and still get some cash back.
  • tamu2002tamu2002 Member Posts: 758
    Maybe today I'm in a bad mood, but realize all people can't afford a $25k plus van. The domestic vans are not as fancy, they don't cost as much either. They suit a lof of folks' needs just fine.
  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    I know not everybody can afford a $30,000 van, or even a $25,000 one. That's why we have Odyssey LXs and Sienna CEs.
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    A Sienna CE 7 passenger with the very desirable Side Curtains/4 Wheel Discs/VSC/Power Mirrors/Cruise Conrol/Wiper De-Icer pkg (#3) stickers at $25,640, and carsdirect.com shows a selling price in NJ of $23,979 (or about $500 over invoice). Quite reasonable for the package that you get!

    ~alpha
  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    The Odyssey LX looks like it's also a nice bargain, but you don't get VSC, side curtain airbags or a CD player.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    You can get a deal on the Ody now, they know the new one is around the corner and sales are down this year a bit.

    So that puts pressure on the value shopping niche.

    -juice
  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    Edmunds finally put up a spy pic of the Ody, IMO, it looks pretty good.
  • player4player4 Member Posts: 362
    Yup, it sure does!!!!!
  • jeffshadowjeffshadow Member Posts: 13
    Well, now I've seen the new Buick advertising on television and guess what ? - they're showing a BLACK 2005 Terraza ("Buick - we're not just a CAR company anymore...!). Of course it's just like GM to tease and then not produce this color, which is the ONLY color I will buy. Quest did not get my sale for 2004 because they did not make a black one, only smoke gray.
    This will still be one very COOL 2005 Oldsmobile Silhouette when I'm done with it!
  • tamu2002tamu2002 Member Posts: 758
    For a moment I thought I was on the new Ody board, but anyway, where can I find the picture, in the future vehicle section?
  • tamu2002tamu2002 Member Posts: 758
    Never mind, I found it. My first reaction was "Yuck". I hope it looks better in person.
  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    It looked good to me. But I think the van would look even better with a set of Alloy wheels.
  • a_l_hubcapsa_l_hubcaps Member Posts: 518
    samnoe-

    You asked about the model years...The CSVs will be 2005 model year, because they will be available before the end of calendar year 2004. GM is doing the weird model year thing with some of their other new intros, too. For example, there is a 2005 Cavalier, to be replaced by the 2005 Cobalt at the end of the calendar year. I guess they are trying to get themselves back on a normal debut cycle, instead of having all their new models come out in the summer.

    alpha01-

    The Sienna you describe (CE w/safety package) is indeed a great deal. Too bad they seem to be vaporware here in northern NJ. They are theoretically orderable in this region, but my local dealership always has a lot full of XLE AWDs with $34,000 stickers and no CEs at all. I got my mom looking at vans again the other day, and she was not interested in anything that expensive. But at least she liked the Sienna's basic design, whereas her reaction to a 2004 Quest SE was, "$37,000 for this crap?"

    By the way, we have a pretty big GM card rebate built up, so I'll get her to look at the CSVs when they come out. We might end up with one just because of price, though I'd wait to see how they fare in the crash tests before buying, since the current GM vans perform terribly.

    -Andrew L
  • montanafanmontanafan Member Posts: 945
    With my zip code, the Toyota web site will not even let you build the CE 7 w/safety package. I have read that usuallly means that combo is not being shipped (ordered) into the area. And checking dealer sites, have to go north of $28,000 to get the equipment. And someone else has posted that the high end cars are not discounted as much.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    That Honda looks decent, the headlights are *huge* thought. They still didn't hide the sliding tracks, either. But it's decent overall.

    Besides, styling just isn't that important in this class. I don't think any of them look sexy. ;-)

    The local no-haggle dealer has 9 Siennas, 3 are over $35k but all the others are under $30k, and one is even under $25k. You can find them if you look.

    -juice
  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    The strategy with finding the right Sienna is calling all the dealers you know to find the one you want and look on eBay too.
  • dan165dan165 Member Posts: 653
    I've seen some of those base Siennas and Oddys. Nothing like paying US $26K for a vehicle with plastic wheel covers, yak!

    Yes, they are good but haven driven the current GM vans as rentals also, I think the new interior and upgraded mechanicals should be more competitive than some here are implying. I saw the Buick ad and the Terazza looked pretty slick.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    More like $22-23k if you follow the "What did you pay" threads here.

    And at least Honda's wheel covers are bolted on. So they won't fall off when you hit a pot hole, LOL.

    -juice
  • dan165dan165 Member Posts: 653
    I would never buy anything with bolted on plastic wheels. Just cheapens a vehicle IMO. Seems like so many of the Accords, Camrys, Siennas ect I see are made this way to cut price. Of course, it is spun as a "value".
  • spartanmannspartanmann Member Posts: 197
    Virtually every non luxury vehicle made has plastic wheel covers. Alloy wheels are now an option on just about every vehicle. All minivans regardless of manufacturer are made this way. There are hundreds of thousands of Ventures, Malibu's etc... out there with plastic wheel covers. Are they cheap looking "value" spun products as well?
  • tamu2002tamu2002 Member Posts: 758
    Our 02 Malibu has them. Personally I prolly could go without alloy wheels on our next vehicle though, if I have to pay for them as an option. Some bolt-on covers make it pretty hard to tell, and look very slick.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    If you are into customizing, and will get bigger wheels, why not save on the costs up front, since you'll just get rid of the OE alloys anyway?

    Base Accords and Camrys come with pretty small rims, what 14" or so? You can get aftermarket 16" rims without having to pay for 14" alloys you don't want in the first place.

    I bet they also exist for fleets and rental cars, too. Plus the huge bunch of non-enthusiast customers that probably don't even care.

    -juice
  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    are for rental fleets. Every car in the Budget Rent A Car lot that I rented a car from a few days ago had wheelcovers except for a Chevrolet Blazer. And if you want to know what I rented, it was a Buick Rendezvous.
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    are 15 inchers.

    Uplevel models (SE & XLE Camrys and EX Accords) have 16 inch wheels/tires standard, and 17 inch wheels/tires are available on the Accord EX V6 coupe, and will be available/standard on the Camry SE and XLE for 2005, depending on whether you have the 4 or either V6.

    ~alpha
  • dan165dan165 Member Posts: 653
    Ya, I think they look bad on any midsize or larger vehicle. On compacts I understand as people are on a budget, but on a $25K US van, you should get alloys! Just my opinion, I think they make an otherwise nice looking vehicle look cheap and / or rental fleetish (if that's a word).
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Rental fleetish, hee hee, the point sure gets across. I just think some folks don't really care. The Accord LXs they traded in for those vans had them.

    -juice
  • dan165dan165 Member Posts: 653
    I guess a lot of people don't care just like they don't care about painting their house or cutting the lawn. We live in free countries thankfully.
  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    I can understand why someone might buy them on the Accord- they have to. The difference between the LX and the EX is a lot for many consumers so a lot of them settle with the wheelcovers and get the LX.

    Wheelcovers on vans and SUVs do make it look rental fleetish. The Rendezvous I rented clearly looked like something from Budget Rent A Car to anybody off the street, thanks to the dull gray paint and the wheel covers.
  • vanman1vanman1 Member Posts: 1,397
    I agree, alloys are a must on vans. Chrysler does a good job with their plastic covers but you will always see the steel rim under. Yuck!

    Spend a few hundred extra on a vehicle and get something that looks good I always say.

    Anyone know when the new vans are coming? Have not seen anything yet.
  • a_l_hubcapsa_l_hubcaps Member Posts: 518
    "Chrysler does a good job with their plastic covers but you will always see the steel rim under."

    That's actually not true. Have you seen the 2004 Dodge Durango ST and SLT with the silver painted wheels? Those are plastic wheel covers. They look just like alloys because the slots in the cover line up with the slots in the wheel, so no wheel is visible. The Ford Freestar wheel covers are like that too. I wish more companies would adopt this idea.

    -Andrew L
  • tamu2002tamu2002 Member Posts: 758
    Why why why, did GM think families would want to forgo such an important safety feature to save $500 bucks? Beats me. The side curtain AND seat mounted bags should be standard on all minivans, or at least available as options. The curtain protectes the head; and the side bags protect the torso. Kudos to Nissan for making the curtain standard even on the base model. However, it'd be extra nice if they had made the side airbags standard as well. Well, at least you can order those on the Quest. I posted my frustration on another board. Just wondering if anybody on this board has any idea? Is there really not a big enough market for this safety option?
  • samnoesamnoe Member Posts: 731
    "Anyone know when the new vans are coming? Have not seen anything yet."

    According to GM, it will not be before Fall 2004. But as somebody mentioned above, it may not be until end of the year, and GM will even produce some current models for 2005.
  • tamu2002tamu2002 Member Posts: 758
    I posted the following on the Freestar board, but thought it applies to the GM vans too. Let's get some discussions going...

    Personally if we could afford the Sienna, or Quest and Odyssey for that matter, we wouldn't go with the Freestar unless it's close to $10K cheaper comparably equipped. Not to say the Freestar is not a capable van, it's got a few good things going for it such as safety and exterior looks. But the engine power, fuel efficiency and resale value simply are not up to its competitors level. Plus once you add a few necessities (e.g. canopy etc), you're looking at a price in the same range with the imports even after the rebates. That's just not gonna cut it for me.

    Just off the top of my head, I wanna throw out some strategic moves to Ford AND GM AND Chrysler/Dodge:

    1)make radical design changes inside and out to make your vans at least look modern and appealing! Need I say "Quest"? Style sells!

    2)make radical engeering changes too. First, save all of us some trouble--just drop one kick-butt engine with kick-butt power and fuel efficiency (if you have one...if not MAKE one!) into all of your trim models, like Toyota, Honda, and Nissan all do! And while you're at it, drop in a 5-speed auto too. Or be a class leader--use a CVT transmission!

    3)make all airbags(side, canopy, knee, etc), ABS and traction control standard. That takes care of the all important safety. Then make all of the cool features standard such as double power doors, power lifetgate, Stow-n-go or whatever else you wanna call it, adjustable pedals, etc. Leave the DVD and Navigation as options. And this takes care of comfort.

    4)copy Hyundai's warranty!

    Mass production of these extras will lower the cost. A better product will raise the price threshhold that the customers are willing to fork over. Then you set the MSRP somewhere in the middle to make it an irresistable value, and you have a winner! I garrantee you if you do this you'll shut up A LOT of people. And I'll be sure to get in line to check them out.
  • grbeckgrbeck Member Posts: 2,358
    The Quest hasn't been selling all that well, from what I've read.
  • badgerfanbadgerfan Member Posts: 1,565
    Styling sells but not when it is goofy, like the dash styling of the Nissan Quest which is an ergonomic nightmare.

    I still like the DC minivans exterior styling the best of the bunch, and with two wheel base versions and options from strippers to fully loaded, they cover the range of consumer budgets with a single platform with short and stretched versions.

    Making all those features you mention standard would be severely limit any manufacturer's customer base by driving the base model cost upward, just as only offering a stripped down model would do the same.

    Odd that you advocate a kick butt engine, then in nearly the same breath want all the safety features you can buy. The quality of the driver is still the biggest safety issue around, and gobs of available power can conflict with safe operation. No matter what you think, there is still a trade off between power and mpg, especially when that power is used for hard acceleration. Besides, these are minivans, not sports cars! Once you get to a point of adequate acceleration, which nearly all the current vans have when equipped with more than the base engine, you are talking very diminished demand by the vast majority of minivan customers.

    Radical engineering changes bring about potential radical quality/reliablility issues. I'd prefer constant continuous improvement over radical design changes from year to year, with a more major update every 5 years or so. This allows for more resources applied to important features such as improved fuel efficiency, brakes, transmissions, etc, rather than styling related sheet metal redesign. Plus there is tremendous tooling costs for any radical new designs, which again will drive costs of production upward. Nissan is currently fighting the quality issues brought about by rapid introduction of many new models.
  • dan165dan165 Member Posts: 653
    Quest is definitely not selling well and it's laced with issues. Our neighbour has one and he wishes he didn't. Wipers don't work properly, lots of rattles and awkward controls to name a few of the issues.

    Side air bags are on the new GM vans but head curtains are not. A few years ago no one had curtains but I guess GM should try and get them in there. It's an issue but not a big one for most.

    Nobody should follow Hyundai warranties. Hyundai has to have them, the big 6 makes do not. They hurt the bottom line and are not a big selling feature.

    I don't think the new GM vans are any breakthrough, but I think they will be decent and will hold market for them till the all new vans (Lamda?) comes.
  • tamu2002tamu2002 Member Posts: 758
    Maybe GM doesn't need to make all of their vans as unique looking as the Quest. But GM could conceivably design several distinctly looking vans for its Chevy, Pontic and Buick brands that are compatibly with each other mechanically, and gear each brand accroding to its different customer base in terms of engine choice, standard features and all. I don't know if the cost of doing that would be prohibitive.

    A 240 hp with good low end torque and 27 mpg mileage is kick butt enough for me, which is what the imports are already offering. Personally I actually don't think sportiness or the lack of is a big deal for minivans. Like badgerfan said, who is going all out in their minivan. That said, the D/C's 150 something hp and a 3-speed auto transmission is just pathetic. I hope they're not still offering those. I have to disagree with the notion that a high power engine is inherrantly incompatible with safety. It should help in that matter in the event of an emergency, as long as one exercises common sense in daily driving.

    I guess my bottom line is in order to compete with the imports, the big three have to outdo them in every aspect. And that certainy requires something radical.
  • badgerfanbadgerfan Member Posts: 1,565
    I believe the stripper short wheel base Caravan still has the four cylinder engine available (but it is an OHC design) and has a 4 speed automatic.

    I don't fault DC for offering it. It may be underpowered, but still serves a market segment. Anyone who wants more power can easily get the 3.3 or 3.8 V-6's that are adequate. Choice is good in my opinion.

    I'm certainly not defending GM, I have thought their minivans were mediocre and a step behind the competition dating way back to GM's first belated entry into this market, and the new ones are more of the same.
  • tamu2002tamu2002 Member Posts: 758
    Are the new GM vans completely new from ground up?

    The current D/C vans do look decent if a tad conservative to me. Maybe they can style them in a more modern and appealing fasion when it comes to redesign. Vans don't have to look either goofy or antique. They could be radically classy and unique.

    The Quest does seem to suffer from teething problems. But they'll be soon ironed out and Nissan will have a killer product.

    GM owning so many brands certainly has the flexbility to come up distinct vans for distinct customer base in terms of price, style and options. The new vans look essentially the same inside and out for Chevy, Pontic, Buick and Saturn.

    Don't get me wrong. I think all the domestic vans are very decent and will serve most of the folks just fine. But again, the big three will NOT hold their grounds for long if they're just satisfied with adequite vehicles. This applies to their complete line of products. Toyota already outsells Ford and is currently No 2. To compete, you have to OUTCLASS and OUTPERFORM your competitors in every way. Your products have to make your customers fall in love with them at first sight and completely blow them away. Think outside the box GM!
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Thanks for the info, Andy.

    I think perhaps people in vans don't care as much about alloy wheel looks, it's not like you're going to get stares driving along in any minivan...so why try?

    Perhaps GM's secret to success could be quicker or interim updates? Seems like the life cycles last forever.

    -juice
  • hansiennahansienna Member Posts: 2,312
    Many owners are still using their early 90's Astro's as family vans and love the 4.3L V6 that has much greater torque than any other minivan + a large fuel tank for great cruising range.
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