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Subaru XT Turbo Forester

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Comments

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    supercharged (I would imagine includes turbos) engines

    I thought the jury was still deliberating about whether the definition of supercharged (with a belt?) included turbocharged (using the exhaust stream).

    I'd rely on howstuffworks.com, but they flop ads up for SpiralMax and the Tornado when you search for supercharger or turbocharger, so that makes everything on their site suspect! <g>

    It's interesting what that email didn't say; does decreased performance and driveability mean damage to the engine will occur on a regular diet of 87 octane? Or simply that you won't get the performance that you paid for?

    There's some good (non-octane) info in Turbochargers vs. Superchargers: which is better?.

    Steve, Host
  • ace1000ace1000 Member Posts: 151
    For the XT this issue depends upon whether premium gas is required or recommended. If the owners manual says that 87 octane is okay, then the engine won't be damaged by using regular rather than premium. My experience with a turbocharged Volvo for 9 years and 148,000 miles is proof of this, and the XT should do as well or better than the Volvo.

    There will be a small loss of power, probably about 5 HP, and maybe slightly lower mpg. For many people the difference won't be noticeable.

    The $.01 per mile saved by using regular isn't much when compared to the total cost of owning an XT of $.35 to $.40 per mile, but it does pay for new tires, an extended warranty, or future repairs.
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    Well maybe it's just me but from what I've read, it seems clear that a turbocharged engine, which has been tuned to run on the good stuff (91 octane), will suffer a decrease in performance if fed the more pedestrian grades of octane. Equally clear to me is that using said lower grades of octane won't hurt the engine. The basis for the second statement is the certainty that an extremely legal-cautious auto manufacturer would never say it was okay unless they were absolutely certain. Besides, wouldn't the easy road be to just say that premium was required and thereby absolve themselves of any potential liability? I also stick by my previous statement that the caution about superchargers does not include turbos since very few people (including me until a couple of days ago) know that turbos are a type of supercharger (for most of the masses, the term supercharger is generally taken to mean a belt driven device while a turbocharger is exhaust driven).

    I also have owned two turbocharged cars in the past and neither required premium (nor even recommended it for that matter) and both ran fine on regular. Having said that, I don&#146;t own an XT (not yet at least) and if I did, I&#146;m still not certain that I would use less than 91 octane. Were I the type to frequently push the performance limits or if the XT had a high-pressure turbo I&#146;m almost certain that I would not (for those reasons, I would never consider using less than 91 octane in the WRX Sti). However, I&#146;m certainly not going to condemn someone who does use something less than the &#147;recommended&#148; grade.

    -Frank P.
  • fryingbolognafryingbologna Member Posts: 85
    It makes me wince when a discussion that starts as a comment/gripe about a vehicle turns into a veiled/blatant personal attack. Most of us can handle a critique of our vehicle choice, but let's not require anyone to feel they need to save face simply becasue they care enough to post a comment. Sure, it might seem odd to you that an XT buyer complains about their gas mileage, but it only takes a second to put yourself in their shoes and see the validity in their point; of course it would be nice to burn 87 octane, or get slightly better mileage, etc.

    Please know that one of the reasons the Subaru forums are my favourite (and why I am thiiisssss close to getting a new Forester - my fingers are thisss close together!) is the civility of you all, along with high participation rate of Subaru owners.

    Regarding the premium debate, I think that there is a general distrust of much of what we are told by our car manufacturers (MSRP vs Invoice, for example), and this debate is another example of how unclear information breeds feelings of distrust.
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    I think our good neighbor to the north has a valid point. Besides, I suspect we've beaten the octane horse to death. How about getting back to what an awesome vehicle the XT is? Now where was that link to the article talking about the XT hanging with the WRX STi on the track :-)

    -Frank P.
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    Wow, finally a glowing 2004 Subaru Forester XT Review

    The conclusion sums it up nicely: Sport meets utility in the best way in the 2004 Subaru Forester XT.

    -Frank P.
  • subewannabesubewannabe Member Posts: 403
    ann jobs review of the touareg in todays newspaper revealed that , for twice as much money, you get less acceleration , less cargo area and less handling capability than with the forester xt.hmmmm.
       and the darn touareg comes with VW recc. for premium gas in both the V6 and the V8!

    mark
  • lfdallfdal Member Posts: 679
    akasrp - I have not seen said preponderance - my point being that IF it existed it would be unwise to ignore it. :<)

    Larry
  • pinngpinng Member Posts: 10
    The first tank of gas in my MT XT averaged about 20 mpg with 50/50 driving and the second tank averaged about 22 mpg with similar driving conditions. We finally drove the car down to Phoenix and back on almost a full tank of octane 91 gas and it averaged about 25 mpg with about 90% highway driving and the EPA estimates are 18/23? I'm pleasantly surprised to say the least.

    Driving the beast is really a pleasure. I never had to downshift to 4th and in about 10 second, it managed to accelerate from 60 mph to 80 mph driving uphill on I17. If I hadn't let go of the gas, it would have shot up to 120 mpg ;-). But after witnessing a multiple-car crash on the way down which involved one flipped over pickup truck, I knew better how tricky it was to drive on that winding road and not test my luck. Am I glad I've chosen a 4WD!

    My only complains so far are (1) the wind noise and (2) the rather stiff suspension. At 70 mph, the wind noise is so much louder than the engine noise. It feels worse than our 98 Winstar that already has about 90K under its belt and rattles quite a bit from aging. I'd rather listen to the growl of the engine than the wind. When I picked up the car, the tires were at 40 psi. I release the pressure to about 30 psi but the road bumps still radiate rather prominently to my spinal cord. Maybe I'm just not used to the "sporty suspension".

    Pin
  • lfdallfdal Member Posts: 679
    Pin - the suspension is rather stiff, much more so than the wife's OB wagon.

    Regarding wind noise - some of the members have suggested removing the roof cross bars as a step toward isolating the problem. After that the area around the tweeters seems to be a popular place for noise.

    It's also been noted the angle of the windows can be adjusted to mate up better to the seals.

    HTH

    Larry
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    You want to see noise, go drive an Outlander. That thing sounds like a chainsaw without the muffler next to the ultra-quiet Forester. At the very least wait for the more powerful engine coming this fall, the 140hp version can't get out of its own way.

    Subaru says the H6 engine makes 212hp on premium, 208hp with 87 octane. So there you go, you lose 4hp. Thing is, most people don't notice that difference, unless it's a placebo effect.

    I think with a turbo, due to the air being compressed more, you might lose 5-6hp. If 204hp is more than adequate, as long as it does not ping, and of course you are willing to take the risk...

    My beef is not the $150, is my bad experience with a 626 V6. We used the recommended premium for the first few years, and the fuel injection got clogged up at about 57k miles. That had never happened to us with any other car! I had a Ford and went out of my way to use the cheapest gas possible and it never had fuel problems.

    That was just plain frustrating. Use the expensive, premium name-brand stuff and have problems anyway.

    -juice
  • gvmelbrtygvmelbrty Member Posts: 64
    Your fuel injector clogging experience while using premium fuel coincides with this remark in the USA Today article:

    "High-test does have a potential fuel economy benefit. It is slightly denser than lower-octane gas, meaning there's a little more energy in a gallon. But the small difference is hard to measure in real-world use, and that same density can contribute to undesirable buildup of waste products inside the engine."

    This statement was very surprising to me. Like many others, I thought "premium" fuel went through more stages of refinement and being further purified, was therefore a "cleaner" burning fuel. Apparently not.
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    I believe the whole "cleaner burning" premium is just a marketing spin. Octane simply measures the resitance to pre-detonation (knock) for gas. High compression engines (ie. turbos) benefit from being able to cram a lot more air and fuel into the combustion chamber before igniting it with a spark. The detergents in gas are required by law and don't really differ between regular and premium.

    Ken
  • pinngpinng Member Posts: 10
    I'm not sure if someone has already posted this. Anyway, here it is:
    http://autos.msn.com/vip/jedlicka.aspx?make=Subaru&model=Fore- ster

    Pin
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    Thanks for the post Pin. That was a pretty good (although not glowing) review. The reviewer seemed to be fair in his criticism like when he dinged the gas mileage but then noted that the "popular Ford Escape V-6" has an almost identical EPA rating. Too bad he didn't also point out that the XT will blow the doors off said Escape :-)

    -Frank P.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Well, "undesirable buildup of waste products inside the engine" cost me a throttle body service. The engine was choking before, ran fine afterwards.

    The XT will only have a peer when the Saturn Vue Redline arrives, even then it'll only match the automatic XT.

    -juice
  • njswamplandsnjswamplands Member Posts: 1,760
    might match the xt at performance but miss on many saftey measurements....
  • johnb2251johnb2251 Member Posts: 33
    What are the specs on the redline?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    250hp, it's the Honda 3.5l engine, tuned half way between the Pilot and the MDX. Not sure if it'll require premium fuel like the MDX, or regular like the Pilot.

    C&D estimated performance at about 7 seconds to 60 for an automatic. The XT auto should beat that. The 5 speed creams it.

    -juice
  • subkidsubkid Member Posts: 94
    Friend of mine drives WV Jeta 1.8T, with premium required. After 2 years of feeding it premium, at 24 mths. service, he was told (by the service rep) that there is some misfire code in ECU and suggested to switch to regular gas. Driving that way since. Can't tell the difference except in the wallet.

    K
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Well, if you chip a 1.8T, they say high octane becomes are requirement.

    Pretty funny that they told him to switch down, though.

    -juice
  • jrobsonjrobson Member Posts: 10
    Kens - if you want cleaner burning, and for those who live in 'fuel line freezing' country just find yourself a 10% ethanol mixture... there's a good article @ < http://autorepair.about.com/library/weekly/aa102100a.htm >

    My friend has a V6 Ford Escape with 100k, and he's never gotten 22mpg on a highway run. I borrowed it for a 1500 mile trip and averaged 20mpg. .. over the same route my XT got 26 and was driven 'somewhat' faster... ymmv!
  • jrobsonjrobson Member Posts: 10
    Subkid.. After a week of estimates/scheduling finally had a HiddenHitch installed @ Hitch Warehouse... dealer's after market recommendation.
    They installed a Class-2.. 300/3500# as that's all they could hunt-up that fit. It looks good and still was just half the Subaru OEM price!!
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Cool, just keep in mind your capacity is still 200 lbs tongue weight.

    -juice
  • lfdallfdal Member Posts: 679
    Just picked up a case at the parts dept last night. Seems like its sized for the average lawnmower.

    Instinct tells me you'd want something that would hold more oil both for cooling and for filtering.

    Interestingly they recommend a full turn after the gasket makes contact - most are 2/3 to 3/4 max.

    This thing is tiny. But the good news is, since they made them smaller, they cost lots more.

    Larry
  • leo2633leo2633 Member Posts: 589
    "But the good news is, since they made them smaller, they cost lots more."

    Good one, Larry! :-)

    Len
  • corkfishcorkfish Member Posts: 537
    I have $45 worth of Subaru Bucks saved up on my credit card. When it hits $100 I plan on doing the same thing. How much did they charge for the case?
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    Is Purolator making the oil filter for Subaru again? If so, you might be able to get them for a little less at the auto parts store.

    Ken
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Chat starts in 8.5 hours. I hope this isn't too much advance warning!

    Steve, Host
  • f1_roxf1_rox Member Posts: 23
    I'm thinking about going to Redline Synthetics for my 5MT and differentials. Is it feasible? If so when is the best time for me to change? I'm still under 1000 miles.

    Thanks for your input
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    LOL!

    Is Purolator also the OEM for that? What is the wholesale price of the XT oil filter? Try parts@libertysubaru.com for a quote.

    -juice
  • stoner420stoner420 Member Posts: 165
    You should probably wait for 1000 miles, as with the engine oil. I've read a lot of people use Redline in their WRXs and seem to like it. You need to put the GL-5 rated stuff (75w90 usually).
  • corkfishcorkfish Member Posts: 537
    Is Redline better than Amsoil? I've heard that Amsoil is the top of the line.
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    Redline, Royal Purple, Amsoil...I think any of these boutique gear oils will be more than enough for the XT gearbox under daily driving.

    Ken
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Heck, regular ol' dino oil has worked fine for decades. They say some synthetics are too slippery for gear boxes!

    -juice
  • lfdallfdal Member Posts: 679
    Couldn't find an aftermarket cross. These are labelled :
    Tokyo Roki Co, Ltd. LFS706
    Subaru (Fuji Heavy Industries) PN : 15208AA080

    Dealer got me in the mid $70.00's for a 12 pack.

    I might have shopped them some more, but his prices have matched up fairly well overall.

    Also, since I'm buying the parts from the dealer, they don't give me grief about doing my own work.

    Couldn't find the crush washers at Home Depot - 0.67 per at the dealer. The other dealer, closest to me gets $1.25 each.

    HTH
    Larry
  • lfdallfdal Member Posts: 679
    I hate to bring it up, but has anyone got thoughts on what would make a good winter tire for the XT, given the extra torque, etc?

    Larry
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    Larry,

    I'd click that link there to the left for Tire Rack and look through their reviews of various dedicated winter tires. There are quite a few choices for "peformance" winter tires. It's kind of an oxymoron, but there are some winter tires that give up ultimate traction to maintain some high speed stability.

    Ken
  • stoner420stoner420 Member Posts: 165
    I'm kind of thinking the geolandars look like they will be able to hold their own?
  • leo2633leo2633 Member Posts: 589
    For extreme snow traction, try the Bridgestone Blizzaks WS-50s. I have them on a set of steel wheels for my 2001 Forester and they are truly amazing in snow...MUCH better than my old 4WD Montero with Goodyear Wrangler ATs.

    Len
  • lfdallfdal Member Posts: 679
    stoner420 - I made it through last winter with the Geolanders on my 03 XS - I suppose given the winter we had in the North East that says something good about them right there. I've never really thought my Forester handled as well in the snow as the wife's Outback with the factory Bridgestones. In all other conditions, the Forester matched or exceeded her handling (the car's, not the wife's) :<).

    Anyway, given the cost of the the Alloy rims if I mangled them, I bought a set of 16" Forester steel wheels on ebay last year. Of course by the time I atually got them, no one had any snow tires left online, and the locals were taking full advantage of the miserable weather (kind of like buying AC in the middle of a heat wave). So I ended up running the Geo's for the entire season.

    Now I've got the rims and misgivings about the Geo's with a much "torquier" (sp?) drivetrain. So I think I'll try some snows.

    Never did understand putting a traction B tire (the Geo's) on an AWD drive car, unless you're planning on having the AWD make up for deficiences in the tires grip. I am glad they were smart enough to put Temperature A tires on the Forester however. If I had to pick one rating with an A and one with a B I'd go with Trac B, Temp A.

    For stock tires for the Forester tirerack.com only has the Blizzaks, the Dunlop Graspic, a Michelin tire, and some Firestones. There's a much better selection in the Outbacks's sizes.

    Whatever I do its going to be soon - tirerack was out of the Forester sizes in Nov last year.

    Larry
  • cptpltcptplt Member Posts: 1,075
    Blizzaks WS50 are great for most purposes, the Arctic Alpin isn't bad either and better on dry roads than the blizzaks but worse on ice.
    Don't forget the Nokians either, ran them on my Legacy last winter, may give up some ice performance to the Blizzak/Alpin but they are almost as good as the Blizzak LM22 on my WRX in the dry.
    When the summer and winter tres on my minivan dies I am going to get Nokian WRs for them and run them year round. Thats the other thing, you can do that on the Nokians and not the other winter tires!
  • njswamplandsnjswamplands Member Posts: 1,760
    finally got past the magical 1000 miles so it was time to open it up with some foot to the floor acceleration trials. to my dismay i noticed a series of pulsating power loses/surges. i really noticed them in 2nd or 3rd gear cuz i was too afraid to keep the pedal buried by the time 4th rolled around and the thought of my NJ insurance rates taking a huge hit.

    these surges/loses of power were not big but more like i have experienced when a car has a bad plug or not tuned right.

    comments about the power issue are welcomed and not the ones on my lack of guts on powering thru the 100mph numbers...
  • ballisticballistic Member Posts: 1,687
    Swampy,

    Your surges may or may not be what I'm experiencing. For the last few weeks, 1 or 2 seconds following nearly every upshift (after the clutch is fully engaged and while I'm applying normal steady throttle), I'm getting what feels like fluttering from the electronic throttle. It typically lasts for one or three seconds, and it feels exactly as if I'm rapidly applying and releasing the throttle even though I'm not. It's extremely annoying. Is that anything like what you're talking about? It's on my growing list of issues to discuss at my first service visit.
  • njswamplandsnjswamplands Member Posts: 1,760
    my foot is steady ( on floor board ).
    this continues throughout the life of my foot being buried thru each gear, not just 1 or 2 seconds.
    it sometimes feels like the engine is 'flooded' due to the fact than only sometimes when i take my foot a bit off the gas, i then get a surge of power.
    i also get that pause when the initial stomp on the gas when the engine or at seems to be thinking about why i am stomping on the gas at 25 mph, then it figures out the downshift.
  • dcdouglasdcdouglas Member Posts: 28
    Thanks to everyone on this message board for all their efforts to spread helpful information.

    After lurking here for the better part of a year(and occasionally posting), I have finally convinced my better half to put in our order for a silver XT Premium. We're working with our local dealer, Maurice (thanks juice!) to settle the details, but I hope to have the order in by the end of the week. It should be fairly straightforward since my wife qualifies for the VIP treatment through her professional society.

    I've asked that we get a "fresh" car from the factory so it could take a little while to get to us, but I'll keep everyone posted on the progress.

    Does anyone have a good reference for financing?

    Many thanks again,

    --dcdouglas
  • ballisticballistic Member Posts: 1,687
    Swampy,

    I rarely use wide-open-throttle, but on those few times I've done so, I haven't noticed what you're experiencing. The only thing I notice is the half-second or so of lag that's presumably due either to the turbo or perhaps to reaction time in resetting the variable valve timing to the new demand. Once past that initial lag, the acceleration is strong and sustained.

    So, the only aberration I'm experiencing is the throttle flutter lasting a few seconds shortly after each upshift.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Cool, I'm glad my referral helped. Since you're a VIP buyer I don't think he'll pay a referral fee, but who cares. Enjoy your Subie!

    Question for you both: what octane? Jack is still using premium, right?

    -juice
  • njswamplandsnjswamplands Member Posts: 1,760
  • ballisticballistic Member Posts: 1,687
    Feels for all the world like the electronic throttle can't decide what to do for several seconds following each upshift - so it overshoots and undershoots a half-dozen times before it settles.
This discussion has been closed.