Subaru XT Turbo Forester

jimee · December 2003

thanks for the recommendation, ateixeira. Any specific brand of wax you would recommend? Sorry for the multiple posts, I am enter key-challenged today... Jim

lucien2 · December 2003

Had that problem on my 4Runner, too. You've just got some frozen muck stuck to a rim somewhere that is causing it to be out of balance. Bet it will mysteriously solve itself by the end of the day.

p0926 · December 2003

FYI: Those double posts of yours occur when you use your browser's refresh button after posting.

-Frank P.

ateixeira · December 2003

Most wheels nowadays are painted, so whatever wax you like for your paint should work on your rims.

Plus, I just like clean looking rims. I bought a used set from Jim in Texas, from an early 90s Legacy, they are sprakling clean and no slush sticks to them.

Use a good wheel cleaner if you're starting with a mess. Bug and tar remover works too. Getting that brake dust off may be enough all by itself.

-juice

lfdal · December 2003

I bought a set of 16" Forester steel wheels from an 03 Forester on eBay. They fit my 04 XT just fine. I also double checked with SOA regarding the interchange and they agreed it was fine.

It's worth looking at eBay periodically - the only problem is frequently people list rims from the WRX that are not interchangeable with the Forester's - wrong offset.

If you have a number of Subaru dealers in your area it might be worth while asking if they have any "slightly" used rims. That's how mine ended up on eBay - the dealer upgraded an 03 Forester to alloy's.

Also, re: waxing the insides of the rims - we just got 36" inches of snow - Arrrggghhh...... but anyway, the inside of my rims never picked up anything.

Sorry to say the biggest bone head I saw on the road was a boy racer in his WRX - now there's a lad looking for some rims - curbed it at high velocity. Must be a limitation of the AWD that you can't take a corner doing 40 in a blinding snow storm. :<)

HTH

Larry

kens · December 2003

Don't know if this is WTLW, but over at the "other" forum, there's a post talking about how the 5-speed manual on the XT is actually the most robust one in N. America. In other words, it's different from the 5MT used in all other Subaru models. One member who is a tech at a Subaru dealership mentioned that the XT's tranny is closest in design to the STi 5-speed gearset.

Thought that was interesting -- and a sign of things to come!

Ken

once_for_all · December 2003

I see that gleam in your eye, if we wait a year we might get a 275 or 300 hp XT?

John

corkfish · December 2003

300 HP XT? Please don't say that. I just bought mine and don't like the possibility of having to sell it already so that I could buy an STI XT. Just think what this thing could do with the STI drivetrain and the XT 444:1 final drive! Wait a couple of years at least!

jimee · December 2003

Larry, thanks for your help. Called local Subaru dealership who told me the steel wheels that come with the 2004 X model were $123 each, but that they would fit the XT. Ouch!

I am still curious what joyridea4 found on tire rack that would fit, as the good folks at tire rack are still telling me no steel rims for XT! Are they the steel rims @$49/each that they offer for the 2004 X and XS? Tire Rack says they are OE so they should work, right?? Anybody??

rsholland · December 2003

http://www.ajac.ca/

ballistic · December 2003

I hate to argue with experts at TireRack about their own products, but in this case they're wrong. The steel wheel they sell for the 2003-2004 Forester X or XS models will fit the XT equally well, because there are no brake or hub differences that would affect clearances. People are getting around this by simply specifying that their XT is actually an X/XS when ordering these wheels from TireRack.

The steel wheel found in the spare tire compartment of every XT is identical to the steel spare wheel on every 2nd-gen naturally-aspirated Forester. They fit the latter, and of course they fit the former. Likewise, the OEM 5-spoke steel wheels that are standard on the base Forester X fit on an XT perfectly.

Now, if only I could find a good used set, I'd be buying snow tires right about now...

p0926 · December 2003

Bob- Hmmm... you must have been asleep at the helm cause Steve beat you by a whole day with posting that link :-)

-Frank P.

kens · December 2003

Actually, I was thinking more along the lines of all Subaru models getting the enhanced gearset, but a 300HP XT sounds interesting too!

Ken

stever · December 2003

I think Bob was thinking he was posting that AJAC link over in the Infiniti FX35/45 vs VW Touareg vs Porsche Cayenne vs BMW X5 vs Cadillac SRX discussion instead of in here.

Just kidding Bob! ;-)

Steve, Host

leo2633 · December 2003

If not for exhorbitant shipping costs from NJ to WA, you would have had that set of brand new 16" Forester X steelies from me. They had your name on them (I checked!). Alas, they have since found a new home.

Len

leo2633 · December 2003

Forget about the 5 speed. That's already beefy enough. Give us a decent clutch (yeah, I got the upgraded parts, but it took 3 replacements in 80K for Subaru to get it right!).

Finally "judder free" in NJ,

Len

jimee · December 2003

thanks for your help. I went with the new steel rims from tirerack @$49 each - how much cheaper could a good used set be? Will let you know how it works out...

I realize that I am being a bit picky with how the aluminum rims performed in the slush, but I plan to do hours of winter driving in the Tug Hill/Southwestern Adirondacks area of New York State where snow is a near-constant fact of life.

Getting on the ground regularly to wax up the rims on what is widely viewed as a great choice for a winter car just doesn't make me happy!

ballistic · December 2003

I went with the new steel rims from tirerack @$49 each - how much cheaper could a good used set be?

I've seen steel takeoffs from the '03-'04 base Forester X go for $35 each / $140 per set, and that's about what I'd be willing to pay. The problem is that they never seem to be located in Portland, and (as Len noted) the cost to ship four steel wheels from elsewhere can be prohibitive. I haven't priced shipping from TireRack for wheels only, but they want $66 to ship 4 wheels with 4 mounted tires to Portland from Nevada.

Getting on the ground regularly to wax up the rims on what is widely viewed as a great choice for a winter car just doesn't make me happy!

That's understandable, but what would cause the snow buildup problem you mentioned to be any worse on a Forester than on any other vehicle driven in the same conditions? If there is a design flaw causing it that is unique to Subarus, I'm having a hard time figuring out what it would be.

p0926 · December 2003

Jim- Hopefully a decent wax job will last you all winter and of course the ideal time to do it is when you take them off to rotate them (trying to do it while they're still on the vehicle really would be a pain).

-Frank P.

ballistic · December 2003

If not for exhorbitant shipping costs from NJ to WA, you would have had that set of brand new 16" Forester X steelies from me. They had your name on them (I checked!). Alas, they have since found a new home.

Story of my life. Day late, dollar short.

ateixeira · December 2003

Waxed rims stay clean, and snow/slush doesn't stick. They're easier to keep clean once you've waxed them even once.

I've had snow/slush throw several wheels off balance in the past, on different cars. Subaru's wheels are all that different from anyone else's.

-juice

jimee · December 2003

Juice,

This could all be my fault for never having driven a relatively fancy car before, but shimmying has never been a problem for me, and I have driven in wildly varying snow conditions, as I mentioned, for the past 20 years in about 15 different cars throughout upstate NY.

Regardless of the fact that other cars may behave similarly, that doesn't take away from the unfortunate reality that these types of wheels can have problems in the snow unless they are babied, which wasn't mention in my car manual (nor by my salesman or service dept, which I'm sure has heard this one a number of times before).

Seems to me that for $30k or so a pop Subaru could at least give a heads up that this is an issue for those of us intending to use the car as advertised. This issue is topping off a poor dealer car delivery experience for me which is too long/tortured to detail in this forum, so I admit that perhaps that is also coloring my reaction to this problem. But it IS a problem.

Nonetheless, I appreciate everyone's help on this one - I am not sure what I would have done without it!

Jim

ballistic · December 2003

Seriously, I'm still trying to figure out exactly what could be materially different between a Forester wheel and the wheels on any other car that would cause a Forester wheel to build up appreciably more eccentric weight of snow or ice than any other wheel. Every car I've ever driven in snow would do this to one extent or another. I think the shimmy you experienced due to snow buildup probably had more to do with the specific temperatures and road conditions than to any actual shortcoming in Subaru's design that they would be obligated to point out to buyers. It would be the responsibility of a buyer to establish what actual or alleged design defect it was that caused the problem, and that is not common to other vehicles. I can't think of any.

Maybe cars sold in snow country should offer Teflon-coated wheels to help shed the buildup?

I've never waxed a wheel in my life, but there's a first time for everything.

leo2633 · December 2003

Hey, Jack, you may be on to something there! I'd take that option if it was offered (as long as it was more durable than my wife's Silverstone cookware).

Len

ballistic · December 2003

One more favorable reply, and I'm running out to apply for a patent!

lucien2 · December 2003

that Subarus rims are manufactured by a company that also makes rims for Honda, Acura, Toyota, and many others. I understand that you personally have never experienced eccentric weight shimmy due to winter weather before, but I sure have. It isn't likely to happen on a car with steel wheels and/or hubcaps since there are no significant nooks for buildup to start. But almost every car with alloy rims I have ever owned has done this. NOT often, I should add, it is not like it happens every snowstorm, but maybe once or twice over the course of the winter. I don't baby my rims like Juice does, but I do wash them thoroughly and I wax them every autumn.

ateixeira · December 2003

Are you used to bigger vehicles?

Maybe it's the light wheels, and low unsprung weight in general that Subies have, that makes them a little more sensitive to ice/slush accumulation compared to what you are used to.

You probably would not feel it with a live axle, for instance, or any non-indy suspension.

There are spray waxes that are very easy to apply, you could probably just do that after a car wash or even before a snow storm with little effort. Even just hosing the brake dust out should help some.

Look at modern wheel weights - they are tiny. A snow ball certainly weighs more, it's no wonder it can throw a wheel off balance.

-juice

overtime1 · December 2003

Hello all...I've been reading and lurking here for a bit (as well as needling the fellas in the "swanky suv" thread) and the amount of information and good vibes about this vehicle is very impressive. The Big News is that I have clearance from the financial officer (the Mrs.) to proceed with an XT purchase sometime in February. Thats going to be a difficult wait but hopefully I'll make it.

I currently drive a 2000 Passat 1.8T manual station wagon and the wife drives a 2003 MDX (the family hauler...simply marvelous vehicle). My main reason for looking to purchase at this time is my commute has taken a sharp turn for the worse the past year and stop and go is the name of the game...so although I'm not thrilled about it...I'm looking to move to an automatic. I'm happy to hear that all the auto owners seem to be particularly pleased with this engine/tranny combination.

I have test driven the auto/PP twice now and been very impressed. This thing just takes off when you hit the gas. The exterior styling is pretty bland but that is actually a plus in my book. The interior fit and finish isn't quite as good as the Passat but it isn't bad and the leather seats were very comfortable. The moonroof almost makes this thing a convertible ;-). The XT seems to be the perfect blend of quality, performance, fun and utility for my needs (kids, dogs, triathlon gear, bikes, sweaty clothes, snowboards, etc.). All wrapped up in a package that says "responsible family man".

Right now I'm thinking Silver because of the roof rail issue...but we'll see...wife might veto that because the MDX is silver as well. Either way I'm looking forward to being a subie owner in the near future.

overtime

p0926 · December 2003

Jim- No offense but I think you're blowing this issue out of proportion. In almost four years on this forum, I can only remember one or two other posts on the subject. And once it was explained that the shimmying was caused by ice build-up, the poster was satisfied knowing that no permanent damage was done. Additionally, the conditions when it happens are fairly specific. The roads have to be very slushy but with the ambient air temperature below freezing in order for the slush to both be thrown up and stick to the rims. In other words, if it's melting slush, packed or powdery snow, your wheels will stay clean. Also, as has been pointed out, alloy wheels are more susceptible and the bigger the wheel the greater the likelihood of it happening. Just be glad you dont have a set of 18 spinners! :-)

-Frank P.

jimee · December 2003

Frank P.,

Point well taken that I am probably blowing this out of proportion a bit.

The conditions you described are exactly the ones that existed when it happened - problem is, these are fairly common conditions during the winter in parts of the Northeast, especially in February and March as the sun warms. I do realize that this is not causing permanent damage and for that I am thankful. There was some MAJOR wiggling going on, however, at and speeds over 35 mph.

I'm going with the steel rims from TireRack, will wax them up nice nice before having them mounted with the Hakka Qs, and hopefully that will be the end of that (for this season anyway!) Both sets of wheels will be waxed to the max from now on. Never had alloys before, either, so that might explain why I was so perplexed.

I just wish I knew before I bought the car that this would be a precondition to a successful winter season with it; I would have asked the dealer to take care of that upon delivery.

I really think the teflon coating idea is an excellent one.

Thanks again for all of the focus/help on this issue - I am truly impressed by the amount of information/thought all of you have offered.
Jim

ballistic · December 2003

The XT seems to be the perfect blend of quality, performance, fun and utility for my needs (kids, dogs, triathlon gear, bikes, sweaty clothes, snowboards, etc.). All wrapped up in a package that says "responsible family man".

I think you just wrote the neXT commercial! <apologies to Apple>

Well, maybe except for the sweaty clothes part...

joyridea4 · December 2003

Jimee, yes I did purchase a tire and wheel package from tire rack. I never was advised of any problem with the wheels fitting the XT. I told the adviser at tire rack what vehicle it was going on. I got the wheel/Tire package, which included for 16" silver steel wheels, four Graspic DS-1 winter tires, four style 15 wheel covers. The mounting and balance was included in the package price which totalled $484.00 plus shipping.
Tire rack has a ad in Motor Trend magazine which shows tire packages for available for different makes of vehicles. The Forester had a 15" and a 16" packages listed. Three tires available for the package, Blizzak WS-50,Michelin Arctic Alpin and the Graspics DS-1. I choose the Graspics at $65.00 ea. I have had good luck with this tire on my LL Bean outback, and my A4 Quattro.Hope this helps.
Don

ateixeira · December 2003

Interestingly, the topic of slush build-up just came up in a WRX topic. One owner said he has build up in the wheel wells and the springs, not the wheels themselves.

A different person mentioned rally teams spray lithium grease on some parts to keep ice from sticking. Lithium grease is not petroleum-based so it's safe on plastics and rubber.

Grease up your wheels, though, and they'll go black in no time from brake dust. So I would not suggest that.

-juice

joyridea4 · December 2003

Juice, what do you think about using silicone spray on the wheels to help in snow build-up. I currently use it on my snow blower to help in keeping the chute clear. Would this cause any problems with wheels?
Jimee, snow build up on your wheels driving in the tug hill area (snow belt area) will be the least of your problems. I would worry about the snow up to your roof rack more!! I am located South of you in the Ithaca area outside of the snow belt area.

ateixeira · December 2003

If it's not "sticky", I'd use it.

I would not use anything that left a residue and held brake dust and/or any salt or filth close to the wheel finish.

-juice

leo2633 · December 2003

I was thinking the same thing. I also use silicone in my snowblower chute as well as on my shovels. If I recall correctly, it can also be sprayed onto tires to give them a glossy look.

Len

ballistic · December 2003

Three tires available for the package, Blizzak WS-50,Michelin Arctic Alpin and the Graspics DS-1. I choose the Graspics at $65.00 ea.

I wonder why they didn't also include the Winterforce. It's among the wheel/tire packages available on their website. The tire runs about $51 in our size, and it's available studded.

ballistic · December 2003

One owner said he has build up in the wheel wells and the springs, not the wheels themselves.

In an earlier life, I took my '57 VW Beetle (with sawdust-compound snow tire recaps) though a blizzard (well, by Oregon standards) on a ski trip to Mt. Hood. There I was, minding my own business driving along a long, relatively straight road. Comes a turn, and the front wheels won't steer. Damn near left the road before I finally got stopped at the edge of a steep drop. So much frozen crud had accumulated in the front wheelwells that there was just enough clearance for the tires to spin straight-ahead, but none to turn...

I'll take unbalancing buildup on my wheels any day!

joyridea4 · December 2003

Jack, I took another look at the tire Rack ad in my Motor trend. You are right there is a Winter Force tire for the XT size listed.
Don

lfdal · December 2003

I used them in the 36 inches of snow we had over the weekend - drove on everything from ice to slush, to hardpack. A lot of the time I was driving in snow up to the door sills. A lot of steep up and down hill driving. No control issues at all.

For the money I don't think you can beat them.

Infinitely superior to the OEM Geolanders, IMO.

I also put a set on my wife's Outback. So far she likes them better than the Potenza's.

I was looking forward to trying them as they're among the most reasonably priced I could find, purchased at tire rack BTW.

But, after this storm I consider them well tried out so we can go back to the dry, bare ground now.

Larry

overtime1 · December 2003

How easy is it to take the factory roof rack (cross beams) on and off the Forester? How long does it take?

I already have a hitch bike rack I use for our MDX and I'm debating between getting a roof mounted bike mount for the Forester or getting a tow hitch to accept what I have now. I don't really like roof mounted bike racks due to noise but I was thinking of taking off the cross beams anyways. I could just get a roof bike mount, put it on the cross beams and then just remount the cross beams when I need to carry two bikes (with one bike I can just use the storage area).

So...my decision might depend on how involved it is to take on/off the cross beams.

overtime

ugly1 · December 2003

Less than 10 min. Open the clamp at the end of each rail by loosening the torx screw. Open it enough so you can lift the cross bar straight up and off the top. They don't slide off. Be watchful of the rubber pads, they like to fall out. It was the the second thing I did to mine. The first was to disable the daytime running lights. Next I hope someone finds a way to disable the hill-holder. I've gotten used to it except when it sets itself on the smallest of inclines.

ballistic · December 2003

Are yours studded? They're pinned for studs, which is how I plan to buy them.

ballistic · December 2003

There are instructions and photographs on another site, but the rules here prohibit posting a link to it.

The adjustment for the hill holder is found under the windshield washer bottle, which must be removed first. Directly beneath the bottle, there's a cable with an adjustment screw and a locknut. Loosen the lockscrew and turn the adjuster counterclockwise to reduce or eliminate the hill holder's action. Then retighten the locknut and replace the washer bottle.

lfdal · December 2003

Jack - I got mine without studs. Massachusetts has some funny rules regarding studded tires. Of course MA has lots of funny rules in general....

Larry

lucien2 · December 2003

Back in my naive youth....

My trusty 4Runner was driving along fine one day, then all the sudden there was this awful shimmy when slowing from 40mph or so. I mean terrible, like the truck was trying to shake itself apart. Well of course I freaked (I was what, 23 at the time?) and pulled over. I crawled all over it, found nothing. I drove it the next day to my mechanic, and every time I went to slow down, the truck would try to shake itself to pieces. I was sure it was some terrible brake problem.

Back left wheel threw its weights somehow. That's it. End of crisis. Newly balanced wheel, all was well.

lbhaley · December 2003

I had a frustrating experience this weekend. After 2 feet of snow I decided to put snow tires on my 04 XT. I called Tire Rack to place the order. The salesman told me there are no steel wheels for the XT and tried to sell me alloy wheels. I said that there is no difference in the wheels for the entire Forester line. He simply said 'sorry we don't have any wheels for your car'. I hung up. After reading several posts here from others that had a similar experience I decided to try again. I called this morning and said I had a 2004 Forester X. Bingo, no problem. The salesman (not the same one) took my order and it was a much more pleasant experience than I had Saturday. I got the Blizzak WS-50s with 16" steel wheels. I had them on my 98 Forester and they were FANTASTIC. The first time I braked hard on my icy driveway I honestly thought that my ABS had stopped working. It just stopped! I can't wait to put them on my XT. Apparently Tire Rack is out of all wheel covers except style 14. I wanted style 15 but took the 14s. I think they will look better than bare wheels. This is a good example of why this forum is so valuable to XT and Subaru owners in general. Without it I would have believed the salesman that there were no steel wheels for the XT and probably wouldn't have bought snow tires this winter.

I also experienced wheel shimmy last winter with my 98. Snow had packed on the inside of the wheels. I have experienced this several times on other cars so I had a pretty good idea what the problem was. I will certainly wax both sides of my new wheels before I install them.

Does anyone use a torque wrench when installing wheels? If so how may lbs/ft do you use?

atlgaxt · December 2003

Been reading all about snowtires, but they don't make a lot of sense to me as I live in Atlanta. However, I have a place in the north Georgia Mountains (hills to you folks out west), with the hopes of getting up there occasionally when it snows there. Roads around my mountain place are narrow, ashpalt and very steep private roads that are much steeper then what would be allowed on a public road.

In all this talk of snowtires, I have not seen any mention of chains. My thought is that chains might make more sense for my occasional usage (basically to get on or off my mountain) as compared to spending the money to swap the tires, but this is something I know little about.

Any thoughts or comments?

lfdal · December 2003

I think the numbers are 58-72 ft-lbs. I normally set mine to 65 ft-lbs, that way if the torque wrench is a couple of percent off it won't matter.

Tire rack sells a middling torque wrench for short money. I only ever use the one in this range for my wheels, so high precision would be an overkill.

HTH

Larry

bsvoller · December 2003

Lugs - I torque mine to 70lbs on my '01. Don't know if the spec changed with the redesign in '03.

Chains - Really only for the worst of conditions. Max speed is 30 mph, or they'll fail quickly. If they fail, you'll damage stuff unless you notice immediately and stop for a repair. Can tear up your alloys, too.

Snows - We have Kumho KW-11's on our MPV. This is a compromise tire between the Blizzak's and all-seasons. They wear better and handle better than the Blizzak's in the dry, and outperform all-seasons in the snow. On the other hand, Blizzak's will outperform them in the snow, and all-seasons will wear better and handle better in the dry. Might be a good fit for you. Very affordable ($52 ea. mounted and balanced from TireRack).

hth,

-brianV

Subaru XT Turbo Forester

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